King Elhokar pontieal Knight Radient

[NightFrost]

So i am new to this but did anyone catch in the very last page of chapter 80 in Words of Radiance that the king talks about shadows haunting him in the mirrors. this reminds me of when shallan was first coming into her ability's. Now it might be something else but I think that it bears watching out for. 

[CalaCrisp88]

Yep, that's a pretty common theory. I think a lot of us believe it.

[zmunkz]

Yeah I caught that, definitely think so! People on here seem to have most of it figured out, check out a few of the threads for some really interesting tidbits.

[goody153]

Yeah either he's becoming some sort of radiant who could access the shadesmar(elsecaller, lightweaver, truthseer(?)) or that's an influence of a shard regardless if it's Odium or Cultivation.

[maxal she/her]

12 hours ago, 8giraffe8 said:

Yep, that's a pretty common theory. I think a lot of us believe it.

Not all. I don't believe one second Elhokar is becoming a Radiant.

[Yata he/him]

Well at least I think the Cryptics are making a gamble with Elhokar hoping to influence one of the most powerful man on Roshar with the Nahel Bond (and maybe they are doing the same things with other kings)....I don't think Elhokar would be a great radiant, but He would befenit from the inner-development of a Lightweaver

[goody153]

25 minutes ago, maxal said:

Not all. I don't believe one second Elhokar is becoming a Radiant.

It's not really impossible. He's quite genuine after all just not very competent (easily fooled and sometimes goes overboard), i don't think it's impossible for him. While it's not sure that what he sees are sprens just like Jasnah and Shallan did but it is a similar experience he's mentioned many times. Though it could also just be Odium or another shard or splinters that aren't cryptics or w/e with them leaving everytime Kaladin is around, it could also just be they are leaving since Syl usually around Kaladin and remember that Honorspren and Cryptics aren't exactly friends(not enemies too).

[Retsam]

On 9/10/2016 at 9:52 AM, maxal said:

Not all. I don't believe one second Elhokar is becoming a Radiant.

I don't see why not: certainly he doesn't have the temperament to be, say, a Windrunner; but I don't think all the Radiant Orders really require you to be paragons of virtue.  (And even among the ones with the more "heroic" ideals; I suspect as the series goes on we'll see individuals that find less honorable interpretations of those ideals)  The Cyptic/Honorspren feud and lack of Lightweaver Ideals, (other than the first Ideal) seems to suggest that Lightweavers in particular held to any standard of Honor. 

[maxal she/her]

1 minute ago, Retsam said:

I don't see why not: certainly he doesn't have the temperament to be, say, a Windrunner; but I don't think all the Radiant Orders really require you to be paragons of virtue.  (And even among the ones with the more "heroic" ideals; I suspect as the series goes on we'll see individuals that find less honorable interpretations of those ideals)  The Cyptic/Honorspren feud and lack of Lightweaver Ideals, (other than the first Ideal) seems to suggest that Lightweavers in particular held to any standard of Honor. 

Radiants have not been paragons of virtue so far, but they have all strive to make the world a better place, they have all, in various instances, put others in front of them and it has been about more than just themselves. Elhokar has never been anything else but selfish and demanding. Even when he whines about his lack of leadership, he does it because he yearns for others to revere in under his light, he wants other to bow to him: not once did he ever had a thought about the people he was supposed to rule.

All Radiants have been selfish and self-centered at times, but they have put others before them when it mattered the most. All but Elhokar. Even Shallan's progression has been about her family more than herself. 

If he author wants him to become a Radiant, then he has serious writing to do to convince me he is a good choice. He just doesn't have the right qualities and while he may grow into them, he doesn't have enough of them to warrant a spren to have any interest in him when it comes to Nahel bond.

[Retsam]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

Radiants have not been paragons of virtue so far, but they have all strive to make the world a better place, they have all, in various instances, put others in front of them and it has been about more than just themselves. Elhokar has never been anything else but selfish and demanding. Even when he whines about his lack of leadership, he does it because he yearns for others to revere in under his light, he wants other to bow to him: not once did he ever had a thought about the people he was supposed to rule.

