Diagram vs. Radiants

[nervousnerd]

From the end of WOR, it seems we have two groups who are or will grow to be the main powers on Roshar: the Taravangian led Diagram; and the Dalinar led Radiants (I know that he does not truly lead them but he is the closest that they have right now). While I am sure other groups will come into play, I am not sure that they will be able to match these groups easily. What I want to discuss is the different plans for weathering the coming storm.

It seems to me that the Radiant strategy will rely more around fighting their way through the desolation. I know many orders were not necessarily fighters (although they all seem to possibly get a shardblade anyway) but in my mind, the strategy is more directly confrontational. They want to protect as many people as they can while also fighting back against the voidbringers. This is what they have done in the past but never without the Heralds. It may not work well to use this same strategy, with or without them.

Quote

Q: For what essential must we strive? A: The essential of preservation, to shelter a seed of humanity through the coming storm. Q: What cost must we bear? A: The cost is irrelevant. Mankind must survive. Our burden is that of the species, and all other considerations are but dust by comparison.—From the Diagram, Catechism of the Back of the Flowered Painting: paragraph 1

Taravangian, on the other hand, seems to be more about survival by any means. This may be what is required to make it past the desolation this time but one wonders at the cost. It seems to me (from the quote above) that he believes as long as enough of humanity survives to allow them to repopulate, he has done his job. But this may even mean sacrificing all other humans besides this necessary seed population. The Diagram would likely see no difference between using all remaining humans to fight/protect this seed or slitting their throats themselves as long as it served their ultimate goal.

 

Obviously, I am somewhat skeptical of the morality of the Diagram. Like I said, it may offer the best hope for Roshar but the sacrifices of the innocent that it could allow makes me wonder. I am also somewhat biased towards the glory of Radiant battles (how Alethi of me). But I do know that the Radiants will have to be and do more than they have in the past if the hope to actually make it through this fight. What do you guys think?

[Eki]

We don't yet know the motives or resources of the Ghostbloods, so it is very possible that they will be a major player as well.

But I think you framed the difference between the Diagram and the Radiants very well - the Diagram wants to give humanity its greatest chance of survival, but the plan it outlines is one where very few survive. The Radiants will want to take more of a risk in order to save more people. The plans contradict each other.

[thegatorgirl00]

I think the Radiants and Diagramists will have to clash at some point. The code in one of the epigraphs with a translation here seems to imply that Mr. T knows why the Radiants broke their oaths and he will use this against the new Radiants. 

[nervousnerd]

15 minutes ago, Eki said:

We don't yet know the motives or resources of the Ghostbloods, so it is very possible that they will be a major player as well.

But I think you framed the difference between the Diagram and the Radiants very well - the Diagram wants to give humanity its greatest chance of survival, but the plan it outlines is one where very few survive. The Radiants will want to take more of a risk in order to save more people. The plans contradict each other.

The Ghostbloods could be interesting. But I am not yet convinced of their actual power or even really the size of their membership. While it may be that the majority of their members are hidden in plain sight, I agree that we do not know enough to decide if they are a player. Shallan may tip this balance in one way or another though depending on her actions.

The Sons of Honor are another story though. Yes they have high profile members. Yes they seem to have access to information not many others do. But I honestly think they do not know what they are doing. This may change if they are able to use Taln in any way but I could honestly see him wiping them all out if he understood that they were trying to return the voidbringers in order to return the Heralds.

5 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I think the Radiants and Diagramists will have to clash at some point. The code in one of the epigraphs with a translation here seems to imply that Mr. T knows why the Radiants broke their oaths and he will use this against the new Radiants. 

I agree. Although, I have wondered why his smartest self would not find a use for the Radiants instead of (or at least before) trying to destroy them. I suppose that his methods might not allow many to achieve their Ideals if they openly served him but maybe if he influenced them in less obvious ways. Maybe it was seen as too dangerous or maybe we just haven't seen this part of the Diagram yet.

 

 

[Blightsong]

I think that the ghost bloods cosmeric knowledge instantly makes them on par in terms of dangerousness with the other groups. They almost definitely know more than every other group in terms of Realmatics and what is actually going on then any of the other groups.

[zmunkz]

1 hour ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I think the Radiants and Diagramists will have to clash at some point. The code in one of the epigraphs with a translation here seems to imply that Mr. T knows why the Radiants broke their oaths and he will use this against the new Radiants. 

Oh, that is interesting... In one of Brandon's laws of magic he explains his opinion that the costs for using/having magic are one of the more important parts of a good magic system when it comes to storytelling. I've been wondering for a while what the Radiants' have to pay for their abilities, possibly that could tie into what the Diagramists know?

