spieles Posted July 25, 2016 Report Share Posted July 25, 2016 (edited) So this is my revised chapter 2. I got feedback last time round that after the prologue and chapter 1 - another action chapter was A LOT, and also the bomb sequence with the caravan was B material - and I want this to be a A+ stuff - so readers weren't engaged until the Brides showed up - so now they show up right at the start- and one of our potential villains is immediately present. Anyway, some questions.... - I'm trying to make the Rex scarier but less in a zombie/monster way and more of a cold-blooded social darwinist way, and so the description of the whale rat at the beginning of the chapter is supposed to tie into that theme on a creepy worldbuilding level. Does it work or are you just bored out of your mind? (Also, it's supposed to be a moment where Oz takes a breath of air - only to wonder if he should be doing that. LOL) - Eleanor's interest in Oz is more overt here. Better or worse? - I want Oz to be less competent in these early chapters so that he can be more competent later (GROWTH!) - again, does that decrease your interest or cramp it? - for those that have read both version, is this better? Edited July 25, 2016 by spieles 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamon he/him Posted July 25, 2016 Report Share Posted July 25, 2016 Overall: Yes, I'm engaged with the Brides. Not sure who is the villain? Krieger? On Rex: there weren't any really present here, but I scanned through the first chapter and they seem more rational, but still good enemies. I also like the worldbuilding with the whale rat. I don't think it slows things down too much, and it's good to see what animal life survived and how. Didn't directly see Oz being less competent, but I will look for it. I like Elanor's introduction here. The tags you've put on her (she OWNS a city) mean I will remember her character better. So yes, I think this version is better. Notes while reading: pg 2: "The Brides are going to see me...Not a second later a trio of Brides pass in front of me." --(C) I assume Oz is hiding somewhere, which is why the brides don't see him? Unclear. pg 3: (C?) Interesting lack of reaction to Oz not wearing a mask. I'm not sure if I should be surprised at this point in the story or not, since this is an earlier chapter. pg 6: (A) ok--better introduction of Eleanor, and this explains the lack of reaction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski he/him Posted July 25, 2016 Report Share Posted July 25, 2016 Some details below, but overall I felt it was a decent chapter, but I wouldn’t go to A+ though. One great improvement though was him sliding into the vehicle with not mention of a ‘chute’ in sight – hurrah! I'm trying to make the Rex scarier ... the description of the whale rat... is supposed to tie into that theme on a creepy world-building level – I thought whale rate and deer mouse were silly. Rex scarier? I couldn’t tell any difference. Eleanor's interest in Oz is more overt here – I thought it was so brief that it didn’t really impact, and her saying sorry was just confusing. I want Oz to be less competent in these early chapters so that he can be more competent later – He doesn’t really do anything in this chapter, so I get no real sense of his competence or otherwise. Honestly, I preferred the previous one. I can’t make any sense why the general of the world is here, or going on an away mission at all. Previously, it was just Penton, but now you have two really important people in the one APC? It makes no sense tactically. In fact, it’s every bit as crazy as Kirk and Spock going on landing parties together. (No, they are not called away missions in the Original Series). Sorry, I don’t feel that I’ve helped that much. <R> --------------------------------------------- “berserker” – Meh, this term seems a bit casual in the context of this story. You could have made up a cool new name, but we get an old fantasy standard that’s been knocking around for decades. The rats mutated?! Really, that’s all apocryphal, isn’t it? That stuff doesn’t wouldn’t actually happen – I mean with such a blatant and dramatic mutation? And what, where did the skink come from? This thing with the snake and the rate and the mouse and the skink is weird, and I think there was a whale and a deer too. “light and fleet” – kind of mean the same thing, don’t they? Seems repetitive. “the visor on her helmet is down” – I would think this means the visor is in place, and would retract upward to sit on the top of her helmet. If the visor retracts down the way, her breath might mist it up. “Her brows shoot up, but she mostly looks amused” – Here’s one of these imprecise words I'm trying to stop using. They create doubt and a lack of confidence in the image – I would drop it or, if you're keeping it, put it after ‘but’. “It’s a skateboard that uses the magnite rail” “at the same time that the other woman says”, also “I did, and it’s fine—” “never even seen an single upgrade” – too many words here, I think. Could drop ‘even’ instead. “at least two are really hot” – to me, Oz’s voice is very sober and serious for a boy his age – this comment seems out of character. