Nuclear Proliferation and Shardblades

[Quiver he/him]

Or; why are the Shard and Honorblades confined to Roshar?

Granted, this might just be because we haven't seen them off-world yet... but I can't help but think that Shardblades and Honorblades are sort of obscenly powerful. I mean, sure, if a normal sword hits you in any of the places a Shardblade does, it's going to cause serious damage... but Shardblades have the added bonus of being able to cut through anything, and being very difficult to block.

So... how is it that they don't appear to have left Roshar? Is it possible there are worldhopper shardbearers foating around, and we just haven't seen them yet? Or could it be a case of the various, Cosmere-aware powers agreeing that Shardblades are too destructive to be taken off Roshar (a world which, frankly, even it's inhabitants have written off as somewhat apocalyptic) and imported to worlds which are in less danger. 

[Yata he/him]

We know it's hard for Spren to leave their homeplace...Probably this condition remain when the Spren is "dead".

Maybe you can't actually take the Shardblade too far from Roshar like you probably see in Mistborn: Secret History (and in this case the "subject" was still on Scadrial) and a broken Spren is probably less "flexible" about this thing.

EDIT:
there is something to add...Roshar is a "special place" where Spren may manifest more easly than the rest of Cosmere. This mean that a Spren would need more "physical presence" to remain anchored to the physical realm outside of Roshar... and this may explain also the reason of no Shardplate outside of Roshar.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Yata

[Spoolofwhool]

I assume that you are talking about Rosharan shardblades, ie. Sprenblades (my term) and honorblades and no one taking them. I imagine the reason that honorblades have been kept on Roshar is because they have been well protected by the Stone Shamans, and the others are fairly lost. Regarding sprenblades, there is, of course, the fact that the ruling powers who possesses them keep a close eye on them. However, I have no doubt that a skilled worldhopper could integrate themselves into a society and win one, then manage to escape off-world. I'm not too sure why this hasn't happened, though I imagine that it is as Yata says, where the spren forming the blade is strongly connected to Roshar, and some sort hack would be needed.

Regarding the more general sense, of shardblades being heavily invested magical objects. We have seen a shardblade off-Roshar: Nightblood on Nalthis. There will likely be a point where other shardworlds develop their own shardblades using their own manifestations of investiture. They will all likely share effects of around the same level of power as Rosharan shardblades (though Nightblood is magnitude stronger), though their effects may not all be offensive in nature. Makes me wonder if shardplate could actually be termed as a shardblade under the general definition.

[PallonianFire he/him]

I think it's also very pertinent that Khriss and Nazh are putting out ads in the local Scadrial papers, asking for tools that speak to people.

[18th Shard he/him]

I believe that is in reference to Nightblood.

[PallonianFire he/him]

Possibly. Nightblood, however, cannot change his shape (that we know of), so why would she be asking for "tools?" What craftsman uses a sword as a tool?

[PantsForSquares he/him]

We actually know for a fact that there's a definite lack of accounted Shardblades. Dalinar's Feverstone Keep vision points out that the Blades and Plate at that one site outnumbered the entire Alethi collection (IIRC; I don't have my TWoK copy at hand to double-check) - and we know that the Alethi is the largest publicly-known one. The Shin probably have a several in addition to the Honorblades, but most other societies either have very few, one (like Herdaz) or none (The Unkalaki, for instance).

As for why they're not on other worlds, it's most likely got to do with either the lack of existence of spren on other worlds, or perhaps because they're far too obvious. Until we get more Cosmere-centric works, we can't really find out.

[Jondesu he/him]

You should add that to the list of questions for Brandon (have we seen, or are  there any Sprenblades off Roshar?).

jW

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, PantsForSquares said:

As for why they're not on other worlds, it's most likely got to do with either the lack of existence of spren on other worlds, or perhaps because they're far too obvious. Until we get more Cosmere-centric works, we can't really find out.

I feel like it is mainly an ignorance of the fact that tools of shardblade-level power and investiture can be made. The only shardblades we know of were all descended from the Honorblades in design, which was from Honor. Since none of the other shards seem inclined to demonstrate shardblades, people just haven't tried making them, since they don't know anything on that level is possible. Also, it's probably due to the fact that most worlds aren't as invested as Roshar. 

[PantsForSquares he/him]

57 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I feel like it is mainly an ignorance of the fact that tools of shardblade-level power and investiture can be made. The only shardblades we know of were all descended from the Honorblades in design, which was from Honor. Since none of the other shards seem inclined to demonstrate shardblades, people just haven't tried making them, since they don't know anything on that level is possible. Also, it's probably due to the fact that most worlds aren't as invested as Roshar. 

