Jump to content

Theory: The Nightwatcher and Cultivation


Jondesu

Recommended Posts

Okay, so we have a WoB that the Nightwatcher is connected to Cultivation similarly to how the Stormfather is connected to Honor.

Quote

Q:  Is the Nightwatcher a spren of Cultivation in a similar way that the Stormfather is to Honor?
A:  The Nightwatcher is not Cultivation but is related. You're on the right track.

There's another WoB I've seen that's even more explicit, but I can't find it.  Basically, he says that the Nightwatcher is to Cultivation what the Stormfather is to Honor.  But the Stormfather isn't really Honor's spren, even though he thinks of himself that way.

He's Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow (or we might even call him Tanavast's Spren, at least Rosharans likely would, considering that's even how they'd refer to Adolnasium according to Brandon).

While Cultivation's Vessel is still alive (and I don't think we know her name, though we know it's a she), so she doesn't have a Cognitive Shadow, I think that she's able to appear in a physical form (perhaps intentionally spren-like, perhaps forced into that due to the way magic works on Roshar), and that we see not Cultivation's Intent playing out directly in the Nightwatcher, but the personality of Cultivation's Vessel.  I.E., if Cultivation's holder is named Jane, then the Stormfather is to Tanavast what the Nightwatcher is to Jane.  The Nightwatcher isn't carrying out Cultivation's Intent directly, though certainly colored by it, but rather is a glimpse into the personality of the original Vessel, who has not been completely subsumed, just like Tanavast wasn't and Odium probably hasn't been.

Just a theory, but I also asked this in a simpler way on Reddit and I'm hoping Brandon himself might weigh in (probably not since it's a bit more complex than he likes to answer there, but I had to try): Question on Reddit about the Nightwatcher and Cultivation

jW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think that we know for certain that Cultivation isn't dead. Yes, Wyndle talks about her like she is still around but Syl refers to the Stormfather in a similar manner.

 

Why are you certain that Tanavast hadn't been consumed by Honor, we don't know what he was like before and can't know if he was completely changed. As for this being even possible 

Spoiler

In SH Ati was literally described as a husk of a man, a puppet that the power of ruin had completely consumed. If a shard were to hold out I doubt it would be the split personality that you are describing and would probably be more uniform, like Sazed.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, WeiryWriter said:

Huh the below is the most recent WoB I'd seen on this topic and Brandon apperently believed that he hadn't revealed this information, thanks for the WoB.

 

INTERVIEW: Feb 16th, 2016

LITTLE WILSON

You mentioned that "half-ish" of the existing Shards are whole at the time of Shadows of Self. Is that counting splinters?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Splintered is one of the ways they are not considered whole. (He's thinking about Dominion and Devotion and says that's the opposite of whole)

LITTLE WILSON

I was thinking about shattered versus splintered, and going with shattered with Devotion and Dominion. And then splintered would be Honor separating a piece of himself to create the spren (pre-Shattering).

BRANDON SANDERSON

On Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. Things on the spiritual realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other. All those spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Yes, they're splinters of Honor, but they're still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world. There's no diminishing that. So we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole.

LITTLE WILSON

Are there any Shards we don't know of that are Shattered?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. (Zas' sister says "Four....ish...right?") Eh....Honor is gone. Devotion and Dominion are gone. There are others. The question is is Cultivation gone or not? I haven't answered that for you. There are others. So this is why I'm not going to give you answers on this.

TAGS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Blightsong said:

Huh the below is the most recent WoB I'd seen on this topic and Brandon apperently believed that he hadn't revealed this information, thanks for the WoB.

Yeah there are a number of things that Brandon has RAFO'd or thought he hadn't answered that he actually had revealed before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

I don't think that we know for certain that Cultivation isn't dead. Yes, Wyndle talks about her like she is still around but Syl refers to the Stormfather in a similar manner.

 

Why are you certain that Tanavast hadn't been consumed by Honor, we don't know what he was like before and can't know if he was completely changed. As for this being even possible 

  Reveal hidden contents

In SH Ati was literally described as a husk of a man, a puppet that the power of ruin had completely consumed. If a shard were to hold out I doubt it would be the split personality that you are describing and would probably be more uniform, like Sazed.

 

I'm not certain, and he was certainly changed by it, but Ati was in a very different situation. According to what we know, he was "a kind and generous man", not like Ruin. That drastic a difference has been theorized to cause a much more significant warping of the holder. By contrast, Hoid seems to believe that Rayse is still in control of himself, probably because his personality already fit Odium's Intent. He may not be a reliable source on that, but I think the concept seems sound. In fact, while Leras couldn't act against Preservation's mandate, it seems his personality may have been more intact, but of course that was a very different situation too.

jW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

I'm not certain, and he was certainly changed by it, but Ati was in a very different situation. According to what we know, he was "a kind and generous man", not like Ruin. That drastic a difference has been theorized to cause a much more significant warping of the holder. By contrast, Hoid seems to believe that Rayse is still in control of himself, probably because his personality already fit Odium's Intent. He may not be a reliable source on that, but I think the concept seems sound. In fact, while Leras couldn't act against Preservation's mandate, it seems his personality may have been more intact, but of course that was a very different situation too.

jW

Like I said, I doubt a vessel and its shards personality and intent wouldn't be a uniform mix, I just find it unlikely that it would be fragmented like you suggest, because we have seen nothing that indicates this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Blightsong said:

Like I said, I doubt a vessel and its shards personality and intent wouldn't be a uniform mix, I just find it unlikely that it would be fragmented like you suggest, because we have seen nothing that indicates this.

