Ten books = Ten knights?

[djammmer]

I've heard it stated (speculated?) that there will be one book for each of the types of knights... We already have Windrunner (kalidan), Lightweaver (Shallan), and we know Bondsmith (Dalinar) is next.   We've heard Relarin (Truthfinder) and Jasnah (Elsecaller) will get books in the tail end. 

But we also know Eshoni, and Szeth will get books.   Do we think that means they will become knights?   With Nin talking to Szeth at the end of WoR - he says something like "szeth will join the order of skybreakers".   Its not clear to me if that's an order of the knights; or someone with the powers of the knights (same way Szeth had windrunner powers before, but was not a knight?), or just a name of group of people that Nin will send around to do his bidding.

But Eshoni - can she become a knight radiant?

If Lift got her own book - and she becomes a edgedancer knight; then that would be 6 knights were certain of (wind, light, bonds, truth, else, edge); with 4 remaining (Skybreakers, Dustbringers, Willshapers, Stonewards)

 

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Taln is also one of the books and he would be a solid candidate for Stonewards.

Shalash is the other remaining book character and this is troublesome - if she is the Patron of the Lightweavers then we would have a repeat of the order.

[Stormgate he/him]

As far as I know, Szeth may become a Knight, Eshonai might become a Knight, and we will get information about the other three in years to come.

[DSC01 he/him]

I bet that Shalash is going to change Orders. She'll be the Dustbringer.

[djammmer]

Ah, so one hypothetical:

    Szeth = Skybreaker, Taln = Stoneward, and Eshoni/Shalash to be Dustbringer/willshaper.

Another hypothetical:

    There is not one book per radiant.

 

Do we know If Lift is getting a book in the last 5? (Or am I just being overly hopeful.  I know she gets a novella in the fall.)

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Just now, djammmer said:

Do we know If Lift is getting a book in the last 5? (Or am I just being overly hopeful.  I know she gets a novella in the fall.)

Yes, Lift is slated to be one of the mains in the back 5.

[DSC01 he/him]

It seems like it would be very odd for all of the books to follow a pattern of one major character per Order, then suddenly not do that for one or two books. The scope of The Stormlight Archive, with all of its characters and lengthy volumes, seems to merit that kind of structure to keep the narrative cohesive.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Brandon has said that while each book will focus on a character via flashbacks and will also each focus on an Order of Knights Radiant, the character will not always be a member of the Order:

Quote

[17th Shard's report]

Questioner

What are the other books in The Stormlight Archive going to be about?

Brandon Sanderson

Well each one is going to cover a flashback sequence for one of the characters and each one will focus on a different order of the Knights Radiant. And that's not always the same, like the flashbacks for the first one were Kaladin and it was also Windrunners, but we won't always have them be the exact same.

 

[maxal she/her]

There is a lot of contradicting information on this one. Weiry posted one of the strong reference on the matter, where Brandon explains the pattern for book 1 and 2 would not repeat itself for all books, but he has also confirmed elsewhere the main characters and the flashback characters were the same. Therefore, if each book is to focus on one Order championed by one character, then the 10 we have listed have to be our 10 major knights. 

In other words, according to the author, the only characters which are "authorized" to move up to this first spot labeled "primary or secondary main character", which may not always be the flashback one, but certainly is the focus knight, are the flashback characters. Therefore, there is no other way but to have Eshonai and Szeth become Radiant and Shalash to change order. Unless Brandon only meant the first arc, which is possible, but so are my current assumptions. I see no working around it based on the book structure.

Everyone else can only aspire to be a tertiary character or a novella character or an interlude character, nothing more. If there are additional knights (and there will be), they will all be minor ones. 

[djammmer]

So let's take for a moment the hypothesis that Eshoni can become a KR.  Any ideas how that can happen?   Is she really a voidbringer?, and can a voidbringer become a KR?  Do we think all the songforms for the Parshendi come from Odium?, or does just stormform come from odium?   Is there a songfrom that would be compatible w/ KR, or maybe attract spren from honor (as opposed to the red spren from Odium that stormform seems to be attracting?)