All Radiants have been selfish and self-centered at times, but they have put others before them when it mattered the most. All but Elhokar. Even Shallan's progression has been about her family more than herself. 

If he author wants him to become a Radiant, then he has serious writing to do to convince me he is a good choice. He just doesn't have the right qualities and while he may grow into them, he doesn't have enough of them to warrant a spren to have any interest in him when it comes to Nahel bond.

Sure, the major Knights Radiant we've seen have been good people who generally try to make the world a better place and help others, etc.   But I don't think we've seen anything that says that's a necessary quality for Knights Radiant.  Those are more qualities that are necessary for a good protagonist; but nothing in-universe suggests that all Radiants are like that.  

Knight Radiants are people who are dedicated to various particular ideals; and there are plenty of ideals you can be dedicated to, while still being a generally selfish and unpleasant person; and that's ignoring the very human ability for people to pay lip-service to a particular idea while failing to live it out in practice.  

It seems likely to me that the orders that bond spren that derive from Honor (which includes more than honorspren like Syl) will generally only bond heroic individuals; but the same doesn't seem to be true of the spren that derive from Cultivation: neither Pattern nor Wyndle seem particularly concerned with their partners morality: Wyndle doesn't encourage Lift to go save Gawx as Syl would have, and Pattern seems wholly ignorant of human morality.

---

And, beyond that, sure, Elhokar might still get some character development: I don't think he's fundamentally meant to be seen as a bad person; he's someone whose been molded by his circumstances: put a young kid in charge of an entire country after his dad got killed by an assassin, and... well, you get Elhokar.  Put him in some different circumstances and you may see an entirely different sort of character.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Completely Baseless Theory: Elhokar is in line to becoming a Willshaper (albeit a fairly minor one, but I don't see them logically beating a Desolation with only 10 Radiants) This entire idea is spawned from this quote:

On 9/9/2016 at 7:53 PM, NightFrost said:

the king talks about shadows haunting him in the mirrors

Lightweaver and Elsecaller have Shadesmar access via Transformation, Elsecaller and Willshaper via Transportation. Shallan had shadow-esque things, Jasnah's shadow was affected, perhaps this is something Shadesmar access spren do.

Quote

And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiance, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, 'capricious, frustrating, unreliable,' as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.

—Words of Radiance, chapter 7, page 1

Capricious - given to sudden/uncontrollable changes of mood/behavior: Could start Elhokar's personality changes. There's also how he acted right before and after Kaladin's "Boon incident". Frustrating and unreliable - as taking it for granted that others would agree; those fit Elhokar.

Most varied, inconsistent in temperament - he could get in on the far end of the average Willshaper. You could construe the chasmfiend "incident" as seeking adventure (or that he's an idiot), but I've got little in the way of novelty/oddity

Note: I created this theory about a minute or 2 before I started typing, so it's fairly out there. Tear it apart all you wish

[Argel he/him]

Have an upvote @The One Who Connects! Interesting theory, and also suggests that at least the intent to do good may be enough\, at least for some orders.

 

@maxal:

10 hours ago, maxal said:

Elhokar has never been anything else but selfish and demanding.

I don't recall any POVs for Elhokar, so I do not think we can say for sure. And I do not think he would have opened up to Kaladin if he was as selfish as you claim. How much of how Elhaokar's behavior is because he believe it's expected of him? How much from knowing deep down he's not a good ruler (alcohol comes to mind)? If you want to go with "selfish as in self-pity" then I could go with that one, but that's more of a childish kind of selfishness than e.g. the kind Sadeas exhibited. Hopefully we will get some flashbacks with Elhokar in them showing his early days as king. Has to suck that one day you're in line for the throne and the next, your father is dead and the throne is yours. And other than Navani, probably not too many to protect him with politics at court. Certainly not Dalinar from back then (and even the current Dalinar struggles). Elhokar is a victim of circumstances trying to do the best he can in a role he's probably not cut out for.

