Glys

Pathfinder · July 25, 2016

2 minutes ago, galendo said:

This could work, and honestly, it's a better explanation than any I've been able to come up with, but it does have a few problems:

1) Don't/shouldn't Renarin's visions be coming at the same time as Dalinar's, i.e., during the highstorm? The countdown only ever appears on highstorm days. It's not impossible that the vision comes before the storm, I guess, but the one time we see Renarin scratching away in the grip of the vision (near the Oathgate on the Shattered Plains), the storm is already raging just outside.

2) It relies on Dalinar being in the appropriate place when the Highstorm hits. I can't remember if it happened in WoR or not, but in WoK the highstorms sometimes hit at unexpected times, when Dalinar wasn't in his own private rooms. Now maybe you could argue that Truthwatchers can see the future well enough to know where Dalinar will be and Renarin's plotting all this out (to frame his father for the scratchings...why?), but it seems like a bit of a stretch.

3) Why not mark the walls in some other section of the palace entirely? It seems a much better idea than trying to convince everyone that your father's in even less control of himself than everyone thought. It's not like carvings in walls are so common that there's any danger of your warnings being overlooked or ignored.

4) Why hide the marks in the first place? If no one saw you carve them, and no one's around to see you hide them with Stormlight, then probably no one's going to see if you just walk into the next room.

5) Wasn't Dalinar's knife the one used? I kind of seem to remember that the blade showed signs of wear, though maybe I'm misremembering. If so, though, this theory would require Renarin to steal the blade and then sneak it back again. Again, why go through all this trouble? Surely Renarin has knives of his own.

6) Why wasn't Navani watching Dalinar and recording his visions? This isn't really a knock against your theory so much as it is a criticism about this part of WoR in general, but...why did she stop recording? It's not like the few visions she witnessed were sufficient to derive the entire Dawn Chant, right? I don't recall this ever being satisfactorily explained.

1) although this is a very loose response on my part, it could be that the assumption is that it has to be during highstorms, when truthwatchers don't have to. It just appeared to coincide with Dalinar's and Renarin did not seek to correct them due to fear and embarrassment. quite the stretch I know, but like i said just spitballing

2) true, it requires dalinar to have the vision where Renarin made the markings earlier. So that would be an additional roll of the dice each time.

3) maybe didn't want more people to find out? The marks were already discovered by his immediate family, his father already having visions. someone who is scared and took the easy way out would let the status quo continue with his father taking the blame. if he marked elsewhere, others may find out about the marks. only dalinar's visions are common knowledge at that point, not the marks

4) this was answered regarding number 3

5) i mentioned that earlier. I was positing that Dalinar's knife happened to be near by when Renarin had a vision and he used it. Dalinar thinking nothing of it at the time, picked it back up and had it the rest of the day. he didn't make the connection, because when they saw the carvings, was much later and his knife was on him then.

6) Honestly I do not recall enough to respond. I think it was then that they discovered the visions were on repeat and they might have recorded enough that they didn't need to continue. If for instance he gets 10 visions, that start over the 11th time, then Navani would only need to record those 10, and then spend the rest of the time focusing on decoding the 10 she recorded. That is my best guess

Basically I realize how utterly flimsy my idea is lol. Any responses are stretches in an attempt to rationalize it, and maybe, just maybe, something in the process ends up making sense lol.

Argel · July 25, 2016

The "did it earlier and then hid it" theory could work even if he was in control. Different implications potentially, though if he wanted his father to understand there was a timetable.... Didn't Dalinar have visions every highstorm? And those were always predictable. So, not hard to do ahead of time, and the margin for error does not have to be perfect.

I really like the "legality" theory for Nalan. He would also need to have something to look into. For example, if he did a quick investigation of Shallan, well, they were keeping her father's death a secret and her father claimed responsibility for her mother's death. So, nothing to really see there. We also do not know how he learns about these proto-radiants. Shallan was in a pretty remote area and did not venture out often. So, would there be enough to interest him?

Jasnah was always careful, so likely just skirting the law enough to be hard to reach. If Mraize is to be believed (cough cough) though, Jasnah may have sent an assasin against the Ghostbloods first. Nalan may not know about that, or may consider that legal (Jasnah is royalty and the Ghostbloods may be seen as a criminal organization). Also, don't forget Jasnah has been using a fake soulcaster as a cover for her abilities. So he may not have any reason to suspect her.

Which I guess brings us back to how iw he finding the proto-radiants? Rumors about Kaladin may have reached him, but the others? Jasnah -- using a soulcaster, Shallan likely unaware of until she started hanging out with Jasnah, and then there's even less for Renarin and Dalinar. So if he's relying on rumors, research, etc. then not as much to go on.

maxal · July 25, 2016

52 minutes ago, galendo said:

This could work, and honestly, it's a better explanation than any I've been able to come up with, but it does have a few problems:

1) Don't/shouldn't Renarin's visions be coming at the same time as Dalinar's, i.e., during the highstorm? The countdown only ever appears on highstorm days. It's not impossible that the vision comes before the storm, I guess, but the one time we see Renarin scratching away in the grip of the vision (near the Oathgate on the Shattered Plains), the storm is already raging just outside.

2) It relies on Dalinar being in the appropriate place when the Highstorm hits. I can't remember if it happened in WoR or not, but in WoK the highstorms sometimes hit at unexpected times, when Dalinar wasn't in his own private rooms. Now maybe you could argue that Truthwatchers can see the future well enough to know where Dalinar will be and Renarin's plotting all this out (to frame his father for the scratchings...why?), but it seems like a bit of a stretch.

3) Why not mark the walls in some other section of the palace entirely? It seems a much better idea than trying to convince everyone that your father's in even less control of himself than everyone thought. It's not like carvings in walls are so common that there's any danger of your warnings being overlooked or ignored.

4) Why hide the marks in the first place? If no one saw you carve them, and no one's around to see you hide them with Stormlight, then probably no one's going to see if you just walk into the next room.

5) Wasn't Dalinar's knife the one used? I kind of seem to remember that the blade showed signs of wear, though maybe I'm misremembering. If so, though, this theory would require Renarin to steal the blade and then sneak it back again. Again, why go through all this trouble? Surely Renarin has knives of his own.

6) Why wasn't Navani watching Dalinar and recording his visions? This isn't really a knock against your theory so much as it is a criticism about this part of WoR in general, but...why did she stop recording? It's not like the few visions she witnessed were sufficient to derive the entire Dawn Chant, right? I don't recall this ever being satisfactorily explained.

1) If Renarin's visions are uncontrollable or, to be more precise, if he isn't in control of himself during them and the wall-scratching isn't something he does on purpose, then he would need to have had his visions while being in the vicinity of his father while not being uncovered. It seems highly improbable, thus it seems more likely Renarin used the Highstorms as a charter moment to make the marks. It was deliberate on his part, he made them such as the blame would fall on his father and not on himself. He hid it all which implies control.

2) Dalinar enforced a curfew on his family early in WoR during highstorms which implies Renarin would have never been alone during those. Impossible for him to hide himself having twitching invasive visions. The only way the uncontrollable visions could happen in public would be for them to simply manifest by Renarin starring at the wall while seeming in perfect control of his physical state.

3) He made them close to his father physically such as to make sure the blame would fall on him. If the marks were everywhere, then nobody would believe it was Dalinar, including Dalinar himself.

4) I don't think he hid them, I think he made them and waited for others to see them. I think it was deliberate.

5) Dalinar knife was used only half-way through the book, most probably to make sure Dalinar would be identified as the culprit. Also, if Dalinar thinks he did it, if he thinks it is part of his visions, then he would be more inclined to act on them. Renarin is simply trying to gear in father into motion without actually having to speak to him.

