On Odium's Shard-Murdery Method

[zeppomarks]

K. So, we have two examples of a planet graced by Odium's ickiness. Sel and Roshar. Three out of four shardbearers dead, but that Cultivation... She's sure being a bother with the whole refusing-to-die thing.

 

Let's list some facts before we get to speculating.

1. All shards hold roughly equivalent power.
2. Odium killed two shardbearers on Sel, but is having trouble with one (and a half?) SB(s?) on Roshar.
3. Odium has not invested in Roshar (because, one, he doesn't want to be attached to a planet and, two, the very act would drain his power irrevocably like it did to Leras) yet his influence is very clearly felt there. 
4. Preservation, Odium, and Cultivation are gifted with precognition, whereas Honor and Ruin are not. I have no idea where the rest stand, though I'm assuming Endowment has this ability since, I believe the Returned have some level of sensitivity to this or something similar (still need to read Warbreaker).

 

Alright, I'd like to get a tiny, mostly unrelated, hypothesis out of the way before proceeding to the larger one.

I think that the reason Odium is having so much trouble with Cultivation is twofold. One: Obviously, it's heavily implied that Honor did something to snare Odium on, presumably, Braize. But two: Both Odium and Cultivation can glimpse the future.

This is the first time, that we know of, that two shards with a strong affinity for prescience have come into conflict. Honor had trouble with it and the Intents of Devotion and Dominion don't seem to allow any clear reasoning why they might be adept at it. However, Tanavast mentioned that Cultivation was good at it.

My point is, I think that Odium, while already severely hampered by Honor, is locked in what would be the shard equivalent to an Atium duel. Both shards can see what the other one might do before they do it, so neither can really make a move without letting the other gain advantage.

 

Alright, on to the bigger hypothesis.

I think I might know how Odium is killing shards that should be just as powerful as he is.

I think that Odium can, somehow, corrupt the Investiture of other shards. And possibly even the Intent of a shard, as long as that shard has no holder to guide it.

Let's start with Sel. You have Aona's Seons and the Skaze who are "related to Skai". The wording is important there. Nothing about Dominion, except the Skaze, seems outright evil.

I believe that, before Odium arrived, Dominion's influence on Sel was limited to defining what part of the world each magic system would be confined to, benign Skaze, and maybe a couple of other minor things. Then, Odium began corrupting Dominion, almost like poison or a disease. Not expending Investiture in any permanent way. Just pushing on Dominion's Investiture. Dominion would have to Invest more and more into his splinters to keep them from being corrupted, until Skai eventually falls to Odium's disease-poison.

After, Dominion splinters, the manifestations of the Shard's Investiture continue to be corrupted. Now the Skaze are influencing Wyrn and the rest of Fjorden and the Shu-Dereth religion through prophecy. Like I said earlier, there doesn't seem to be any reason for Dominion to have had prescience, although Odium does. Of course, the prophecies might have been fabrications of the Skaze to get Fjorden to conquer. However, even this possibility lends itself to my hypothesis.

Why would Dominion's splinters want to take over the world? The Fjordell Empire has only been following the Shu-Dereth for 300 years prior to the Reod. This most likely means that they began convincing Fjorden to conquer sometime after Dominion's splintering. Just as the Seons are devoted to their owner, the Skaze should have carried on as intended after Dominion got splintered. Unless, with no holder to interpret the Shard's Intent and Odium's corruption of the splinters going rampant, the splinters began interpreting the Shard's Intent in the most maleficent way possible.

I believe that Skai had interpreted Dominion's Intent as defining dominions for nations by giving each region it's own magic system, but the Odium-corrupted Skaze are interpreting the Intent in in a far more general and dangerous way. Control. This is why they are using prophecies that say that Jaddeth will only return once the entire world worships him. The splintered, corrupted shard of Dominion wants to control everything.

As for Devotion, I don't believe Odium had to do anything after killing Dominion. Devotion saw what happened to Dominion and, being devoted to her world and it's people, decided to splinter herself so that the Selish people might have a chance only having to deal with one corrupted set of splinters. Who knows what might have happened if Devotion had become corrupted as well. Although, it may be possible that, instead of splintering herself, she may have just done something similar to Preservation, where she invested herself into Sel so hard that she died, either effectively or actually. No one knows who built Elantris and it's four cities. Maybe Elantris is the solid manifestation of Devotion's body?