[nervousnerd]

7 minutes ago, zmunkz said:

Oh, that is interesting... In one of Brandon's laws of magic he explains his opinion that the costs for using/having magic are one of the more important parts of a good magic system when it comes to storytelling. I've been wondering for a while what the Radiants' have to pay for their abilities, possibly that could tie into what the Diagramists know?

Certainly one possibility but I thought that, in regard to the Radiants at least, the main cost is them having to be broken before being able to use the magic. Now that itself could be a problem for possible Knights who do not see themselves as broken (Shallan and Kaladin are not of this group) but I don't think this would be the earth shattering secret we await.

[The One Who Connects]

12 hours ago, nervousnerd said:

Although, I have wondered why his smartest self would not find a use for the Radiants instead of (or at least before) trying to destroy them. I suppose that his methods might not allow many to achieve their Ideals if they openly served him but maybe if he influenced them in less obvious ways. Maybe it was seen as too dangerous or maybe we just haven't seen this part of the Diagram yet.

While you are right that we may not have seen that section of the Diagram. (I'm certain that there is more to it than what we've seen), I think what happened to Jah Keved is the reason why he would not use the Radiants.

Quote Taravangian: The cost is irrelevant. Mankind must survive. He shattered a whole nation to get them all under his banner. Granted, I personally think that is so that whatever the Diagram considers safety can ignore hassle over "authority." War-torn people will welcome an opportunity for peace. War before the Desolation is killing soldiers that could fight though... I think i get why Genius T. isn't allowed to make laws either.

[+hwiles]

During the Recreance, almost all of the Radiants, the sworn protectors of humanity who had sheltered them through the last desolation and adhered to strict codes of conduct, enforced by their spren, that, at least partially, disallowed them from abusing their powers, came together and decided they had had enough and were done playing.  Probably the most honorable and dedicated heroes of Roshar, almost unanimously and simultaneously, came to the realization that they really didn't want to be Radiants anymore, even if it meant killing their spren, who, judging by Kaladin and Syl's relationship, were pretty close and intimate friends.

I'd say that whatever secret was revealed to instigate this action was, 1) Extremely shocking and unexpected, 2) Completely counter to the basic ideas of having radiant orders, and 3) Indicates (whether correctly or incorrectly we won't know for a long time) in some way that the existence of Radiants probably endangers the entire human race.

It seems unlikely to me that the Radiants would have abandoned their oaths just to save their own skins, IE: if the spren are taking something from them, or eating their souls when they die, ect. more of them would probably have chosen to just deal with that in order to avoid killing their spren.  This implies to me that the revelation was probably much more horrific than just personal loss.

Unless...could Radiants have been getting sent to Damnation to fuel the Oathpact upon dying...?   Faced with an eternity in hell (assuming radiants don't get resurrected like heralds) for their human, I could see the spren insisting that the Radiants give up their oaths...

[Jondesu]

51 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Unless...could Radiants have been getting sent to Damnation to fuel the Oathpact upon dying...?   Faced with an eternity in hell (assuming radiants don't get resurrected like heralds) for their human, I could see the spren insisting that the Radiants give up their oaths...

Woah… never considered that possibility.  Doesn't seem very honorable, though, so I'd have a hard time believing that Honor and the Heralds could have set up that as part of the Oathpact.  Definitely scary if it is the case, though.

jW

[+hwiles]

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

Woah… never considered that possibility.  Doesn't seem very honorable, though, so I'd have a hard time believing that Honor and the Heralds could have set up that as part of the Oathpact.  Definitely scary if it is the case, though.

jW

Well...Honor didn't intentionally create the Radiants  (I think there's an explicit confirmation of this in a WoB...) and the Heralds were pretty sick of being sent to damnation by the time the Radiants came to be...the theory has holes, no question, but I think it could be plausible in part...though probably not as simple as my off-the-cuff explanation would imply. Guess we'll see 

[nervousnerd]

2 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Woah… never considered that possibility.  Doesn't seem very honorable, though, so I'd have a hard time believing that Honor and the Heralds could have set up that as part of the Oathpact.  Definitely scary if it is the case, though.

jW

Yeah. It may have been accidental. By joining the fight in a way that mimicked the Heralds, they may have also joined the Oathpact in some way. Unfortunately, they probably do not have the same ability to return for the next desolation if they die.

 

Also, something else that bothers me about the Diagram is Graves' mention that "We’re allowed to pursue our own interests and goals until we’re called up." I mean that just strikes me as stupid. Are they all working towards what they believe will fulfill the Diagram instead of working as a group? Why would this be allowed?

