On Odium's Shard-Murdery Method

[zeppomarks]

4 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Ach sad I missed this party. I just can't help post this bit: @zeppomarks I know what your potential corrupted devotion would be... Yandere!

Lol! Oh, that would be so creepy. Just this shard hiding in nebulae and peeking around planets all stalker-like. lol 

But now that you're here do you have any thoughts? No one had anything to say about the possible Shard-level Atium-esque duel that I think Odium and Cultivation are having, so that's still fresh.

[Djarskublar he/him]

3 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

Lol! Oh, that would be so creepy. Just this shard hiding in nebulae and peeking around planets all stalker-like. lol 

But now that you're here do you have any thoughts? No one had anything to say about the possible Shard-level Atium-esque duel that I think Odium and Cultivation are having, so that's still fresh.

Actually, your idea of a pseudo atium duel is probably pretty accurate, if you aren't in the camp that Cultivation has given up.

The only thing I would say is that there are so insanely many variables once you bring in the meddling of 2 shards that it doesn't matter anymore. You can see the future, and shape it. On the other hand, you can't see every single possibility even for a year out. It's infinite. You can only get a general idea of what happens if you do this sort of thing vs that sort. You can tell generally what's a good idea, and some events will keep popping up and you will know more about that event.

[zeppomarks]

5 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Actually, your idea of a pseudo atium duel is probably pretty accurate, if you aren't in the camp that Cultivation has given up.

The only thing I would say is that there are so insanely many variables once you bring in the meddling of 2 shards that it doesn't matter anymore. You can see the future, and shape it. On the other hand, you can't see every single possibility even for a year out. It's infinite. You can only get a general idea of what happens if you do this sort of thing vs that sort. You can tell generally what's a good idea, and some events will keep popping up and you will know more about that event.

Interesting. And I don't believe Cultivation has given up. That seems to go against her Intent. But along with that intent, she probably doesn't have much direct recourse against Odium. How can something that cultivates act against something that hates? Or anything, for that matter. Yeah, I don't think she's given up, I just don't think she has many options.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Interesting theory.

One thing to note, it actually does make sense for Dominion to be better at prescience then a lot of shards. Dominion is very closely linked with ambition. Which is very closely linked to foresight.

That aside, I don't believe Odium is corrupting the magic of enemy shards like this. It looks a lot more like he is just mercilessly exploiting the intent of enemy shards, because he understands how that intent can cripple his enemies.

For example, on Roshar, where Honor's influence is felt... He has one of his unmade create the thrill, which exploits the idea of honor in combat to turn people into bloodthirsty, dishonorable hypocrites. This doesn't directly interfere with honor's magic. It just exploits honor's intent to sow chaos. It looks more like he is corrupting people than that he is corrupting magic.

 

Also, pretty unrelated, but... After killing Aona and Skai on Sel... Might Odium have made the chasm that made Elantris fall as a finishing touch before leaving? I have no idea about the timelines, but it seems somehow fitting if this is indeed the case.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

36 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

Also, pretty unrelated, but... After killing Aona and Skai on Sel... Might Odium have made the chasm that made Elantris fall as a finishing touch before leaving? I have no idea about the timelines, but it seems somehow fitting if this is indeed the case.

Brandon has stated (maybe more than once) that Odium did not directly create the chasm.
Several of us assume that the magical pressure of 2 dead shards might have caused the cataclysm.

I'll edit with the appropriate WoB in a little bit, assuming i can find it again.. Edit: Spool included it already

Edited August 24, 2016 by The One Who Connects

[Spoolofwhool]

49 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

Interesting theory.

One thing to note, it actually does make sense for Dominion to be better at prescience then a lot of shards. Dominion is very closely linked with ambition. Which is very closely linked to foresight.

That aside, I don't believe Odium is corrupting the magic of enemy shards like this. It looks a lot more like he is just mercilessly exploiting the intent of enemy shards, because he understands how that intent can cripple his enemies.

For example, on Roshar, where Honor's influence is felt... He has one of his unmade create the thrill, which exploits the idea of honor in combat to turn people into bloodthirsty, dishonorable hypocrites. This doesn't directly interfere with honor's magic. It just exploits honor's intent to sow chaos. It looks more like he is corrupting people than that he is corrupting magic.

 

Also, pretty unrelated, but... After killing Aona and Skai on Sel... Might Odium have made the chasm that made Elantris fall as a finishing touch before leaving? I have no idea about the timelines, but it seems somehow fitting if this is indeed the case.