6) I have no idea, but she wasn't watching anymore. When Adolin comes back from his date with Shallan, he is greeted by new marks on the wall and his father walking out of bed. Then, they ask someone to go fetch Navani thus implying she wasn't there (or was she I think I do not recall well). Also, it was hours after the highstorm they found the mark... During the hightorm, Adolin was clustered in the waiting room, slumped on a chair and afterwards, he spent hours walking around, taking his sweet time to get back. The mark was made in the dead of the night... not during the highstorm, but after thus implying Renarin purposefully waiting for an opportunity, following this specific highstorm to make the mark.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Although a good point, I could say that he has been seen having fits. Everyone just attributes it to his "blood disease". Now true, this would rely on every time his "fit" manifests as writing on the wall being with no one around, but I think it is possible. I agree, you are correct, it is a stretch, but I was just trying to spit ball and see what stuck lol.

Regarding your response on legality. Kaladin was made a slave illegally. Nale does seem to have a beyond normal capability to find out a person's every dirty secret (evidenced by Ym). Since Kaladin being made a slave was unlawful, it would be more akin to him trying to escape kidnapping or unlawful imprisonment. So his fleeing would not be illegal. This is why I clarified Alethi and Karbarthian. We could debate about it back and forth, but from what I have seen, although assassination is "frowned" upon, it isn't illegal. As well as although she had foreknowledge, she did kill the thugs in self defense. Shallan killed her parents in self defense. Dalinar killed while at war. Twisted as it may be, killing during combat is seen as a part of war, not illegal. Now again, we could debate and go back and forth (as we have in the past in other threads lol), but that is my theory at least. As per the laws in world, nothing they did was illegal, so he had no cause to seek them out. But I respect that your views are different on the subject.

edit: regarding Jasnah and assassinations, I just remembered, she had the assassin on retainer if someone else tried to hire them. She had a standing contact that if anyone hired an assassin to kill her or the royal family, she would pay better. She also had a contract pending for the queen, but did not follow through. So now I have to ask, have we ever seen Jasnah actually have any assassin carry out an assassination?

Renarin's fits have nothing to do with his behavior at the Oathgate. His arm merely twitch and he probably feels weak: what he has is partial epilepsy, the less dangerous form, the one form where you don't lose consciousness and you don't twitch on the floor. It almost goes unnoticed. He has a fit in WoK and people barely noticed. I thus do not think he could have hidden uncontrollable, invasive visions as fits.

Was Kaladin being made a slave illegal? It was wrong, but was it illegal considering Alethi laws? I am asking because I am not sure.

Shallan killing her parents is definitely illegal. While killing her mother certainly was self-defense, killing her father wasn't. In order for it to be self-defense, her life would have needed to be in danger and it wasn't. You can't kill to protect someone and the use of poison marks it as a first degree premeditated murder. Harsh? Yes, but true. Modern day laws would condemn Shallan for the murder of her father. Her actions definitely were illegal.

It is hard to tell if Dalinar did anything illegal or not: Sadeas hinted he may have killed people for a yes or for a no.

Jasnah most definitely committed first degree murder when she killed those thugs. Her intend was to kill people and she killed fleeing men when her life was not threaten: it wasn't self-defense. Her only legal means is the fact it is actually hard to prove it wasn't self-defense but us, the readers, we do know it wasn't. What she did was the darkest actions we have seen a Radiant do on screen. It was deliberate and it was brutal. True enough though, Nale may not have the arguments to convict her, but she definitely broke the law.

Erklitt · July 25, 2016

39 minutes ago, maxal said:

Was Kaladin being made a slave illegal? It was wrong, but was it illegal considering Alethi laws? I am asking because I am not sure.

Shallan killing her parents is definitely illegal. While killing her mother certainly was self-defense, killing her father wasn't. In order for it to be self-defense, her life would have needed to be in danger and it wasn't. You can't kill to protect someone and the use of poison marks it as a first degree premeditated murder. Harsh? Yes, but true. Modern day laws would condemn Shallan for the murder of her father. Her actions definitely were illegal.

It is hard to tell if Dalinar did anything illegal or not: Sadeas hinted he may have killed people for a yes or for a no.

Jasnah most definitely committed first degree murder when she killed those thugs. Her intend was to kill people and she killed fleeing men when her life was not threaten: it wasn't self-defense. Her only legal means is the fact it is actually hard to prove it wasn't self-defense but us, the readers, we do know it wasn't. What she did was the darkest actions we have seen a Radiant do on screen. It was deliberate and it was brutal. True enough though, Nale may not have the arguments to convict her, but she definitely broke the law.

Was Kaladin made a slave illegally? I don't know either, but my guess would be yes. Kaladin had committed no crime. Amaram does have great power over the people living on his land, he can draft soldiers against their will for example. But make a soldier a slave without good reason? I don't think so.

In the case of Shallan, I think you are projecting too much of modern day western legal systems into Alethi laws. And even today, when the only way to stop an attacker from killing you or a third party is to kill them first, that is not illegal. The latter gives the same right as self defense, and Shallan was protecting Balat. I agree that the way she killed her father wouldn't count as such a case under modern law - when he slowly came to after the poisoning, they should have been able to restrain him somehow without killing him. But I doubt such niceties can be projected to Jah Keved.

Same with Jasnah: she killed men who had tried to kill her. Her first kill was definitely not illegal, wouldn't even have been today. She was allowed to go where she went. She was attacked, her life was threatened. The attackers were physically stronger and had superior numbers. The only means to defend herself against them was her ability to soulcast. How else could she have kept Shallan and herself alive? Killing the other three after they had turned to flee of course wouldn't stand as self-defense under modern law, but again: that's a very modern point of view. They had just tried to kill her.

Pathfinder · July 25, 2016

1 hour ago, maxal said:

1) If Renarin's visions are uncontrollable or, to be more precise, if he isn't in control of himself during them and the wall-scratching isn't something he does on purpose, then he would need to have had his visions while being in the vicinity of his father while not being uncovered. It seems highly improbable, thus it seems more likely Renarin used the Highstorms as a charter moment to make the marks. It was deliberate on his part, he made them such as the blame would fall on his father and not on himself. He hid it all which implies control. i feel like it could still be a bit of both insofar as this. perhaps the first time he just happened to be in the room, did it, freaked and covered it. it was when it was discovered later, and everyone assumed it was dalinar that he allowed it to be his scape goat, and then made a conscious decision to hang out near the rooms anytime we felt a vision coming on.

2) Dalinar enforced a curfew on his family early in WoR during highstorms which implies Renarin would have never been alone during those. Impossible for him to hide himself having twitching invasive visions. The only way the uncontrollable visions could happen in public would be for them to simply manifest by Renarin starring at the wall while seeming in perfect control of his physical state. curfew does not prevent moving about earlier in the day. I am still of the opinion that it only appears his visions are linked to highstorms, but i do not have anything to back that up

3) He made them close to his father physically such as to make sure the blame would fall on him. If the marks were everywhere, then nobody would believe it was Dalinar, including Dalinar himself. refer to number 1

4) I don't think he hid them, I think he made them and waited for others to see them. I think it was deliberate. that could very well be, and would be a simpler solution rather than hiding it with stormlight. though then we are back to square one with how was he able to make them, when they were not in existence prior to dalinar's vision, but they appeared after?