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted July 25, 2016 Report Share Posted July 25, 2016 Always glad to see you subbing here, @spieles! Overall Hmmm. It's more succinct now, for sure. It's lost voice in places, which sticks out more when voice does appear, like Oz making a comment about how hot a few of the brides are. It's nice to see the villain immediately, and I like her sickness addition. I really liked the start with the rat and the world building. Your Questions rat - loved it. Great world building to add, and really grounds the whole situation Elanor's interest - good, but could be even more I feel. Like, she could reach out to touch his face, then pull back at the last moment and Oz could be all confused about it. Or pull away and think about crazy old ladies. Oz' competence: I don't know how I feel about the downgrade. He does have a lot more room for growth now, so it is probably a solid move. I'm conflicted. Which version better? Will you punch me if I say I like elements from both? I like a lot of the anchors of this one, but miss the richness of the other. I think this one is on the right track and could just use some fluffing, if that makes sense. As I go - 'berserker' - because so much of this novel is grounded in science, the use of this word is jarring. It would be useful if it was defined prior, or explained here, or even just changed to something less anime. Consider words like: rabid, deranged, etc - love the rat aside! - page 2: would love just a bit more imagery description of the Brides. This part has always been the first hook for me in your book, and I'm forever fascinated by the Brides. Just a sentence or two more about them would go a long way - page 2: "at least two are really hot" LOL! Oz is definitely younger here 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spieles Posted July 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2016 11 hours ago, Mandamon said: Overall: Yes, I'm engaged with the Brides. Not sure who is the villain? Krieger? Yes, all of the Board members are eventually suspect, but I felt it gave Krieger more space to show up in the middle of the action. Hopefully? LOL. On Rex: there weren't any really present here, but I scanned through the first chapter and they seem more rational, but still good enemies. I also like the worldbuilding with the whale rat. I don't think it slows things down too much, and it's good to see what animal life survived and how. That's an accurate assessment. And I find evolutionary Darwinism fascinating, and I read The World Without Us - which discusses how quickly species adapt to available niches and realized that it wouldn't just be the bugs and reptiles that survived. There would be some exceptional little species... Didn't directly see Oz being less competent, but I will look for it. Yeah, right now it's subtle. In the previous version he "took out" the first Rex who attacked him and then he builds a trigger for the bombs on the spot. He also knocks the soda machine on the Rex and then shoots him before beating the "best Bride", Claire. In this version, he fights and defends himself but never really gains the upper hand. My other critique group harped on this a lot more. They said the Rex were too easily defeated and the Brides seemed incompetent with Claire as a representation.. I like Elanor's introduction here. The tags you've put on her (she OWNS a city) mean I will remember her character better. So yes, I think this version is better.cool and thank you for your line by lines below. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spieles Posted July 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2016 5 hours ago, Robinski said: Some details below, but overall I felt it was a decent chapter, but I wouldn’t go to A+ though. One great improvement though was him sliding into the vehicle with not mention of a ‘chute’ in sight – hurrah! Hah. Eleanor's interest in Oz is more overt here – I thought it was so brief that it didn’t really impact, and her saying sorry was just confusing. Yeah, I think Kaisa's suggestion about a weird affectionate moment might add something needed. I want Oz to be less competent in these early chapters so that he can be more competent later – He doesn’t really do anything in this chapter, so I get no real sense of his competence or otherwise. Honestly, I preferred the previous one. I can’t make any sense why the general of the world is here, or going on an away mission at all. Previously, it was just Penton, but now you have two really important people in the one APC? It makes no sense tactically. LOL. The Kirk/Spock thing is a good point, though that thought never occurred to me while watching the show. Not once. --------------------------------------------- “berserker” – Meh, this term seems a bit casual in the context of this story. You could have made up a cool new name, but we get an old fantasy standard that’s been knocking around for decades. There's a specific reason that I'm using it right now - because of drugged induced war rage which takes a Rex back to "their break" - but as I write this I'm wondering if Oz should even know what a berserker is at this point. Might be better to just say some synonymous equivalent of a "big scary Rex." The rats mutated?! Really, that’s all apocryphal, isn’t it? That stuff doesn’t wouldn’t actually happen. It actually is happening right now. I just read a book on this. LOL. Wildlife has found a refuge in the Chernobyl site - humans leave the area be, obviously - and radiation has the weird effect of destabilizing the genome, making 90% of offspring weaker so they're more likely to be eaten up by other predators, but the radiation also speeds up reproduction. And so if a niche opened with so much species death, it's actually kind of insane to imagine that other animals/creatures wouldn't rush to fill the niche. So in this story, creatures like deer mice, which survive at high altitudes with little oxygen - got a few genetic switches that allowed them to swiftly fill the open niche - they would spread like mad. This is why I asked if it was boring... I got a little excited when the science was laid out. LOL. “light and fleet” – kind of mean the same thing, don’t they? Seems repetitive. Point. “the visor on her helmet is down” – I would think this means the visor is in place, and would retract upward to sit on the top of her helmet. If the visor retracts down the way, her breath might mist it up. “Her brows shoot up, but she mostly looks amused” – Here’s one of these imprecise words I'm trying to stop using. They create doubt and a lack of confidence in the image – I would drop it or, if you're keeping it, put it after ‘but’. “It’s a skateboard that uses the magnite rail” “at the same time that the other woman