Atium behaves like it's not Invested

[Oversleep]

I think it could have been already answered, but... how can atium be Pulled or Pushed on if it's basically condensed Investiture? Normal objects which are Invested are harder to be influenced by Allomancy but something which is basically pure essence of a Shard can be affected normally?

[Master_Moridin he/him]

Here's the WoB for reference

Viper

Hah. So in Cosmere, does physics work the same way in the physical realm as it does in our world? Specifically, particle physics; and are atoms made up of protons and neutrons and electrons, and is light photons, etc?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes.

Viper
So what's at the core of an atom of Atium? Ate-teum? Also how do you pronounce it? At-teum?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes. And the matter is just normal matter, but it's wrapped in the spiritual. The Spiritual DNA [or something] is what makes it magical.

Viper
(Note: he might've said slightly more about this but I didn't write it down and I don't remember. Sorry for not bringing a tape recorder :(/> )
(source)

 

[Eki]

3 hours ago, Three1415 said:

As far as I'm aware, none of the Allomantic metals are by themselves invested--e.g., you can burn pewter, but it is not itself invested. As Brandon has said multiple times, both in the books and in WoBs, the metals are a key to access Investiture, not a source of it by themselves; thus, it makes sense for Atium to be a gateway to pure Ruinous Investiture by virtue of having been made from it, rather than being a source of that Investiture on its own (if it was, one couldn't burn it properly anyway).

I'm not sure if it's explicitly stated anywhere, but god metals are supposed to work differently. Atium is the body of Ruin - not just a key. I think there is some WoB about this, but I'm not sure...

Also, I think the books do (wrongly) say that the power comes from the metals, because that's what most characters think is the case. From their perspective, the metals really do seem to give powers. It might be different now that people know about Preservation, but still.

Edit: I haven't found the WoB I was thinking about, but there is one that says that burning atium isn't like burning other metals, it's more like when Vin burned the mists (ie the body of Preservation).

Edited July 4, 2016 by Eki

[Yata he/him]

38 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I think it could have been already answered, but... how can atium be Pulled or Pushed on if it's basically condensed Investiture? Normal objects which are Invested are harder to be influenced by Allomancy but something which is basically pure essence of a Shard can be affected normally?

We have a WoB that says The Atium is quite a normal Metal but with an "extra Spiritual layer" on it.

Probably it's more a gateway to a small amount of Investiture than Investiture itself.

[Oversleep]

30 minutes ago, Yata said:

We have a WoB that says The Atium is quite a normal Metal but with an "extra Spiritual layer" on it.

Probably it's more a gateway to a small amount of Investiture than Investiture itself.

You mean it's not actual object but reference to it actually Investiture but a gateway to certain part of Investiture?

[Yata he/him]

11 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

You mean it's not actual object but reference to it actually Investiture but a gateway to certain part of Investiture?

Yes but my first sentence is taken from a WoB (I can't find it but I have a good memory).
The second one is a Speculation of mine, not sure proof... just the more linear solution.

 

Like if the stolen Ruin's Power remained "somewhere" and the Pits generated metal-key to access it.

[Argel he/him]

Maybe it creates a Connection?

[Windrunner he/him]

If you think about it, it's not that odd. Preservation and Ruin created Scadrial themselves, every piece of metal that any Allomancer has Pushed or Pulled on was created from pure investiture when the Shards made the planet. That doesn't make it harder for an Allomancer to Push or Pull on it. Atium and lerasium are merely unique in that they are a single side of that coin, they aren't made from both Preservation and Ruin, they come from one or the other.

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Windrunner said:

If you think about it, it's not that odd. Preservation and Ruin created Scadrial themselves, every piece of metal that any Allomancer has Pushed or Pulled on was created from pure investiture when the Shards made the planet. That doesn't make it harder for an Allomancer to Push or Pull on it. Atium and lerasium are merely unique in that they are a single side of that coin, they aren't made from both Preservation and Ruin, they come from one or the other.

It have to be more than that.

If an Allomancer travels on Roshar and gently ask to a Soulcaster to create some Steel from Crem for him. The result aren't Tanavastium (if Stormlight is from Honor), Romancium (if are both of H&C) or Adonalsiumsium (if it come to Adonalsium) but simple Steel (if the Soulcaster isn't drunk).

The GodMetals have to be something different than simply "is made by my investiture" what this difference may be I really don't know... It can't be a matter of power's density or the GodMetal would be Investiture's resistant and can't be only the source of power or every bit of metal on Scadrial would be Harmonium 

Until now I think the better explaination is about their ability to channel a specific amount of Shard's Power separate from the whole.

If you thinked about Ruin can't reclame his stolen power from the Pits themself and of course we know there was some of his Investiture doesn't not cristallizate in Atium.

He needed the Atium to absorb/access his own Investiture.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Yata

[Windrunner he/him]

Check out this epigraph though.