Maybe the current crisis will give him a chance to do better. Or maybe he will abdicate the throne, in-effect turning Alethi forces into KR forces. Or if he becomes a KR, then they could brought in that way. Either way, might be useful to have military forces "loyal" to the KRs. Would be worth it just to see how Taravangian freaks out.

Anyway, he could be as you (maxal) says, but without some PoVs, we stuck interpreting things, just like Renarin.

[zmunkz]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

I don't recall any POVs for Elhokar, so I do not think we can say for sure.

Your memory serves you well, and indeed until we get in his head we can't know for sure.

[maxal she/her]

23 hours ago, Retsam said:

Sure, the major Knights Radiant we've seen have been good people who generally try to make the world a better place and help others, etc.   But I don't think we've seen anything that says that's a necessary quality for Knights Radiant.  Those are more qualities that are necessary for a good protagonist; but nothing in-universe suggests that all Radiants are like that.  

Knight Radiants are people who are dedicated to various particular ideals; and there are plenty of ideals you can be dedicated to, while still being a generally selfish and unpleasant person; and that's ignoring the very human ability for people to pay lip-service to a particular idea while failing to live it out in practice.  

It seems likely to me that the orders that bond spren that derive from Honor (which includes more than honorspren like Syl) will generally only bond heroic individuals; but the same doesn't seem to be true of the spren that derive from Cultivation: neither Pattern nor Wyndle seem particularly concerned with their partners morality: Wyndle doesn't encourage Lift to go save Gawx as Syl would have, and Pattern seems wholly ignorant of human morality.

---

And, beyond that, sure, Elhokar might still get some character development: I don't think he's fundamentally meant to be seen as a bad person; he's someone whose been molded by his circumstances: put a young kid in charge of an entire country after his dad got killed by an assassin, and... well, you get Elhokar.  Put him in some different circumstances and you may see an entirely different sort of character.

Of course, it may be you are right and Radiants may be selfish downright plain unlikable individuals. Technically, nothing prevents it, as long as they follow the ideology of their order, but I would prefer, as a reader, if Radiants remained individuals whom we feel deserve their powers. Thus is my issue with Elhokar: he doesn't deserve to be a Radiant. He has done nothing which would set him apart, worst with all the power in the world, he has done not much else.

I will also repeat what I have said in other similar threads, I don't personally feel Elhokar brings a distinctive voice enough to be further develop pass his use as a foil to Dalinar. We already have the protagonist who struggles at being good at what he is supposed to be good in Renarin. Already, the rational to explain how Renarin is even a Radiant is thin: it appears he was chosen merely for being born with a disability. It is hard to feel he has done anything outstanding to deserve it and this is Renarin. When we move to Elhokar, the rational evaporates. I would thus not find it satisfying if he were to become a Radiant. I would rather the sprens had another goal than Nahel bond or perhaps they investigate him, but drop him off. I would find it more interesting than having yet another character being made Radiant based on the mere fact he has presumably been broken in his past. It may be Elhokar is just a petty whiny child

On the sprens, here is an alternate explanation as I do think Wyndle wanted Lift to save Gawx. I think the difference between Wyndle/Pattern and Syl is the first ones would rather their knight figure it out by themselves through personal growth while the later prefers showing the way. Thus it may be Cultivation aligned sprens are dealing more with personal growth, finding oneself as opposed to following a strict code of conduct as Syl imposes. Hence Kaladin's progression (and Dalinar's) have been about obeying to those rules, at all cost: it hasn't been about him growing up or learning much else than just do what you do when it is required for you to do so. Lift has to learn how to care and to act on this care, a much more vague concept.

12 hours ago, Argel said:

Have an upvote @The One Who Connects! Interesting theory, and also suggests that at least the intent to do good may be enough\, at least for some orders.