says”, also “I did, and it’s fine—” “never even seen an single upgrade” – too many words here, I think. Could drop ‘even’ instead. “at least two are really hot” – to me, Oz’s voice is very sober and serious for a boy his age – this comment seems out of character. Yeah, I've been so so on it. I'm trying to think of a modification that still suits him. There's no way a guy who barely sees girls near his own age wouldn't notice a whole lot of attractive women. LBLS - thank you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spieles Posted July 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2016 2 hours ago, kaisa said: Overall Hmmm. It's more succinct now, for sure. It's lost voice in places, which sticks out more when voice does appear, like Oz making a comment about how hot a few of the brides are. It's nice to see the villain immediately, and I like her sickness addition. I really liked the start with the rat and the world building. Your Questions rat - loved it. Great world building to add, and really grounds the whole situation. Cool. Elanor's interest - good, but could be even more I feel. Like, she could reach out to touch his face, then pull back at the last moment and Oz could be all confused about it. Or pull away and think about crazy old ladies. I like this idea. He's already heard stories that she's off her rocker, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch if she made a move that was weirdly affectionate. It would raise all of the good red flags for the reader. Oz' competence: I don't know how I feel about the downgrade. He does have a lot more room for growth now, so it is probably a solid move. I'm conflicted. Yeah, I'm not sure it should be obvious in these earlier chapters, but in later chapters it creates more room for growth. Which version better? Will you punch me if I say I like elements from both? I like a lot of the anchors of this one, but miss the richness of the other. I think this one is on the right track and could just use some fluffing, if that makes sense. Yeah, gotta fluff. As I go - 'berserker' - because so much of this novel is grounded in science, the use of this word is jarring. It would be useful if it was defined prior, or explained here, or even just changed to something less anime. Consider words like: rabid, deranged, etc. Yeah, I'm going to play with this. It's building into a world building element that I'm trying out on the later Rex chapters but it's not concrete yet. - page 2: would love just a bit more imagery description of the Brides. This part has always been the first hook for me in your book, and I'm forever fascinated by the Brides. Just a sentence or two more about them would go a long way Yesssss. - page 2: "at least two are really hot" LOL! Oz is definitely younger here Yeah, I feel like he is less mature when it comes to girls. Still, it does seem like a deviation from the rest of his voice... Thank you my dear! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdpulfer he/him Posted July 30, 2016 Report Share Posted July 30, 2016 - Can't remember what's new or not, but Oz's inexperience comes out in this chapter, which I really like. - Not sure about the awkward exchange with General Kreiger where she says she should answer her question, but didn't actually ask a question. It feels really odd, and it doesn't feel out of the ordinary for Oz to stay silent in this situation. - Overall, it reads a lot smoother. It's a little weird for me to re-read it so long after reading Chapter One, but I think the details are a lot stronger and smoother for the most part, even if some of the character interaction is a bit weird. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spieles Posted August 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) On 7/30/2016 at 0:07 PM, rdpulfer said: - Not sure about the awkward exchange with General Kreiger where she says she should answer her question, but didn't actually ask a question. It feels really odd, and it doesn't feel out of the ordinary for Oz to stay silent in this situation. Yeah, I concur on this. In part, I think Krieger just says too many words for an exchange like this. The line just doesn't read right. I went through and tried to fix. Quote - Overall, it reads a lot smoother. It's a little weird for me to re-read it so long after reading Chapter One, but I think the details are a lot stronger and smoother for the most part, even if some of the character interaction is a bit weird. Oh, good. Yeah, fixing that and then doing the suggestion that Kaisa made with Eleanor awkwardly showing affectionate I think will help sooo much. Thank you so much for your thoughts and feedback! Edited August 1, 2016 by spieles 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krystalynn03 she/her Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 Hey Spieles! I reread the prologue and chapter one as a refresher. I don't know if you changed anything since last time, but whereas the first time I read it, I felt really lost, this time, it made a lot more sense, which tells me that the background knowledge we get as the book gets on in chapters is lacking some here. I know you want to ramp the action and hook the reader in the prologue and chapter 1 (no complaints on prologue as far as confusion goes at all) but there are some moments in chapter one where I still felt confused. I still wanted to know where Oz learned to make the bombs (like is it part of training in an aggressive future society or did he teach himself or...?) I think a phrase would have fixed this for me--no info bomb or intense worldbuilding needed. It could come through as internal dialogue--like this is his first time trying it out and he's worried about it. Another place I felt confused was the blocking as we leave the diner. It reads like he magically aparates out into the street--or maybe the description of the diner already had him in the street and that knowledge was just in his head. Either way, it feels weird. The running-away