5) Dalinar knife was used only half-way through the book, most probably to make sure Dalinar would be identified as the culprit. Also, if Dalinar thinks he did it, if he thinks it is part of his visions, then he would be more inclined to act on them. Renarin is simply trying to gear in father into motion without actually having to speak to him. if i recall correctly, the knife in question is typically used to eat with (at least regarding Dalinar). it is kept in a side sheath, so it was present the entire time, though as you stated not particularly called attention to for most of it. i personally have poured myself some water, drank half, gone to another room, and forgot about it till hours later i re-enter the original room and see it. this is personally what i think happened regarding dalinar's knife. for whatever reason he put it down, and went to do something else. Renarin grabbed the first thing near by, the knife, carved with it, hid the carvings, and put it back. dalinar picked back up his knife where he left it, then much later saw the carvings and attributed it to his knife. still very far fetched as this depends on a lot of inferences i am making that are not backed up anywhere in the book, but i dunno, it kinda fits for me.

6) I have no idea, but she wasn't watching anymore. When Adolin comes back from his date with Shallan, he is greeted by new marks on the wall and his father walking out of bed. Then, they ask someone to go fetch Navani thus implying she wasn't there (or was she I think I do not recall well). Also, it was hours after the highstorm they found the mark... During the hightorm, Adolin was clustered in the waiting room, slumped on a chair and afterwards, he spent hours walking around, taking his sweet time to get back. The mark was made in the dead of the night... not during the highstorm, but after thus implying Renarin purposefully waiting for an opportunity, following this specific highstorm to make the mark. so that supports that the truthwatcher visions might not be tied to, or require highstorms to function

Renarin's fits have nothing to do with his behavior at the Oathgate. His arm merely twitch and he probably feels weak: what he has is partial epilepsy, the less dangerous form, the one form where you don't lose consciousness and you don't twitch on the floor. It almost goes unnoticed. He has a fit in WoK and people barely noticed. I thus do not think he could have hidden uncontrollable, invasive visions as fits. you misunderstand why i brought it up. once upon a time back in college, my girlfriend at the time was looking into colleges she wanted to attend. At one point i was not supposed to be there with her, but she snuck me in. she then had to go do something, so i was waiting off in a hallway. a residential life aid noticed me and asked if i got lost or needed help. Me not wanting to have to answer a bunch of awkward questions and be led off told her I have a mild form of cataplexy (my father has it, and it happened to me once when i was young but never reoccurred) and was so overwhelmed with the college experience i felt light headed. she immediately asked if i needed help or wanted her to call anyone. i said no, that the best thing to do is just give it time and i will catch up. She was so focused on my well being she didn't bother to inquire as to why it was odd i was there, hadn't provided my name, nor mention what group or major i was apart of. The reason for my little story? Take a grain of truth, such as an existing condition someone does not know/or understand, and apply it to a situation you want to get out of. No one really understands his "blood disease". He just seems to have fits. They don't even fully describe his fits. So how would they know when he was having one, or faking, or doing something completely different? so even though he knows they are unrelated, no one else knows.

Was Kaladin being made a slave illegal? It was wrong, but was it illegal considering Alethi laws? I am asking because I am not sure. well lets take a look at how it happened. Kaladin did not break any alethi laws. he was a good soldier, that saved his lord, and gave up the shard plate and blade when offered. he then went right back to his unit. Amaram then killed his unit and branded him a slave. What law did Kal break, or transgress that would warrant him legally be made a slave? He didn't owe money so he didn't have to work off a debt. He didn't kill any superiors. Even in Alethi law, a noble can't just make someone a slave because you feel like it. There has to be a reason. So Kaladin was made slave illegally.

Shallan killing her parents is definitely illegal. While killing her mother certainly was self-defense, killing her father wasn't. In order for it to be self-defense, her life would have needed to be in danger and it wasn't. You can't kill to protect someone and the use of poison marks it as a first degree premeditated murder. Harsh? Yes, but true. Modern day laws would condemn Shallan for the murder of her father. Her actions definitely were illegal. her father was attacking her brothers, nearly killing them. their lives were in danger. as she was not physically capable of stopping him, she used the poison to end the threat. actually you can, that is self defense by law. otherwise you would never be allowed to help someone being assaulted, because you aren't the one being assaulted. pre-meditated murder would constitute her having gathered the poison herself with the intent to poison and kill him. the reality is that the brother had it. he gave it to her because he decided he didn't want to commit suicide. her father then became violent, and their lives were in danger. she used the only weapon she had on hand in defense as her father was clearly beating her brother to death. so modern day laws shallan would get off. now this is regarding US law, as that is the law i work with daily, so i cannot comment on other countries, but a good defense attorney could get her off. given the level of knowledge nale has, I feel this would apply

It is hard to tell if Dalinar did anything illegal or not: Sadeas hinted he may have killed people for a yes or for a no. Alethi laws allow for duels. dont like someone's face? challenge to a duel. someone yawned too loudly? challenge to a duel. The only thing that stopped Adolin from dueling anyone who insulted his father, was because his father wouldn't let him

Jasnah most definitely committed first degree murder when she killed those thugs. Her intend was to kill people and she killed fleeing men when her life was not threaten: it wasn't self-defense. Her only legal means is the fact it is actually hard to prove it wasn't self-defense but us, the readers, we do know it wasn't. What she did was the darkest actions we have seen a Radiant do on screen. It was deliberate and it was brutal. True enough though, Nale may not have the arguments to convict her, but she definitely broke the law.

we have discussed this before. in the scene she walked into the alley, the thugs came at her with a knife, and then she responded. by law it was self defense. it was not till the very last thug that anyone actually tried to flee, and Shallan was there. he could have been running to grab and hurt her. so jasnah was again within her means ending a lethal threat. it is legal to use the same means to stop the threat as being used on you. so if an untrained person starts to punch you, you can punch back, but you cannot shoot unless they are beating you to the point you think you will die. you can then kill that person by law. you must use any means in which to end the threat to your life. what would be hard to prove was that she went there with intent to kill them. again, i deal with the law everyday. but as we have gone through before, we fundamentally disagree with how the law is applied here. I could cite case law, but that is not centrally what we are discussing in this thread and i do not want to derail it.

edit: one last addition lol. kaladin talked about taking out his own form of justice on amaram, to which syl replied that that is the skybreaker way. so jasnah mete out justice to these criminals. based on what syl is saying skybreakers are like, they would applaud her. nale is the herald associated with the skybreakers......

Edited July 25, 2016 by Pathfinder

maxal · July 25, 2016

2 hours ago, Erklitt said:

Was Kaladin made a slave illegally? I don't know either, but my guess would be yes. Kaladin had committed no crime. Amaram does have great power over the people living on his land, he can draft soldiers against their will for example. But make a soldier a slave without good reason? I don't think so.

In the case of Shallan, I think you are projecting too much of modern day western legal systems into Alethi laws. And even today, when the only way to stop an attacker from killing you or a third party is to kill them first, that is not illegal. The latter gives the same right as self defense, and Shallan was protecting Balat. I agree that the way she killed her father wouldn't count as such a case under modern law - when he slowly came to after the poisoning, they should have been able to restrain him somehow without killing him. But I doubt such niceties can be projected to Jah Keved.

Same with Jasnah: she killed men who had tried to kill her. Her first kill was definitely not illegal, wouldn't even have been today. She was allowed to go where she went. She was attacked, her life was threatened. The attackers were physically stronger and had superior numbers. The only means to defend herself against them was her ability to soulcast. How else could she have kept Shallan and herself alive? Killing the other three after they had turned to flee of course wouldn't stand as self-defense under modern law, but again: that's a very modern point of view. They had just tried to kill her.

Once, a commentator claiming to be real criminal attorney working in the States, explained how a self-defense case could not be made for Shallan because: 1) Here life was not in danger, it therefore was not self-defense (it wasn't her or him, she was not physically threatened), 2) She used poison and murder by poison is always considered first degree murder no matter the circumstances, 3) You cannot kill to defend someone else and claim it was self-defense. If you could kill to protect someone, then you would be faced with trials where people are trying to argue you had reason enough cause to kill the person: you can't kill. Ever. The only time you'd get away with killing is if you are wrestling with someone threatening you with a knife, you pick up his gun and inadvertently shoot him.