 

@maxal:

I don't recall any POVs for Elhokar, so I do not think we can say for sure. And I do not think he would have opened up to Kaladin if he was as selfish as you claim. How much of how Elhaokar's behavior is because he believe it's expected of him? How much from knowing deep down he's not a good ruler (alcohol comes to mind)? If you want to go with "selfish as in self-pity" then I could go with that one, but that's more of a childish kind of selfishness than e.g. the kind Sadeas exhibited. Hopefully we will get some flashbacks with Elhokar in them showing his early days as king. Has to suck that one day you're in line for the throne and the next, your father is dead and the throne is yours. And other than Navani, probably not too many to protect him with politics at court. Certainly not Dalinar from back then (and even the current Dalinar struggles). Elhokar is a victim of circumstances trying to do the best he can in a role he's probably not cut out for.

Maybe the current crisis will give him a chance to do better. Or maybe he will abdicate the throne, in-effect turning Alethi forces into KR forces. Or if he becomes a KR, then they could brought in that way. Either way, might be useful to have military forces "loyal" to the KRs. Would be worth it just to see how Taravangian freaks out.

Anyway, he could be as you (maxal) says, but without some PoVs, we stuck interpreting things, just like Renarin.

I agree we are stuck speculating. As I said, I am not keen on reading Elhokar's POV as I don't feel he is a character whom needs to grow much pass his current role. I would however hate if Elhokar ended up yet another victim with no agency which got chosen by a spren merely due to circumstances he couldn't control.

[Argel he/him]

He's a bit of a tragic character though -- thrust into a position he's not really qualified for, likely being manipulated by various highprinces, etc.

[Quiver he/him]

Personally, I have a theory that Elhokar could be positioned as Honors Champion.

Kind of a crazy meta, so, I'll leave it there unless people are interested. 

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

Why would he have to be a good radiant? In one of the visions King Nohadon' laments the fact that not all spren are careful about who they choose for the bond. Maybe such a spren is interested in him. 

[maxal she/her]

On 9/14/2016 at 11:23 AM, Quiver said:

Personally, I have a theory that Elhokar could be positioned as Honors Champion.

Kind of a crazy meta, so, I'll leave it there unless people are interested. 

I'd be curious to hear the reasoning behind your theory. It seems a rather far-fetched one but I am curious nonetheless.

9 hours ago, If.you.die.I.go.stupid said:

Why would he have to be a good radiant? In one of the visions King Nohadon' laments the fact that not all spren are careful about who they choose for the bond. Maybe such a spren is interested in him. 

He doesn't have to be a good Radiant, he also doesn't have to be one at all. Elhokar is a minor character gravitating around more major ones: he can't have much of an arc. From my perspective, Elhokar does not work as a minor KR due to his proximity to the major ones. I also find it more interesting to have a short side arc where sprens were interested in him, but changed their mind. This would bring insight pertaining to the Nahel bond process, shedding light onto how sprens can be initially attracted to someone but see their efforts fall apart if their chosen one does not take the next step. Brandon has said something to this effect once and it would be interesting to read it in the book. For my part, it is more interesting to use the character to explain this mechanism then to have him becoming an Xieme Kholin Radiant for no valid foreseen reason. We already have Renarin who got made a Radiant for unknown, not obvious reasons, we do not need another character following the same trajectory.

Just my two cents anyway.

[Quiver he/him]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I'd be curious to hear the reasoning behind your theory. It seems a rather far-fetched one but I am curious nonetheless.

He doesn't have to be a good Radiant, he also doesn't have to be one at all. Elhokar is a minor character gravitating around more major ones: he can't have much of an arc. From my perspective, Elhokar does not work as a minor KR due to his proximity to the major ones. I also find it more interesting to have a short side arc where sprens were interested in him, but changed their mind. This would bring insight pertaining to the Nahel bond process, shedding light onto how sprens can be initially attracted to someone but see their efforts fall apart if their chosen one does not take the next step. Brandon has said something to this effect once and it would be interesting to read it in the book. For my part, it is more interesting to use the character to explain this mechanism then to have him becoming an Xieme Kholin Radiant for no valid foreseen reason. We already have Renarin who got made a Radiant for unknown, not obvious reasons, we do not need another character following the same trajectory.

