What happens if Odium is defeated?

[Naurock]

So there's been a lot of speculation here about how the Radiants could defeat Odium, naming a champion and all. But what happens if the humans win? Would that cause Odium to die and then shatter on Roshar? What would happen if Odium had his power/intent added to Roshar? Would they become a totally warring world, nonstop? Or would someone have to pick up his shard and take it elsewhere since he hasn't invested there?

Could Cultivation pick up Honor and Hatred's shard pieces and form a new intent?

[soyperson]

I'm fairly certain that an already-Shardholding person cannot pick up another.

Spoiler

Sazed is no exception, as he picked up both Ruin and Preservation at the same time to become Harmony.

 

[Yata he/him]

Actually we know that Rayse chosed to not pick up the Shard he killed to avoid some Intent-Shift. He fits to well with the Odium Shard. But nothing prevent him (for information we have) for picking another Shard if he wants

Edited September 1, 2016 by Yata

[soyperson]

2 minutes ago, Yata said:

Actually we know that Rayse chosed to not pick up the Shard he killed to avoid some Intent-Shift. He fits to well with the Odium Shard. But nothing prevent him (for information we have) for picking another Shard if he wants

I was mistaken, then.

Thanks for clarifying!

[Jofwu he/him]

12 minutes ago, Yata said:

Actually we know that Rayse chosed to not pick up the Shard he killed to avoid some Intent-Shift.

Yeah, someone just posted this quote in another thread I was reading... I'll bold the relevant bits:

Quote

AUTARCHK (MARCH 2013)

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

 

[Sand Master]

35 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

This is interesting to me. I hadn't really known this before, but reading it now makes me feel like Odium is afraid of other Shards. Generally the super-villains don't really fear much, and they're extremely arrogant. Ruin is a good example of this. But Odium seems to, if not fear the other Shards, at least be aware that he's not all-powerful and that he might be "overwhelmed" by one. I wonder if this fear is part of what fuels his hatred?

[Jofwu he/him]

Well you know what they say... Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to odium. Odium leads to suffering.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

2 hours ago, Naurock said:

Could Cultivation pick up Honor and Hatred's shard pieces and form a new intent?

Would anyone want this? Odium is bad enough by himself, but combine that with the mobility to cultivate hatred in others over a long period of time. Cultivation is also supposed to be really good at seeing the future. This is absolutely terrifying. 

[soyperson]

For an answer, @Naurock, if Odium is defeated, all would be well in the cosmere. 

(For once.)

Edited September 1, 2016 by bleeder

[nervousnerd he/him]

51 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Would anyone want this? Odium is bad enough by himself, but combine that with the mobility to cultivate hatred in others over a long period of time. Cultivation is also supposed to be really good at seeing the future. This is absolutely terrifying. 

Why Odium is a problem is that he is gods hatred without any of the other intents tied to it.

Quote

He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

If Odium were tied to other Shards, it would dilute the hatred and possibly only allow it to come out at necessary times. Depends on the Shard.

Edited September 1, 2016 by nervousnerd

[Oversleep]

4 hours ago, Naurock said:

But what happens if the humans win? Would that cause Odium to die and then shatter on Roshar?

I doubt it - see, everytime humanity won, Desolation ended. And when Heralds cracked again (that's probably the cause), another one would start anyway. Ending a Desolation does not mean ultimate victory, it only means the enemy is pushed back for a time.
Simple victory of humanity would mean they'd get to survive as a species. If they lost, hovewer... it would mean extinction of humanity and thrive of Voidbringers. It seems to be Odium's goal. Perhaps it would somehow let him deInvest or maybe destroy Cultivation or whatever.

[Naurock]

2 hours ago, Sand Master said:

This is interesting to me. I hadn't really known this before, but reading it now makes me feel like Odium is afraid of other Shards. Generally the super-villains don't really fear much, and they're extremely arrogant. Ruin is a good example of this. But Odium seems to, if not fear the other Shards, at least be aware that he's not all-powerful and that he might be "overwhelmed" by one. I wonder if this fear is part of what fuels his hatred?

This and with how well Brandon writes his villians, Odium will seem crazy likeable and probably extremely persuasive.

@bleeder Maybe the Cosmere will, but not on Roshar. If his force was shattered and left there for his intent and Investiture to take hold Roshar would be even more uninhabitable and crazy. Roshar won't be decent until Odium is repelled and barred away or Adonalsium is reformed.

@nervousnerd Thank you for covering that with @jofwu's WoB.