I don't know, either way, I think Devotion eliminated herself.

After a few centuries or so of rest, Odium packs his bags and heads toward Roshar.

Again, we have evidence of manifestations of native Investiture being corrupted. 

Now this part will be far less detailed because there is way less and, at the same time, way more information to deal with here.

Odium gets to Roshar and begins work on corrupting Honor's investiture, various types of Spren. Of course, this is assuming that the Spren are similar to Feruchemy, in that they are not a manifestation of a single Shard, but the result of both. Like I said, while there's more in text information in SA, there's also less WoB due to Sanderson being more tight-lipped about the details.

Because of the more active and confrontational nature of Roshar and it's form of Investiture, this corruption begins the Desolations. The Knights Radiant and their bonded Spren are less affected by Odium due to Surgebinding and Nahel bonds having humans to anchor them. Unbonded Spren, no matter how powerful, are more susceptible to Odium's influence and are easily corrupted. Similarly, beings that pre-existed the arrival of Honor, Cultivation, and humans (such as chasmfiends and the Listeners) are also more easily corrupted. Precisely why, I am unsure, but the pattern fits.

Eventually, Honor dies, the Oathpact is broken, and the Day of Recreance occurs. We still have no idea why these things happened exactly or why any of this has kept another Desolation from coming for 4500 years when, according to my calculations which I'll deal with in another post, there should have been only about 300 years between Desolations.

Either way, I think we're still seeing the effect of Odium's corruption on Honor's intent. Aside from the Unmade and certain Odium-aligned spren, the people of Roshar have a twisted sense of what honor is. They think it has to do with war and violence and other trivialities that people often associate with honor. However looking at Surgebinding, the Orders of the Knights Radiant, and Spren shows that Tanavast's interpretation of Honor had far more to do with fulfilling obligations than it did with conflict of any kind. Sure, it's very effective in combat, but so is Preservation's Allomancy and we know that killing acts against his Intent. Granted, this specific corruption of Honor's Intent could easily be explained by the fact that their humans and humans do terrible things sometimes, but with phenomena like the Thrill and the inordinate amount of warring that occurs throughout Roshar, it's definitely more than "humans being human".

I think this is all I have right now. At least, it's all my brain will give me. I've been working on this for the last few hours. lol I need coffee.

I have another theory, but it would rebuff almost everything I've said here and there's far less information pointing to it, so I wanted to get this one out before I send out the next one.

Let me know what y'all think and where I made obvious mistakes, please and thank you.

Have a goodun

[Blightsong]

Ere are several reasons I'm uncertain that this is the case. But before I get into those, let's talk about some of those facts. We are not sure that Odium was without help when he shattered the shards on Sel this WoB has led many to theorize that another shard helped him out when he went to Sel. We are sure, however, that all shards are able to see the future to some degree, I think it is unfair to say that Honor and Ruin do not have this ability.

 

On to why I disagree, I think that you are looking at the situation in terms of good and evil too heavily. Wanting to take over the world (which is not a surprising thing for splinters of dominion to want to do) is not strictly evil, or even hateful for that matter. It is power hungry? Yes, but not strictly evil. Why would the Skaze suddenly want to do this after dominion's splintering? Probably because there was no intelligence to control the power's impulses. Skai likely was able to steer the power away from what it truly wanted. We also don't know that all Skaze want to take over, just that some are. Also, if Odium had also done the Same with Devotion wouldn't we see hateful acts out of the Seons?

 

My other big issue involves something that someone said is Secret History. 

Spoiler

When Khriss talks about the death of previous Shards she calls their deaths "A single stunning event", as opposed to the strangulation that Ruin was inflicting upon Preservation. This seems directly contrary to what you are saying here.

 

Anyways, this was pretty well put together, let me know how you think what the above does to change your theory.

[The One Who Connects]

I'm really struggling to find WoB on the Seons/Skaze, so I wont deal with that here until then. In short, I'm pretty sure it said that when Odium visited there were no Seons.