Just my two cents anyway.

My Elhokar theory is based mostly on metatheorising, philosophising, and trying to outtwist Brandon.:ph34r:

So, at the moment, it seem's there are three lead candidates for 'Honors Champion'; Kaladin (main character), Dalinar (bonding the Stormfather implicitly ties him with Honor), and Adolin (his duelling skills chekov gun).

And those three are more likely, sure...which is why Elhokar would be so unexpected.

We're introduced to Elhokar in less than flattering terms; in fact, throughout the books, he doesn't make the best impression. He's paranoid; he's needy; he's petty. He doesn't have the strength of personality, the authority or will, to command his subjects loyalties. At the end of WoR he ends up being force fed like a child, after being completely drunk and helpless. He's kind of pathetic.

Which is why he should be Honors Champion. Because the ending of WoR has such a major arc for him; he admitshe is terrible, and he wants to be better.

The question of leadership abounds in the Stormlight Archive. Knight Radiants are leaders of squires; leadership is one of the roles of the Windruners; Dalinar is commanded to lead them. The first book is named for a treatsie on the morals and mores a king should adopt, the way they should act.

I would just find it very satisfying if Elhokars plea to be taught to be better wasn't the alcohol talking; if he has had an epiphany and set's about becoming a better peson. He doesn't have to become a Radiant; he just has to become a proper king, the kind of man who will protect those beneath him, the kind if person who is worthy of respect. If Adolin has the potential to be a better Dalinar, Elhokar should have the potential to be a better Gavilar...and I really like the idea of this character, the source of so much mockery and scorn, whose only action scene so far was to fuel his own ego in a wastefully capricious Greatshell Hunt, becoming the Champion of Honor a very satisfying prospect. Elhokar has already attracted Gloryspren before, for selfish reasons; why not do it again for selfless one?

Kaladin believed his role as leadership of Bring Four means protecting all his men. If Elhokar is a king, what greatest purposefully -what higher Honor?- can he aspire to than to protect all the men beneath his rule all of Alethkar, as their Champion? Alethkar was found as the nation if warrior. Why shouldn't their king be the one to representing that?

(Also, the idea of rereading the series and knowing that one of the great heroes of the books is often so undignified would be kind of fun and interesting, I think.)

Edited September 17, 2016 by Quiver

[Amaror]

I think it's pretty obvious, if not fact, that Elhokar at least has some kind of spren observing him. Whether or not that spren has/will bond him remains to be seen.

I just recently reread both books and the hints of this appeared even in the first book. I can't remember the chapter, but there is one scene were Dalinar is with him at a duel and Elhokar mutters something about "Watching in the mirror, twisting shapes.". It's made pretty apparent in the book that this is were his major character trait, his constant paranoia, comes from. He sees spren in his mirror and thinks they are assassins that are after him. 

I am not 100% sure but my first thought is that the spren are cryptics like Shallans. Elhokar isn't really all that much like Shallan, but Cryptics seem to be less interested in virtues and ideals and more in the fact that the people have some lies about themselves. Something that they don't admit to themselves and push down and their progression through the order happens by admitting who they truly are and what they did.

Elhokar could have that. We don't know enough about him to truly tell at this point.

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

Quote

“And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiants, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, “capricious, frustrating, unreliable,” as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.
—From Words of Radiance, chapter 7, page 1”

This doesn't perfectly describe Elhokar, but it describes him pretty well. His mother uses some of these words to describe him. He is definitely erratic. He loves a good adventure, race or duel. We don't know much about Willshapers but the little I've read, well it seems a decent fit., assuming he ever does bond a spren.