[+hwiles He/Him]

If anyone new picks up Odium's shard...they'd probably just turn into a new, slightly less effective Rayse and then have to be killed.  Hatred is a pretty objectively bad Intent, I don't think it could really ever get along with the other Shards, by very definition.

That said, it could be splintered and tied up throughout Greater Roshar to keep its effects pretty negligible...Though, if Cultivation picked up Odium's shard (and what the heck, Honor's too for fun), we might get an army of Radiants who can both surgebind, voidbind, and be mind-controlled by their god in a pinch.  ("~Inarticulate screams~ CULTIVATION SMASH PUNY SHARDWORLDS!")  All I have to say, is, "Look out Scadrial!"

[soyperson]

2 minutes ago, hwiles said:

If anyone new picks up Odium's shard...they'd probably just turn into a new, slightly less effective Rayse and then have to be killed.  Hatred is a pretty objectively bad Intent, I don't think it could really ever get along with the other Shards, by very definition.

That said, it could be splintered and tied up throughout Greater Roshar to keep its effects pretty negligible...Though, if Cultivation picked up Odium's shard (and what the heck, Honor's too for fun), we might get an army of Radiants who can both surgebind, voidbind, and be mind-controlled by their god in a pinch.  ("~Inarticulate screams~ CULTIVATION SMASH PUNY SHARDWORLDS!")  All I have to say, is, "Look out Scadrial!"

I want to see a Harmony v. Honor-vat-ium brawl.

COSMERE COSMERE COSMERE!!!

Edited September 1, 2016 by bleeder

[Sand Master]

5 hours ago, jofwu said:

Well you know what they say... Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to odium. Odium leads to suffering.

Oh god.... Odium is Anakin Skywalker!

[goody153]

I don't think Odium would die if he gets defeated in the desolation unless a shard tries to kill him after being weakened assuming he gets weakened after his champion loses or something. No way humans could kill a shard no matter what kind of arrangement they have, it has to be another shard or the power of another shard.

[+hwiles He/Him]

12 minutes ago, goody153 said:

I don't think Odium would die if he gets defeated in the desolation unless a shard tries to kill him after being weakened assuming he gets weakened after his champion loses or something. No way humans could kill a shard no matter what kind of arrangement they have, it has to be another shard or the power of another shard.

Don't be so sure.  Humans killed the thing that broke into the 16 shards after all.  If there's one constant in the Cosmere, it's that everything has weaknesses, as well as strengths.

[goody153]

Just now, hwiles said:

Don't be so sure.  Humans killed the thing that broke into the 16 shards after all.  If there's one constant in the Cosmere, it's that everything has weaknesses, as well as strengths.

Brandon Implied that there was a "force" involved in the shattering of adonalsium not Purely humans. No way powerless humans alone could murder a shard they have to use another shards power or help with another shard.

Quote

WOR-University Bookstore (Paraphrased)

AHOYMATEY ()

Did Adonalsium deliberately shatter itself?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

Hmmm, good question! RAFO

 

Quote

INTERVIEW: Jul 1st, 2015

San Diego Comic Con 2015

COGNIZANTASTIC

Was Adonalsium Shattered by an external force?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Adonalsium was not Shattered by himself, herself, or itself. (impish smile)

FOOTNOTE

Commentary : I am assuming that Brandon was referring to the consciousness (I think the existence of Shards that embody human aspects verifies the existence of a consciousness, although this has not been canonized.), rather than the power of Adonalsium. As I understand it, this leaves 2 possibilities : 1. Adonalsium was Shattered by an external force, in the most obvious sense, 2. Adonalsium was Shattered by an external force, by having his/her/its power manipulated and used against spacehim/her/it, causing the Shattering.

I don't buy this humans ALONE killing shard theory unless they had help from another shard or the power of another shard like huge chunk. 

[+hwiles He/Him]

Er...I'll bite, when did Brandon imply humans didn't kill Adonalsium?  Those quotes don't imply that.  All those quotes say is that Adonalsium probably didn't commit suicide.  He says it didn't kill itself (referring most likely to the conscious aspect of itself) ~impish smile~ but leaves unsaid what did kill it.  Was it killed by humans?  Ants? Its own power?  Werewolves?  I think it's a little too soon to be drawing conclusions about a story that isn't set to be drafted for 10-20 years...

