How strong would a Nicrosil Twinborn be?

[Shadeshadow227]

Okay, so, imagine you are a Nicrosil Twinborn. Nicrosil being Feruchemical. The allomantic metal doesn't matter in this case.

You burn your metal, storing the Investiture. You burn, and store, the average amount of metal an allomancer like you burns. Of course, factoring in how fast metals burn, the amount varies. A Slider may need more bendalloy than a Coinshot needs steel, because Bendalloy burns faster.

You later tap that Investiture, burning the metal already in your stomach, which is about the same as what you stored. Determining the resulting power of your steelpush, soothing, speed bubbling, whatever your metal is, is a simple matter of addition. 1+1=2. Thus, you can double the power of your allomancy. Simple.

Now what if you managed to get your hands on an unkeyed Nicromind, with a ridiculous amount of Investiture? Let's say...2000 times what you'd normally store. The addition would then go like this: 2000 (the Investiture stored.)+1 (the metal in your stomach.). Thus, you'd be able to multiply your power by 2001...but is there an upper limit to how much Investiture you can withdraw at once while burning? Does it simply give a stronger flared effect, your power eventually capped? Or does it remove this limit? If the second one is correct, then...Feruchemical Nicrosil and any allomantic metal twinborns would be immensely powerful. Imagine steelpushing BUILDINGS (Of course, you most likely wouldn't survive due to the backlash driving you into the dirt like a nail through butter.), Rioting or Soothing entire cities, travelling 1000 years into the future with Cadmium...Imagine compounding Nicrosil and tapping a Coinshot on the arm...

I ask you...

How strong would a Nicrosil Twinborn be?

[Yata]

You will able at full power to reach TLR Allomancy's power.

I don't know how much you are capable of keep those power level... But as far as I know you will probably reach the TLR's level and not beyond. (TLR made himself as strong as it's possible to be as Allomancer)

Edited July 29, 2016 by Yata

[Radiant Returned]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

But as far as I know you will probably reach the TLR's level and not beyond. (TLR made himself as strong as it's possible to be as Allomancer)

To be fair, we never really saw TLR go full boss-mode, fight as hard as he could. So we still don't know how much he was able to do. 

[Yata]

7 minutes ago, Radiant Returned said:

To be fair, we never really saw TLR go full boss-mode, fight as hard as he could. So we still don't know how much he was able to do. 

You have right but I talked about TLR theoric Full Power. He remade himself to be the most powerful stable allomancer he could and then he developed Savantism as far as it's possible. (it's like Rand Al'Thor in the WoT, He is the Archtype of the perfect Channeler, the others may simply got closer or reach his power, they can't be more powerful than him).

Edited July 29, 2016 by Yata

[Oversleep]

I talked about upper limit here: (BoM spoilers, duh)

(the Mistpoint section)

 

[Shadeshadow227]

Oh, the "mistpoint" thing? What Wax did was similar to what Vin did in HoA, except for one thing. Vin ascended afterwards. She had that power because Preservation chose her as it's shardholder after Leras died. Wax had that power because TLR stored a metric crapton of Investiture, and cleverly utilized Feruchemy to make it accessible to anyone who needed it. "Mistpoint" was different for both of them.

Step 1 Vin: lose Hemalurgic spike, allowing Preservation's power to invade her being. Step 2 Vin: Uses extremely heightened power to destroy Inquisitors. Step 3 Vin: Ascension.

Step 1 Wax: Taps the Bands. Step 2 Wax: uses extremely heightened power to defeat enemies. Step 3 Wax: returns to normal after he stops tapping the Bands.

Step 2 was identical. Steps 1 & 3 were not. Vin's Mistpoint was stronger than Wax's. Reason? Vin's was the power of a Shard running through her. Wax's was only part of said Shard's power. This is the maximum we know of. Someone could be born a Full Feruchemist, swallow a bead of Lerasium, and live LONGER than TLR using Atium Compounding...if a deposit of Atium could be found large enough...or found at all. And said TLR 2 could store more than TLR 1 did. Thus making a more powerful Bands. So there is effectively no limit. Because...1: Vin's wasn't limited by reserve amount. 2: there COULD be a more powerful Bands. And 3: We truly don't know the effects of tapping TOO MUCH Investiture. The limit is when whatever happens when tapping too much Investiture...happens. And if nothing happens, you don't suddenly Ascend, there effectively is no limit.

[Yata]

Vin ascended because after reaching the Mistpoint she continue to gain Investiture and power. The whole power of BoM it's nothing but a meaningful fraction of what Vin absorbed.