Shallan murdering her father does not even begin to pass as self-defense. Even if she did try to plead for self-defense, any lawyer would argue she couldn't reasonably know for sure her father would have killed Balat. Also her choice weapon marks her a guilty as there is no legal way outside of using poison: it always is deliberate and it always is first degree murder because you need to intend to kill someone to use it. It doesn't matter where the poison came from, it only matters she saw fit to use it. Besides, once she gave him poison and found out he didn't die, she used strangulation to make sure he died, another one which is hard to pass as anything else but first degree murder. I have a hard time thinking Lin Davar still was a threat after being poisoned, I mean if not dead, he would still have been weak. Shallan could have easily knock him off or tie him up or anything: murder simply wasn't the only option and yet she chose to go for it.

Not being a lawyer myself, I have to take other's experiences at hand. I trust this man was whom he claimed to be and there is no denying he has more extensive knowledge than I do on the matter. Therefore, if he is reasonably sure Shallan would not get away with self-defense charges for murdering her father, then I do believe it may be the case. Besides, if the poisoning may pass as self-defense, then the subsequent strangulation certainly doesn't.

This being said, I don't agree with this analysis of Shallan's actions, but laws are harsh, if they weren't harsh, the world would be filled with vigilantes. Most juries would see Shallan as guilty because it is undeniable she did kill her father and you do not want to create jurisprudence on such a case. If you do, you open the door for people murdering others on the claim of "I thought he was going to kill this other guy". Intend of a dead person is nearly impossible to prove. It is just like Adolin, if he could have gotten away with self-defense (even if we all know it wasn't but since there was no witness it basically is his word) had he knifed Sadeas in the stomach, the fact it was in the eye and he twisted kinda kills the option.

Jasnah is a bit different because you have to prove she intend to kill the men which is impossible. Once they attacked her, she was in her right to defend herself, but she did not have the right to kill those who were running away. Simple forensic would have proven the men weren't all killed through self-defense and she would be charged for those. If I trust Dexter, they can pretty much retell the action on a murder scene based on the blood splatter and where the bodies fell Of course, Roshar may not have such expertise, but had it been real-life, then Jasnah would have been charged with murder. You can't kill people just because they tried to rob you. Fun facts, a man tried to steal a convenience store a few weeks back and the cashier trust acid to his face, thus mutilating him. The robber now sues the cashier for charges I forgot the name of because even if he was robbing, it still didn't give the right to disfigure him. Thus Jasnah did not have the right to kill fleeing none-threatening men simply because they tried to rob her. It wasn't self-defense anymore, thus Jasnah did commit a crime.

As for Kaladin, I merely wonder if there are laws which would protect people like Amaram, giving them the right to dispose of their soldiers as they see fit. It is quite probable there aren't, but it is worth asking.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Pathfinder, somehow I cannot quote you... You broke the quote tool

1) One of my main argument is nobody thought it truly was Dalinar up until he found out his knife has been used. There has been several markings in between the first one and the one where Dalinar figures out it must be him. Also, if the visions manifests themselves at random, then Renarin would have had no ways to predict when they would hit and they would have hit at unfavorable moments, such as when he is training with Zahel or when he is at a social gatherings, places where he cannot hide. Dalinar knew when the visions would hit and yet he failed to hide them. Therefore the visions can't be totally random and uncontrollable: there has to be a predictable aspect to them or else Renarin would have been caught.

2) I agree we do not how tied in to the Highstorms his visions are and it is quite possible they occurred at another time. However, if they were completely random, then he would have been prevented in hiding them. They thus have to happen in a predictable way, impossible to get around this. Therefore, of we both agree it probably isn't tied to the Highstorms, given Renarin is often surrounded at those moments, thus making it very hard for him to hide, then when? At night? When he is dreaming? This would be easily concealable.

3) Doesn't work out because the blame didn't feel on Dalinar until much later, around chapter 50. My thoughts are he wanted his father to end up thinking it was him, from the start. I am convinced the first mark was deliberate: Renarin was sitting in the room with Adolin a few moment before. He couldn't have had a vision, panic and write a glyph while sitting right next to Adolin. Even if it magically happened when he was at the privy, it is too much coincidence for myself to swallow.

4) I think he hid himself making them... Such an illusion would be easy to perform. All he had to to is excuse himself, go to the privy, make the glyph, go back sit down and a few moments later, drop the illusions and wham everyone notices the mark. I have no trouble believing he could have consciously make those marks while being with other people. I however have a harder time thinking he may have made them while being in the middle of an uncontrollable fit. I thus do not believe his state, during the Oathgate scene, indicates how it has been the previous time.

5) Well I am sure there are other use for a side knife than eating with it... If I recalled properly, Dalinar was offered a more suitable for eating knife, but he preferred his side one. I would thus think most people do not take their side knife as fine cutlery. Unfortunately, since I stupidly forgot my book in my cubicle and I am away on vacations for the next month, I am unable to go and read back this chapter. From my memory, Dalinar has been in bed when he was woken up to find a new mark on the wall just as Adolin was getting back. He sees his knife next to it and clearly it wasn't where he initially left it. It would have been easy for Renarin to step in undetected into his father's room, take the knife and make the mark. Adolin states his room was the door right next to his father's, so it is safe to assume the door on the other side is Renarin's, so not a long way to go.

6) Yes, I agree. The fact the mark after the Highstorm had long since been gone indicate it may merely be a charter moment young Renarin uses to make his marks. He knows his father has visions during those, so he wants to tie the mark to those.

Argel · July 25, 2016

Let's not forget Amaram lied about what happened. IIRC, the four survivors helped the shardbearer and Kaladin ran away -- i.e. a deserter. There was nothing legal about Kaldin being made a slave that I can see. On the other hand, how would Nale know about that? I am realyl hard pressed to come up with something Kal did that would give Nale an opportunity.

Shallan and family kept the death of their father a secret, so how would Nale even know about it? Not sure if it would be legal or not in Jah Keved, but on the other hand, a family head killing off his family doesn't sound legal either. And I would assume that killing women and children is, well, not a masculine art. Let's not forget that men are taught how to fight and women are not. It doesn't sound very Vorin to me, either. For all we know, Shallan could have had more legal standing than here. And the Ghostblods could be a legal wildcard, and something Nale might be fine with.

I'm inclined too say Jasnah committed first degree murder. But it's a gray area, since the thugs did spring their "ambush", making it self-defense. And visiting royalty vs. thugs -- good luck with that one. Anyway, it sounds like a tactic Nale might employ. The biggest fallout was Shallan stealing the fake soulcaster that night.

Pathfinder · July 25, 2016

12 minutes ago, maxal said:

Once, a commentator claiming to be real criminal attorney working in the States, explained how a self-defense case could not be made for Shallan because: 1) Here life was not in danger, it therefore was not self-defense (it wasn't her or him, she was not physically threatened), 2) She used poison and murder by poison is always considered first degree murder no matter the circumstances, 3) You cannot kill to defend someone else and claim it was self-defense. If you could kill to protect someone, then you would be faced with trials where people are trying to argue you had reason enough cause to kill the person: you can't kill. Ever. The only time you'd get away with killing is if you are wrestling with someone threatening you with a knife, you pick up his gun and inadvertently shoot him.