46 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

Eventually, Honor dies, the Oathpact is broken, and the Day of Recreance occurs.
If I remember correctly, broken Oathpact was 1st. I don't think Brandon has pinned down whether the Recreance Vision Honor sent Dalinar was foresight or a memory, so no clue on the other 2 events.

We still have no idea why these things happened exactly or why any of this has kept another Desolation from coming for 4500 years when,
Why they happened, no. People sound fairly sure that Taln resisting the torture was preventing the return of Desolations.

there should have been only about 300 years between Desolations.
I really want to hear this. I am struggling to find a way to reliably get anything under 350-400.

 

[Blightsong]

20 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm really struggling to find WoB on the Seons/Skaze, so I wont deal with that here until then. In short, I'm pretty sure it said that when Odium visited there were no Seons.

 

 I remember this WoB, but it doesn't confirm or deny that they are partly of Odium. Brandon has said that they appeared after the splintering because they served as a release for the now wild energy, similar to how more Spren popped up on Roshar after Honor's splintering.

[The One Who Connects]

12 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

but it doesn't confirm or deny that they are partly of Odium. Brandon has said that they appeared after the splintering because they served as a release for the now wild energy, similar to how more Spren popped up on Roshar after Honor's splintering.

Ah, but that I can find:

Quote

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner17

This is an awesome answer!   Source

Emphasis Mine. Granted, I can see a way for your statement to still be true, given a little creative thinking

[Blightsong]

9 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Ah, but that I can find:

Emphasis Mine. Granted, I can see a way for your statement to still be true, given a little creative thinking

Oh, nice, the emphasis pretty much disproves the main idea of this theory, well found.

[zeppomarks]

2 hours ago, Blightsong said:

Ere are several reasons I'm uncertain that this is the case. But before I get into those, let's talk about some of those facts. We are not sure that Odium was without help when he shattered the shards on Sel this WoB has led many to theorize that another shard helped him out when he went to Sel. We are sure, however, that all shards are able to see the future to some degree, I think it is unfair to say that Honor and Ruin do not have this ability.

Fair point, though still tenuous. Even if we take Brandon's coyness as tacit admission that Odium has worked with other Shards in the past, it gives no context to as when or to what extent, so provides little information to affect the theory either way. Also, to be fair, I never said that Honor and Ruin don't have the ability. They proved in the texts that, to some extent, they do. I simply said they we're gifted at it like some of the others.

On to why I disagree, I think that you are looking at the situation in terms of good and evil too heavily. Wanting to take over the world (which is not a surprising thing for splinters of dominion to want to do) is not strictly evil, or even hateful for that matter. It is power hungry? Yes, but not strictly evil. Why would the Skaze suddenly want to do this after dominion's splintering? Probably because there was no intelligence to control the power's impulses. Skai likely was able to steer the power away from what it truly wanted. We also don't know that all Skaze want to take over, just that some are. Also, if Odium had also done the Same with Devotion wouldn't we see hateful acts out of the Seons?

These two WoBs, here and here, state explicitly that Skaze are "evil Seons". The wording implies both moral duality of the Seons and Skaze, and the ubiquity of Skaze being evil. We wouldn't see hateful acts from the Seons through my hypothesis, because I said that Devotion splintered herself before Odium could affect her.

My other big issue involves something that someone said is Secret History. 

  Hide contents

When Khriss talks about the death of previous Shards she calls their deaths "A single stunning event", as opposed to the strangulation that Ruin was inflicting upon Preservation. This seems directly contrary to what you are saying here.

I still need to read Secret History. Either way, I don't see this as much of a problem. Let's break down the wording. The word "single" does give off the vibe that it happened in an instant, however in this context "single" is modifying "event". Odium's corruption of Dominion, and the subsequent splintering of both Shards could have taken decades, or possibly a century or two, and still, on a cosmic scale dealing with immortals and gods, felt to them like a "single stunning event". Especially when compared to how long it took for Ruin to destroy Preservation. Remember, Ruin didn't start working on Preservation at the beginning of "The Final Empire". By that time he had been working on bringing down Preservation for well over a millennia. Long enough for the idea of the Hero of Ages to be both prophesy and legend by the time of TLRs ascension.

