Spren and Shattering and Splintering

[yulerule]

So we know that Adonalsium visited Roshar before the Shattering, and there have been Spren there since there. After the Shattering, when Cultivation and Honor settled there, the spren changed somehow? Maybe there's more of them, not sure about that.

 At some point Odium visited, and Desolations started happening, So Heralds were (created?/chosen?) After some time, spren began to imitate Honorblades and Knight Radiants came into existence. I think the Shattering came next (and betrayl of Oathpact? not sure of the sequence) Then the desolations were over and recorded histrory started. Then The Recreance happened. 

Is my timeline right? 

Also how were emotionspren (which are basically spren of Honor) changed by the Shattering?

 

 

Also, are Knights Radiant immortal? Syl says that practically all of the thinking spren were killed by the Recreance. I would assume that if a Radiant dies, the spren becomes unbonded but isn't killed. And the spren itself may decide whether to bond again or not. So that means if almost all thinking spren were killed, then almost all thinking spren were bonded, and I would assume some spren may retire if their radiant dies normally, especially as Desolations had stopped. Also, Stormlight heals you to the way you see yourself, so if Radiants see themselves the way they are, or think of themselves as yound, they wouldn't age.

Edited July 6, 2016 by yulerule

[+Kolten]

I thought syl meant all of the thinking spren in the physical realm. I mean we know there are populations of these spren in shadesmar. I am guessing that any spren that might have "retired" would have gone back to shadesmar. Either that or after their radiant dies they go mindless again and begin losing memories until they bond someone else.

Not sure about immortality, but I bet they age. Maybe more slowly though. 

[yulerule]

My interpretation that almost all of the thinking spren were bonded, and thus in the physical realm, and the populations that are now in the cognitive realm were the ones "formed" after the recreance. Yes, when I said retired that's exactly what I meant, that they go back to the Cognitive Realm and stay there.

[Pathfinder]

Also regarding stormlight healing you to be "immortal" I believe (but do not have the quotes to absolutely state with certainty), is like with feruchemical gold. Your spiritual self knows how old you "should be", so despite constantly healing your body, you will age, and you will die. That is why the Lord Ruler needed his atium trick. Other forms of immortality use different methods. One is hoping into the future in bursts. Another is the Elantrians, though eventually they can get tired of being immortal and "die" in the pool. 

[+Kolten]

25 minutes ago, yulerule said:

My interpretation that almost all of the thinking spren were bonded, and thus in the physical realm, and the populations that are now in the cognitive realm were the ones "formed" after the recreance. Yes, when I said retired that's exactly what I meant, that they go back to the Cognitive Realm and stay there.

That could make sense. Syl seems to have some memories of the days of the Knights Radiant, but those could have been from some older "retired" spren who were able to pass down the knowledge . . .

When Jasnah returns she talks about how none of the spren would trust her. That they still felt greatly betrayed by the humans, some sort of record must have been preserved of what happened on the spren side of things 

Also what is special about the Stormfather that allowed him to not be broken like the other spren? It does talk about bondsmiths being around before the day of recreance . . . Is he also a "new" Stormfather maybe? That was not the impression I got

[yulerule]

I remember reading somewhere that the Stormfather is the Cognitive Shadow of Honor, but not quite. 

[yulerule]

Regarding feruchemical gold, it doesn't seem like it uses Identity to heal. I think in general this specific case, Surges are more powerful than the Metallic arts. Case in point: Regrowth can bring someone from the dead, none of the Metallic Arts can do that. So while both systems have a Healing ability, I believe it works differently. Hoid said that the Rosharan Lightweaving was very similar to the Yolish variant, in other words, same ability (Lightweaving) may be different depending what system of magic is expressing it.

 

Any comment if my timeline is correct?

Edited July 6, 2016 by yulerule

[Oversleep]

1 minute ago, yulerule said:

Regarding feruchemical gold, it doesn't seem like it uses Identity to heal. I think in general this specific case, Surges are more powerful than the Metallic arts. Case in point: Regrowth can bring someone from the dead, none of the Metallic Arts can do that. So while both systems have a Healing ability, I believe it works differently. Hoid said that the Rosharan Lightweaving was very similar to the Yolish variant, in other words, same ability (Lightweaving) may be different depending what system of magic is expressing it.