Shallan murdering her father does not even begin to pass as self-defense. Even if she did try to plead for self-defense, any lawyer would argue she couldn't reasonably know for sure her father would have killed Balat. Also her choice weapon marks her a guilty as there is no legal way outside of using poison: it always is deliberate and it always is first degree murder because you need to intend to kill someone to use it. It doesn't matter where the poison came from, it only matters she saw fit to use it. Besides, once she gave him poison and found out he didn't die, she used strangulation to make sure he died, another one which is hard to pass as anything else but first degree murder. I have a hard time thinking Lin Davar still was a threat after being poisoned, I mean if not dead, he would still have been weak. Shallan could have easily knock him off or tie him up or anything: murder simply wasn't the only option and yet she chose to go for it.

Not being a lawyer myself, I have to take other's experiences at hand. I trust this man was whom he claimed to be and there is no denying he has more extensive knowledge than I do on the matter. Therefore, if he is reasonably sure Shallan would not get away with self-defense charges for murdering her father, then I do believe it may be the case. Besides, if the poisoning may pass as self-defense, then the subsequent strangulation certainly doesn't.

This being said, I don't agree with this analysis of Shallan's actions, but laws are harsh, if they weren't harsh, the world would be filled with vigilantes. Most juries would see Shallan as guilty because it is undeniable she did kill her father and you do not want to create jurisprudence on such a case. If you do, you open the door for people murdering others on the claim of "I thought he was going to kill this other guy". Intend of a dead person is nearly impossible to prove. It is just like Adolin, if he could have gotten away with self-defense (even if we all know it wasn't but since there was no witness it basically is his word) had he knifed Sadeas in the stomach, the fact it was in the eye and he twisted kinda kills the option.

Jasnah is a bit different because you have to prove she intend to kill the men which is impossible. Once they attacked her, she was in her right to defend herself, but she did not have the right to kill those who were running away. Simple forensic would have proven the men weren't all killed through self-defense and she would be charged for those. If I trust Dexter, they can pretty much retell the action on a murder scene based on the blood splatter and where the bodies fell Of course, Roshar may not have such expertise, but had it been real-life, then Jasnah would have been charged with murder. You can't kill people just because they tried to rob you. Fun facts, a man tried to steal a convenience store a few weeks back and the cashier trust acid to his face, thus mutilating him. The robber now sues the cashier for charges I forgot the name of because even if he was robbing, it still didn't give the right to disfigure him. Thus Jasnah did not have the right to kill fleeing none-threatening men simply because they tried to rob her. It wasn't self-defense anymore, thus Jasnah did commit a crime.

As for Kaladin, I merely wonder if there are laws which would protect people like Amaram, giving them the right to dispose of their soldiers as they see fit. It is quite probable there aren't, but it is worth asking.

Pathfinder, somehow I cannot quote you... You broke the quote tool

1) One of my main argument is nobody thought it truly was Dalinar up until he found out his knife has been used. There has been several markings in between the first one and the one where Dalinar figures out it must be him. Also, if the visions manifests themselves at random, then Renarin would have had no ways to predict when they would hit and they would have hit at unfavorable moments, such as when he is training with Zahel or when he is at a social gatherings, places where he cannot hide. Dalinar knew when the visions would hit and yet he failed to hide them. Therefore the visions can't be totally random and uncontrollable: there has to be a predictable aspect to them or else Renarin would have been caught.

2) I agree we do not how tied in to the Highstorms his visions are and it is quite possible they occurred at another time. However, if they were completely random, then he would have been prevented in hiding them. They thus have to happen in a predictable way, impossible to get around this. Therefore, of we both agree it probably isn't tied to the Highstorms, given Renarin is often surrounded at those moments, thus making it very hard for him to hide, then when? At night? When he is dreaming? This would be easily concealable.

3) Doesn't work out because the blame didn't feel on Dalinar until much later, around chapter 50. My thoughts are he wanted his father to end up thinking it was him, from the start. I am convinced the first mark was deliberate: Renarin was sitting in the room with Adolin a few moment before. He couldn't have had a vision, panic and write a glyph while sitting right next to Adolin. Even if it magically happened when he was at the privy, it is too much coincidence for myself to swallow.

4) I think he hid himself making them... Such an illusion would be easy to perform. All he had to to is excuse himself, go to the privy, make the glyph, go back sit down and a few moments later, drop the illusions and wham everyone notices the mark. I have no trouble believing he could have consciously make those marks while being with other people. I however have a harder time thinking he may have made them while being in the middle of an uncontrollable fit. I thus do not believe his state, during the Oathgate scene, indicates how it has been the previous time.

5) Well I am sure there are other use for a side knife than eating with it... If I recalled properly, Dalinar was offered a more suitable for eating knife, but he preferred his side one. I would thus think most people do not take their side knife as fine cutlery. Unfortunately, since I stupidly forgot my book in my cubicle and I am away on vacations for the next month, I am unable to go and read back this chapter. From my memory, Dalinar has been in bed when he was woken up to find a new mark on the wall just as Adolin was getting back. He sees his knife next to it and clearly it wasn't where he initially left it. It would have been easy for Renarin to step in undetected into his father's room, take the knife and make the mark. Adolin states his room was the door right next to his father's, so it is safe to assume the door on the other side is Renarin's, so not a long way to go.

6) Yes, I agree. The fact the mark after the Highstorm had long since been gone indicate it may merely be a charter moment young Renarin uses to make his marks. He knows his father has visions during those, so he wants to tie the mark to those.

i dont have much time to respond in full so that will have to wait till tomorrow, but can i ask what state this attorney practices? Here is NY state penal law sub section 35.15 shown below (bolded for emphases):

1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:

(a) The latter's conduct was provoked by the actor with intent to cause physical injury to another person; or

(b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case the use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if the actor has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force; or

(c) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by agreement not specifically authorized by law.

2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:

(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no duty to retreat if he or she is:

(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or

(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police officer or a peace officer at the latter's direction, acting pursuant to section 35.30; or

(b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal sexual act or robbery; or

(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of section 35.20.

so in summation at least in regards to NY state law (once you let me know the state this attorney practices, i can confirm that law as well), you cannot kill someone except when your life is in imminent danger assuming you did not provoke the attack, was not the initial aggressor (first to threaten or enact lethal bodily harm), were not partaking in a product of combat that is illegal (so illegal bare knuckle boxing).

Edited July 25, 2016 by Pathfinder

maxal · July 25, 2016

1 minute ago, Argel said:

Let's not forget Amaram lied about what happened. IIRC, the four survivors helped the shardbearer and Kaladin ran away -- i.e. a deserter. There was nothing legal about Kaldin being made a slave that I can see. On the other hand, how would Nale know about that? I am realyl hard pressed to come up with something Kal did that would give Nale an opportunity.

Shallan and family kept the death of their father a secret, so how would Nale even know about it? Not sure if it would be legal or not in Jah Keved, but on the other hand, a family head killing off his family doesn't sound legal either. And I would assume that killing women and children is, well, not a masculine art. Let's not forget that men are taught how to fight and women are not. It doesn't sound very Vorin to me, either. For all we know, Shallan could have had more legal standing than here. And the Ghostblods could be a legal wildcard, and something Nale might be fine with.

I'm inclined too say Jasnah committed first degree murder. But it's a gray area, since the thugs did spring their "ambush", making it self-defense. And visiting royalty vs. thugs -- good luck with that one. Anyway, it sounds like a tactic Nale might employ. The biggest fallout was Shallan stealing the fake soulcaster that night.

Huh I honestly do not know about Kaladin: I am merely trying to find a rational as to why Nale could"should have come after him... It maybe I am pushing it a bit too far.

As for Shallan, the fact Lin is a criminal doesn't give Shallan the right to kill him. It goes back to the vigilante. You can't kill someone simply because he is a bad person: it is why there are laws. The reason I assume Nale knows about Shallan is because Helaran was a member of his society and since Helaran was watching Shallan, then I suspect Nale was as well.