WoB that the Wyrn has foresight abilities as a result of Dominion, indicating that Dominion likely has better-than-average foresight as well. Good thought on the Thrill and the Unmade regarding honor. It makes sense, based on what we know about shards, like how Ruin was misdirecting people on Scadrial to get what he wanted. This makes me wonder that perhaps Odium managed to influence the Heralds, which is why they abandoned the Oathpact. 

Another WoB that states that Odium wasn't on Sel when the chasm was formed. Also, before the chasm Elantrians were still a thing, which means that the Dor was already well established at that point. However, Sanderson was vague as to whether Odium began a process which eventually resulted in the chasm.

With regards to the original point. I did find a WoB that skaze are pretty influential in Fjordell. However, I don't think skaze and seons were around until after the shattering of Dominion and Devotion. 

Edited August 24, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

It is possible that Seons and Skaze weren't. It depends on whether they were intentional splinters or if they are unintentional ones that resulted from the shards being splintered. I suspect you are right and that they are unintentional. This would explain perhaps why the do things that Skai would probably not actually want them to, because in all their time existing, Skai has been dead and they have only been influenced by the pure intent of the shard and not the shardholder.

[Spoolofwhool]

That's probably right. Also, yet another WoB (because I love them) that Skaze and Seons are somewhat aware of what they are. I feel like if they were intentional splinters, then Dominion and Devotion would've left them with a bit more information. Also, another WoB which talks about the skaze and seons being sort of like release valves for the Dor. Makes me think that they are basically unintentional leakages or pressure bursts from the Dor into the physical realm. 

[zeppomarks]

15 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

That's probably right. Also, yet another WoB (because I love them) that Skaze and Seons are somewhat aware of what they are. I feel like if they were intentional splinters, then Dominion and Devotion would've left them with a bit more information. Also, another WoB which talks about the skaze and seons being sort of like release valves for the Dor. Makes me think that they are basically unintentional leakages or pressure bursts from the Dor into the physical realm. 

That first WoB is interesting. It seems to imply that the Shu-Korath religion isn't worshiping Devotion, which I always assumed it was.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

50 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

That first WoB is interesting. It seems to imply that the Shu-Korath religion isn't worshiping Devotion, which I always assumed it was.

Well, time to reread "The Pool is Dominion's Shardpool" theory

[zeppomarks]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Well, time to reread "The Pool is Dominion's Shardpool" theory

Wait, wha?

[Jondesu he/him]

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Well, time to reread "The Pool is Dominion's Shardpool" theory

 

1 hour ago, zeppomarks said:

Wait, wha?

Heh, I did one of those (I think there was an older one too): 

jW

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Well, that's what I get for searching though the Cosmere Theories section first.

[zeppomarks]

14 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Heh, I did one of those (I think there was an older one too)

Huh. That could very well be. I think there might be more to it than this, but I certainly think it's plausible. The only thing off the top of my head that would contradict it is that Ashe at one point told Sarene something along the lines that her god wasn't his. Or at least implied it. And we know that Seons are of Devotion.

Either way, I like the theory.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

The only thing off the top of my head that would contradict it is that Ashe at one point told Sarene something along the lines that her god wasn't his. Or at least implied it. And we know that Seons are of Devotion.

Funny how you think that contradicts it when it was the only reason I brought it up
Matter of opinion I guess

[zeppomarks]

12 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Funny how you think that contradicts it when it was the only reason I brought it up
Matter of opinion I guess

But didn't the theory say that the religion is of Devotion? Maybe I'm missing something.

Side note: I totally forgot that the theory had come up from what we were talking about earlier. I've been jumping around this forum too much. Can't keep my conversations straight. lol

[Spoolofwhool]

I think that Shu-Korath is worshipping Devotion, just that they aren't aware of it. Bit of background, the precepts of Shu-Korath is the unity of the world though love. This is a contrast to Shu-Dereth which believes in unity through obedience of a single hierarchy. So Shu-Korath, believes in Domi, their god and protector. The name Domi is based from the aon Omi, which means love. However, I do not think that they are aware of the whole Shard existence. It is that difference that Brandon and Ashe was referring to. The difference between seeing Domi as a powerful divine figure who lovingly protects humankind, and the shard Devotion who, in a sense, created the seons.

tl;dr They are all worshiping the concept of Devotion as a god. Only the seons know of the shard Devotion. Followers of Shu-Korath just think it's a god.

