Is Wax a Sliver ?

[Yata he/him]

Wax used the Bands of Mourning tapping amazing amount of Investiture from its reserves, at the point he began to see the true structure of the Cosmere.

We know that someone become a Sliver after keep an huge amount of power, the power expands his soul and when the power was there no more, it leave some residual.

We know also that a Lerasium Mistborn is near of the amount of power needed to become a Sliver (from a WoB).

Quote

Also, would the Elantrians and the Lerasium-mistings be considered Slivers? Or is just the Lord Ruler and Vin Slivers (Via the Well)? Or do you need more power to be considered a Sliver?

BRANDON SANDERSON (GOODREADS)

Elantrians are not slivers. Mistborn trilogy spoiler warnings follow! The Lord Ruler was indeed a Sliver. So was Vin. For the rest, I would say probably not.

What defines an actual Sliver of Adonalsium is not as clear-cut as you might think. It's a term that in-universe people who study this have applied to various existences and states. Every single person on the world of Scadrial has a bit of Leras in them—a bit of the power of Preservation. Every single person has a bit of Ati in them. There's a certain threshold where these scholars would call you a Sliver of Adonalsium. But I would say that any regular Misting is probably not a Sliver. A full Lerasium Mistborn is getting closer, but people who have held one of the powers are what would probably be termed a Sliver by the definitions. If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go. From then on they referred to that change in him—the residue, what was left—as a Sliver. When he held it he became the Shard for a short time, and Vin was a Shard for a short time. After Vin gave up the power, what Kelsier is at the end of the trilogy—that's a Sliver of Adonalsium

Therefore, may Wax and Marasi have becomed Slivers ? Any idea ?

Edited June 26, 2016 by Yata

[Oversleep]

Hm. They both have hit mistpoint and I theoretized that above mistpoint you vaporize (like Vin when she Ascended) and die (like Vin did not). The thing is, the Slivers are people who have held at least part of the Shard, so by my definition mistpoint is the limit between human and Ascension.

Like Brandon says, it's not as clear-cut as we may think. So I guess that they were around the lower threshold of being a Sliver. They are something, but a little less than what we could call a Sliver.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Oversleep

[Yata he/him]

I think that the "SliverPoint" is very under the level of Investiture needed to Ascend and when someone Ascends he/She surely become a Sliver. The part about Lerasium Mistborn as near to the Investiture needed to the SliveriPoint made me think that Wax and Marasi (probably more Wax) may have reached the Sliverpoint, but to be honest I can't say if just Preservation's Sliver or both Ruin's Sliver.

To be honest I think that also others beings have reached the Sliver's Status in the Cosmere and be able of see the true structure of the Matter-Energy-Investiture is some clue.

Warbreaker Spoiler

Spoiler

For example I really think that the God Kings became Endowment's Sliver while they held the Breath's Treasure.

But my interpretation of the rules about the Slivers may be wrong

Edited June 26, 2016 by Yata

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

All Returned are Splinters of Endowment, so you may want to add that to your theory.

[Yata he/him]

ok after a long night of Sleep I solved the problem I made and Wax and Marari can't be Sliver at the end of the book. Of course I will explain the reason but there are spoiler from Stormlight and Warbreaker:

Spoiler

First of all we have a WoB about the Band can't be called "Shardblade" because it isn't Invested enough. Therefore the problem becomes "is it a shardblade's level of Investiture enough to become a Sliver", because the weakest shardblade is still an upperbound to Band's power.

We have until now three type of Shardblade: Sprenblade (living or dead), Honorblade and Nightblood... The weakest kind is Sprenblade and then Nightblood or Honorblade (we don't know what is stronger... but to us is meaningless).

We have to estimate a Sprenblade's power but it's really hard because we have no units of measure... ops we may use Nightblood as sample (but remember that Nightblood is far over the Sprenblade and the Sprenblade is still more Invested than the Band) with his 1000 Breath. Yes a great amount of words to say simply that Band's power is less than 1000 Breath and probably is very below.

