Spren's Parents?

[Sam Script]

Here's my conclusion of two SA so far, and I'm not sure this speculation has been confirmed or common-known, so just have a look:

In WoR, we could see that Wyndle, Lift's Nahel spren, called Nightwatcher as "mother", as well as Stormfather indicated Syl as his "daughter". This is the first clue.

Secondly, we can be sure that except for the Voidsprens, all Roshar spren are of Honor or/and Cultivation.

Thirdly, we know that Stormfather is the cognitive projection of Almighty, referring to as Honor; while Nightwatcher is deeply involved with Culti.

So they are the symbol spren of the two Shards.

So, can we say that SF and NW are at the position of parents of all spren species?

Looking forward to any new suggestions:))

[AliasSheep]

I think they consider themselves the... guiding figures? At the very least the guardians and teachers of all the spren, enough so to consider themselves their “parents”.

[Yata]

I too think that the use of "father or mother" is more about guide and less about parentship.... After all the Stormfather is pretty an unique being born from a series of unique circumstance. The Nightwatcher whatever is, is probably not the Cultivation analogue of the Stormfather.

 

PS: Many Spren on Roshar predate the H&C arrive on the planet and they are made of Adonalsium's Investiture

[Sam Script]

I too think that the use of "father or mother" is more about guide and less about parentship.... After all the Stormfather is pretty an unique being born from a series of unique circumstance. The Nightwatcher whatever is, is probably not the Cultivation analogue of the Stormfather.

PS: Many Spren on Roshar predate the H&C arrive on the planet and they are made of Adonalsium's Investiture

I should have described more clearly. What I mean is exactly the guide figure rather than Bioparents. After all spren are not made out from biological reproducting processes.

Also thanks for reminding, but I believe many perspectives had changed after Shards arrived Roshar. Maybe the old spren also agreed SF & NW to be their guide figure.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Sam Script

[Yata]

As far as we know the Rider of the Storm (the Spren who became Stormfather) and the Nightwatcher may be Adonalsium's Spren. Not H&C's Splinters ... We know too little of both of them, but probably the 3rd book will give us a lot of aswers ;-)

[Jondesu]

Secondly, we can be sure that except for the Voidsprens, all Roshar spren are of Honor or/and Cultivation.

Actually, we know that not to be true. There were spren before Honor and Cultivation arrived on Roshar, per WoB, and Odium arrived later. Some, if not most, of the spren are spren of Adolnasium, or perhaps not from a Shard at all, but just part of Roshar's natural magic.

jW

[Sam Script]

I said they are OF Honor and Cultivation, didn't mean they are FROM them.

What I wanna get sure about is whether SF & NW represent Shards and manage the whole sprenity.

Besides, I consider the Adonalsium spren of Roshar to be rare. Most species are developed from the shard(power) of the Shards(deities).

[Jondesu]

I said they are OF Honor and Cultivation, didn't mean they are FROM them.

What I wanna get sure about is whether SF & NW represent Shards and manage the whole sprenity.

Besides, I consider the Adonalsium spren of Roshar to be rare. Most species are developed from the shard(power) of the Shards(deities).

I'd disagree with you on that fact though: my opinion is that most of the "natural" spren are from Adolnasium, and only the Radiant spren and maybe a few others are from/of Honor or Cultivation, and those natural spren have little to do with the Shards. That's not backed up by anything specific yet in the text, so we'll just have to accept those as different theories, and naturally other theories like this will arise from different places.

I like your reasoning, if I agreed with the original assumptions. :-)

jW

[Yata]

There is something that just comes to my mind reading your last post Jondesu.

 

With Honor's Splintered and Cultivation pretty whole. We will have a great unbalance between Honor's Spren (not Syl like, I mean "Spren borned by Honor's Power) and Cultivation's Sprean.

Of course this may not be reflected in the number of Radiant of each Orders because not every Spren will leave Shadesmar... But the whole Cognitive Realm will be full of Honor's Spren Comunities.

[Sam Script]

my opinion is that most of the "natural" spren are from Adolnasium, and only the Radiant spren and maybe a few others are from/of Honor or Cultivation, and those natural spren have little to do with the Shards.

jW

That's quite a new theory, respectable.

The deduction Jasnah mentioned in WoR might not be reasoned to the conclusion that Emotionsprens are of Honor and vice versa.

Really interesting new notion:)

Well there's no denying that we don't have enough clue on this topic yet...

[Sam Script]

There is something that just comes to my mind reading your last post Jondesu.

With Honor's Splintered and Cultivation pretty whole... the whole Cognitive Realm will be full of Honor's Spren Communities.

Yata, yet we cannot be sure about the belong of the sprenity. It's hard to even have a clear guess the state of Shadesmar now.

We could be sure that:

*Some sprens have communities, even factors, civilization etc. Like Honorspren, Cryptic, even Wyndle's species.

*Not all the sprens are sapiens. According to Jasnah's description.

*Some sprens are gradually returning to Physical Roshar, like Pattern(sent by his tribe), Syl(betray Stormfather), Wyndle(sent as well).

This is, however, not an evidence about the amount of different sprenity.

*We so far have no confirmation on ANY spren's belong --- to Honor, Culti, Odium, or Adonalsium. Even if Syl calls herself Honorspren.

*Stormfather referred to Syl as his "daughter", while Wyndle indicated Nightwatcher to be "mother".

