Fistsofrage Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 The "conflict" seems simple enough to me since honorspren love the "truth" and Cryptics love excellent lies. Makes them natural enemies or gives them something to constantly argue about.
Argent he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Except that's not a "complex sort of conflict," to put it in Jasnah's words. It's about as simple as they get.
Macen he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 Lift's Darkness - whom I (and not a few others) believe to be the Herald Nalan - could be on the right track when he claims that Surgebinders make the Desolations come (faster). I wouldn't be suprised if this was true. Although, I believe this is a little misguided and possibly a manipulation of odiums. If Odium convinced (through manipulation) the Heralds that surgebinding brought about the desolations. This could spell bad news for humans when the desolation comes anyways and Heralds had actively been trying to prevent the only chance the planet has from being formed. I actually like this line of thought. It would add a whole lot of subterfuge and conspiracy into the story. More than there already is....
Argent he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 I like it too - and I don't know whether the fact that we already saw Ruin do something similar is an argument for or against this idea. On one hand, Brandon doesn't like repeating himself. On the other, Ruin and Odium are both Shards (though their Intents are not as similar as I once thought), so might be applying similar techniques or something...
Fistsofrage Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) I wouldn't be suprised if this was true. Although, I believe this is a little misguided and possibly a manipulation of odiums. If Odium convinced (through manipulation) the Heralds that surgebinding brought about the desolations. This could spell bad news for humans when the desolation comes anyways and Heralds had actively been trying to prevent the only chance the planet has from being formed. I actually like this line of thought. It would add a whole lot of subterfuge and conspiracy into the story. More than there already is.... Well, when light is present, darkness is also present. If you have a Batman, a Joker will eventually show up. So the thought that if the Radiants exist, then the Voidbringers will follow is not all wrong. I'm sure the lack of Radiants has something to do with why the desolation has been so long in coming. Edited January 22, 2014 by Fistsofrage
2dark he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Spren conflicts and division sure is interesting on their own, but I, as lurker, am more suprised about the lacking of theories of why there seems to be so much divison within the ranks of heralds. Even if half of what is theorised in these forums about the identity of the heralds is true, I find it disturbing that they seem to have as diverse and opposite goals from eachother as there can be. KR or no KR order restored, without unified heralds (Taln will live:)) the last desolation will be almost impossible to survive. I hope their conflict will be adressed throughout the SA, and in more "hands on" manner, less vague than in WoK.. Edited January 22, 2014 by 2dark
Moogle Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 KR or no KR order restored, without unified heralds (Taln will live:)) the last desolation will be almost impossible to survive. Just place your faith in Taravangian and everything will be alright. 1
Fistsofrage Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Just place your faith in Taravangian and everything will be alright. LOL. Hilarious xD
vikorr Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Except that's not a "complex sort of conflict," to put it in Jasnah's words. It's about as simple as they get. Actually, as a root cause this is fine and perfect (I have to say that - it's pretty much what I said earlier)... ...it's the outcome that can become complex. Everyone knows that Honourspren are the living embodiment of integrity - so their word carries a LOT of weight. But as with any truth - truth is dependant on what you perceive, rather than fact...and Cryptics no doubt highlight Honoursprens 'naivete' and 'lack of understanding'...while honourspren highlight Cryptics deceptiveness and label them 'lie spren'. So if you have a complex matter under debate, and : - Honourspren tell you A - which you know they absolutley believe when they tell you A, and; - Cryptics tell you B- which you believe they have the better powers to perceive and understand - but you don't know if you can trust them re B ...which sprens do you believe when the fate of the world is riding on it? And that's only one of the ways it can play out. And over time you'd find other spren taking sides...and that creates a whole set of politics in itself. Edited January 22, 2014 by vikorr 1
marianmi Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Crosspost: * Honorspren vs. Cryptics - maybe Honorspren were the lighteyes until the humans broke their oaths. Then honorspren lost their status (oaths were broken) and Cryptics rose to power (lies were told).
18th Shard he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 How like Aes Sedai are honorspren? Telling the truth can be possible while still manipulating people.