[Jondesu he/him]

I don't think either Shu-Korath or Shu-Dereth are directly worshipping either Shard by now.  The Shards were shattered a good while before Elantris, from what I understand, and by that point in time the religions are no longer tied to either.  I think it's an important thing to remember that Devotion is not necessarily a good Intent (removed from all other context, just like Ruin or Odium), and Dominion isn't necessarily bad either.  Both, in the right or wrong situations, could have easily spawned good or bad religions, but more importantly, they don't have any influence over those religions now, if they ever did.  I don't think using Shu-Korath or Shu-Dereth to figure out which Shard represents each is even relevant, even though I did bring them up in that topic.  The Seons and Skaze, while they're connected to specific Shards, don't necessarily correspond to the Shardpools or even Elantris, though the Seons do seem draw to the city (though we only see that with Seons bonded to Elantrians, so that's hard to be sure about).

Basically, Devotion and Dominion seem to have joined their power together more than other Shards anyways, and of course they're even more indistinct from each other now as the Dor, so we can't necessarily separate each religion or elements from those, apart from the Seons and Skaze, which are splinters created after the Shards were shattered, per WoB.  I still hold to the idea that Shu-Dereth's basic principles are more aligned with Devotion than Dominion, when you view those intents apart from any other virtues that give it context, as Frost would say.  I also still believe that the Shardpool outside Elantris is likely Dominion's, and Devotion's is probably where Jaddeth is suppose to arise, or perhaps over in MaiPon or somewhere unrelated to the Elantris storyline.

jW

[Ari he/him]

6 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

I don't think either Shu-Korath or Shu-Dereth are directly worshipping either Shard by now.  The Shards were shattered a good while before Elantris, from what I understand, and by that point in time the religions are no longer tied to either.  I think it's an important thing to remember that Devotion is not necessarily a good Intent (removed from all other context, just like Ruin or Odium), and Dominion isn't necessarily bad either.  Both, in the right or wrong situations, could have easily spawned good or bad religions, but more importantly, they don't have any influence over those religions now, if they ever did.  I don't think using Shu-Korath or Shu-Dereth to figure out which Shard represents each is even relevant, even though I did bring them up in that topic.  The Seons and Skaze, while they're connected to specific Shards, don't necessarily correspond to the Shardpools or even Elantris, though the Seons do seem draw to the city (though we only see that with Seons bonded to Elantrians, so that's hard to be sure about).

Basically, Devotion and Dominion seem to have joined their power together more than other Shards anyways, and of course they're even more indistinct from each other now as the Dor, so we can't necessarily separate each religion or elements from those, apart from the Seons and Skaze, which are splinters created after the Shards were shattered, per WoB.  I still hold to the idea that Shu-Dereth's basic principles are more aligned with Devotion than Dominion, when you view those intents apart from any other virtues that give it context, as Frost would say.  I also still believe that the Shardpool outside Elantris is likely Dominion's, and Devotion's is probably where Jaddeth is suppose to arise, or perhaps over in MaiPon or somewhere unrelated to the Elantris storyline.

jW

Uh, it's pretty heavily implied that Korathi religion is related to Devotion and Derethi to Dominion, especially when you realise that Dominion is more likely to mean the power or right to govern as opposed to a territory or kingdom, and that neither meaning really has any relevance to Korathi beliefs. The real reason it's unlikely that Dominion's Perpendicularity is in Elantris, however, is that AonDor is named after Devotion, (her name is Aona) and the Skaze are named after Dominion. (his name is Skai, and it rhymes with "bay," iirc) I can't imagine Skai having his Perpendicularity in a stronghold of Aona's magic users, no matter how friendly they are. His power simply wouldn't naturally condense in such a location.