Anyways, this was pretty well put together, let me know how you think what the above does to change your theory.

 

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

 

I'm really struggling to find WoB on the Seons/Skaze, so I wont deal with that here until then. In short, I'm pretty sure it said that when Odium visited there were no Seons.

This is intriguing. I hope you find this, because I haven't heard anything about it. I don't believe this would disprove my hypothesis, but it would certainly call for some addendums.

3 hours ago, zeppomarks said:

Eventually, Honor dies, the Oathpact is broken, and the Day of Recreance occurs.
If I remember correctly, broken Oathpact was 1st. I don't think Brandon has pinned down whether the Recreance Vision Honor sent Dalinar was foresight or a memory, so no clue on the other 2 events.

I'm still working on assembling the timeline of these things, but I wasn't really listing them in chronological order. Just kind of saying they happened. Although, I'm curious. Given the level of detail in the Recreance vision, and knowing that the Day of Recreance happened in the past, why would there be speculation that this vision might be foresight? I hadn't heard of this possiblity.

We still have no idea why these things happened exactly or why any of this has kept another Desolation from coming for 4500 years when,
Why they happened, no. People sound fairly sure that Taln resisting the torture was preventing the return of Desolations.

Why would Taln, alone, be able to prevent a Desolation for so long when all ten together could only prevent it for a few hundred years? You're comment brought a couple ideas to mind concerning this that are interesting, but I've never thought of this, so I'd like to hear what other said to see if it matches my idea.

there should have been only about 300 years between Desolations.
I really want to hear this. I am struggling to find a way to reliably get anything under 350-400.

I plan on getting to this within a day or two. I may totally be wrong about it too, though. Still have to do quite a bit more research and thinking before I'm comfortable with putting this one out there.

 

 

1 hour ago, Blightsong said:

Oh, nice, the emphasis pretty much disproves the main idea of this theory, well found.

I disagree. I already knew that Odium didn't leave any power behind and took that into consideration. I never said that he left power, but that he left traces of his influence.

 

Back to... regular font!

Reading back on my hypothesis, I feel an alteration is necessary. I don't believe that Odium's infection of other shards is an active thing that Odium is doing. I don't think that he is reaching out with his power and poisoning others. Rather, I believe that by his mere presence, he poisons other Shards, and the Shard's intent regulates to some extent how effective that corruption is.

Take this line of questioning and WoB. Especially number 3 and to a much lesser extent 2. Odium has not only something to do with having intense hatred for things, but being a focal point for the intense hatred of others. I believe that just by being around other Shards, their hatred for Odium grows and grows until they, essentially, corrupt and splinter themselves trying to get at Odium. He expends no energy and allows the other shards to destroy themselves trying to get at him.

Dominion would, naturally, be very territorial, so he wouldn't like it when Odium shows up. He would be far more susceptible to corrupting himself in an attempt to destroy Odium than Devotion. I can't speculate completely as to why Devotion would splinter herself in this scenario, except to simply avoid eventually becoming corrupted like Dominion and allowing her splinters to be as true to her interpretation of Devotion's Intent as possible. Of course, and I've been hesitant to say this cause it's just so hokey, but if Aona and Skai were romantically involved like Cultivation and Tanavast, Aona's Devotion to Skai might have drove her to get all Romeo & Juliet all over the place. Needless to say, I really, really hope this isn't the case. It might fit her intent and all but it would be incredibly melodramatic.

As for Odium's affect on Honor and Cultivation, I believe a similar thing occurred as on Sel, only with different motivations. When Odium arrives at Greater Roshar, Honor feels that he is obligated to protect Roshar and so does the right honourable thing and sallies forth to meet the enemy on the field of battle! Harumph, harumph! Ahem... Sorry. Got a little bit of British Empire stuck in my throat. Sun never sets! Pip pip! *cough cough* Wanna wrastle? I'll see you at high noon, pardner. *spittoon* Ah, there we go. American as ever. Moving on!