Not to mention the sheer difficulty of making something on the level of a Shardblade. It speaks volumes about the difficulty when the only people able to replicate a Shardblade are Vasher and Shashara working together: both were Returned, and had an absurd stockpile of Breaths as it were. I don't really feel that Shardweapons are feasible anywhere else but Roshar and Nalthis (and even this requires some Awakening hacking) because of that massive gap in readily-accessible Investiture.

But I was largely referring to the lack of Rosharan Shardblades on other Shardworlds. They might either not function correctly, or you might not want to use one because they're giant swords and they're super obvious.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, PantsForSquares said:

Not to mention the sheer difficulty of making something on the level of a Shardblade. It speaks volumes about the difficulty when the only people able to replicate a Shardblade are Vasher and Shashara working together: both were Returned, and had an absurd stockpile of Breaths as it were. I don't really feel that Shardweapons are feasible anywhere else but Roshar and Nalthis (and even this requires some Awakening hacking) because of that massive gap in readily-accessible Investiture.

I disagree, I think it will be, at some point in the future, feasible to make a shardblade using any of the manifestations of investiture, without using another system's shardblade as a model. I do agree though, that at this point, only Nalthis and Roshar have the resources and knowledge to feasibly do so. If I had to guess, I'd say that Sel would be next-in-line for making a shardblade, though their's would have severe limitations on usage, but have the potential to be quite powerful as a result of the ambient investiture. In any case, I wouldn't call Nightblood an awakening shardblade. It's a shardblade that's a twisted bastardization of knowledge of Rosharan investiture and Nalthis investiture. I think it will be possible to create an entirely different type of shardblade, just using awakening, without modeling it on another system's shardblade, that would be a lot more efficient, though probably less powerful than Nightblood. 

[PantsForSquares he/him]

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

In any case, I wouldn't call Nightblood an awakening shardblade. It's a shardblade that's a twisted bastardization of knowledge of Rosharan investiture and Nalthis investiture. I think it will be possible to create an entirely different type of shardblade, just using awakening, without modeling it on another system's shardblade, that would be a lot more efficient, though probably less powerful than Nightblood. 

Nightblood is basically a prototype made by emulating a Shardblade. Given enough time and resources, I don't doubt that they could have made a closer approximation of a Shardblade (although you'd still run into issues like the one where Nightblood isn't really aware what 'evil' is). Nightblood is flawed, but it's the only weapon we've seen that is explicitly modeled after the Rosharan Shardblade.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

14 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

 In any case, I wouldn't call Nightblood an awakening shardblade.

Relevant WoB

Quote

Question

Can you create a shardblade with Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That’s what Nightblood is.

 

16 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

 I think it will be possible to create an entirely different type of shardblade, just using awakening, without modeling it on another system's shardblade, that would be a lot more efficient, though probably less powerful than Nightblood. 

Semi-Relevant WoB

Quote

Question

If Nightblood were on Roshar would he be a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they are exactly the same thing. He is a Shardblade that is twisted and is a lot more powerful than normal.

While I agree that it could probably be done more efficiently, I am semi-unsure if it would be really a different type.

[Spoolofwhool]

44 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Relevant WoB

 

Semi-Relevant WoB

While I agree that it could probably be done more efficiently, I am semi-unsure if it would be really a different type.

 

1 hour ago, PantsForSquares said:

Nightblood is basically a prototype made by emulating a Shardblade. Given enough time and resources, I don't doubt that they could have made a closer approximation of a Shardblade (although you'd still run into issues like the one where Nightblood isn't really aware what 'evil' is). Nightblood is flawed, but it's the only weapon we've seen that is explicitly modeled after the Rosharan Shardblade.

No, no, no. Nightblood is a shardblade made using awakening. That, there is no doubt and I said so. What my point is that it isn't a shardblade that was fully conceptualized and built using awakening. Rather, it is a shardblade that is conceptualized using sprenblades as a model, simply using breath as a source of investiture and awakening as the method of shaping that investiture. What I was saying in the sections you two quoted is that if you made a heavily invested magical object using just awakening, it would be considered a shardblade as well, but it wouldn't necessarily look anything like a sprenblade or honorblade nor have similar effects of cutting through multiple realms. I'm saying that a true awakening-based shardblade would be a lot more efficient than Nightblood in terms of use, but at the same time, a lot less powerful. Part of the hack that Vasher did to emulate sprenblades resulted in a huge increase in power, with a proportional decrease in efficiency. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

5 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

What my point is that it isn't a shardblade that was fully conceptualized and built using awakening.