Did you mean the Sovrereign right ? TLR didn't create the BoM and much more He was aganist the spread of godlike power.

Anyway I don't understand the last part, whaterver swallow a Lerasium bead would be a weaker allomancer than Rashek and in the end uncapable of live longer than TLR with Atium Compound. About the BoM's power... The Power-level of the creator is meaningless, with Nicrosil Compound you will reach the same upperlimit (maybe a regolar Fullborn needs 2 weeks of compound while TLR needs only 4 days but the outcome is the same).

PS: There is a limit of how much Investiture you may tapping before your body will destroied... You will only hope that you are connected to an unlimited source of power that sustain your mind in a astral form.

[Shadeshadow227]

58 minutes ago, Yata said:

Vin ascended because after reaching the Mistpoint she continue to gain Investiture and power. The whole power of BoM it's nothing but a meaningful fraction of what Vin absorbed.

Did you mean the Sovrereign right ? TLR didn't create the BoM and much more He was aganist the spread of godlike power.

Anyway I don't understand the last part, whaterver swallow a Lerasium bead would be a weaker allomancer than Rashek and in the end uncapable of live longer than TLR with Atium Compound. About the BoM's power... The Power-level of the creator is meaningless, with Nicrosil Compound you will reach the same upperlimit (maybe a regolar Fullborn needs 2 weeks of compound while TLR needs only 4 days but the outcome is the same).

PS: There is a limit of how much Investiture you may tapping before your body will destroied... You will only hope that you are connected to an unlimited source of power that sustain your mind in a astral form.

No one has all Allomantic and Feruchemical abilities aside from TLR. And how would they be weaker? Rashek was that strong because of either Nicrosil or Duralumin. If there was actually a Fullborn, than they'd be as powerful as him. The Sovereign has to have been TLR. As, there are no Fullborns aside from him, and thus no one to make the BoM. And where did you get this info? Vin ascended because Preservation chose her as it's shardholder. And why wouldn't he create the BoM? He obviously planned for himself to die eventually, thus the caches found later on. The BoM were created so that the people could fight with his power after he was gone. And, the reason why he didn't want Fullborns was so that they wouldn't challenge and kill him. And, please, enlighten me. Where did you hear that tapping too much Investiture would destroy you? Directly from Brandon? Mere speculation is just that: speculation. Anything less than Brandon's own words, or the words of someone who actually knows, I simply can't accept, because they may be wrong. Sorry, but your rebuttal is full of holes.

[Yata]

Sorry but before to continue with this post I have to ask you. Did you read BoM or simply gather information from Coppermind or something like that ? Because man, you misunderstood some very important parts and if you don't want to recive Spoiler avoid to continue to read this post of mine.

- Rashek so far we know don't used Nicrosil Compound, He has no Nicrosil (unknown metal) in his body and it would be impossible to him to produce more Nicrosil because Scadrial tech wasn't developed enough to mine Chromium (it's the reason no one never discover to be a Leecher in the Final Empire).

- Rashek was above the level of a Lerasium Mistborn of his own, with the power of the Wll He "re-build" himself at the top of the possible allomantic power. Elend would be below to Rashek in raw power also if Rashek doesn't use this feruchemical side.

- This is a BIG SPOILER: The Sovrerign wasn't Rashek, but another guy who exploit Hemalurgy to create Medallions' tech and the BoM. Rashek died when Vin killed him, those other guy went to the Southern after years...and you see him in the last (I think) chapter of the book, when Wax retrive his arrive to the southern from a Coppermind)

About the last part, tapping too much invasive Investiture may damage you. It's actually how the Savantism is developed.. The Stream of Preservation power erodes your Spiritweb... This giftes you an improved power but it's actually a spiritual damage who force your body to adapt to it. Your body soon or later would be damaged by it and in an extreme measure it may be destroyed.

As example: When Spook became a Mistborn, Sazed also removed the Savantism from him, like He removed every genetic problem, wound, infection and other health problem from the survivors in the vaults.

[Magestar]

Shade, Yata is right.  Also, you should probably read Secret History.  If you have, then you missed some kind of important things.  Same with BoM.  The investiture/damage/savantism thing, I cannot find a WoB for, but I'm pretty sure it is entirely accurate.

It is still possible that TLR created the BoM; it is unlikely.  It is mostly discounted by now.  It is thought that the Sovereign made the Bands; but before I go further you should tell us if you have read BoM and M;SH.  