Honor expends himself, twisting and turning his Intent in an attempt to destroy Odium, but ends up destroying himself in the end. This would explain why the Knights Radiant seem to blame Honor for abandoning them, as implied by a few of the Death Rattles in WoK. It might also explain why Honor keep apologizing for dying. Of course, this could easily be because he feels guilty for failing in his obligation to protect Roshar, too. His apologies could be interpreted either way.

Cultivation's intent, as far as I know, hasn't been canonized, but I think it's safe to say that she probably strives to develop and better things; such as land, culture, or abilities. This would leave her little reason to act against Odium directly. But instead, simply work against his effect on Roshar. Obviously there's way more to whats going on here that we'll learn in future books in regards to motivations and restrictions of these shards, but that's why I'm being so vague about the interaction between Cultivation and Odium. Not enough information to speculate yet.

[Spoolofwhool]

WoB that there were no seons when Odium visited Sel. I'll comment more when I have time to.

[The One Who Connects]

14 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

Given the level of detail in the Recreance vision, and knowing that the Day of Recreance happened in the past, why would there be speculation that this vision might be foresight? I hadn't heard of this possiblity.

I may be wrong, but I somewhat remember the Recreance vision as being when Honor mentioned that Cultivation was better at foresight than he was.

14 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

Why would Taln, alone, be able to prevent a Desolation for so long when all ten together could only prevent it for a few hundred years? You're comment brought a couple ideas to mind concerning this that are interesting, but I've never thought of this, so I'd like to hear what other said to see if it matches my idea.
The prevailing theory (that I could find) was that Odium gets his Desolation once one of the Heralds breaks under turture, not all 10. Taln seemed the most resistant to torture.

Quote

Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error.— Words of Radiance, chapter 13, page 1

---

4 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

WoB that there were no seons when Odium visited Sel. I'll comment more when I have time to.
So that's why I couldn't find it. The only tag is "elantris"

Edited August 23, 2016 by The One Who Connects
Formatting

[Blightsong]

28 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

Fair point, though still tenuous. Even if we take Brandon's coyness as tacit admission that Odium has worked with other Shards in the past, it gives no context to as when or to what extent, so provides little information to affect the theory either way. Also, to be fair, I never said that Honor and Ruin don't have the ability. They proved in the texts that, to some extent, they do. I simply said they we're gifted at it like some of the others.

 

We have other WoB that I can't find right now that is a little more suggestive that he had help. That line about Honor and Ruin that I was reacted is this quote, "4. Preservation, Odium, and Cultivation are gifted with precognition, whereas Honor and Ruin are not." I guess it was just a miscommunication, too much coffee I assume .

 

As for the quote from Secret History (the exact wording of which is "the past deaths were different. They were each a single, stunning event, the god's power shattered and dispersed. This is more like strangulation while those were like a beheading.", the context and person being spoken to's knowledge makes it unlikely that the character speaking meant anything other than the obvious meaning of "single event". I would be fine if the quote said anything other than those exact words. Any kind of process is pretty much the opposite "single event", and what you described in your theory definitely sounds like a process. Yes, in the grand scheme of things long events can be seen as a 'single event', but I would never call a drawn out process, which you likened to a disease, as a single event.

[zeppomarks]

24 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

38 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

Given the level of detail in the Recreance vision, and knowing that the Day of Recreance happened in the past, why would there be speculation that this vision might be foresight? I hadn't heard of this possiblity.

I may be wrong, but I somewhat remember the Recreance vision as being when Honor mentioned that Cultivation was better at foresight than he was.

 Oh! No, the Recreance vision I'm talking about is the one where all the Knights drop their Shardblades and Plates. You're right about the vision you describe though. Honor pretty much explicitly states that what Dalinar is seeing is foresight, at least the best that Honor can provide.

38 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

Why would Taln, alone, be able to prevent a Desolation for so long when all ten together could only prevent it for a few hundred years? You're comment brought a couple ideas to mind concerning this that are interesting, but I've never thought of this, so I'd like to hear what other said to see if it matches my idea.
The prevailing theory (that I could find) was that Odium gets his Desolation once one of the Heralds breaks under turture, not all 10. Taln seemed the most resistant to torture.