Jasnah is a gray area, nearly impossible to prove. I am firmly convinced she did commit first degree murder, but I do agree it is almost impossible to prove unless Jasnah were to admit it. She was very... careful.

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

i dont have much time to respond in full so that will have to wait till tomorrow, but can i ask what state this attorney practices? Here is NY state penal law sub section 35.15 shown below (bolded for emphases):

1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:

(a) The latter's conduct was provoked by the actor with intent to cause physical injury to another person; or

(b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case the use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if the actor has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force; or

(c) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by agreement not specifically authorized by law.

2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:

(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no duty to retreat if he or she is:

(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or

(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police officer or a peace officer at the latter's direction, acting pursuant to section 35.30; or

(b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal sexual act or robbery; or

(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of section 35.20.

Pathfinder, I can't say about the guy. It was on the Tor.com re-read and it was rather convincing. As I said, I am not a lawyer, but based on what I do know, it sounded like he had a point. Or it did at the time.

I'll try to find you the link on the Tor.com forum so you can read it for yourself and have further comments, but I needed to specify where I have gotten my reasoning from. I do not want to condemn Shallan, it seems harsh, but then again this one TV show I watched had a kid send to prison for years for not much at all and our penal system is supposed to be more lenient than the American one.... This being said, after reading this bout you've posted, it does seem as if he may have a case for self-defense for the poisoning, but not for the strangulation. I certainly think she has no case there: it was not required.

The NY laws are strange thought because this guy is really suing for having been disfigured after being thrown acid while attempting burglary... I do not know if he won his case of how far it went, maybe the charges weren't carried I do not know. I only read the story in the paper and thought it was funny.

Pathfinder · July 25, 2016

Since this has come up in various threads, what I may do (time permitting), is tomorrow post a new thread and quote Jasnah's, Shallan's, and Adolin's full "crime scenes" and how it happened verbatim from the books. Then include at least in regard to US/NY state, what laws what would apply (murder, self defense, etc). Finally I would interpret it based on my own knowledge of the law how those laws would apply to those cases. Then having all the info in one place, people could contribute their views and knowledge. That way we are all starting from the same knowledge base instead of trying to recall the scenes. What do you all think? Worth it?

maxal · July 25, 2016

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Since this has come up in various threads, what I may do (time permitting), is tomorrow post a new thread and quote Jasnah's, Shallan's, and Adolin's full "crime scenes" and how it happened verbatim from the books. Then include at least in regard to US/NY state, what laws what would apply (murder, self defense, etc). Finally I would interpret it based on my own knowledge of the law how those laws would apply to those cases. Then having all the info in one place, people could contribute their views and knowledge. That way we are all starting from the same knowledge base instead of trying to recall the scenes. What do you all think? Worth it?

Totally worth it. I'll fish out the Tor.com link for you because the guys out there discussed it. It was a rather detailed conversation and a very interesting one.

Argel · July 25, 2016

Shallan finds Malse's recently dead body while her father is confronting Balat and Eylita. She deduces that her father sent for Elytita and then killed Malise as punishment (i.e. 1st degree murder). Shallan poisons the wine while her father defeats Balat in a "duel".

There's no reason for her to believe anyone there is strong enough to take on her father directly (not counting the shardblade she refuses to think about), so a fast acting poison seems like the only option.

I think a lot of people get hung up on this because of the poison. But that's really the only option. It's not like the police are nearby -- go for them in time to find out he killed everyone else after you left, assuming you are allowed out. Don't forget he brought on new guards.

I'm not sure what Nale thinks of the Ghostbloods, or how they are considered by others. And applying our laws to a medieval/ level society is a stretch at times. What we might call vigilante justice might be just fine for them.

Something to consider for the Shattered Plains is the heavy military aspect, including that Dalinar and Kal are both in the military. So e.g. Kal probably disobeyed some orders -- problem for Nale is he cannot intercede because he's outside the chain of command. Even if he found something predating Kal joining the military, he would have to bring it up, unlike with Ym. Also, later on Taln ends up there. And Vasher/Zahel is there (might realize Nale has Nightblood). There's something to be said for avoiding Wit as well... Anyway, there may be too much going on there for him there.

Stormgate · July 25, 2016

Reading the quoted law, it says, in effect, that if you believe that someone is going to use lethal force on another person, you may attack them. So even though Shallan was likely not in danger, she might still be justified.

maxal · July 26, 2016

No matter how you put it, she isn't justified to strangle him after having poisoned him. He wasn't a threat anymore. I sincerely do not believe a half-poisoned man is capable of doing much additional harm. Therefore Shallan didn't have to kill her father. The fact he killed Malise doesn't give her the right to kill him, sad but true. You can't kill someone simply because you know he murdered someone else: even law enforcers aren't supposed to kill suspects unless directly threatened (now I say "supposed" because there has been all kind of issues with this lately). She would also need to prove her father intended further harm on Balat. It doesn't matter that we, the reader, know there was no other outcome: a jury doesn't know this. It has to be proven.

In the case of Shallan, what harms her defense is the fact she definitely had the intention to kill as opposed as having the intention to merely protect her brother. The double acts she poses leaves no doubt on her intentions and this, I believe, would sit badly on any jury.

Also, the reason poison is worst is because poison leaves no room for other outcome: as soon as you use it, you have the undeniable intend to kill. All Shallan needed to do was to take her father out of action: killing him was not necessary. She could have hit him on the head. True, it would have been hard to do, but once he was poisoned, she didn't have to actually kill him.

Magestar · July 26, 2016

I'm not going to go into legality here; I don't know enough about the topic. I'm going to raise more of a common sense, morality issue. Knowing Shallans father, as the person he was, would he have gone on to kill more people? I think he would. I think that Shallan, by killing her father, prevented deaths long-term. Probably. We really can't know, but that is my opinion.

I am not condoning murder here. Best case scenario; Shallans Dad would get brought in and have some serious therapy. But considering the scenario, I think Shallan prevented deaths, doing good. She could have done better. She could have knocked the guy out and called the authorities. But she didn't.

There is a lot to say on this topic. I think the matter goes further than I care to talk about, and I have to stop at some point, or I could ramble on and on and not give ANY clear answer.

maxal · July 26, 2016

3 minutes ago, Magestar said:

I'm not going to go into legality here; I don't know enough about the topic. I'm going to raise more of a common sense, morality issue. Knowing Shallans father, as the person he was, would he have gone on to kill more people? I think he would. I think that Shallan, by killing her father, prevented deaths long-term. Probably. We really can't know, but that is my opinion.

I am not condoning murder here. Best case scenario; Shallans Dad would get brought in and have some serious therapy. But considering the scenario, I think Shallan prevented deaths, doing good. She could have done better. She could have knocked the guy out and called the authorities. But she didn't.

There is a lot to say on this topic. I think the matter goes further than I care to talk about, and I have to stop at some point, or I could ramble on and on and not give ANY clear answer.

True enough, but law will not allow you to kill someone on the basis he may kill other people. This is exactly the reasoning Kaladin used to try to kill Elhokar: people would die because of him. It doesn't work out this way. You can't kill someone simply because you think this person would kill someone else. If the person tells you outright they are going to kill someone, then they are guilty of threats towards the life of others (I do not recall the right name of the charge) which is enough to put them behind bars, but it still does not give you the right to kill them.

