What happens if Odium is defeated?

[Argel he/him]

It could be how powerful you are. A sharholder may be able to pick up another shard regardless of intent while someone closer to mundane needs more help to pull it off.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Argel

[+Child of Hodor]

In my mind "defeating" Odium in the first 5 books is repelling his "Final Desolation" and neutralizing him as a direct threat to Roshar. It feels like there is too much that has to happen in the next 3 books to both piece Honor back together and kill Rayse.

As Jasnah and Hoid discuss in the WoR epilogue this desolation is not happening the way the other desolations did. As Kalak told Jezrien in the prelude to the SA “He will not remain bound by this. The enemy. He will find a way around it. You know he will.” The Everstorm is something new that needs to be dealt with now.

Maybe they can find the Dawnshard that binds any creature voidish or mortal and force Odium to choose a champion and if Odium's champion loses Odium and his forces must leave Roshar and never return.http://coppermind.net/wiki/Dawnshard The Dawnshard would presumably force Odium to stay true to this. Then Roshar is safe from Odium's (direct) threat.

First 5: Dealing with Odium's invasion

Back 5: Piecing Honor back together? Getting to know Cultivation more?

 

[+Child of Hodor]

On 9/1/2016 at 4:46 PM, Naurock said:

This and with how well Brandon writes his villians, Odium will seem crazy likeable and probably extremely persuasive.

@bleeder@nervousnerd@jofwu

I imagine Rayse pre-ascension will be like Mistborn Spoilers:

 

Kelsier if Kelsier couldn't let go of his hatred. Kelsier was plotting the genocide of the ruling class until he was talked of it and decided to give them a chance.

What Hoid says about pre-ascension Rayse could describe Kelsier. " Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met." http://coppermind.net/wiki/Letters#The_First_Letter Kelsier spent most of his life as a scumbag con-artist / thief crew leader. Then he underwent some extreme circumstances and became a revolutionary. Even after he found a purpose in life he seemed to enjoy brutally killing noble house guards a little too much.

Perhaps Rayse had a similar personality, endured injustices and led a revolution against Adonalsium, but when it was over he didn't want to forget/forgive those injustices. Didn't want to forget his hatred of others for what they have done. Maybe he didn't want to ever be in a position of weakness where injustices could be done to him again. So he took up Odium.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Child of Hodor
Spelling

[1stBondsmith he/him]

"If Odium is defeated" seems to carry a lot of baggage with the word defeated. Remember, power is not destroyed, even in the Cosmere. So we can only assume that replaced would not be defeated, combined would be bad at best, but contained seems to have only a limited timeline (see the Oatpact and the Heralds). So that leaves three more options: make him leave a system and call a local victory (for us, the Cosmere Elite, this would be very unsatisfying); get him to use his intent in collaboration with other shards (wow! this starts some weird brain cannons); or possibly a recombination to a balanced Adonasium state. I have always assumed this is Hoid's ultimate motive. We have no clue to how it would be done yet, but the story of the shattering would shed some bright light on that. If it is the final, what good is the Champion mentioned in WoK? There is more to this than just turning over territory. Honor trapped Odium, but had to trust to the heralds and the honor of future people to sustain the trap. Do we even want the trap again?

[soyperson]

1 minute ago, 1stBondsmith said:

"If Odium is defeated" seems to carry a lot of baggage with the word defeated. Remember, power is not destroyed, even in the Cosmere. So we can only assume that replaced would not be defeated, combined would be bad at best, but contained seems to have only a limited timeline (see the Oatpact and the Heralds). So that leaves three more options: make him leave a system and call a local victory (for us, the Cosmere Elite, this would be very unsatisfying); get him to use his intent in collaboration with other shards (wow! this starts some weird brain cannons); or possibly a recombination to a balanced Adonasium state. I have always assumed this is Hoid's ultimate motive. We have no clue to how it would be done yet, but the story of the shattering would shed some bright light on that. If it is the final, what good is the Champion mentioned in WoK? There is more to this than just turning over territory. Honor trapped Odium, but had to trust to the heralds and the honor of future people to sustain the trap. Do we even want the trap again?

Or kill (Splinter?) him, as he did to many others?

[1stBondsmith he/him]

I think there is more planned for the power of splintered shards than we have access to yet (other than the hints about the DOR yearning to escape and be used). I think splintering may be able to be undone, or massively combined to draw on the powers. (Elantris as a focus still works, and huge powers can still be activated the old way). But the splintered shard cannot have a mind to control its use. At least not all of it. Would it take a massive group effort to refocus the DOR on a single entity to recombine a shard? Could that ever be coordinated and pulled off? Could someone create enough connection to draw in a splintered shard and not just one that is in tact, but not tied to a person? (like dead Ruin or Preservation). I think all this is fodder for asking the IRE, or a combination of other shards (Harmony?). Either way, a recombined shard seems possible. Could this be done piecemeal (gibbletish)?

Edited September 7, 2016 by 1stBondsmith
Spelling

[soyperson]

25 minutes ago, Ernei said:

The vessel can interpret the Intent, so for instance a very lawful person could interpret Odium as "hatred toward lawlessness", because, well, perhaps they hate crime.

So... Miles, and the Skybreakers? Particularly Nale/Nin/Darkness?

[soyperson]

1 minute ago, Ernei said:

Yes, I suppose so. Not sure about the Nale/Nin/Darkness part, where did it come from?