 Ok, when you mentioned that, this is exactly where my mind went. I think it's pretty solid... And, wow... Taln's kind of a beast to take 4500 years of torture when other Heralds could only take a fraction of that. Daaaaang.... lol

Quote

Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error.— Words of Radiance, chapter 13, page 1

---

 

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

 Oh! No, the Recreance vision I'm talking about is the one where all the Knights drop their Shardblades and Plates. You're right about the vision you describe though. Honor pretty much explicitly states that what Dalinar is seeing is foresight, at least the best that Honor can provide.

Wait, those weren't the same vision? Well then.
Honor really gave him too many to keep track of

[zeppomarks]

6 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

 

We have other WoB that I can't find right now that is a little more suggestive that he had help. That line about Honor and Ruin that I was reacted is this quote, "4. Preservation, Odium, and Cultivation are gifted with precognition, whereas Honor and Ruin are not." I guess it was just a miscommunication, too much coffee I assume .

 

As for the quote from Secret History (the exact wording of which is "the past deaths were different. They were each a single, stunning event, the god's power shattered and dispersed. This is more like strangulation while those were like a beheading.", the context and person being spoken to's knowledge makes it unlikely that the character speaking meant anything other than the obvious meaning of "single event". I would be fine if the quote said anything other than those exact words. Any kind of process is pretty much the opposite "single event", and what you described in your theory definitely sounds like a process. Yes, in the grand scheme of things long events can be seen as a 'single event', but I would never call a drawn out process, which you likened to a disease, as a single event.

Oh, ok, I see where I goofed up. I didn't mean "gifted with precognition" as in "given precognition" but more like "really good at". Like a gifted child. Though, not a child given as a gift... I did it again... lol

I see what you're saying about the Secret History quote. The context and characters (one of them at least) does make a huge difference. I think that all this requires is a slight adjustment to the hypothesis, however. I'll have to think on it and see how much damage this comment does to my idea, though I'm not expecting anything permanent.

[zeppomarks]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Wait, those weren't the same vision? Well then.
Honor really gave him too many to keep track of

Lol. Aye. One happens in Chapter 52 and the other in Chapter 75.

[zeppomarks]

4 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note

Hm. I just realized what this could imply... I was assuming it was implying that Odium left behind the power of Dominion and Devotion, but this WoB creates further possibilities. Not sure how this aligns with this WoB however. Interesting stuff, either way.

[The One Who Connects]

@zeppomarks What might you be implying?

[zeppomarks]

@The One Who Connects "...leave his power behind" suggests that he left someone's power behind, just not any of his own, right? It may have been Dominion or Devotion, but since we know he's killed "at least" one other shard that we don't know about, he could have left some other unnamed shard's power behind as well. We know because of Rashek and Vin that one can acquire a shard, use it for a little bit, and then give it up... And if Odium had just left behind the power of Dominion and Devotion, I would think that Brandon would have just said it instead of obfuscating like that.

I don't know, maybe @Blightsong is right. The emphasis does seem to do more damage to my hypothesis than I thought it did.

It is drawing-board-going-back time.

[Spoolofwhool]

@The One Who Connects  You can search Theoryland for keywords instead of tags. It works a lot better.

9 hours ago, zeppomarks said:

3. Odium has not invested in Roshar (because, one, he doesn't want to be attached to a planet and, two, the very act would drain his power irrevocably like it did to Leras) yet his influence is very clearly felt there. 

Common theory is that Odium is invested into Roshar. This is how voidbinding came to be as a manifestation of investiture and voidspren, as well as the other Unmade. While it's true that he didn't invest before to avoid being bound, the situation on Roshar is clearly different, possibly due to the circumstances surrounding the Oathpact. 

2 hours ago, zeppomarks said:

 "...leave his power behind" suggests that he left someone's power behind, just not any of his own, right? It may have been Dominion or Devotion, but since we know he's killed "at least" one other shard that we don't know about, he could have left some other unnamed shard's power behind as well. We know because of Rashek and Vin that one can acquire a shard, use it for a little bit, and then give it up... And if Odium had just left behind the power of Dominion and Devotion, I would think that Brandon would have just said it instead of obfuscating like that.