Edited August 30, 2016 by nervousnerd

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, nervousnerd said:

Also, something else that bothers me about the Diagram is Graves' mention that "We’re allowed to pursue our own interests and goals until we’re called up." I mean that just strikes me as stupid. Are they all working towards what they believe will fulfill the Diagram instead of working as a group? Why would this be allowed?

I want to say that they are like sleeper agents or something, allowed to carry on their normal(ish) lives until being called for assignment. They get to be average people and play sports/go to school/etc... when they aren't on a job. Maybe Mr. T wants it to feel more like a normal job than a secret society.
Oh, well that's almost a comparison.. Szeth is the Jason Bourne of Roshar before he went rogue. Master assassin, doesn't lose easily, somehow gets everywhere and escapes without much trace

Edited August 30, 2016 by The One Who Connects
punctuation

[nervousnerd]

35 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I want to say that they are like sleeper agents or something, allowed to carry on their normal(ish) lives until being called for assignment. They get to be average people and play sports/go to school/etc... when they aren't on a job. Maybe Mr. T wants it to feel more like a normal job than a secret society.
Oh, well that's almost a comparison.. Szeth is the Jason Bourne of Roshar before he went rogue. Master assassin, doesn't lose easily, somehow gets everywhere and escapes without much trace

But Graves' interests were killing Elhokar. As hobbies go, that is a little destructive. I mean, it is fine to let them have their own lives in between secret missions but your secret identity is supposed to be innocuous. I don't think you can be a secret agent in one life and then a secret assassin in another.

[What's a Seawolf?]

4 hours ago, hwiles said:

During the Recreance, almost all of the Radiants, the sworn protectors of humanity who had sheltered them through the last desolation and adhered to strict codes of conduct, enforced by their spren, that, at least partially, disallowed them from abusing their powers, came together and decided they had had enough and were done playing.  Probably the most honorable and dedicated heroes of Roshar, almost unanimously and simultaneously, came to the realization that they really didn't want to be Radiants anymore, even if it meant killing their spren, who, judging by Kaladin and Syl's relationship, were pretty close and intimate friends.

I'd say that whatever secret was revealed to instigate this action was, 1) Extremely shocking and unexpected, 2) Completely counter to the basic ideas of having radiant orders, and 3) Indicates (whether correctly or incorrectly we won't know for a long time) in some way that the existence of Radiants probably endangers the entire human race.

It seems unlikely to me that the Radiants would have abandoned their oaths just to save their own skins, IE: if the spren are taking something from them, or eating their souls when they die, ect. more of them would probably have chosen to just deal with that in order to avoid killing their spren.  This implies to me that the revelation was probably much more horrific than just personal loss.

Unless...could Radiants have been getting sent to Damnation to fuel the Oathpact upon dying...?   Faced with an eternity in hell (assuming radiants don't get resurrected like heralds) for their human, I could see the spren insisting that the Radiants give up their oaths...

Wow do I really like this theory.  Even just for the character implications.  One of our main radiants dies in some heroic way...only to have an epilogue POV from Braize.

(Leading to perhaps Kaladin having to Bridge 4 himself/others all over again in Braize to overcome Odium/something to get out and back to Roshar...)

With that said however, the way the Recreance is depicted in Honor's visions, I always got the feeling that part of the reason had to due with the non-Radiant humans.  Not entirely, but the way that scene is depicted seemed very much like a 'throw this in your face you're all on your own now' sort of thing.  Very unradiant like, but then in theory so was the Recreance.

[thegatorgirl00]

10 hours ago, hwiles said:

During the Recreance, almost all of the Radiants, the sworn protectors of humanity who had sheltered them through the last desolation and adhered to strict codes of conduct, enforced by their spren, that, at least partially, disallowed them from abusing their powers, came together and decided they had had enough and were done playing.  Probably the most honorable and dedicated heroes of Roshar, almost unanimously and simultaneously, came to the realization that they really didn't want to be Radiants anymore, even if it meant killing their spren, who, judging by Kaladin and Syl's relationship, were pretty close and intimate friends.

I'd say that whatever secret was revealed to instigate this action was, 1) Extremely shocking and unexpected, 2) Completely counter to the basic ideas of having radiant orders, and 3) Indicates (whether correctly or incorrectly we won't know for a long time) in some way that the existence of Radiants probably endangers the entire human race.

It seems unlikely to me that the Radiants would have abandoned their oaths just to save their own skins, IE: if the spren are taking something from them, or eating their souls when they die, ect. more of them would probably have chosen to just deal with that in order to avoid killing their spren.  This implies to me that the revelation was probably much more horrific than just personal loss.