Legally speaking, Shallan didn't have the right to kill her father and while it may have been for the greater good, laws aren't working this way. Lin Davar was guilty of many charges, but it doesn't erase the fact Shallan is guilty of murder. Harsh, but very true. Ultimately, it isn't about what we think would be right, it is about what is bast for a state of law and when dealing with a state of law you have to protect the life of everyone, including criminals. You also can't allow citizen to do their own justice, no matter how justified they may be, because you are then encouraging a purge or chaos or anarchy. You need to put these things into the hands of determined individuals, meaning law enforcers. You can't have people like Shallan do it themselves not to mention, yes, criminals have the same rights as everyone else. Harsh, but you can't have a state of law any other way.

Shallan should NOT have strangulated her father. She should have knock him off, render him out of action (which would have been easy considering he was weak with poison) then call out the authorities and say he has killed his wife and harmed his son. She had witnesses. Easy. Killing was not required and I doubt there is a legal system who will agree she absolutely had to kill him, providing they are willing to let her walk away with the poison.

Argel · July 26, 2016

EDIT: Gah!! She does strangle him a few pages later!! I hang my head in shame!!

@maxal Shallan did not strangle her father!! Here's the relevant section. Her father goes from about to kill Eylita to falling down dead. Shallan moves to his already dead body.

Quote

Father looked to Eylita, murder in his eyes. He raised his poker to strike. But then the weapon slipped from his fingers and clanged to the ground. He looked at his hand as if surprised, then stumbled. He grabbed the table for support, but fell to his knees, then slumped to the side. Rain pelted the roof. It sounded like a thousand scurrying creatures looking for a way into the building. Shallan forced herself to her feet. Coldness. Yes, she recognized that coldness inside of her now. She’d felt it before, on the day when she’d lost her mother. “Bind Balat’s wounds,” she said, approaching the weeping Eylita. “Use his shirt.” The woman nodded through her tears and began working with trembling fingers. Shallan knelt beside her father. He lay motionless, eyes open and dead, staring at the ceiling.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 871). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

And murder is beyond a reasonable doubt. Not hard to come up with reasonable doubt for this one. A DA talking this to trial would be an idiot.

Poison could have an antidote. A knife through the heart, brain, etc. doesn't. And if she had used the shardblade, that would be instantaneous. And hit him on the head?! Shallan's not exactly tall. And if you had read that section again, you would know that her father knocks her down hard when she tries to intervene to save Balat from being beaten with a poker.

In an intense, dangerous situation like that you go for the best option to protect yourself and others, not the one that may save the murder's life but if you cannot execute it correctly (like Balat with the sword) might cost everyone you are trying to protect. And the law doesn't require you to attempt to non-lethally disarm a murderer in action first. She did what needed to be done given the situation. You know, a vile man with a terrible temper that had just 1st degree murdered their step-mother/his wife.

Edit:

12 hours ago, maxal said:

Shallan should NOT have strangulated her father

Good thing she didn't then!

Edited July 26, 2016 by Argel

maxal · July 26, 2016

1 minute ago, Argel said:

@maxal Shallan does not strangle her father!! Here's the relevant section. Her father goes from about to kill Eylita to falling down dead. SHallan moves to his already dead body.

And murder is beyond a reasonable doubt. Not hard to come up with reasonable doubt for this one. A DA talking this to trial would be an idiot.

Poison could have an antidote. A knife through the heart, brain, etc. doesn't. And if she had used the shardblade, that would be instantaneous. And hit him on the head?! Little Shallan?! If you had actually read that section again, you would know that her father knocks her down hard when she tries to intervene to save Balat from being beaten with a poker.

In an intense, dangerous situation like that you go for the best option to protect yourself and others, not the one that may save the murder's life but if you cannot execute it correctly (like Balat with the sword) might cost everyone you are trying to protect. And the law doesn't require you to attempt to non-lethally disarm a murderer in action first. She did what needed to be done given the situation. You know, a vile man with a terrible temper that had just 1st degree murdered their step-mother/his wife.

I do not have my books, so I cannot check it up, but Shallan does strangle her father while singing a lullaby right after poisoning him. She thinks he is dead, at first, but she sees him coming around, so she kills him. Again.

Little Shallan was old enough to administrate poison and to sing a creepy lullaby as she murdered him she was old enough to hit him on the head while he lay motionless.

I can't presume to know all which happens within law courts, but I do know enough feelings matter very little: acts, intends and laws are all which matters. You can't lie with poison, it is a definite intend to kill and while you may kill someone in self-defense (meaning by accident) you can't decide to kill someone. It just isn't how laws work. Any lawyer would bring it up and wouldn't be an idiot: he would simply do his job in making sure all ends are tied in. We have to stop thinking of "little Shallan" whom we know, but think of her as a random stranger who did the actions she did. You don't judge someone based on how sympathetic they are to you: I love Shallan, but law wise, she killed her father.

It doesn't matter what would be the right moral decision, what matters is what would be the right legal action and legally speaking, Shallan isn't walking out of it without any charges.

This being said, I am out of it folks. It was fun while it lasted, but I will not make further comment with respect to Shallan and the legality of murdering her father.

Argel · July 26, 2016

You're right, but it was right afterwards. But what else were they supposed to do? Would he calm down after everything that happened? And the guards were brutes working for her father and the entire family would be wiped out if it was reported by political opportunists, etc. They really didn't have much choice. I'm not even sure how Nale would view it.

Erklitt · July 26, 2016

7 hours ago, Argel said:

And applying our laws to a medieval/ level society is a stretch at times. What we might call vigilante justice might be just fine for them.

Thanks for bringing this up again, though no one seems to want to hear it. I vote this thread is renamed: how would USA law apply to SA characters. Which is a topic that I seem to remember having seen discussed at length on other threads... Also your latest post: I'm sure Alethi and Jah Keved laws followed common sense as opposed to modern legal hairsplitting.

Argel · July 26, 2016

Yeah, I mean, is there even a court system per se? More like at that level go to the local feudal lord, who will either do what he wants for political advantage or just for kicks -- and we know that would not go well for Shallan's family from previous flashbacks. Or if neutral (laughable as that is), they would be like, "oh, he killed his wife, in cold blood" and with witnesses (don't forget Eylita was there, so it would not just be family members, and the guards would probably testify to seeing Malise dead) then would they really care? For all we know her father gave up all/most of his rights when he murdered his wife, given how big Jah Kaved is on the Vorin religeon.

Pathfinder · July 26, 2016

4 hours ago, Argel said:

Yeah, I mean, is there even a court system per se? More like at that level go to the local feudal lord, who will either do what he wants for political advantage or just for kicks -- and we know that would not go well for Shallan's family from previous flashbacks. Or if neutral (laughable as that is), they would be like, "oh, he killed his wife, in cold blood" and with witnesses (don't forget Eylita was there, so it would not just be family members, and the guards would probably testify to seeing Malise dead) then would they really care? For all we know her father gave up all/most of his rights when he murdered his wife, given how big Jah Kaved is on the Vorin religeon.

so far i have jasnah's and shallan's scene all typed up. Then its adolin and the laws and research into what laws are mentioned in the book. I am going to present modern US/NY law, then possible Alethi/Kharbanthi/Jah Kaved law (drawing from in book references, and legal precedent in earth medieval society), and finally based on what we know, how nale would react. Preliminary research does support your assertion. The regional head would adjudicate. Given there is no forensics during that time period, witness testimony would largely be relied on. The guards and servants were separate from the family due to a high storm occurring so Malise would be discovered after the fact. Hopefully by tomorrow I will have the post ready to start a new thread, and will link it here for any who are curious.

maxal · July 27, 2016

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

so far i have jasnah's and shallan's scene all typed up. Then its adolin and the laws and research into what laws are mentioned in the book. I am going to present modern US/NY law, then possible Alethi/Kharbanthi/Jah Kaved law (drawing from in book references, and legal precedent in earth medieval society), and finally based on what we know, how nale would react. Preliminary research does support your assertion. The regional head would adjudicate. Given there is no forensics during that time period, witness testimony would largely be relied on. The guards and servants were separate from the family due to a high storm occurring so Malise would be discovered after the fact. Hopefully by tomorrow I will have the post ready to start a new thread, and will link it here for any who are curious.

