The Author of the Diagram

[Krandacth]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

He knows the Shin well enough to fluently speak their language, and farming is one of the highest ranking roles in Shin society (warriors being the lowest). There's no way he knows that much about the Shin without picking up some of that knowledge.

It could still be a hint, but I do not understand why everyone thinks Taravangian is a simplton. That's the act he puts on for the rest of Roshar, but we know from the books and know he has a scholarly streak. It's not an accident his kingdom has the best medical system, the best library, etc.

"Not familiar" may have been a bit strong on my part, but his city-kingdom doesn't have any farmland to speak of, so there is no reason for him to have become *so* familiar with it that his inner monologue would use such terms, rather than e.g. "patching and adjusting," which might fit the healer/logical man he is usually characterised to be.

It was a question of characterisation, not capacity. I have never thought of Taravangian as a simpleton (even when he is supposed to be simple, he shows advanced emotional intelligence).

[Garglemesh he/him]

Ok, this may sound silly, but what if from the beginning Honor and Cultivation were cultivating honor among the inhabitants of Roshar? Now that Honor is dead, Cultivation is playing into Odium's hands. He knows people don't need his help. Now she's cultivating hate instead of honor. What choice does she have? She must cultivate. So you're left with a world which has become increasingly distrustful of each other. Maybe the Diagram is her way of trying to continue the "pruning" process under the new circumstances the Everstorm presents. In fact, maybe she brought the Everstorm. Who knows. 

[VirtuousTraveller]

30 minutes ago, Garglemesh said:

Ok, this may sound silly, but what if from the beginning Honor and Cultivation were cultivating honor among the inhabitants of Roshar? Now that Honor is dead, Cultivation is playing into Odium's hands. He knows people don't need his help. Now she's cultivating hate instead of honor. What choice does she have? She must cultivate. So you're left with a world which has become increasingly distrustful of each other. Maybe the Diagram is her way of trying to continue the "pruning" process under the new circumstances the Everstorm presents. In fact, maybe she brought the Everstorm. Who knows. 

I've thought about this too.  We assume that Cultivation is somehow inherently "good" because of Honor's opposition to Odium and Cultivation was supposedly romantically involved with Honor.  In the perhaps growing absence of honor among men (consider that breaking the Oathpact wasn't exactly honorable by the Heralds), Cultivation may be supporting the growth of her former enemy, just by the nature of her shard's intent.

Upvote for you! =)

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

Mind = Blown.

Cultivation...Evil?  That's a troubling thought.  That would mean that all that stands between humanity and certain doom would be whatever plans Tanavast set into motion before his death...which would suck because he openly admitted that Cultivation was better at predicting the future than he was...lol.  Preservation bested Ruin like that, but it seriously came down to the wire...and I got the impression that, as far as shards go, Ruin wasn't really that clever; IIRC, I believe he even lets vital information about his plans slip (ultimately contributing to his downfall) while gloating to Vin about how awesome and unstoppable he is.

I definitely agree that Cultivation could be much more neutral or much more of a negative force in this confrontation than we usually assume; I admit, the thought never really seriously crossed my mind.  Heck, after Tanavast's death she may have just decided she doesn't care anymore.

[Krandacth]

On ‎09‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 3:17 PM, goody153 said:

 I would still really consider that this Diagram even if it's of Cultivation it may still be influenced by Odium since when the first time Kaladin and Szeth met it was titled "The one who hates"(which most likely means Odium also with Syl commenting about "Him" watching or influencing that event) and remember that was under the orders of Taravingan which he followed from the Diagram.

I'd like to return to this point (and the related, more recent posts less directly) because of a line of reasoning in another recent thread, linked below.

I think that the Diagram's *original* source being cultivation can be true as well as it being influenced by Odium: Taravangian notes in his interlude that their primary means of maintaining the Diagram is via death rattles. Where do these come from? Moelach, a splinter of Odium. Hence the Diagram in its current state has been influenced by Odium, regardless of whether he influenced its "first draft".

[goody153]

12 hours ago, Krandacth said:

I'd like to return to this point (and the related, more recent posts less directly) because of a line of reasoning in another recent thread, linked below.

I think that the Diagram's *original* source being cultivation can be true as well as it being influenced by Odium: Taravangian notes in his interlude that their primary means of maintaining the Diagram is via death rattles. Where do these come from? Moelach, a splinter of Odium. Hence the Diagram in its current state has been influenced by Odium, regardless of whether he influenced its "first draft".

Yeah . I mean this happened with Mistborn(trilogy)

Spoiler

with the Ruin falsifying the texts that Preservation setup about the hero of ages though Ruin's way is much more direct and blunt

so i guess it's not unreasonable. Wouldn't be surprised it's Odium, he seems like the cleverest Shard around.

[Yata he/him]

11 minutes ago, goody153 said:

so i guess it's not unreasonable. Wouldn't be surprised it's Odium, he seems like the cleverest Shard around.

Quote

BLIGHTSONG

Can Odium change written word on Roshar like Ruin could on Scadrial? (I was wondering this because it would make it easy for him to manipulate Mr.T that way.

BRANDON SANDERSON

*apprehensive* This is not really a thing that Odium does. Um, yea

 

[goody153]

@Yata I know about that WoB. I wasn't referring to what Ruin is specifically doing(i think you need to have the same exact situation with Ruin in order to achieve that) but more about another shard messing with another shards creation or device like this another mistborn example 

Spoiler

with Ruin encouragingthe mist which was practically the body of preservation to do it's thing and snap people in a way to trick people into sending the hero to free him(which was averted by Rashek)

i don't think Odium is beneath doing stuff like that.

[Krandacth]

@Yata We aren't suggesting that he changed the text directly, rather that Moelach's influence in the Diagram, given by Taravangian using the death rattles as a means to augment it, is a reflection of Odium's intent. Therefore Odium has influenced the Diagram indirectly. I'm not even really suggesting that it is part of Odium's master plan to influence the Diagram; it could easily be Moelach's own idea to do so, but as it is a splinter of Odium its influence is still likely to reflect His Intent.

(ninja'd by @goody153)

In fact, the idea that he is just throwing out creepy hints that happen to be phrased in misleading way, then letting Taravangian choose to use them or not, is very much in keeping with the approach that Tanavast attributed to him in the Visions: Letting humanity on Roshar destroy itself.

 

Edited September 25, 2016 by Krandacth
Another thought

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I'm thinking back when Tanavast was still alive, Cultivation allowed him to take the lead in the fight against Odium. Now that he's dead, I think whilst she doesn't care much for humanity, she still has a major bone/Splinter (haha) to pick with Odium. I wonder if she's orchestrating Odium's release to try take him out, futuresight is one of her top skills after all