Aleksiel Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) How like Aes Sedai are honorspren? Telling the truth can be possible while still manipulating people. I think the Aes Sedai truths are Cryptics thing and that's what Pattern meant when he said 'true lies'. Some intentional misleading statements that are not straight forward lies, yet aren't completely true as well. I think Shallan's conversation with Yalb and Pattern's reaction support this: “Lies,” Pattern said. “Lies from the Yalb.” “Yes,” Shallan said with a sigh. “Yalb is far too skilled at persuasion for his own good, sometimes.” Pattern hummed softly. He seemed pleased. “You like lies?” Shallan asked. “Good lies,” Pattern said. “That lie. Good lie.” “What makes a lie good?” Shallan asked, taking careful notes, recording Pattern’s exact words. “True lies.” Edit: So, I've been thinking about it more. I believe it's on the right track. Think how Syl was attracted to Kaladin because his actions were honorable. The same way the true lies Shallan said make her perfect match for a cryptic: she told Jasnah she wanted to study which wasn't nor a lie, neither the whole truth; she said her father was dead, but hid the fact that she killed him - another true lie imo. Edited January 23, 2014 by Aleksiel 3
Dros Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 * It kind of bothers me that the Cryptics are capitalized in the book, but honorspren are not... Consider that Cryptics are referred to as liespren also; the "l" is not capitalized then. We may not have seen the formal name of honorspren. And, really, most longstanding conflicts are quite simple, but create a series of events and situations that are far more complicated than the original disagreement.
Argent he/him Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 Yea, that makes sense... But then, why do we have a formal name for the Cryptics? What makes them so special? It's probably related somehow to the fact that they are treated with reverence / respect / fear in Shadesmar, being "lighteyes" and all, but where does that come from? Maybe they are Splinters of Adonalsium, after all - it would explain their special-ness if nothing else.
WeiryWriter he/him Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 I think the Cryptics will end up being the only ones with an "alternate" name. "Cryptics" is the name they gave themselves, probably because they didn't like being named liespren. (really who would? Even if they do like true lies, it isn't a very flattering name). As for them being "lighteyes" its mentioned they rule one of the two major cities and that honorspren rule the other. So honorspren would also be considered "lighteyes." As for what that is so, perhaps it is because they are both 100% of their respective Shard, Honor and Cultivation and are "purer" because of it? 1
Aether he/him Posted January 24, 2014 Posted January 24, 2014 As for what that is so, perhaps it is because they are both 100% of their respective Shard, Honor and Cultivation and are "purer" because of it? This smacks uncomfortably of eugenics. I'd be interested to see how it is presented in the books.
QuantumHarmonix he/him Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Isn't the distinction between light-eyes and dark-eyes already pretty close to eugenics?
don_karma_II he/him Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 "The Cryptics have a fearful reputation" - Jasnah, Chapter 3 WoR Fearful reputation among sprens? Are they notorious amongst sprens?
Aether he/him Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Isn't the distinction between light-eyes and dark-eyes already pretty close to eugenics? Eugenics literally means "racial hygiene". While there is some heavy racial separation and discrimination going on on Roshar, there is still a little way to go from "more fit to rule" to "purer". It is possible to use both to do some gruesome things, of course, but the road to a racial cleansing is somewhat shorter from the latter one.
Dros Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Fun, and not Cosmere related, fact: North Carolina just had to pay out on a lawsuit associated with Eugenics. It was associated with sterilizing African American citizens. Pretty sick stuff.
Aether he/him Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Care to elaborate? I'd be interested in reading more about the case.
Dros Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 You can read about it at the links below. I was working in NC until May of 2013, that's why I was aware of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_Board_of_North_Carolina http://rt.com/usa/north-carolina-eugenics-program-932/ It was a law meant to sterilize mentally defective persons. 1
Maresia he/him Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) "The Cryptics have a fearful reputation" - Jasnah, Chapter 3 WoR Fearful reputation among sprens? Are they notorious amongst sprens? i think thats because they require truths in "exchange" of power. And if a "society" of sprens have all the truths in the world... well, thats really dangerous. And i dont really think they have laws about cofindetiality. Probably they forget all the things about the last nahel bond they made, but you know what happens when the new nahel bond get stronger. They start remembering things. All sort of things could go wrong with that kind of information. also, the truths required are "heavy" truths, incriminating and disgusting truths Edited January 25, 2014 by Maresia 1
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