Now, 1000 Breath is the threeshold to reach the forth Heightening and we know there is a lot of people on Nalthis who reached it, the Returneds with their Divine Breath alone have 5000 Breath.
Therefore or everyone beyond (also for some time) to the Forth Heightening become a Sliver (and I stop the argument on Nalthis because we have also to talk about Radiant and other being) or Wax and Marasi aren't Slivers.

It's more probably like Oversleep said and the SliverPoint need a lot of more Investiture. But maybe the GodKings are reached this point...Of course if this is true Susebron and Vasher are Endowment's Splinters.

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Yata

[Jondesu he/him]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

ok after a long night of Sleep I solved the problem I made and Wax and Marari can't be Sliver at the end of the book. Of course I will explain the reason but there are spoiler from Stormlight and Warbreaker:

  Hide contents

First of all we have a WoB about the Band can't be called "Shardblade" because it isn't Invested enough. Therefore the problem becomes "is it a shardblade's level of Investiture enough to become a Sliver", because the weakest shardblade is still an upperbound to Band's power.

We have until now three type of Shardblade: Sprenblade (living or dead), Honorblade and Nightblood... The weakest kind is Sprenblade and then Nightblood or Honorblade (we don't know what is stronger... but to us is meaningless).

We have to estimate a Sprenblade's power but it's really hard because we have no units of measure... ops we may use Nightblood as sample (but remember that Nightblood is far over the Sprenblade and the Sprenblade is still more Invested than the Band) with his 1000 Breath. Yes a great amount of words to say simply that Band's power is less than 1000 Breath and probably is very below.

Now, 1000 Breath is the threeshold to reach the forth Heightening and we know there is a lot of people on Nalthis who reached it, the Returneds with their Divine Breath alone have 5000 Breath.
Therefore or everyone beyond (also for some time) to the Forth Heightening become a Sliver (and I stop the argument on Nalthis because we have also to talk about Radiant and other being) or Wax and Marasi aren't Slivers.

It's more probably like Oversleep said and the SliverPoint need a lot of more Investiture. But maybe the GodKings are reached this point...Of course if this is true Susebron and Vasher are Endowment's Splinters.

 

There's some good reasoning there, but I think Brandon's statement about it not being cut and dry means that there isn't a set "amount" of Investiture to become a Sliver.  It's less about that and more about how deeply Connected you become to the Shard, I would expect.  That doesn't mean Wax and Marasi became Slivers, since I doubt that, but it does mean we can't just use math like that to figure it out necessarily.

jW

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Shardblades are Splinters. Nightwatcher and Stormfather are particularly large ones. So are Seona, Skaze and Returned. The Bands were close to being a Splinter, but didn't quite make it (that was how I recall it anyway.) Splinters are fragments of Investiture that have gained sentience of a kind. Sometimes a Splinter can become a Sliver but it does not seem to be common. [spoiler\] The Stormfather is the Cognitive Shadow of Honor and is thus a Sliver as well as a Splinter. [/spoiler]

Edited June 27, 2016 by Kingsdaughter613

[Jondesu he/him]

Kingsdaughter613, don't put a slash at all in the first spoiler tag (the last one is right). :-)

You're exactly right on splitting that difference too. Slivers are a completely different thing to Splinters, and not just a matter of one being more or less Invested.

jW

[Oversleep]

10 hours ago, Yata said:

ok after a long night of Sleep I solved the problem I made and Wax and Marari can't be Sliver at the end of the book. Of course I will explain the reason but there are spoiler from Stormlight and Warbreaker:

  Hide contents

First of all we have a WoB about the Band can't be called "Shardblade" because it isn't Invested enough. Therefore the problem becomes "is it a shardblade's level of Investiture enough to become a Sliver", because the weakest shardblade is still an upperbound to Band's power.

We have until now three type of Shardblade: Sprenblade (living or dead), Honorblade and Nightblood... The weakest kind is Sprenblade and then Nightblood or Honorblade (we don't know what is stronger... but to us is meaningless).

We have to estimate a Sprenblade's power but it's really hard because we have no units of measure... ops we may use Nightblood as sample (but remember that Nightblood is far over the Sprenblade and the Sprenblade is still more Invested than the Band) with his 1000 Breath. Yes a great amount of words to say simply that Band's power is less than 1000 Breath and probably is very below.