Quote

It may seem odd to those reading this that atium was part of the body of a god. However, it is necessary to understand that when we said "body" we generally meant "power." As my mind has expanded, I've come to realize that objects and energy are actually composed of the very same things, and can change state from one to another. It makes perfect sense to me that the power of godhood would be manifest within the world in physical form. Ruin and Preservation were not nebulous abstractions. They were integral parts of existence. In a way, every object that existed in the world was composed of their power.
Atium, then, was an object that was one-sided. Instead of being composed of half Ruin and half Preservation—as, say, a rock would be—atium was completely of Ruin. The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin's body that he had stolen away during the betrayal and imprisonment. Kelsier didn't truly destroy this place by shattering those crystals, for they would have regrown eventually—in a few hundred years—and continued to deposit atium, as the place was a natural outlet for Ruin's trapped power.

When people burned atium, then, they were drawing upon the power of Ruin—which is, perhaps, why atium turned people into such efficient killing machines. They didn't use up this power, however, but simply made use of it. Once a nugget of atium was expended, the power would return to the Pits and begin to coalesce again—just as the power at the Well of Ascension would return there again after it had been used.

I get what you're saying, but this is canon. But if you think about it, this isn't steel made by Ruin or Preservation, this is an unnatural metal crafted by one of their powers. There's probably more to it than this, but it is at least partially an explanation. It's possible that they crafted an artificial metal that is designed to have a structure that grants the abilities of atium or lerasium and is fueled by itself.

[Edgedancer he/him]

I think the actually interesting part of this question is how atium is different from for example an Invested metalmind though.  Seeing how storing in the metal doesn't change it's physical structure or anything like that it seems reasonable to assume that it also gets a "spiritual layer" like atium, which in turn would be what interferes with Allomancy.

[Youngy he/him]

Atium itself isn't any more invested than any other metal. The metals for Allomancy act as 'forms' (I think that's the term that is used) rather than investiture. They allow access to the power, but don't contain it (they're like keys). 

In the contrary Feruchemy and Hemalurgy both store investiture in the metals, hence why they are hard to push on.

[Jondesu he/him]

7 hours ago, Windrunner said:

Check out this epigraph though.

I get what you're saying, but this is canon. But if you think about it, this isn't steel made by Ruin or Preservation, this is an unnatural metal crafted by one of their powers. There's probably more to it than this, but it is at least partially an explanation. It's possible that they crafted an artificial metal that is designed to have a structure that grants the abilities of atium or lerasium and is fueled by itself.

That doesn't mean it's actually made of Ruin's Investiture, though.  It's sort of like genetics: Atium's Spiritual DNA marks it as a product of Ruin, despite being otherwise a normal metal, and it's that spiritual genetic marker that causes the magic.  It's fairly well explained in the WoB that Master_Moridin posted above.

9 hours ago, Master_Moridin said:

  Around Feb 16th, 2013, Brandon Sanderson said:

Viper

Hah. So in Cosmere, does physics work the same way in the physical realm as it does in our world? Specifically, particle physics; and are atoms made up of protons and neutrons and electrons, and is light photons, etc?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes.

Viper
So what's at the core of an atom of Atium? Ate-teum? Also how do you pronounce it? At-teum?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes. And the matter is just normal matter, but it's wrapped in the spiritual. The Spiritual DNA [or something] is what makes it magical.

Viper
(Note: he might've said slightly more about this but I didn't write it down and I don't remember. Sorry for not bringing a tape recorder :(/> )
(source)

 

jW

[Windrunner he/him]

4 hours ago, Jondesu said:

That doesn't mean it's actually made of Ruin's Investiture, though.  It's sort of like genetics: Atium's Spiritual DNA marks it as a product of Ruin, despite being otherwise a normal metal, and it's that spiritual genetic marker that causes the magic.  It's fairly well explained in the WoB that Master_Moridin posted above.

jW

I am well aware of that quote  and have been for years. If a Shard creates something, it makes use of its own Investiture, it's own spiritual energy. There's no other explanation I've heard that makes better sense.

[Jondesu he/him]

6 hours ago, Windrunner said:

I am well aware of that quote  and have been for years. If a Shard creates something, it makes use of its own Investiture, it's own spiritual energy. There's no other explanation I've heard that makes better sense.

That's a different thing from being Invested, though.  An Invested object is an otherwise normal object that has had Investiture placed within it by some means.  In Atium's case, though (and all matter on Scadrial), the Investiture was used to form the matter (the Atium itself), but no raw Investiture was then placed into the metal.  In other words, it was made from Investiture (converted to matter), but is not still made of Investiture.  That means it's not what would be considered an Invested object (like Nightblood, for example, where actual Investiture was forced into the otherwise normal sword).

jW

[Windrunner he/him]

2 hours ago, Jondesu said:

That's a different thing from being Invested, though.  An Invested object is an otherwise normal object that has had Investiture placed within it by some means.  In Atium's case, though (and all matter on Scadrial), the Investiture was used to form the matter (the Atium itself), but no raw Investiture was then placed into the metal.  In other words, it was made from Investiture (converted to matter), but is not still made of Investiture.  That means it's not what would be considered an Invested object (like Nightblood, for example, where actual Investiture was forced into the otherwise normal sword).

jW

I do not require a definition of what an Invested object is. I wasn't saying that atium was Invested with his energy, but that it was created from just Ruin's power, and no other. That fact is not up for debate, it is clearly outlined in the quote I referenced above.