Drawing conclusions about the level of co-operation between Devotion and Dominion because of the Dor may be unwise, as Sel is the only planet we've seen where multiple Splintered shards are present. It may well be that the merging of Spiritual power is a result of having any two Splintered Shards on one planet, or simply an artifact of how they were killed. (there are some hints that something very disastrous happened to the transition between the Cognitive and Spiritual realms around Sel...) I'm certainly not ruling out that the shards were on friendly terms or even lovers, I'm just saying that we don't have any evidence just yet.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

I don't think either Shu-Korath or Shu-Dereth are directly worshipping either Shard by now.  The Shards were shattered a good while before Elantris, from what I understand, and by that point in time the religions are no longer tied to either.  I think it's an important thing to remember that Devotion is not necessarily a good Intent (removed from all other context, just like Ruin or Odium), and Dominion isn't necessarily bad either.  Both, in the right or wrong situations, could have easily spawned good or bad religions, but more importantly, they don't have any influence over those religions now, if they ever did.  I don't think using Shu-Korath or Shu-Dereth to figure out which Shard represents each is even relevant, even though I did bring them up in that topic.  The Seons and Skaze, while they're connected to specific Shards, don't necessarily correspond to the Shardpools or even Elantris, though the Seons do seem draw to the city (though we only see that with Seons bonded to Elantrians, so that's hard to be sure about).

Basically, Devotion and Dominion seem to have joined their power together more than other Shards anyways, and of course they're even more indistinct from each other now as the Dor, so we can't necessarily separate each religion or elements from those, apart from the Seons and Skaze, which are splinters created after the Shards were shattered, per WoB.  I still hold to the idea that Shu-Dereth's basic principles are more aligned with Devotion than Dominion, when you view those intents apart from any other virtues that give it context, as Frost would say.  I also still believe that the Shardpool outside Elantris is likely Dominion's, and Devotion's is probably where Jaddeth is suppose to arise, or perhaps over in MaiPon or somewhere unrelated to the Elantris storyline.

jW

What about the fact that Shu-Korath is about unity through love and their god is named Domi, based off of Omi (Love) while Shu-Dererth is about unity through hierarchy?

[Jondesu he/him]

On 8/26/2016 at 1:16 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

What about the fact that Shu-Korath is about unity through love and their god is named Domi, based off of Omi (Love) while Shu-Dererth is about unity through hierarchy?

Brandon's already said that the name Domi isn't related to Dominion. Devotion entirely separated from concepts like love would result in a religion wholly focused on absolute devotion to the person above you.  Dominion is not domination either, but having control over a place or people, which Elantra typifies to an extreme degree.

Again, I have come to believe that the religions can't be our basis for deciding any connections to the Shards, but let's make sure we're not making faulty assumptions just because that's how we've always perceived things.

jW

[Ari he/him]

7 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Brandon's already said that the name Domi isn't related to Dominion. Devotion entirely separated from concepts like love would result in a religion wholly focused on absolute devotion to the person above you.  Dominion is not domination either, but having control over a place or people, which Elantra typifies to an extreme degree.

Again, I have come to believe that the religions can't be our basis for deciding any connections to the Shards, but let's make sure we're not making faulty assumptions just because that's how we've always perceived things.

jW

Dominion is absolutely about domination. It's not a weird linguistic coincidence that the words sound similar, they're both based on the same Latin root, but one comes from the verb, and another comes from the noun for "lord." Dominion is a legalised, monarchy-centred system through which domination is expressed. Shu-Dereth's system of unity through heirarchical obediance is a dead-ringer for a religion based on Dominion's philosophy.

That said, I think you're misinterpretting @Spoolofwhool, my understanding was that they were claiming that Domi is based on Devotion, and citing the meaning of Aon Omi being a synonym for the Shard's Intent, which I absolutely agree with.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Ari
mixed up Korathi and Derethi, whoops

[Spoolofwhool]

23 minutes ago, Ari said:

Dominion is absolutely about domination. It's not a weird linguistic coincidence that the words sound similar, they're both based on the same Latin root, but one comes from the verb, and another comes from the noun for "lord." Dominion is a legalised, monarchy-centred system through which domination is expressed. Shu-Korath's system of unity through heirarchical obediance is a dead-ringer for a religion based on Dominion's philosophy.

That said, I think you're misinterpretting @Spoolofwhool, my understanding was that they were claiming that Domi is based on Devotion, and citing the meaning of Aon Omi being a synonym for the Shard's Intent, which I absolutely agree with.

Yes. My point wasn't that they were worshipping the shard, it was that they were worshipping the shard's intent, ignorant of the fact that there was a true power behind it. The "your gods" that Ashe was referring to was the divinity figure that they believe Domi to be, not the actual shard Devotion is. In any case, this doesn't prove anything either way regarding the shardpool. However, I think that the fact that there are a ton of splinters of Devotion in the area seem to indicate that the area is more attributed to Devotion. Of course, it could be a coincidence.