I don't know what you mean by fragmented, sorry. There's definitely a spectrum of how much the personality is changed, even if it turns out to only change over time. There isn't really a happy medium to be reached between personality and Intent, anyways, because those things are too complex for that. I definitely see indications that the Vessels of the Shards retain some of their personality in some cases and not much in others, though admittedly we're short in examples still.

jW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

I don't know what you mean by fragmented, sorry. There's definitely a spectrum of how much the personality is changed, even if it turns out to only change over time. There isn't really a happy medium to be reached between personality and Intent, anyways, because those things are too complex for that. I definitely see indications that the Vessels of the Shards retain some of their personality in some cases and not much in others, though admittedly we're short in examples still.

jW

Are you not suggesting that what the Nightwatcher is is the personality of the Vessel of Cultivation completely removed from the Intent of the shard? What I am saying is that we have not seen Vessel's have the ability to be completely separate from their shards influence. I am not saying that they can't retain parts of their personality, but that that personality isn't completely separate of the shards intent like you say but a mix of the personality and the shard's intent, with the Shards influence growing ever stronger over the personality.

 

If you are saying that the Nightwatcher is just Cultivation showing and acting on its personality, I don't think that these actions are completely untouched by the shards influence, i doubt that is possible, but if you think that this is the case then the Vessel is still using the Shard's investiture to accomplish what it does, I don't see how this is different from Nightwatcher just being Cultivation, and we know that this isn't the case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Q:  Is the Nightwatcher a spren of Cultivation in a similar way that the Stormfather is to Honor?
A:  The Nightwatcher is not Cultivation but is related. You're on the right track.

This seems like Nightwatcher is both of Honor and Cultivation. Or maybe it's just Cultivation but it was also native in Roshar Cultivation just changed Nightwatcher or whatever super-spren there was turned to Nightwatcher by Cultivation

Edited by goody153
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Blightsong said:

Are you not suggesting that what the Nightwatcher is is the personality of the Vessel of Cultivation completely removed from the Intent of the shard? What I am saying is that we have not seen Vessel's have the ability to be completely separate from their shards influence. I am not saying that they can't retain parts of their personality, but that that personality isn't completely separate of the shards intent like you say but a mix of the personality and the shard's intent, with the Shards influence growing ever stronger over the personality.

 

If you are saying that the Nightwatcher is just Cultivation showing and acting on its personality, I don't think that these actions are completely untouched by the shards influence, i doubt that is possible, but if you think that this is the case then the Vessel is still using the Shard's investiture to accomplish what it does, I don't see how this is different from Nightwatcher just being Cultivation, and we know that this isn't the case.

Nah, not untouched, just that the way the Nightwatcher works (boons and curses, almost playing tricks on people) is due to the personality of her vessel, even though obviously still with influence from the Shard. I think we're getting to see a bit of what she'd have been like before taking the Shard (but with the power to actually do more than just tricks).

jW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Nah, not untouched, just that the way the Nightwatcher works (boons and curses, almost playing tricks on people) is due to the personality of her vessel, even though obviously still with influence from the Shard. I think we're getting to see a bit of what she'd have been like before taking the Shard (but with the power to actually do more than just tricks).

jW

That makes sense, thanks for clearing that up. I think it would be funny if Honor was in love with an apparent trickster.

Edited by Blightsong
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

That makes sense, thanks for clearing that up. I think it would be funny if Honor was in love with an apparent trickster.

Wait i thought Honor and Cultivation are actually a couple.(or their vessels before/on ascension )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the Nightwatcher  was a Spren doesn't made of H&C's Investiture but changed/forged by the faith of Cultivation in the west. Like the faith in the Allmighty was based on Honor. But instead of the Stormfather, she is not a Cognitive Shadow (or to be more precise partially a Cognitive Shadow) and instead she is the same thing of the Stormfather before Honor's Splintering.

Now I can't say that those "forging" process was really natural or if H&C corrupted directly those old Spren

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While unlikely, what if Cultivation's vessel gave the shard to someone else? Then the vessel could be alive but the Cultivation shard could have later been shattered. I doubt it, but don't think we should rule it out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Argel said:

While unlikely, what if Cultivation's vessel gave the shard to someone else? Then the vessel could be alive but the Cultivation shard could have later been shattered. I doubt it, but don't think we should rule it out.

I don't think her giving the shard to another is even necessary for this to be a thing.

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 14th, 2013

HOSER

Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Tanavast is dead. Good question. However, that is as of the start of The Way of Kings.

HOSER

So he could have survived the Splintering...

BRANDON SANDERSON

He could have survived the Splintering.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...