[Jondesu he/him]

7 hours ago, Windrunner said:

I do not require a definition of what an Invested object is. I wasn't saying that atium was Invested with his energy, but that it was created from just Ruin's power, and no other. That fact is not up for debate, it is clearly outlined in the quote I referenced above.

I didn't think anyone was debating that fact?

jW

[feldi]

I think much like Jondesu, Atium is made from pure Investiture made into a Physical matter and if you burn it then it'll revert to Investiture and give you awesome power, maybe even turn you to Invested in the case of Lerasium, but it's not like a metalmaind were the Investiture is IN the metal 

[Yata he/him]

12 minutes ago, feldi said:

I think much like Jondesu, Atium is made from pure Investiture made into a Physical matter and if you burn it then it'll revert to Investiture and give you awesome power, maybe even turn you to Invested in the case of Lerasium, but it's not like a metalmaind were the Investiture is IN the metal 

Allomancers aren't more invested than regular Scadrialian when they don't burn metals. This to say that Lerasium doesn't "made you more Invested". When you burn it. It simply active his effect, its effect is "rewrite Spiritweb" and without specific istruction to default it strenghten the guy's Connection to Preservation. As a side effect you become a Mistborn.

[feldi]

5 hours ago, Yata said:

Allomancers aren't more invested than regular Scadrialian when they don't burn metals. This to say that Lerasium doesn't "made you more Invested". When you burn it. It simply active his effect, its effect is "rewrite Spiritweb" and without specific istruction to default it strenghten the guy's Connection to Preservation. As a side effect you become a Mistborn.

ye... I know, just it's harder that it look to try and explain something not in you're language, an Invested person will be like glowing Kaladin and the alike

[Oversleep]

10 hours ago, Yata said:

Allomancers aren't more invested than regular Scadrialian when they don't burn metals. This to say that Lerasium doesn't "made you more Invested". When you burn it. It simply active his effect, its effect is "rewrite Spiritweb" and without specific istruction to default it strenghten the guy's Connection to Preservation. As a side effect you become a Mistborn.

Humans generally are Invested (cause they have Investiture in their souls) and Allomancers have more Preservation's Investiture than the rest of the population.

[Yata he/him]

10 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Humans generally are Invested (cause they have Investiture in their souls) and Allomancers have more Preservation's Investiture than the rest of the population.

We have a WoB (I am trying to find it) who say that Allomancer aren't high Invested while they don't burn metals, but became high Invested when they began to burn metal.

It may seems OT but Lerasium as Atium is a GodMetal and this WoB shows us how the Preservation's Godmetal doesn't contain an high Investiture who is then trasferred to the Human who burn it. But it only provide a way to rewrite Connections (I know that Connections are made by raw Investiture but seems this kind of Investiture may be "spawn" from nothing or provided free from some unknown source, after all Human made new Connection for their whole life)

PS: Feldi don't worry, I know it's hard to explain your though in a foreign language... I have problem with this every time 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Just to add, I believe there were steel lines leading to the Lerasium beads, which would indicate that they could be pulled on.

[Spoolofwhool]

On July 4, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Three1415 said:

As far as I'm aware, none of the Allomantic metals are by themselves invested--e.g., you can burn pewter, but it is not itself invested. As Brandon has said multiple times, both in the books and in WoBs, the metals are a key to access Investiture, not a source of it by themselves; thus, it makes sense for Atium to be a gateway to pure Ruinous Investiture by virtue of having been made from it, rather than being a source of that Investiture on its own (if it was, one couldn't burn it properly anyway).

Atium isn't a gateway, it's direct power in physical form. I agree with Jondesu theory. Technically, all metals are physical representations of a mix of Ruin's and Preservation's power, but in a far lower concentration. Atium, is the condensed form of a lot of power, so when it's burned, it releases a tangible effect. Other metals don't have anywhere close to enough power for that, so they just act as a gateway to Preservation's power instead. 

That being said, although Atium is in a greater Power-to-Mass ratio than normal metals, it doesn't actually contain raw investiture so it can be affected by steel/iron allomancy or easily used to form Atium metalminds or spikes.

[Three1415]

As far as I'm aware, none of the Allomantic metals are by themselves invested--e.g., you can burn pewter, but it is not itself invested. As Brandon has said multiple times, both in the books and in WoBs, the metals are a key to access Investiture, not a source of it by themselves; thus, it makes sense for Atium to be a gateway to pure Ruinous Investiture by virtue of having been made from it, rather than being a source of that Investiture on its own (if it was, one couldn't burn it properly anyway).