He is very law-abiding and hates lawlessness. He had to fill out the correct paperwork to attempt killing Lift.

[Sand Master]

Hasn't it been determined though, that eventually the Intent overpowers the Vessel with time? It even says in the Letter that Ati was kind and generous, but when under the influence of Ruin he pretty much went crazy and started destroying everything he could. I think that if anyone were to take up Odium, they would likely experience something very similar to Ati with Ruin.

[Djarskublar he/him]

6 hours ago, Sand Master said:

Hasn't it been determined though, that eventually the Intent overpowers the Vessel with time? It even says in the Letter that Ati was kind and generous, but when under the influence of Ruin he pretty much went crazy and started destroying everything he could. I think that if anyone were to take up Odium, they would likely experience something very similar to Ati with Ruin.

Ah, but if you let the Intent go as far as you are willing and no farther, then perhaps you could resist it. If you directly oppose it, then it will break you. If you focus it and channel it into constructive purposes, then you could at least last a lot longer.

Also, I think Sazed and Kel holding the Shards were really both special cases. Kel didn't have a physical form, and Sazed was threatened to get torn apart by the opposing powers. Sazed needed to be balanced between them so he could meld them.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

8 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Ah, but if you let the Intent go as far as you are willing and no farther, then perhaps you could resist it. If you directly oppose it, then it will break you. If you focus it and channel it into constructive purposes, then you could at least last a lot longer.

I like this interpretation, though I have heard something slightly similar before. I personally don't think they are that contradictory, so here it is:

Quote

The Intent overpowers the holder as it warps them to its Intent. The possibility this word presents is that you can retain some aspect of your own mind/control if you better fit the intent. It has less that it needs to warp, so your mind is less changed.

I disagree with the idea that you can resist Shardic Intent for very long, but there has to be a point where you no longer have to. Once it has finished warping you to the Intent, you and it should no longer be resisting each other right? It just seems logical that the less a Shard needs to change something, the less it will change.

[Sand Master]

Right, so if you are already full of hate, then Odium won't do much to you.
But if you only hate certain things (like lawlessness), I doubt that would be enough. The Shardic Intent isn't a sentient entity, so it's not like it's something you can trick. Odium's Intent is just pure divine hatred. If there was anything the Vessel didn't hate, I feel like that would quickly change.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Sand Master

[goody153]

4 hours ago, Sand Master said:

Right, so if you are already full of hate, then Odium won't do much to you.
But if you only hate certain things (like lawlessness), I doubt that would be enough. The Shardic Intent isn't a sentient entity, so it's not like it's something you can trick. Odium's Intent is just pure divine hatred. If there was anything the Vessel didn't hate, I feel like that would quickly change.

I think if your personality already matches the given intent of the shard i feel like it should give the individual more freedom in using the shards power compared to somebody who doesn't match the shards intent but pikcs up the shard. 

[Patrick Star]

I'm still somewhat thinking that Nightblood's going to eat odium, or maybe just part of him.

I do NOT want to see what that would create, though 

[Sand Master]

1 hour ago, Patrick Star said:

I'm still somewhat thinking that Nightblood's going to eat odium, or maybe just part of him.

I do NOT want to see what that would create, though 

Do we know if this is even possible? And if it is, would Nightblood consume the Intent along with the Investiture? If it was just the Investiture and not the Intent then that might be a viable way of getting rid of Odium.

[Patrick Star]

8 hours ago, Sand Master said:

Do we know if this is even possible? And if it is, would Nightblood consume the Intent along with the Investiture? If it was just the Investiture and not the Intent then that might be a viable way of getting rid of Odium.

I'm just assuming it is, since absorbing investiture seems to be Nightblood's thing.

This may be a good Brandon question, but he'd probably just troll us with his answer 

[soyperson]

1 hour ago, Patrick Star said:

I'm just assuming it is, since absorbing investiture seems to be Nightblood's thing.

This may be a good Brandon question, but he'd probably just troll us with his answer 

Us: "Would Nightblood consume the Intent along with the Investiture?"

Brandon (Probably): "RAFO!" or "Good question, you'll have to wait and see!" or something equally infuriating/cryptic

[Patrick Star]

41 minutes ago, bleeder said:

Us: "Would Nightblood consume the Intent along with the Investiture?"

Brandon (Probably): "RAFO!" or "Good question, you'll have to wait and see!" or something equally infuriating/cryptic

We have to butter Brandon up first.  Rather than directly ask, we first need to throw out a joke question to disguise our intentions, then hope he slips up on the follow up.

So maybe ask "what would odium taste like if Nightblood tried to eat some of him?"

My vote is on something spicy

 

[Krandacth]

If Nightblood were influenced by the intent of a Shard from which the Investiture it consumes was derived, and (Warbreaker spoiler)

Spoiler

it consumed a few legions' worth of Breath during the Manywar, as per Lightsong's interpretation of the red painting,

shouldn't it be a lot more generous by now?

[Patrick Star]

1 hour ago, Krandacth said:

If Nightblood were influenced by the intent of a Shard from which the Investiture it consumes was derived, and (Warbreaker spoiler)

  Hide contents

it consumed a few legions' worth of Breath during the Manywar, as per Lightsong's interpretation of the red painting,

shouldn't it be a lot more generous by now?

He's pretty generous.  He just gives people death instead of other gifts.