[Argel he/him]

I thought the Listeners predate Odium? Regardless, there's a WoB somehwere about there being a difference between "being of" and "being influenced by", meaning that when the influence is not there they can act on their own agendas.  I think the discussion was more about Ruin and Kandras, but it applies here as well -- in fact, we know the Parshendi where so concerned about Gavilar bringing their gods back that they had him assassinated. Not exactly in Odium's interests.... 

Anyway, it seems clear from the PoV's, etc. that so far only Stormform asserts itself over their will. And Brandon has RAFO'd if the herlads are all from Roshar. If they can be worldhoppers, then what requires them to be human specifically? And we know Listeners and Humans are compatible enough to have children (e.g. Shallan's red hair, Herdazians all trace back to the races intermingling). 

I don't think we know anything that would absolutely prevent it at this point and we have WoBs that suggest it's possible. I guess we'llhave to RAFO. Sigh.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

On 7/18/2016 at 5:59 PM, maxal said:

There is a lot of contradicting information on this one. Weiry posted one of the strong reference on the matter, where Brandon explains the pattern for book 1 and 2 would not repeat itself for all books, but he has also confirmed elsewhere the main characters and the flashback characters were the same. Therefore, if each book is to focus on one Order championed by one character, then the 10 we have listed have to be our 10 major knights. 

In other words, according to the author, the only characters which are "authorized" to move up to this first spot labeled "primary or secondary main character", which may not always be the flashback one, but certainly is the focus knight, are the flashback characters. Therefore, there is no other way but to have Eshonai and Szeth become Radiant and Shalash to change order. Unless Brandon only meant the first arc, which is possible, but so are my current assumptions. I see no working around it based on the book structure.

Everyone else can only aspire to be a tertiary character or a novella character or an interlude character, nothing more. If there are additional knights (and there will be), they will all be minor ones. 

I'm not sure I agree with you here that there is contradicting.  He says that each book will focus on an Order, he does /not/ say that there will be 10 major Knight (or at least I can't recall anything to that effect).

Edited July 20, 2016 by WeiryWriter

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Since we might have flashback POVs who are dead during the major plotline, flasback character and main Radiant character are not necessary the same. So, theoretically, I guess we could, for example get a book with Shalash's flashbacks but someone else (Adolin, Rysn, Moash... insert random Stormlight character without flashbacks) as a main Radiant character.

[maxal she/her]

7 hours ago, WeiryWriter said:

I'm not sure I agree with you here that there is contradicting.  He says that each book will focus on an Order, he does /not/ say that there will be 10 major Knight (or at least I can't recall anything to that effect).

Fair point.

I have managed to ask him about the distinction in between the "flashback" characters and the "main" characters. He told me they were the same, in his mind at least, as these were the characters he has designed the story around. What I do not know is if he was referring to the first arc or to both arcs. Based on the wording, I think he meant the first arc and for the first arc, the main characters are Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Szeth and Eshonai. There is no getting around it.

Where my personal interpretation comes in is where I state those are the only characters "authorized" to move onto those first three spots, labeled "primary main character" and "secondary main character". He didn't technically said that, but his answer more or less confirmed it. If the main characters are the same as the flashback characters, then surely the only top three characters have to be taken among those five, right? This being said, it may be what he refers to as "main character" only is the top character, which was Kaladin for WoK and Shallan for WoR, but then again, I am taking his nomenclature out of his own plan which he published on Reddit..... So where am I reading it wrong, I do not know. Based on my understanding, the "primary/secondary main characters" are the only ones which are allowed to have POV time into each part, anyone else have to live with lesser page time.

I do not recall him saying there would be 10 major knights, but I do think he said there were 10 main characters (or I may have imagined this) only and since he later confirmed those where the same as the flashback characters then.... I am back to square one. If the 10 aren't all knights, then it means there will be orders without a main character... I must say this isn't impossible, but it seems rather unlikely. Therefore, if it is the case, then Szeth, Eshonai and Shalash have to be Radiants.

We must also take a few other WoB in consideration. He did say we would have to wait for a Dustbringer to become a "main character" before learning more about this order. This therefore tells us there will be a main character belonging to the Dustbringer order and since those are restrained to the flashback characters then... I am again back to square one.