I can see why his temperament makes him appear unfit. I'm not convinced he will bond a spren. I think it was lie spren watching him. They fit the description, and they went awa when Kalidian and Syl came on the scene. Lie spren and honor spren don't get along, so I think they avoided Syl. They probably didn't want the honor spren to know they were watching the king. However, I don't think he is unfit. Kalidian describes himself as a broken man. This could be said of Elhokar to, broken by paranoia, the weight of being in his fathers shadow, and his own ineffectiveness as a leader, but when Kalidian told Syl he couldn't be the hero she wanted because he was a broke man, she told him "they all were, Silly", referring to KR. I'm not sure if this means broken in the since Kalidian meant or if Syl is just saying they were all flawed men/women. Either way it leaves open the possibility of Elhokar. He is selfish and a poor leader, but he tries, and he wants to be better than he is. That may attract a certain kind of spren.

[maxal she/her]

1 minute ago, If.you.die.I.go.stupid said:

This doesn't perfectly describe Elhokar, but it describes him pretty well. His mother uses some of these words to describe him. He is definitely erratic. He loves a good adventure, race or duel. We don't know much about Willshapers but the little I've read, well it seems a decent fit., assuming he ever does bond a spren.

I can see why his temperament makes him appear unfit. I'm not convinced he will bond a spren. I think it was lie spren watching him. They fit the description, and they went awa when Kalidian and Syl came on the scene. Lie spren and honor spren don't get along, so I think they avoided Syl. They probably didn't want the honor spren to know they were watching the king. However, I don't think he is unfit. Kalidian describes himself as a broken man. This could be said of Elhokar to, broken by paranoia, the weight of being in his fathers shadow, and his own ineffectiveness as a leader, but when Kalidian told Syl he couldn't be the hero she wanted because he was a broke man, she told him "they all were, Silly", referring to KR. I'm not sure if this means broken in the since Kalidian meant or if Syl is just saying they were all flawed men/women. Either way it leaves open the possibility of Elhokar. He is selfish and a poor leader, but he tries, and he wants to be better than he is. That may attract a certain kind of spren.

He is selfish. Here is my problem with him. Other Radiants have been self-centered, but none have been selfish. Elhokar has yet to try doing something for someone else than himself. He has yet to yearn to improve himself for the benefit of others and not himself.

Kaladin wants to better protect people so others wouldn't die uselessly.

Shallan wants to craft stronger lies hoping she could make a better truth for those she loves.

Dalinar wants others to follow his ideals so they can learn from their mistakes and form a stronger nation.

Jasnah wants to find the truth so she could warn others of the upcoming Desolation before it is too late.

None of these characters have for motivation personal gain or personal benefit. There is some tied to being a Radiant, but it isn't their motivator. Elhokar wants more power for himself, not for the greater good. So unless he changes this mindset, then I will keep on calling unsuited to be a Radiant. He tries, yes, but he tries so HE could be seen as a strong king, so OTHERS could revere in his light.

Those do not strike me as the thoughts of someone embracing the attributes of resolute and building. It may still happen, but my point has always been it would require a strong focus on him which he is unlikely to get. He'd need a strong change arc where he changes his mindset from what it has previously been. Maybe it can realistically be done with a side arc and without viewpoints, who knows, but I have yet to read it to be convinced.

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

He is selfish. Here is my problem with him. Other Radiants have been self-centered, but none have been selfish. Elhokar has yet to try doing something for someone else than himself. He has yet to yearn to improve himself for the benefit of others and not himself.

Kaladin wants to better protect people so others wouldn't die uselessly.

Shallan wants to craft stronger lies hoping she could make a better truth for those she loves.

Dalinar wants others to follow his ideals so they can learn from their mistakes and form a stronger nation.

Jasnah wants to find the truth so she could warn others of the upcoming Desolation before it is too late.