That would mean that Nale's actions aren't as crazy as we thought. If the existence of Radiants does something super dangerous like indirectly fuel Odium's power, his desire to kill them suddenly makes a lot more sense. 

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

That would mean that Nale's actions aren't as crazy as we thought. If the existence of Radiants does something super dangerous like indirectly fuel Odium's power, his desire to kill them suddenly makes a lot more sense. 

I believe it was stated that Nale was killing the potential surgebinders because he thought that their existence would bring about another Desolation. 

14 hours ago, hwiles said:

During the Recreance, almost all of the Radiants, the sworn protectors of humanity who had sheltered them through the last desolation and adhered to strict codes of conduct, enforced by their spren, that, at least partially, disallowed them from abusing their powers, came together and decided they had had enough and were done playing.  Probably the most honorable and dedicated heroes of Roshar, almost unanimously and simultaneously, came to the realization that they really didn't want to be Radiants anymore, even if it meant killing their spren, who, judging by Kaladin and Syl's relationship, were pretty close and intimate friends.

I'd say that whatever secret was revealed to instigate this action was, 1) Extremely shocking and unexpected, 2) Completely counter to the basic ideas of having radiant orders, and 3) Indicates (whether correctly or incorrectly we won't know for a long time) in some way that the existence of Radiants probably endangers the entire human race.

It seems unlikely to me that the Radiants would have abandoned their oaths just to save their own skins, IE: if the spren are taking something from them, or eating their souls when they die, ect. more of them would probably have chosen to just deal with that in order to avoid killing their spren.  This implies to me that the revelation was probably much more horrific than just personal loss.

Unless...could Radiants have been getting sent to Damnation to fuel the Oathpact upon dying...?   Faced with an eternity in hell (assuming radiants don't get resurrected like heralds) for their human, I could see the spren insisting that the Radiants give up their oaths...

I believe what occurred is that the Radiants simply grew corrupt and lost their way, without the guidance of the Heralds and Honor, and the need for their protection in the form of Desolations. There are a few quotes from the books which support this:

Quote

"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine." 

- Words of Radiance,  chapter 38, page 20 [Chapter 41 Epigraph, WoR]

Quote

“Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quite unreasonable. By then, the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature.”

- Jasnah's Notes [Chapter 46 Epigraph, WoK]

Quote

"Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?"

- Death Rattle [Chapter 2 Epigraph, WoK]

It is, of course, possible, that the Radiants were being somehow being sent to Damanation like the Heralds once were. I don't see that though. First of all, there was no need at that point. As far as everyone was concerned, the Last Desolation had passed and the Oathpact was over. Only the Heralds knew the truth. There would've been no need for the Radiants to have given their oaths up at that point. If the spren were truly that concerned, they would've had the oaths be broken Desolations earlier, not when it did, at the Recreance. However, like I said, based on the quotes, it sounds like the Radiants just got lax, corrupt and broke their oaths one by one, until finally they were forced to give up their shards, and faded away. 

[nervousnerd]

 

 

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

 

I believe what occurred is that the Radiants simply grew corrupt and lost their way, without the guidance of the Heralds and Honor, and the need for their protection in the form of Desolations.

However, like I said, based on the quotes, it sounds like the Radiants just got lax, corrupt and broke their oaths one by one, until finally they were forced to give up their shards, and faded away. 

They may have become more corrupt over time but that does not explain the Recreance in my opinion. Corrupt people generally do not give up their power but rather hoard and abuse it. Who forced them to give it up?

Do you mean that they saw their organization becoming more corrupt and decided as a group that the world would be better of without them?

 

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, nervousnerd said:

 

 

They may have become more corrupt over time but that does not explain the Recreance in my opinion. Corrupt people generally do not give up their power but rather hoard and abuse it. Who forced them to give it up?

Do you mean that they saw their organization becoming more corrupt and decided as a group that the world would be better of without them?

 

They grew too corrupt and broke their oaths, killing their spren. They weren't forced to lose their powers, they lost them as a result of their actions. 

[+hwiles]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

They grew too corrupt and broke their oaths, killing their spren. They weren't forced to lose their powers, they lost them as a result of their actions. 

That's...possible I guess...But it doesn't seem entirely consistent with Dalinar's vision of the Recreance.  Also, Lightweavers don't really have oaths that they can break...as long as they are true to themselves, they get to do pretty much whatever they want.  If being a corrupt jerk is their prerogative, I don't see why that would kill their spren.