7 hours ago, Chull #445 said:

Since we might have flashback POVs who are dead during the major plotline, flasback character and main Radiant character are not necessary the same. So, theoretically, I guess we could, for example get a book with Shalash's flashbacks but someone else (Adolin, Rysn, Moash... insert random Stormlight character without flashbacks) as a main Radiant character.

This has been my assumption for a long time up until I had the confirmation the flashback characters were the main characters. I specifically asked about Adolin and the answer was rather clear: he isn't a main character nor will he ever become one, but his story arc may ultimately have more page than Szeth who is scheduled to be the main character of book 5, but book 5 only or so is my understanding.

Adolin, specifically, is never moving up the ladder of character and "tertiary character 1" is the best we can hope for him. I assume it will be the same for others which haven't been mentioned into the select club of "important characters".

[galendo]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin, specifically, is never moving up the ladder of character and "tertiary character 1" is the best we can hope for him. I assume it will be the same for others which haven't been mentioned into the select club of "important characters".

The thing I think you're missing, though, is that "tertiary character 1" presumably just means that he isn't the main character of a book or the lead "B plot" character of a book.  Look at Words of Radiance.  He wasn't the lead (Shallan) or the second lead (Kaladin), but he got basically the same number of words/POVs as Dalinar, and more so by far than any other character.  He's had over 50,000 words so far in the first two books alone.

Adolin is not a minor character.  He is not an unimportant character, either.

Now, I don't claim to know what the future may hold for Adolin, but he's going to have quite a few more POVs in Oathbringer, if the end of WoR is anything to judge by.  I don't know if he'll survive into the back five books, but I'm guessing that he has a better life expectancy than Dalinar does.  If he does survive into the back five, it's conceivable that Adolin might end up with more page time than any characters beyond Kaladin, Shallan, and maybe Eshtonai and/or Lift.

That's wouldn't be a minor character at all.  I can't guarantee you he'll fulfill this potential -- I can't even guarantee you he'll survive to book 5, much less past it -- but Adolin has the potential, at least, to be one of Stormlight Archive's very major characters.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@maxalAll depends on wording, it seems. But each book will focus on a specific order, and this is done easiest through making its main character a Radiant of that order. We will simply have to see what happens.

[DSC01 he/him]

Okay, so I have an idea for how the main, flashback character might not match the Order that the book is dedicated to. It will have to be Shalash's book, specifically (though I can see how something similar might also work for Szeth).

So, Shalash isn't exactly a Lightweaver, except that she is the head of the Order. We don't yet know enough history to say whether the heralds would truly be considered part of their Order or not, but one must at least concede that there is a strong association there. We must therefore assume that something is going on with Shalash and the Order she is associated with because we know that the Lightweaver book has already happened.

Now, with only one Lightweaver for reference, I don't know how accurate it is to say that they're the artists' Order, but it does seem like Lightweavers generally do at least have the artistic temperament. What has Shalash been doing in the artistic realm? Destroying art. While I'm sure that there are some modernist schools of artistic thought that would judge her campaign of destroying all representations of herself as a valid artistic statement (and, sure, I can see that), I believe that her actions are antithetical to the spirit of the Lightweavers' brand of art.

I therefore believe that if her book is not about her changing Orders, it will be about her coming to accept her place at the head of the Lightweavers after a personal crisis that sees her flirting with joining the Dustbringers. Yes, the two Orders aren't direct opposites on the Radiant chart, but they are probably opposites in many ways. The little we know about Dustbringers suggests that they are all about destruction (if for a good reason) in the same way that Lightweavers could be said to be about creation. 

Thus, her book could cover a lot of information about the Dustbringers by way of her interactions with full members and by the internal struggle that pushes her closer to the temperament of a Dustbringer than a Lightweaver.

[maxal she/her]

17 hours ago, galendo said:

The thing I think you're missing, though, is that "tertiary character 1" presumably just means that he isn't the main character of a book or the lead "B plot" character of a book.  Look at Words of Radiance.  He wasn't the lead (Shallan) or the second lead (Kaladin), but he got basically the same number of words/POVs as Dalinar, and more so by far than any other character.  He's had over 50,000 words so far in the first two books alone.

Adolin is not a minor character.  He is not an unimportant character, either.