It is also not that hard to make the BoM with some nicrosil hacks, and Hemalurgy.  I suggest you look into this a little more, as there are several threads on the subject.  

And finally,  I personally think that 'too much' investiture is when you have more than the shard who's power you are using.  At this point,  your spirit web is 'eaten' by the power, and you become it.  If you keep a steady stream of that investiture, it will 'eat' parts of you spirit web, damaging you, but you need it to 'eat' all of your spirit web at once to ascend.  This, in my opinion, is why Wax did not ascend.  He leaked mist because he could not use all of it.  This theory has some holes, but it is my best guess.

[Oversleep]

@Shadeshadow227

How about you actually look for WoBs instead of claiming it's all 'speculation'?

Quote

When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just thatusing the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itselfto fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.
link

There was a better WoB on this, but I can't find it. It talked about something like "so much power destroys the body" and that the reason that Vin didn't die was because it transformed her (cause she Ascended).

(BoM spoilers)

 

And by the way, judging by what you wrote, I'd suggest rereading BoM. Or just last two pages.

And I'd agree that Wax could be a little weaker than Vin burning mists. After all, he stopped at the point that he started emitting mist; has he gone further than that and the power would start destroying him. That's why I named it Mistpoint - much like boiling point, it's the boundary which should you cross you start to change state. Vin has gone further with burning mists and they were actually continuously detroying her body until she vaporized and Ascended.

 

Edited March 11, 2017 by Oversleep

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

And I'd agree that Wax could be a little weaker than Vin burning mists. After all, he stopped at the point that he started emitting mist; has he gone further than that and the power would start destroying him. That's why I named it Mistpoint - much like boiling point, it's the boundary which should you cross you start to change state. Vin has gone further with burning mists and they were actually continuously detroying her body until she vaporized and Ascended.

I think He probably fel the danger to tap more Nicrosil. Maybe not consious but while you held those level of power...Your intuite about magic have to be at his peak.

[Stormgate]

Back on track...I believe a Nicrosil Compounder could burn the iron out of a Coinshot's or Lurcher's blood. Maybe just a Lurcher's, though.

[Assassin in Burgundy]

Kinda random, but would a Nicrosil Compounder be able to push/pull on the iron inside someone's blood?

[Yata]

4 minutes ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

Kinda random, but would a Nicrosil Compounder be able to push/pull on the iron inside someone's blood?

Quite surelly, after all we saw Wax pick the metal's traces inside other humans while He held the BoM.

I am very unsure about burning your own Iron in bloodstream. First of all it's a very stupid things to do, you may kill yourself with free gas in the bloodstream. But here we talk about the ability to do, not if it's a smart or stupid idea.... The Iron in the blood is bonded with others substances... I don't know if it may be still aviable Allomantic iron

Edited July 30, 2016 by Yata

[Shadeshadow227]

10 hours ago, Yata said:

Sorry but before to continue with this post I have to ask you. Did you read BoM or simply gather information from Coppermind or something like that ? Because man, you misunderstood some very important parts and if you don't want to recive Spoiler avoid to continue to read this post of mine.

- Rashek so far we know don't used Nicrosil Compound, He has no Nicrosil (unknown metal) in his body and it would be impossible to him to produce more Nicrosil because Scadrial tech wasn't developed enough to mine Chromium (it's the reason no one never discover to be a Leecher in the Final Empire).

- Rashek was above the level of a Lerasium Mistborn of his own, with the power of the Wll He "re-build" himself at the top of the possible allomantic power. Elend would be below to Rashek in raw power also if Rashek doesn't use this feruchemical side.

- This is a BIG SPOILER: The Sovrerign wasn't Rashek, but another guy who exploit Hemalurgy to create Medallions' tech and the BoM. Rashek died when Vin killed him, those other guy went to the Southern after years...and you see him in the last (I think) chapter of the book, when Wax retrive his arrive to the southern from a Coppermind)

About the last part, tapping too much invasive Investiture may damage you. It's actually how the Savantism is developed.. The Stream of Preservation power erodes your Spiritweb... This giftes you an improved power but it's actually a spiritual damage who force your body to adapt to it. Your body soon or later would be damaged by it and in an extreme measure it may be destroyed.

As example: When Spook became a Mistborn, Sazed also removed the Savantism from him, like He removed every genetic problem, wound, infection and other health problem from the survivors in the vaults.