Now, 1000 Breath is the threeshold to reach the forth Heightening and we know there is a lot of people on Nalthis who reached it, the Returneds with their Divine Breath alone have 5000 Breath.
Therefore or everyone beyond (also for some time) to the Forth Heightening become a Sliver (and I stop the argument on Nalthis because we have also to talk about Radiant and other being) or Wax and Marasi aren't Slivers.

It's more probably like Oversleep said and the SliverPoint need a lot of more Investiture. But maybe the GodKings are reached this point...Of course if this is true Susebron and Vasher are Endowment's Splinters.

 

You make good points there, but I think you're not completely right. BTW, the Law of Comparability: The amount of Breath required to Awaken something isn't necessarily indicative of its power once Awakened. So maybe those 1000 Breaths doesn't mean as much as we think they mean.

Anyway, we know that Spearhead is less Invested than a Shardblade... but that's not what the thing is about! It's about the absurd amounts of nicrosil charges which in turn allow channelling much, much more power than it's thought possible. Normally some amount of Investiture flows through Allomancers, more when flaring, more when savantism is there, but tapping Spearhead's nicrosilminds allows for forcefully opening the channel so widely that it becomes very close to burning the mists. And burning the mists destroys human entities (per WoB it didn't kill Vin because she was transformed into something else - she Ascended).

[Jondesu he/him]

4 hours ago, Oversleep said:

You make good points there, but I think you're not completely right. BTW, the Law of Comparability: The amount of Breath required to Awaken something isn't necessarily indicative of its power once Awakened. So maybe those 1000 Breaths doesn't mean as much as we think they mean.

Anyway, we know that Spearhead is less Invested than a Shardblade... but that's not what the thing is about! It's about the absurd amounts of nicrosil charges which in turn allow channelling much, much more power than it's thought possible. Normally some amount of Investiture flows through Allomancers, more when flaring, more when savantism is there, but tapping Spearhead's nicrosilminds allows for forcefully opening the channel so widely that it becomes very close to burning the mists. And burning the mists destroys human entities (per WoB it didn't kill Vin because she was transformed into something else - she Ascended).

Yeah, no human being could use more of Preservation's power via Allomancy without being destroyed.  I think we're missing a piece of the puzzle for Sliverhood, though, and that it's not merely a matter of reaching Mistpoint, for example.

jW

[happyman he/him]

Can I just say here how much I like the term Mistpoint for the kind of absurd power people held when using the Bands?

As for being a Sliver...I don't know.  Despite what Brandon said, I feel like there's something qualitatively different about somebody who's become a Sliver.  An echo of (secret history spoiler)

Spoiler

what we saw with Leras in the cognitive realm.  He was divine, and somehow that made a difference.

I don't know what it is, but there's something there which just changes a person.  I don't think either Wax or Marasi had enough of "that," whatever it is.

[Jazzy Kandra she/her]

If anything, both Marasi and Wax became Splinters of Harmony when they used the power held in the Spear. That is, Sovereign's Spear almost has the same amount of power as a spren-Shardblade from Roshar, or a "strong" Splinter of Honor/Cultivation. While it isn't quite a shardblade, it's so close that I think we can recognize both as Splinters despite that spren-shardblades are technically stronger.

Spoiler

When someone holds the Spear, they briefly hold that Splinter, and similar way to what happened to Kaladin when he fought Szeth the second time after his third oath. His eyes grew and he grew with power. While their eyes didn't glow, leaking mist (or Investiture) is a sign of power. It's also a sign, I guess, that they're not perfect vessels for the Spear's power, so they're literally losing some of the mists that Sovereign pact into the case even as they use it. As raw mists can be used to power Allomancy, Feruchemy, and probably Hemalurgy (safe H, just spike Sazed), and Feruchemy is symbolically Harmony, and while the Spear holds Allomantic powers, it could not even work if it was not for Feruchemy--that is, if it weren't a splinter of harmony.