Now, I don't claim to know what the future may hold for Adolin, but he's going to have quite a few more POVs in Oathbringer, if the end of WoR is anything to judge by.  I don't know if he'll survive into the back five books, but I'm guessing that he has a better life expectancy than Dalinar does.  If he does survive into the back five, it's conceivable that Adolin might end up with more page time than any characters beyond Kaladin, Shallan, and maybe Eshtonai and/or Lift.

That's wouldn't be a minor character at all.  I can't guarantee you he'll fulfill this potential -- I can't even guarantee you he'll survive to book 5, matuch less past it -- but Adolin has the potential, at least, to be one of Stormlight Archive's very major characters.

Have you seen Brandon plans for SA3? It illustrates the difference in between the numerous character denotations. For instance, the only characters allowed to have POV within all parts of a given book are the main characters, namely the primary and the secondary main characters. Among the secondary characters, one will skip one part, but the other will have POV time within all parts. For SA3, the primary main character is Dalinar, which means there are Dalinar POV, excluding the flashbacks, within all parts of the book. The secondary main characters are Shallan and Kaladin, though which one is which has not bee determined yet.

After this we move onto the tertiary characters. Tertiary character 1 has POV time within two parts plus he has a small role to play within the ending climax. The other tertiary characters have POV time within one part only plus a very small role into the ending climax. One tertiary character has no role at all within part 5, so this character has POV into one part only. Adolin was tertiary character 1 for WoR. While I do know he is one of the tertiary characters for SA3, I do not know which one: he may be one again or he may be four, I cannot say. I haven't been able to find this information and I have dreaded to ask.

In term of word count, I recall reading someone who has actually made it and Dalinar has two times the number of words Adolin, who sits in the fourth position with respect to word count. My assumptions, after reading WoR, have been he would grow as a character and eventually become a more major one as the story moves forward: it seemed impossible to conceive Adolin's page time would not increase going into the next book. Ever since, I have found out Adolin was not only never getting his own book, never getting his own spotlight, he was also never getting to be one of those characters with a large story arc spanning across all parts. Brandon has confirmed Adolin has "roughly" the same number of POV as he had in other books. Roughly, though what it means by it is unclear: he did say he had less than Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar. However, we do know Adolin does not have POV within Part 1 which is the longest part ever written. We also know Part 2 heavily focus on another character we haven't yet meet (Part 2 mostly is a novella with a few bouts from the main narrative), anyone else having a very small role to play. It thus appears as if Adolin does not have POV time within Part 2 either which is another long part bringing us to half of SA3. 

Therefore, there isn't much else to conclude other than there will close to no Adolin related action/development until half of SA3 which implies the aftermath of Sadeas's death won't be seen through his eyes, but Dalinar. It also confirms Adolin simply isn't a major player as if the author doesn't use the events of WoR to further write and delve within the character, then he has no intention to do so at a later time. He will write more of Adolin, but it probably won't be the kind of arc his numerous fans have hoped for. It will probably be a very small arc which will mostly accumulate onto a climax serving Dalinar's growth.

There is no indication of Adolin having any role at all within the second half of SA. He wasn't a planned character, so he definitely is not planned to have one. I personally do not expect much coming from him anymore. There will be a few small bits and a tiny arc, but I doubt it will feel as satisfying as Kaladin (or anyone else) story. 

Adolin had a lot of potential, but I do not think the Stormlight Archive will develop it. It just isn't his story, it isn't built around him: he only exists to be a foil. Of course, I could be wrong and, trust me, I want to be wrong, but I have to take the words of the author into account: he has never hinted Adolin had an important role within the story to come. He doesn't even mention him when he does his SA3 updates. Readers ask about him, but unless asked, Brandon never broaches the subject of Adolin. Maybe it's because it is to spoiler-y, but at this point in time, if he doesn't mention Adolin into his Part 2 update, then it has to mean he has no role to play within it: too many readers are looking out for Adolin for him to skip him into his updates unless he truly isn't there.

It is just best to accept Adolin simply isn't major character material. I mean, there must be a reason no author has written such a character before. 

6 hours ago, DSC01 said:

Okay, so I have an idea for how the main, flashback character might not match the Order that the book is dedicated to. It will have to be Shalash's book, specifically (though I can see how something similar might also work for Szeth).