Found the thread I was looking for:

http://www.tor.com/2015/10/15/words-of-radiance-reread-interlude-9/

Read comments @88, @91, @103, @119 and @121 It explains how the legal system would most likely view those crimes and how they would reasonably be trialed for. He says a non-guilty charge for Shallan would be a very long shot (this happens when the jury agrees the accused is guilty but decides the circumstances make it so this person should walk away unpunished, it almost never happens, apparently.), but she'd probably get away with 3rd degree murder as opposed to 1st degree murder due to avoid the State having to pay for a trial. He doesn't specifically talk about self-defense, but battered women charge, but it would be hard to get because the strangulation happens after a "cool out" moment. He says it's be a hard sell, it could happen, but it is no done deal.

He says how poison is universally accepted as 1st degree murder, but he would likely get the charges down to 1st degree to avoid hassle. He says the self-defense plea falls apart because the threat was not direct enough: Malise was already dead and Balat was still alive at the end of the beating. He could go for battered women charge, see above, but the strangulation makes it hard to do so.

Adolin would probably get something in between 1st degree murder to involuntary manslaughter depending on how good of a lawyer/defense he gets. 3rd degree murder seems the most plausible outcome. His definitely is 1st degree murder, but the circumstances may lower his sentence. The only plea he can make is he was "cornered by Sadeas" which isn't exactly true and could easily fall apart.

Jasnah gets 1st or 3rd degree murder charge because she killed men running from the crime scene. You can't plea self-defense when the victim is running away from you unless they end up not being able to prove one was indeed running away.

This being said, it is a grossed summary better if you read it yourself.

Erklitt · July 27, 2016

14 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

[...] Hopefully by tomorrow I will have the post ready to start a new thread, and will link it here for any who are curious.

Thanks, good idea. I was just about to start a new thread on Glys so you guys can go on talking law here, but this way around it's less confusing on the main forum.

So, back to Glys, I have another idea:

What if Glys is the same kind of spren that provide Parshendi nightform? That wouldn't answer the question whether Glys is lying or not: Truthwatcher spren could in fact be the same as Parshendi nightform spren. Or not.

There's a lot in the Listener Songs about the relationship of Parshendi, humans and spren. At least some Parshendi felt that spren preferred humans, so they felt betrayed. (I'll use spoiler boxes so this post doesn't look too long)

From the Listener Song of Spren:

Spoiler

The spren betrayed us, it's often felt.
Our minds are too close to their realm
That gives us our forms, but more is then
Demanded by the smartest spren,
We can't provide what the humans lend,
Though broth are we, their meat is men.

But it is not impossible to blend
Their Surges to ours in the end.
It has been promised and it can come.
Or do we understand the sum?
We questioned not if they can have us then,
But if we dare to have them again.

Listener Song of Spren 9th and 10th Stanza
WoR Ch. 32 The One Who Hates / Ch. 33 Burdens Epigraphs

From the Listener Song of Secrets:

Spoiler

The betrayal of spren has brought us here.
They gave their Surges to human heirs,
But not to those who know them most dear, before us.
'Tis no surprise we turned away
Unto the gods we spent our days
And to become their molding clay, they changed us.

Listener Song of Secrets 40th Stanza
WoR Ch. 38 Boots Epigraph

So what if Glys looks all dark and shadowy? The stanza about nightform fits Renarin surprisingly well (again from the Song of Secrets):

Spoiler

Nightform predicting what will be,
The form of shadows, mind to foresee.
As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered.
A new storm will come, someday to break.
A new storm a new world to make.
A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens.

Listener Song of Secrets 17th Stanza
WoR Ch. 23 Assassin Epigraph

All we've seen him 'foresee' so far is the everstorm. Maybe the 'form of shadows' even has something to do with Renarin's stealth while writing the glyphs. A manifestation of the Truthwatcher variant of Lightweaving, or a lying imitation of it, depending on whether or not Glys is telling the truth?

To be thorough, I'll also add the other mention of nightform, though it doesn't add much to the current topic I think:

Spoiler

Our gods were born splinters of a soul,
Of one who seeks to take control,
Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite.
They are his spren, his gift, his price.
But the nightforms speak of future life,
A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite. ”

Listener Song of Secrets final stanza

WoR Ch. 34 Blossoms and Cake Epigraph

Pathfinder · July 27, 2016

12 hours ago, maxal said:

Found the thread I was looking for:

http://www.tor.com/2015/10/15/words-of-radiance-reread-interlude-9/

Read comments @88, @91, @103, @119 and @121 It explains how the legal system would most likely view those crimes and how they would reasonably be trialed for. He says a non-guilty charge for Shallan would be a very long shot (this happens when the jury agrees the accused is guilty but decides the circumstances make it so this person should walk away unpunished, it almost never happens, apparently.), but she'd probably get away with 3rd degree murder as opposed to 1st degree murder due to avoid the State having to pay for a trial. He doesn't specifically talk about self-defense, but battered women charge, but it would be hard to get because the strangulation happens after a "cool out" moment. He says it's be a hard sell, it could happen, but it is no done deal.

He says how poison is universally accepted as 1st degree murder, but he would likely get the charges down to 1st degree to avoid hassle. He says the self-defense plea falls apart because the threat was not direct enough: Malise was already dead and Balat was still alive at the end of the beating. He could go for battered women charge, see above, but the strangulation makes it hard to do so.

Adolin would probably get something in between 1st degree murder to involuntary manslaughter depending on how good of a lawyer/defense he gets. 3rd degree murder seems the most plausible outcome. His definitely is 1st degree murder, but the circumstances may lower his sentence. The only plea he can make is he was "cornered by Sadeas" which isn't exactly true and could easily fall apart.

Jasnah gets 1st or 3rd degree murder charge because she killed men running from the crime scene. You can't plea self-defense when the victim is running away from you unless they end up not being able to prove one was indeed running away.

This being said, it is a grossed summary better if you read it yourself.

Just posting to clarify one thing for Maxal, and then I will stop so the thread will stop being derailed. So the attorney misrepresented what he meant by poison is always 1st degree murder. What it actually means is if you kill someone with poison, and you are found guilty, the charge would be 1st degree. Not anytime you use poison its murder. Do you see the difference now? I did some research and although the poster never says what state he is from, it appears he is from california. What he is referencing is a class of weapons or occurrences that if found guilty would be considered 1st degree. They impliments/instances listed are as follows:

The means of killing that qualify a homicide as first degree murder include weapons of mass destruction, bombs or explosive devices, armor-piercing ammunition, poison, and firearms shot from a motor vehicle.

Homicide is defined as the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another. So as I said, if you are already proven guilty of homicide, they then determine the level hence 1st degree, 2nd degree and so on. If you were convicted of homicide and used the above listed means then it would be considered 1st degree. This is in regards to California state law. The poster goes on to say in comment 120 that you referenced that Shallan was still under the affect of her snapping, and the issue would be convincing the jury that she was still under the affect of said snapping after the "break" of cooling down.

As I said the main reason for this post was to explain the misunderstanding in regards to the poison as a murder weapon and "always" being considered 1st degree. I will go into all this and more in depth with my post (i am contemplating calling it "Law and Order: Radiant Unit, Stormlight Edition lol), so given the scope it may take me a bit, but I am optimistic. Now back to our regularly scheduled program, er I mean thread.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Pathfinder

Glys

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