None of these characters have for motivation personal gain or personal benefit. There is some tied to being a Radiant, but it isn't their motivator. Elhokar wants more power for himself, not for the greater good. So unless he changes this mindset, then I will keep on calling unsuited to be a Radiant. He tries, yes, but he tries so HE could be seen as a strong king, so OTHERS could revere in his light.

Those do not strike me as the thoughts of someone embracing the attributes of resolute and building. It may still happen, but my point has always been it would require a strong focus on him which he is unlikely to get. He'd need a strong change arc where he changes his mindset from what it has previously been. Maybe it can realistically be done with a side arc and without viewpoints, who knows, but I have yet to read it to be convinced.

All good points. I'm not totally sold on his motives though. He is selfish,  but most of that seems to come from insecurity. He could have deeper motivations that we haven't seen. I don't see much evidence for this so far. I also don't recall a POV from him,  so his motives are second hand and inferred. 

I think you pretty well nailed it though. He wants to do what's right, but really he wants to be the one doing it. He won't step aside for someone better. That whole conversation with Kaladian could be an outline for Elhokar's future conflict in the story. Can he accept his limits or learn to overcome them,  will he ever put what is best above his desire to be the hero and leader his father was? I really think he needs to speak a truth "I'm not the man my father was." I don't think it has anything to do with a bond. He needs that truth to progress as a character and discover what kind of man he can be. If he can do that, I think a bond is possible. I don't think the spren watching him want a bond with him. Something else is going on. 

[Amaror]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

He is selfish. Here is my problem with him. Other Radiants have been self-centered, but none have been selfish. Elhokar has yet to try doing something for someone else than himself. He has yet to yearn to improve himself for the benefit of others and not himself.

Kaladin wants to better protect people so others wouldn't die uselessly.

Shallan wants to craft stronger lies hoping she could make a better truth for those she loves.

Dalinar wants others to follow his ideals so they can learn from their mistakes and form a stronger nation.

Jasnah wants to find the truth so she could warn others of the upcoming Desolation before it is too late.

None of these characters have for motivation personal gain or personal benefit. There is some tied to being a Radiant, but it isn't their motivator. Elhokar wants more power for himself, not for the greater good. So unless he changes this mindset, then I will keep on calling unsuited to be a Radiant. He tries, yes, but he tries so HE could be seen as a strong king, so OTHERS could revere in his light.

Those do not strike me as the thoughts of someone embracing the attributes of resolute and building. It may still happen, but my point has always been it would require a strong focus on him which he is unlikely to get. He'd need a strong change arc where he changes his mindset from what it has previously been. Maybe it can realistically be done with a side arc and without viewpoints, who knows, but I have yet to read it to be convinced.

The thing is: We don't know why he wants to be a strong king. We just have very little to go on about his motives. His motivation for being a strong king COULD be solely based on the desire for power. Or it could be due to the desire to create a good, strong kingdom for his subjects and vassals. 

I think it's in between. I think he wants to be a strong king because his father was. He wants to be a strong, powerfull leader in war and a clever politian in court. He wants to continue what his father started, which was also meant to make a strong kingdom. But he's not his father. I think at this point we just don't know enough about Elhokar to make a good judgement about his intentions. 

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

27 minutes ago, Amaror said:

The thing is: We don't know why he wants to be a strong king. We just have very little to go on about his motives. His motivation for being a strong king COULD be solely based on the desire for power. Or it could be due to the desire to create a good, strong kingdom for his subjects and vassals. 

I think it's in between. I think he wants to be a strong king because his father was. He wants to be a strong, powerfull leader in war and a clever politian in court. He wants to continue what his father started, which was also meant to make a strong kingdom. But he's not his father. I think at this point we just don't know enough about Elhokar to make a good judgement about his intentions. 

True, but we know enough to see his struggle to be like his father. Most people have multiple motives.  We aren't seeing all of his,  only what other characters notice. That said,  sometimes other people's view of a person is more accurate than their own view of themselves.  I'd say there are hints he could be better than people think, but only hints. It could go either way.