To say humans couldn't shatter a Shard strikes me as a little too absolutist in my opinion.  I mean, at the very least it's conceivable that they could talk to one, make it feel bad, and ultimately lead it to kill itself, or otherwise stop protecting itself from being killed.  Even if you can't directly overpower an enemy, there are other ways to win.

Edited September 2, 2016 by hwiles

[goody153]

30 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Er...I'll bite, when did Brandon imply humans didn't kill Adonalsium?  Those quotes don't imply that.  All those quotes say is that Adonalsium probably didn't commit suicide.  He says it didn't kill itself (referring most likely to the conscious aspect of itself) ~impish smile~ but leaves unsaid what did kill it.  Was it killed by humans?  Ants? Its own power?  Werewolves?  I think it's a little too soon to be drawing conclusions about a story that isn't set to be drafted for 10-20 years...

To say humans couldn't shatter a Shard strikes me as a little too absolutist in my opinion.  I mean, at the very least it's conceivable that they could talk to one, make it feel bad, and ultimately lead it to kill itself, or otherwise stop protecting itself from being killed.  Even if you can't directly overpower an enemy, there are other ways to win.

I was more talking about brute force. I mean in this fantasy setting of cosmere Adonalsium seems to be literally god and so are the shard, they could change the genetics of an entire planet and could actually fling a planet into a sun if they wanted to within a wave of their hand and that's the power of the shard alone. So i was more arguing about the ability of humans vs ability of a literal shards since even the source of magic of the humans are from the shards.

But i can totally see Humans assisted Adolnasium's eventual suicide(if the case was that Adonalsium power got himself killed and split into 16) but not raw power vs raw power. 

 

Edited September 2, 2016 by goody153

[Vaatuu]

11 hours ago, Naurock said:

Could Cultivation pick up Honor and Hatred's shard pieces and form a new intent?

That's a vary interesting idea, what would be the resulting intent be if your where to bring these shards together. Odium + Honor would presumably be something along the lines of Vengeance, Odium + Cultivation in my head is Poison Ivy if she was God (no idea in regards to what the name would be though, also I may be misinterpreted Cultivation altogether). As for anything else I have no idea.

 

[Amaror]

Do you guys really think Rayse would be able to just pick up another shard just like that? I don't think it would fit him.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but if I remember right Secret History kind of explained that a shard can only be really picked up if the potential shardholder *fits* the shard. Like how Kelsier could only pick up Preservation with a device (And even with that he could only hold the shard very poorly), because he had too much destructive power in him. He was too much of ruin, so to say.

Now Sazed was able to pick up Ruin and Preservation because he was somewhat neutral. He fit both Preservation and Ruin equally and thus was able to pick up both and combine them to a new intent. Rayse, at least from what I remember of the letters, is pretty much 100% of Odium, so I heavily doubt he would be able to just pick up another shard like it's nothing.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

8 minutes ago, Amaror said:

Do you guys really think Rayse would be able to just pick up another shard just like that? I don't think it would fit him.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but if I remember right Secret History kind of explained that a shard can only be really picked up if the potential shardholder *fits* the shard. Like how Kelsier could only pick up Preservation with a device (And even with that he could only hold the shard very poorly), because he had too much destructive power in him. He was too much of ruin, so to say.

Now Sazed was able to pick up Ruin and Preservation because he was somewhat neutral. He fit both Preservation and Ruin equally and thus was able to pick up both and combine them to a new intent. Rayse, at least from what I remember of the letters, is pretty much 100% of Odium, so I heavily doubt he would be able to just pick up another shard like it's nothing.

I still feel like the "connection to the shard being needed" is kinda garbage. I personally think that Kel and Sazed's situation has to do with them (and all of Scadrial) being created directly by Ruin and Preservation

Edit: I'm most likely wrong, but Sazed and Feruchemy are a neutral mix of both shards, so theres where the connections (pun not intended) started coming together

Edited September 6, 2016 by The One Who Connects

[soyperson]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

I still feel like the "connection to the shard being needed" is kinda garbage.

This coming from @The One Who Connects. 

@The One Who Connects is denouncing connection. 

Hoid would call it irony. Or something of that ilk.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, bleeder said:

3 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I still feel like the "connection to the shard being needed" is kinda garbage.

This coming from @The One Who Connects. 

@The One Who Connects is denouncing connection. 

It defeats the purpose of the concept inhibiting Sazed from taking much action: People become molded to the Intent. If you have to match the intent to pick it up, that property of Investiture seems self-defeating.

As for the name, it's a month younger than the WoR release date The irony is still funny