That's why I call them Splinters (not Slivers) of Harmony. A Sliver, I think, has to hold a lot more of a Shard than what either Wax or Marasi held when they took up the spear. That doesn't mean that aren't Slivers of that particular Splinter (the Spear, in this case), and thereby changed by holding it and letting it go (by that definition). Also, sure, they could feel like they held a Shard for a moment, but I doubt the Spear held enough power to get them up to Shardic levels or anywhere close to recreating the world like the Lord Rule did when he took up [part] of Preservation. The Spear's powerful, but not that powerful. I find the idea that the Spear is a Splinter of Harmony (or close enough) much more interesting, because it kind of tells us what Fullborn might be too, or powerful ones, at least...

Quote

Can I just say here how much I like the term Mistpoint for the kind of absurd power people held when using the Bands?

As for being a Sliver...I don't know.  Despite what Brandon said, I feel like there's something qualitatively different about somebody who's become a Sliver.  An echo of (secret history spoiler)

Spoiler

what we saw with Leras in the cognitive realm.  He was divine, and somehow that made a difference.

I don't know what it is, but there's something there which just changes a person.  I don't think either Wax or Marasi had enough of "that," whatever it is.

Their souls are said to be "deflated"; so I'm guessing there is some kind of difference, because a "deflated soul" just seems like purposefully vague terminology because telling us what that means, exactly, would be spoiling important things we're not supposed to know yet. Holding Preservation and letting it go must change someone; even if it just means that they're more Connected to the Shard than before, can hold onto the Cognitive Realm no matter what, has more knowledge in general about that particular Shard's Investitures, knowledge about the future (if one holds Preservation, a person should recieve at least a little information on what is to come), or changes certain parts of the Soul, warping the SDNA in certain ways that we do not, as of yet, understand. I think it does, however, leave a person's Soul permanently warped and changed; other wise, it just wouldn't make sense.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Kandra-in-disguise

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

You could say that a Sliver is someone who has held and/or used enough of a Shard's power to fill a Shardpool/Perpendicularity (as IIRC, the liquid form of Investiture is the most potent, I may have to track down this WoB) although the problem with that statement is that the size of Preservation's Shardpool is different to that of (presumably) Devotions (although that may just be due to the shape of each pool's container, + other variables

[Yata he/him]

9 hours ago, Oversleep said:

You make good points there, but I think you're not completely right. BTW, the Law of Comparability: The amount of Breath required to Awaken something isn't necessarily indicative of its power once Awakened. So maybe those 1000 Breaths doesn't mean as much as we think they mean.

I understand what you want to say but I think The Law of Comparability mean just that every Awakening doesn't have the same Breath's Efficiency.

In my explaination I took Nightblood as a 100% Breath's efficiency (it's a weak Hypotesis but I needed a fixed amount of Investiture to use as sure overbound to Band's Investiture). But to me it was a meaningless add, because if I use an extremely uncomparabe set of object and command, of course the Awakened object would me less powerful but it will have still the fixed amount of Investiture who took for me. In the "how much is Invested ?" the Awakening efficiency would be meaningles.

Anyway like I said I overstimated Nightblood's Investiture to have a sure reference and I didn't take the less Invested Shardblade always to have a sure reference. The 1000 Breath is an upperlimit to the Band's power overstimated twice. But for the sake of number I preferred to work in this way. If you have a better Idea I would be happy to restart the whole problem and find an alternate solution 

[Magestar he/him]

Personally, I see the number of breaths used for awakening as the number needed for Endowment to turn her head and make something happen.  That is why some awakening commands take more breath even though they awaken the same thing.  It also explains why Nightbloods stupendous overpoweredness is caused by 1000 breaths, sort of, and why the Bands slightly more quantifiable power (Actively ripping up chunks of earth and moving so fast you leave a vacuum behind you.)  is still not as "Powerful" as other things.  

Another thing is purpose.  Shardblades do one thing.  They shear the cognitive from the physical.  That seems simple, but takes a heck of a lot of power to do.  The Bands have more usability, but are statistically 'less powerful'.  Personally, I would rather have the Bands, even though they are 'less powerful'.  Shearing someones soul from there body is cool and all, but if I can just rip them apart with a flick of my wrist, it becomes a little obsolete.