All the healing in the cosmere works under the same principles, be it Feruchemical gold, Stormlight or Regrowth. The healing pushes the Physical Aspect (the body) to match the Spiritual Aspect (soul...roughly) filtered through Cognitive Aspect (how you view yourself). That's why Kaladin's brands won't heal.

[Argent]

17 minutes ago, yulerule said:

I remember reading somewhere that the Stormfather is the Cognitive Shadow of Honor, but not quite. 

The popular belief here is that there was once a spren, the Rider of Storms as the Parshendi call him, that merged somehow with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow and became the being we now know as the Stormfather. 

[yulerule]

13 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

All the healing in the cosmere works under the same principles, be it Feruchemical gold, Stormlight or Regrowth. The healing pushes the Physical Aspect (the body) to match the Spiritual Aspect (soul...roughly) filtered through Cognitive Aspect (how you view yourself). That's why Kaladin's brands won't heal.

What you're desccribing is Stormlight healing. My point with the lightweaving is that the same ability might work differently in different systems. So I don't think its ever been stated that feruchemical gold also works like that. (It can, but we don't know that for sure.)

[Oversleep]

52 minutes ago, yulerule said:

What you're desccribing is Stormlight healing.

No, I'm not. You see, when I say that both Stormlight healing and Feruchemical gold work under the same principles, I mean that both Stormlight healing and Feruchemical gold work under the same principles.
Relevant WoB:

Quote

Kurk: Is there any difference between the healing that Feruchemical gold and held Stormlight can accomplish?

A: There are minor differences, but they work on the same principle, so...
source

 

[yulerule]

Ok, thanks for the WoB, I was going off what was written, and since we didn't have any feuchemists that didn't heal completly, I thought it might be different. So okay, you're right. So if the Lord Ruler needed atium to be immortal (youth) then I suppose Cosmere healing can only make you a really healthy old person, but the person will still age. So the only known biological immortality is the Elantrian magic. I guess you could use Forging, but both that and atium require constant upkeep.

Oh and having Divine Breath, buth that also requries consant consiming of Breath.

Edited July 6, 2016 by yulerule

[yulerule]

Quote

spren existed on Roshar before the Shattering. Not as many.

Q: Was Honor Shattered before or after the Recreance?

A: I believe after. I'm pretty sure. I mean, he has memories of the Recreance.

So I found these WoBs. 

So in a manner similar to atium, which was part of Ruin's power, and while it was outside of him, he was weaker, spren before and after the Shattering are part of the power of the shards. 

[+Kolten]

21 minutes ago, yulerule said:

 

Oh and having Divine Breath, buth that also requries consant consiming of Breath.

Also getting to the fifth heightening without dying that also makes you immune to aging. 

[Emerald101]

2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

All the healing in the cosmere works under the same principles, be it Feruchemical gold, Stormlight or Regrowth. The healing pushes the Physical Aspect (the body) to match the Spiritual Aspect (soul...roughly) filtered through Cognitive Aspect (how you view yourself). That's why Kaladin's brands won't heal.

Warbreaker Spoilers:

Spoiler

So how was Susebron able to have his tongue healed by lightsong's divine breath? I'd be very surprised if Susebron's cognitive view of himself didn't include having his tongue cut out. Does divine breath healing just interact less with the cognitive?

 

[+Kolten]

It is not just how you view yourself but also how everyone else views you too. Pretty much everyone besides the priests views the king as the most powerful person in their society, that probably includes having a tongue. Plus the divine breath is a lot of investiture, perhaps lightsong could pass it a mental image in spite of Susebrons spiritual view of himself.

[Argel]

Warbreaker

Spoiler

The appearance of the Returned is magically altered and they are immortal, which Healing cannot do. So why do you think Susebron's tongue was Healed? Sometimes semantics do matter....

 

[Oversleep]

(Warbreaker spoilers, I guess)

Well, IIRC the whole issue with Breath is that each one puts you closer to Endowment or something like that. That's why with each Heightening you gain longer lifespan and why at Fifth you stop aging at all and become immune to toxins (such as alcohol).

With Awakening, Breaths make objects alive. They change them to be more like human body (more or less). I guess Divine Breath powers forcibly through the limitation of the Cognitive... Was this WoBed by any chance?