There's been a lot of speculation that when a Radiant dies without breaking their oaths their spren loses its personality, but is ultimately free to bond another person if it can find one.  If this wasn't the case, then it would be unreasonable and irrational for the spren to bond Radiants except when a desolation is imminent, since, in the case of Honorspren, if new ones are created at all, it occurs only very infrequently.  If Radiant-Spren are essentially a non-renewable resource and can only bond once, why waste them when everything is going well, ie: when the world isn't actively ending?

The vast majority of spren capable of bonding Radiants were "killed" during the Recreance in a manner that left them unable to initiate a new bond (technically, Brandon admits they could be revived, but he's also stressed that doing so would be outrageously difficult), meaning that even the orders like Lightweavers, who aren't really bound by any particular ethical code, probably ended up killing their spren.  If the Recreance wasn't a deliberate and intentional decision, I would think that many Radiants would have mended their ways before it was too late (just look at the grace period and second chance Kaladin got) which would have left a much larger pool of spren capable of bonding new humans in the present age.

We have reason to believe that Radiants are often, if not usually or even always, deeply emotionally attached to their spren.  Killing your spren would therefore be like killing your best friend, as well as forfeiting your godlike super powers.  I think the Recreance must have been intentional and resulted from the discovery of previously unknown information (information that mr. T believes he has, or is able to find btw); I could see the Radiants losing their way and becoming corrupt, but I can't see them all refusing the change when faced with the fact that if they didn't, they would be killing something dear to them and condemning it to endless torment.

[nervousnerd]

4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

They grew too corrupt and broke their oaths, killing their spren. They weren't forced to lose their powers, they lost them as a result of their actions. 

2 hours ago, hwiles said:

 If the Recreance wasn't a deliberate and intentional decision, I would think that many Radiants would have mended their ways before it was too late (just look at the grace period and second chance Kaladin got) which would have left a much larger pool of spren capable of bonding new humans in the present age.

We have reason to believe that Radiants are often, if not usually or even always, deeply emotionally attached to their spren.  Killing your spren would therefore be like killing your best friend, as well as forfeiting your godlike super powers.  I think the Recreance must have been intentional and resulted from the discovery of previously unknown information (information that mr. T believes he has, or is able to find btw); I could see the Radiants losing their way and becoming corrupt, but I can't see them all refusing the change when faced with the fact that if they didn't, they would be killing something dear to them and condemning it to endless torment.

I could understand them getting corrupt and this causing their spren to die but that would not be something that could happen all at once. It would be a slow trickle until there were none left. That is not what we saw. Whole orders where every member at the exact same time fell? That is not just something that happened. I agree with @hwiles that it was a conscious decision. It could have been a corrupt decision but I really think they did it for what could be considered a good reason because:

Quote

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership;

They did it publicly and in a way that they likely knew would make people hate them. These were also some of the best fighters of the time. I think if they wanted to, they could have defended themselves from an assault.

Edited August 31, 2016 by nervousnerd

[Spoolofwhool]

True, true.

9 minutes ago, nervousnerd said:

They did it publicly and in a way that they likely knew would make people hate them. These were also some of the best fighters of the time. I think if they wanted to, they could have defended themselves from an assault.

They could've made the group decision to end their oaths simultaneously because something made them realize how far they had strayed from their ideals. Maybe they found they couldn't live with the troubles they had been causing so basically gave up. At the same time though, they united the remnants of the world by making themselves a great target of hatred by everyone else. 

[Eki]

13 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I believe it was stated that Nale was killing the potential surgebinders because he thought that their existence would bring about another Desolation. 

For all we know, he could have been right, just looking in the wrong place. The Listeners seeing Kaladin Surgebind accelerated their decision to test the Stormform. Maybe if they hadn't seen Kaladin, they would have voted against the whole thing altogether.

[+hwiles]

3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

True, true.

They could've made the group decision to end their oaths simultaneously because something made them realize how far they had strayed from their ideals. Maybe they found they couldn't live with the troubles they had been causing so basically gave up. At the same time though, they united the remnants of the world by making themselves a great target of hatred by everyone else. 

This seems more plausible.  I personally think it would be a little more boring an explanation, but it could require many fewer flashbacks and avoid painful in-book explanations of complex Cosmere-related physics and realmatic theory that, let's face it, generally makes the series less accessible by more casual readers and fans.  I'll give you even odds on it and an upvote.

[Spoolofwhool]

True, it is a lot more boring, so I doubt that is what it will turn out to be. However, based on the information we have, I think it is the most likely scenario. The true scenario probably has a bit more to do about Honor and him abandoning the Radiants, as in one of the lines I quoted earlier.