So, Shalash isn't exactly a Lightweaver, except that she is the head of the Order. We don't yet know enough history to say whether the heralds would truly be considered part of their Order or not, but one must at least concede that there is a strong association there. We must therefore assume that something is going on with Shalash and the Order she is associated with because we know that the Lightweaver book has already happened.

Now, with only one Lightweaver for reference, I don't know how accurate it is to say that they're the artists' Order, but it does seem like Lightweavers generally do at least have the artistic temperament. What has Shalash been doing in the artistic realm? Destroying art. While I'm sure that there are some modernist schools of artistic thought that would judge her campaign of destroying all representations of herself as a valid artistic statement (and, sure, I can see that), I believe that her actions are antithetical to the spirit of the Lightweavers' brand of art.

I therefore believe that if her book is not about her changing Orders, it will be about her coming to accept her place at the head of the Lightweavers after a personal crisis that sees her flirting with joining the Dustbringers. Yes, the two Orders aren't direct opposites on the Radiant chart, but they are probably opposites in many ways. The little we know about Dustbringers suggests that they are all about destruction (if for a good reason) in the same way that Lightweavers could be said to be about creation. 

Thus, her book could cover a lot of information about the Dustbringers by way of her interactions with full members and by the internal struggle that pushes her closer to the temperament of a Dustbringer than a Lightweaver.

Or it could be book 6 will feature Jasnah's flashback, but the featured order will be the Stonewards... It could happen. However, the author has more or less closed the door on anyone not being a flashback character ever being a top three character. Since we do know we will have to wait for a Dusbringer, whom we may or may not have met, to become a main character before finding out more about the order, then it basically leaves either Eshonai or Shalash as their representative since nobody else can be a main character.

I feel like it is going into endless circles. No matter how I shuffle it, I get to the same conclusions. 

Also, Brandon does consider the Herald as members of their orders thus de-facto making Taln the major Stonewards character. Shalash remains a bizarre one, so order swapping may be inline for her or maybe the arc you suggested. I cannot say, but the Dustbringers have been the bizarre order since the beginning, the one order we do not get a clear flashback/main character for.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

22 minutes ago, maxal said:

He wasn't a planned character, so he definitely is not planned to have one.

One bright spot in this is the Era 2 Mistborn was not planned either but suddenly had its own trilogy haha. Adolin may not have been planned in the original Way of Kings Prime but neither was the Shattered Plains. Reading Brandon's annotations showed me that despite how much Brandon plans sooooooo much changes while he writes. I hope you are not completely dismissing the possibility of Adolin getting more time and/or a fuller arc. I think there is a pretty solid chance Adolin's character will surprise us. I mean, look at what Brandon did with Spook after, basically, ignoring him for two of the three Mistborn Era 1 books!

[maxal she/her]

2 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

One bright spot in this is the Era 2 Mistborn was not planned either but suddenly had its own trilogy haha. Adolin may not have been planned in the original Way of Kings Prime but neither was the Shattered Plains. Reading Brandon's annotations showed me that despite how much Brandon plans sooooooo much changes while he writes. I hope you are not completely dismissing the possibility of Adolin getting more time and/or a fuller arc. I think there is a pretty solid chance Adolin's character will surprise us. I mean, look at what Brandon did with Spook after, basically, ignoring him for two of the three Mistborn Era 1 books!

You make a fair point. I have to bow down. I sincerely hope you are right but I am, unfortunately, terrible at dealing with anticipation. I'd rather know what to expect, hence my endless dissecting of WoB, trying to figure what the "plan" is precisely.  Also, it isn't I am totally dismissing the possibility, but I fear if it doesn't happen in book three, after the massive cliffhanger of WoR, then it seems unlikely to happen afterwards.

Spook indeed was an unplanned character which Brandon thought needed more page time, but Stormlight seems to be a different beast. I have no idea where the story is going nor am I am capable of actually knowing what makes a good story or not, but it definitely sounds as if it needs a given string of events to come to fruition and this string of events passes through specific characters. Also what one considers a "full satisfying arc" may strongly differ from one reader to another and from the readers to the author as well: I a not entirely sure what I would consider such myself. I certainly consider Kaladin and Shallan to have full arcs which aren't completed, but have already come to fruition so often they certainly will continue on the same pace.