sequence of blocking still feels weird. It's the only place where I felt bored. I couldn't tell what his intent was--running away, yes, but does he have a specific path in mind he's trying to execute? An entire paragraph of stream of conscience running and description didn't work for me well either time I read it. Now on to the stuff you asked about: Firstly, I don't even miss what's gone. I don't even know what's gone. I didn't understand that part of chapter 2 in the same way I don't quite 'get' the escape sequence in chapter 1. I think this reads fast and good and clear. The whale rat was a great addition; it's one of those minor things that doesn't take up a lot of room and doesn't seem important but it serves a lot of purposes. It slowed down the plot and gave Oz a moment to 'breathe' and so did the reader, which we needed, and it gave me a moment as a reader to see my inferences about the world confirmed through a moment of reflection on a strange animal. I like it. I got that 'in the know' reader feeling that's so satisfying while I read Eleanore's bits--I thought the 'I'm sorry' felt a little clunky, though. I think you make that a little stronger somehow, even if it's just to give Oz a sarcastic response in his head or something to the comment or just change it to something a little less obvious. It just felt like stretching--to me. Whether Oz's level of skill is higher or lower, I'm not sure because of confusion issues with the previous version. This version reads clearer so I like it better. Also, he came off as a little cocky to me before but I can't really file this down to a very specific opinion because it's a memory of a vague impression. All in all, I thought this was very good. It reads like a movie and feels like something that could already be on the shelves. Always a pleasure to read. /k 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spieles Posted August 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 On 8/3/2016 at 9:48 AM, krystalynn03 said: Hey Spieles! I reread the prologue and chapter one as a refresher. I don't know if you changed anything since last time, but whereas the first time I read it, I felt really lost, this time, it made a lot more sense, which tells me that the background knowledge we get as the book gets on in chapters is lacking some here. I know you want to ramp the action and hook the reader in the prologue and chapter 1 (no complaints on prologue as far as confusion goes at all) but there are some moments in chapter one where I still felt confused. I still wanted to know where Oz learned to make the bombs (like is it part of training in an aggressive future society or did he teach himself or...?) I think a phrase would have fixed this for me--no info bomb or intense worldbuilding needed. It could come through as internal dialogue--like this is his first time trying it out and he's worried about it. Another place I felt confused was the blocking as we leave the diner. It reads like he magically aparates out into the street--or maybe the description of the diner already had him in the street and that knowledge was just in his head. Either way, it feels weird. The running-away sequence of blocking still feels weird. It's the only place where I felt bored. I couldn't tell what his intent was--running away, yes, but does he have a specific path in mind he's trying to execute? An entire paragraph of stream of conscience running and description didn't work for me well either time I read it. Now on to the stuff you asked about: Firstly, I don't even miss what's gone. I don't even know what's gone. I didn't understand that part of chapter 2 in the same way I don't quite 'get' the escape sequence in chapter 1. I think this reads fast and good and clear. The whale rat was a great addition; it's one of those minor things that doesn't take up a lot of room and doesn't seem important but it serves a lot of purposes. It slowed down the plot and gave Oz a moment to 'breathe' and so did the reader, which we needed, and it gave me a moment as a reader to see my inferences about the world confirmed through a moment of reflection on a strange animal. I like it. I got that 'in the know' reader feeling that's so satisfying while I read Eleanore's bits--I thought the 'I'm sorry' felt a little clunky, though. I think you make that a little stronger somehow, even if it's just to give Oz a sarcastic response in his head or something to the comment or just change it to something a little less obvious. It just felt like stretching--to me. Whether Oz's level of skill is higher or lower, I'm not sure because of confusion issues with the previous version. This version reads clearer so I like it better. Also, he came off as a little cocky to me before but I can't really file this down to a very specific opinion because it's a memory of a vague impression. All in all, I thought this was very good. It reads like a movie and feels like something that could already be on the shelves. Always a pleasure to read. /k You make a really good point about the bomb-knowledge needing a little bit "more." I could even add in a line where he questions his "process" and that would show competence while also giving the reader extra information and keeping the plot rolling forward. Yeah, he's already out in the street by the time the chapter starts but that could also be clearer. Blocking is not my strong point... I like to cut it. LOL. Definitely fixing Eleanor's "I'm sorry" - there seems to be a good consenses there and I like Kaisa's suggestion. And yay! You like the whale rat. I think what you said about the "breather" makes a lot of sense. On the podcast they talk about the need for breathers after action scenes and while the real breather comes in chapter three I think the "world building" moment helps adjust the reader a bit here. Thank you so much for taking the time to read. and comment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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