I think that Brandon was just referring to the broken power of Dominion and Devotion here. First of all, he does love obfuscating stuff for us. Secondly, unless Odium had found someone else he trusted to take up the unnamed shard's power and bring it to Sel, there's no way he could've done so. The reason being is that I don't think it is likely that Odium would risk taking up another shard's power, even for a short time, and risk changing his intent. Of course, another possibility is that Odium went to Sel with another shard to shatter Devotion and Dominion together, then turned on his ally and shattered him/her as well. I doubt this though as well. All the WoBs I've seen regarding Sel indicate that there are only two shards there. Nothing indicates that there could be a third. Of course, it hasn't been specifically stated that there are only two, so it's possible, just unlikely.

 

Overall, I do agree with the theory that Odium has an ability which allows him to shatter shards more easily. However I do not currently think it is as proposed so far. 

[Argel]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Common theory is that Odium is invested into Roshar

I'm pretty sure we have a WoB that mentions Odium is avoiding heavily investing in a planet to avoid weakening himself. 

[zeppomarks]

@Spoolofwhool Hm. Good points. It makes sense that, while Odium has refused to become invested in a planet in the past due to not wanting to get stuck there, since he's stuck in Greater Roshar already... Though, with him like stuck on Braize, presumably... Could a shard invest in a planet they're not on? Also... Do you think there is a possibility that Desolations have something to do with the proximity of Braize to Roshar? Like we know that a Rosharan year is 500 days. But if a Braize year is, say, 501 Rosharan days long, then (as long as my math isn't wrong, which it usually is) then the two planets would be their closest every 500 years, right? That means that there would be a lot more distance between the two planets for many of those of those 500 years. Plus a sun for several of them. I know that Desolations have to do with the Oathpact and the Heralds and all, but which so few specific details, the distance between the two planets could still have something to do with it.

[Ari]

16 minutes ago, Argel said:

I'm pretty sure we have a WoB that mentions Odium is avoiding heavily investing in a planet to avoid weakening himself. 

Odium is pretty heavily implied to be invested in Roshar now. Besides, if you were stuck in the system and needed to get Cultivation and Honour's remnants out of your way in order to get out, investing at least a little in Greater Roshar makes sense, even if it might be difficult to recover that power in the future. I'm not sure how he would have taken control of the Parshendi, for instance, without investing in the planet.

8 hours ago, zeppomarks said:

<snip>

...

Reading back on my hypothesis, I feel an alteration is necessary. I don't believe that Odium's infection of other shards is an active thing that Odium is doing. I don't think that he is reaching out with his power and poisoning others. Rather, I believe that by his mere presence, he poisons other Shards, and the Shard's intent regulates to some extent how effective that corruption is.

Take this line of questioning and WoB. Especially number 3 and to a much lesser extent 2. Odium has not only something to do with having intense hatred for things, but being a focal point for the intense hatred of others. I believe that just by being around other Shards, their hatred for Odium grows and grows until they, essentially, corrupt and splinter themselves trying to get at Odium. He expends no energy and allows the other shards to destroy themselves trying to get at him.

...

<snip>

I think you're taking the implication that Odium's Intent is to hate and be hated a bit far. While I absolutely think Odium can emotionally influence people, (and likely had some effect on Elhokar in WoR, for instance, especially seeing it goes away when Kaladin gets near) there's significant evidence that what he does to other Shards is merely to oppose and Splinter them. (M:SH is relevant here) Odium referring to actions you take that inspire hate means he wants to have hatred running both ways for everything he touches. He contains Adonalsium's divine hatred, AND he wants to inspire hatred of himself in others. That doesn't mean he unconsciously affects the vessels of other Shards, we don't even have evidence that such a thing is possible, and there are no implications of it in the book

[Spoolofwhool]

28 minutes ago, Argel said:

I'm pretty sure we have a WoB that mentions Odium is avoiding heavily investing in a planet to avoid weakening himself. 

The WoB is that he avoids investing to get stuck to a world, because leaving after investing would weaken him I think. Anyways, that is in regards to previous cases. What is happening on Roshar is definitely different and most certainly looks like he's invested into it.