I read BoM...although I probably need to reread it. The last time I read it was in April. The Sovereign wasn't a Fullborn, but rather a Hemalurgist? ...that makes sense. He rebuilt himself to be better at the Metallic Arts? I never read about that. Is it from a WoB? That would explain how I didn't know. Or am I just unobservant? And TLR could have had Nicrominds. Depends on whether the Terris knew about Nicrosil feruchemically or not. And I know Savantism damages the spiritweb. I just didn't think it would be possible to completely destroy it. Guess I need to read BoM again. And probably Mistborn: Secret History too. Sorry.

Mistpoint aside...how awesome would being a Nicrosil Twinborn be? Even Allomantic Gold could be useful for showing how you could have lived. Although Aluminum would still be useless.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Shadeshadow227

[Yata]

10 hours ago, Shadeshadow227 said:

I read BoM...although I probably need to reread it. The last time I read it was in April. The Sovereign wasn't a Fullborn, but rather a Hemalurgist?

He used the Hemalurgy and the help of a Mistborn, old Inquisitors' Spikes and (I think) some Feruchemist/Ferring from the first generation after the end of Ash-World.

To be honest I don't know if the Feruchemical Side of BoM's power cames from a Full Feruchemist and in the end, it's possible that some Feruchemical Abilities aren't in the Bands (if you use only Ferring power or Hemalurgy you can't obtain all the range of possibilities).

10 hours ago, Shadeshadow227 said:

He rebuilt himself to be better at the Metallic Arts? I never read about that. Is it from a WoB? That would explain how I didn't know. Or am I just unobservant?

I may swear we have a WoB about but I can't find right now. Sorry, just he didn't became a better Allomancer, he rebuilt himself directly from a Full Feruchemist to a Godlike FullBorn (I use "godlike" for his high raw allomantic power).

10 hours ago, Shadeshadow227 said:

And TLR could have had Nicrominds. Depends on whether the Terris knew about Nicrosil feruchemically or not.

Wait, TLR knowed about Nicrosil, He learn a tons of information about the Metallic Arts in his Ascension (and maybe but unlikely they may have know the Nicrosil before). He may also create some ready Nicrosil with the power of the Well. The problem here, it's the Nicrosil wasn't found in his corpse. And in the end the Nicrosil to him was a real treat more than a tool to use. A simple thief may ruin his whole empire. A Mistborn with Chromium may defeat any Inquisitor and some Mistings with Nicrosil and for example Steel may replicate TLR's feats.

10 hours ago, Shadeshadow227 said:

And I know Savantism damages the spiritweb. I just didn't think it would be possible to completely destroy it. Guess I need to read BoM again. And probably Mistborn: Secret History too. Sorry.

Probably in the standard level and in a lifetime the savantism can't destroy you. But we was talking about theory. It took a godlike power to destroy a body with passive raw Investiture.

 

Gold and Nicrosil ?... well I think you may began to have some serious insanity if you abuse of that combination, but less than the mental stress that an Feruchemical nicrosil and Allomantic electrum may start

Edited July 31, 2016 by Yata

[Shadeshadow227]

...I have a question. What would happen if someone lined up a bunch of Nicrobursts, and put a Nicrosil Compounder at the beginning, with a Coinshot at the end? Would it cause a chain reaction large enough to throw Scadrial out of orbit? Also, what exactly would happen if you Nicrobursted a Nicroburst?

[Yata]

3 hours ago, Shadeshadow227 said:

...I have a question. What would happen if someone lined up a bunch of Nicrobursts, and put a Nicrosil Compounder at the beginning, with a Coinshot at the end? Would it cause a chain reaction large enough to throw Scadrial out of orbit? Also, what exactly would happen if you Nicrobursted a Nicroburst?

I don't think it would be a great improvement.

The Durallumin/Nicrosil fearsom effect is to compress a long burning time in some istants. Maybe using a multiple Nicrobusted may compress the power a bit more...But It would be a real marginal improvement.

Numbers as example of power output:

regolar burn: 10, Flare: 20, Durallumin/Nicroburst Flare: 100, Multiple Duraluminium Flare: 110-120.

Remember also that have more power for a less time may be useless. Ok for Steel and Iron, but actually the power burst may be to short to be useful with other Metals (for example pewter)

[Oversleep]

I believe we once discussed the Nicroburst chain reaction... I can't remember then thread's name, though.

[Shadeshadow227]

...what would the effects be in someone burned gold and tapped a large amount of Investiture?

[Kingsdaughter613]

At a guess, going by what happened with someone and Malatium, I'd say you'd probably see the instance of divergence. That's a total guess though.