It didn't seem as cut and dry in your prior post, so I apologize for the misunderstanding. Personally, I feel that the nature of Awakening allows for enough variance that comparing one to Shardblades would be a bit of an ordeal. Different commands, differing visualizations of the same commands, etc...

I'm also sorry for the time-gap before submitting this post. Got distracted by dinner

[Spoolofwhool]

32 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It didn't seem as cut and dry in your prior post, so I apologize for the misunderstanding. Personally, I feel that the nature of Awakening allows for enough variance that comparing one to Shardblades would be a bit of an ordeal. Different commands, differing visualizations of the same commands, etc...

I'm also sorry for the time-gap before submitting this post. Got distracted by dinner

No problem. Glad it could be cleared up. Question though. What did you mean when you said "the nature of Awakening allows for enough variance that comparing one to Shardblades be a bit of an ordeal."? It sounds like you're saying that using just awakening to make a shardblade would be hard.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

17 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

No problem. Glad it could be cleared up. Question though. What did you mean when you said "the nature of Awakening allows for enough variance that comparing one to Shardblades be a bit of an ordeal."? It sounds like you're saying that using just awakening to make a shardblade would be hard.

I meant that different commands/command visualizations could produce all manner of results which do not necessarily resemble what shardblades in anything other than shape. It stemmed from me wondering what madness could ensue if a Nightblood type-sword had a more positive command.

[Spoolofwhool]

21 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I meant that different commands/command visualizations could produce all manner of results which do not necessarily resemble what shardblades in anything other than shape. It stemmed from me wondering what madness could ensue if a Nightblood type-sword had a more positive command.

The thing is that a shardblade by general definition doesn't need to resemble a shardblade from Roshar in shape or effect. It does not even have to be a sword or weapon. It's been indicated that all it has to be is a heavily invested magical object. If you crammed enough investiture into a stone and shaped the investiture, it could be considered a shardblade. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[PantsForSquares he/him]

A better way of stating it is that because Awakening is so versatile, a Nalthian Shardblade has much more room for variance than a Rosharan Shardblade. Rosharan Shardblades only vary in appearance - but their capacities seem to be similar. A Nalthian Shardblade might not be able to change form, but its design and form would be, to some degree, specified by its creator.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

@Spoolofwhool that definition is gonna screw with me for a while.
@PantsForSquares Yea that's definitely a better way of saying it. Simplicity isn't my strong suit apparently

[Spoolofwhool]

10 minutes ago, PantsForSquares said:

A better way of stating it is that because Awakening is so versatile, a Nalthian Shardblade has much more room for variance than a Rosharan Shardblade. Rosharan Shardblades only vary in appearance - but their capacities seem to be similar. A Nalthian Shardblade might not be able to change form, but its design and form would be, to some degree, specified by its creator.

Fair point, considering, in theory, you could use awaken anything for a shardblade. I wonder if it would be even possible to make a shardblade lifeless.

Edit: Bit of thought into a shardblade lifeless. It sounds really dangerous. Well more dangerous than a hemalurgic construct.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[asterion137 he/him]

Shardblades can remain invisible most of the time, so it's really no surprise we haven't seen one yet.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, asterion137 said:

Shardblades can remain invisible most of the time, so it's really no surprise we haven't seen one yet.

True, but if they were really out there they we would've probably heard some explicit mention of them. I don't think stories of people carry 6 foot magical swords or tons of bodies with burnt eyes and no visible wound could remain hidden that well.

[asterion137 he/him]

18 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

True, but if they were really out there they we would've probably heard some explicit mention of them. I don't think stories of people carry 6 foot magical swords or tons of bodies with burnt eyes and no visible wound could remain hidden that well.

I assume worldhoppers have lots of cool toys to defend themselves with that don't leave tell-tale traces behind.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

I assume worldhoppers have lots of cool toys to defend themselves with that don't leave tell-tale traces behind.

In which case I wonder why they would bother taking a shardblade as well. Seems like a fair assumption that if they took shardblades from Roshar they would use them. That in turn would spawn stories. Since there are no stories or mentions, and they likely, as you say, have methods of defending other than using a shardblade, why bother going through the effort of taking a shardblade in the first place? It wouldn't be easy to get one.