Edited July 7, 2016 by Oversleep

[Argel]

Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

Divine Breaths are splinters of Endowment.

@Oversleep You should probably spoiler tag the Warbreaker stuff....

Edited July 7, 2016 by Argel

[Pathfinder]

Renarin had glasses from what I recall, his entire life, but stormlight healed that. They way I see it, Susebron knows he should have a tongue, and knows it was cut out and was damaged from what it was originally, so his cognitive identity, even though it was always cut, would still say he should have it and would heal it. Just like Renarin always had glasses, but knows he his vision is damaged vision when compared to others because of his necessity to use it, so stormlight healed it. Kal feels deep down he deserves those scars. That the scars are how his body should be. Which is why they never heal, yet it heals the tattoo ink. That is just my own interpretation. I know there is a whole host of terms, and rules that could utterly negate everything I said. Just a thought. Let me know if I am utterly and completely off lol. 

[Emerald101]

16 hours ago, Argel said:

Warbreaker

  Reveal hidden contents

The appearance of the Returned is magically altered and they are immortal, which Healing cannot do. So why do you think Susebron's tongue was Healed? Sometimes semantics do matter....

 

The way things were described in the book led me to that conclusion. I guess I might be assuming that it's similar to stormlight/Feruchemical gold when it could be something else entirely.

[Elendtheking]

23 hours ago, yulerule said:

 At some point Odium visited, and Desolations started happening, So Heralds were (created?/chosen?) After some time, spren began to imitate Honorblades and Knight Radiants came into existence. I think the Shattering came next 

When you say shattering, what are you talking about? Because from my understanding no shards were killed between the creation of the radiants and the betrayal of the oathpact.

[Oversleep]

12 hours ago, Argel said:

Warbreaker spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Divine Breaths are splinters of Endowment.

@Oversleep You should probably spoiler tag the Warbreaker stuff....

Why? I thought that right now the only things that should be spoiler tagged are Shadows Of Self, Bands Of Mourning, Secret History and White Sand. And I'm not even sure that SoS requires spoilers anymore.

[Eki]

5 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Why? I thought that right now the only things that should be spoiler tagged are Shadows Of Self, Bands Of Mourning, Secret History and White Sand. And I'm not even sure that SoS requires spoilers anymore.

Well, this is the Stormlight section.

From the Spoiler Policy:

For an individual book or series forum, spoiler tags must always be used if one is referencing another series (like, if someone is posting in Mistborn, but referencing Stormlight Archive). However, if a book in that series has been out more than six months, spoilers are now permitted in that forum without needing to be tagged. So, for example, there would be a window where Alloy of Law spoilers require a spoiler notification, but a few months later, that would no longer be a problem.

[+hwiles]

On 7/6/2016 at 7:16 PM, Emerald101 said:

Warbreaker Spoilers:

  Hide contents

So how was Susebron able to have his tongue healed by lightsong's divine breath? I'd be very surprised if Susebron's cognitive view of himself didn't include having his tongue cut out. Does divine breath healing just interact less with the cognitive?

 

There's actually somewhat of an in-book explanation for that.  Warbreaker Spoilers:

Spoiler

"Amazing how well he can speak, she thought.  Never having had a tongue.  What did Lightsong's Breath do?  It healed more than his body, it gave him the capacity to use the regrown tongue."

Healing with a Divine Breath is...sort of different from other healing mechanisms in the Cosmere in some ways.  I imagine it's still rooted in how people perceive themselves and how their spiritual selves perceive their physical bodies, ie: Susebron knew he had had his tongue cut out and recognized it, more or less, as a disability despite accepting it as a distinctive and identifying aspect of his entire life and personality; but cognitive acceptance doesn't necessarily imply spiritual acceptance.

If that weren't enough, the above quote should thoroughly depict how a Divine Breath does more than just heal.  I believe in the annotations Sanderson admits that he's still working out the rules for how Divine Breaths operate, so there's not a lot of information available at the moment.  It seems to me that, in addition to healing him, the Divine Breath actually went so far as to rewrite his spirit web to grant him skills he otherwise had no way of having.  Even if Susebron's spiritual aspect had rejected having his tongue healed, it's possible that the Divine Breath could have "healed" his spiritual aspect of this proclivity.