14 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

@Spoolofwhool Hm. Good points. It makes sense that, while Odium has refused to become invested in a planet in the past due to not wanting to get stuck there, since he's stuck in Greater Roshar already... Though, with him like stuck on Braize, presumably... Could a shard invest in a planet they're not on? Also... Do you think there is a possibility that Desolations have something to do with the proximity of Braize to Roshar? Like we know that a Rosharan year is 500 days. But if a Braize year is, say, 501 Rosharan days long, then (as long as my math isn't wrong, which it usually is) then the two planets would be their closest every 500 years, right? That means that there would be a lot more distance between the two planets for many of those of those 500 years. Plus a sun for several of them. I know that Desolations have to do with the Oathpact and the Heralds and all, but which so few specific details, the distance between the two planets could still have something to do with it.

Your math is only correct if the orbits are tangentially parallel but do not share a common centre (same shape, different size), only tangentially parallel in one place (like one is circular and the other is egg-shaped), or tilted axes. Otherwise, they would past closest 499 times every 500 years at a set interval. Tangentially parallel but tilted would result in two closest points in the orbits every, with a skip at the beginning of a cycle. I think. Haven't done any math yet. Would need to crunch numbers.

Don't think the distance has to do with anything. I think shards can invest in a world they aren't on, but as I said it just means that if they aren't on the world they'll have a lot less power. That or they cannot go to far from the world.

 

 

[zeppomarks]

13 minutes ago, Ari said:

I think you're taking the implication that Odium's Intent is to hate and be hated a bit far. While I absolutely think Odium can emotionally influence people, (and likely had some effect on Elhokar in WoR, for instance, especially seeing it goes away when Kaladin gets near) there's significant evidence that what he does to other Shards is merely to oppose and Splinter them. (M:SH is relevant here) Odium referring to actions you take that inspire hate means he wants to have hatred running both ways for everything he touches. He contains Adonalsium's divine hatred, AND he wants to inspire hatred of himself in others. That doesn't mean he unconsciously affects the vessels of other Shards, we don't even have evidence that such a thing is possible, and there are no implications of it in the book

I'm definitely extrapolating and assuming a ton in this theory. But that's the point for me To discover potential connections hidden within the text, as baseless as they may be. 

I figure it like this, if someone had gotten on here and explained every twist in HoA correctly using what we knew in TFE, they would have been accused of looking into it way too deeply as well, despite there being actual evidence (tenuous evidence but evidence nonetheless) for all those twists.

To be fair, I know I'm most likely way off base with my theories, but it's just so fun to consider... lol  

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Your math is only correct if the orbits are tangentially parallel but do not share a common centre (same shape, different size), only tangentially parallel in one place (like one is circular and the other is egg-shaped), or tilted axes. Otherwise, they would past closest 499 times every 500 years at a set interval. Tangentially parallel but tilted would result in two closest points in the orbits every, with a skip at the beginning of a cycle. I think. Haven't done any math yet. Would need to crunch numbers.

Yeah, you lost me. lol I have no idea off the top of my head what most of this means. I could understand if it was ELI5'd to me, but I haven't taken a Geometry class in almost 15 years. Not my strong suit. lol

I'm a language/history person, so if we ever get to a theory that takes into account the role of the American newspapers in causing the Spanish-American war or the etymology of the word "defenestration" then I'll be all over it. I think, from now on, I'll leave the mathing up to folks like you.

[zeppomarks]

19 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Don't think the distance has to do with anything. I think shards can invest in a world they aren't on, but as I said it just means that if they aren't on the world they'll have a lot less power. That or they cannot go to far from the world.

I don't know... When Harm is talking to Wax in BoM, and there is all that evil mojo trying to get at Scadrial there was like a bubble around the planet as if said evil mojo was trying to get into Harm's sphere of influence. But that's probably meaning less. Leras leaves Scadrial for a time in M:SH though, I think. Either way, with no evidence to the contrary, I think it's a little premature to discount the possibility.

[Djarskublar]

Ach sad I missed this party. I just can't help post this bit: @zeppomarks I know what your potential corrupted devotion would be... Yandere!