*Stormfather is something like the Cognitive projections of The Almighty.

*Nightwatcher has a lot to deal with Cultivation, more than any other known character.

That's all I can put together for now.

Btw, any idea for Cusicesh? (more H or C?)

[Yata]

In my mind Rider of the Storm, Nightwatcher and Cusicesh are the only three Sapient Adonlasium's Spren and they were the three Bondsmith's Spren.... But this idea has some problems.

 

Anyway again Honor is Splintered while the other two Shards no. Therefore Honor has a ton of Splinters more than O&C...Remember with every Splinter a Shard became a little weaker.

[TwelfthOfSnackTime]

There were spen forming the Nahel bond prior to Honors demise. The original Surgebinders came about of the spren copying Honors work with the Honorblades. This tells me that the majority of spren are born of Andolisium and not Honors splintering.

 

In my mind it takes a long time for unguided power to form its own sentience, longer than Honor has been splintered. I don't have anything that points to this conclusion though, its just a theory.

[Sam Script]

Anyway again Honor is Splintered while the other two Shards no. Therefore Honor has a ton of Splinters more than O&C...Remember with every Splinter a Shard became a little weaker.

Not exactly. I don't think the splinters of Honor was made from his death. Splinters could be produced even when the Shard is still alive. Endowment for example.

Surgebinding had existed before Death of Honor. So did Nahel Sprens, which are seemingly from Honor, or they're OF Honor, or of H+C.

It makes no sense that Nahel sprens appeared after Honor's Death. They should've been created long before the event.

Sprens kept mentioning that Honor lives in Mankind's heart and themselves. Their words are not metaphors but somewhat truth.

I believe, despite maybe wrong, the splintering of Honor lead up to some different consequences but spren.

[Yata]

Sure man, but before Honor's Death a part of his power made Spren (like Cultivation) but after his death his whole power was Splintered... It's some magnitude greater of "create some Splinters"

[Sam Script]

There were spen forming the Nahel bond prior to Honors demise. The original Surgebinders came about of the spren copying Honors work with the Honorblades. This tells me that the majority of spren are born of Andolisium and not Honors splintering.

In my mind it takes a long time for unguided power to form its own sentience, longer than Honor has been splintered. I don't have anything that points to this conclusion though, its just a theory.

Actually, sprens could be splinters of Honor and try to copy the bond between Heralds and Blades. They needn't be directly from Adonalsium. There is no conflict btwn two aspects.

Remind that Syl stated that Honor still lives in her and in Mankind's heart. This is unlikely just something encouraging, but a hint on our topic.

[Sam Script]

It's some magnitude greater of "create some Splinters"

Maybe? However the bursting increase of sprenity should've caused some history or phenomenon on Roshar. But we don't have any clue about it. At least I believe this would have an effect on Physical Roshar. And recorded by ppl.

However, it's very reasonable of your perspective. We just need more evidence.

What if Honor were just killed, not splintered?

Edited June 13, 2016 by Sam Script

[natc]

Then everything we know has been a lie?

The spren population has been acknowledged to have increased noticeably since the old days. And other than the appearance of seons and skaze nobody on Sel even remotely expressed any historical knowledge of the death of two shards whatsoever. The spren don't even gain physical like seons do outside of nahel bonds, so I'm not sure how Roshar would even know.

[Ecthelion III]

Does anything happen to Splinters when their parent Shard dies? (that we know of)

[Sam Script]

19 hours ago, natc said:

Then everything we know has been a lie?

The spren population has been acknowledged to have increased noticeably since the old days.

I just wondered whether Honor was splintered or just killed. There's a lot of difference btwn them.

Which paragraph or WoB have ever mentioned the growing pop of spren? Quote please

Quote

Does anything happen to Splinters when their parent Shard dies? (that we know of)

We just know Dominion and Devotion passively created Skaze and Seon.

But splinters needn't be produced by a Shard's death, as we know Endowment is still alive while BioChromatic Breaths are her splinters.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Windrunner
Please don't double post, simply edit your old post.

[Yata]

Actually we don't know if Seon and Skaze were born before D&D's death or after.

Anyway about the Splintering of Honor, we are pretty sure:

- Rayse will never kill a Vessel without Spinter the Shard... It's quite useless to him

- If the Shard was whole, probably Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow would turn back and pick Honor again... It would not be so powerful as before but well better than nothing

- Someone else in the century will pick up the Shard if Tanavast can't.... or Tanavast himself may search a replacement.

- We know the Sapient Spren's popolation growed a lot... and this is probably the result of Honor's Splintering (or Cultivation decides to suicide)

And of course we have a WoB  (I wrote the post before searching on the forum a direct WoB)

Quote

ANDREA DIGNEY

Was Honor Splintered?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Was Honor Splintered? ooh someone's been paying attention, very much. I would say that yes Honor was Splintered. That is a very important question to be asking, someone really knows their stuff.

 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Yata

[Ecthelion III]

D&D is Dominion and Devotion right?

[Yata]

20 minutes ago, Ecthelion III said:

D&D is Dominion and Devotion right?

Yes, Sorry I began to call them in that way to avoid the whole names (and because I am a Dungeons & Dragons player XD)

[WeiryWriter]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

Actually we don't know if Seon and Skaze were born before D&D's death or after.

Actually yes we do.  There's a WoB that says that when Odium visited Sel (in order to kill Devotion and Dominion) there were no seons.

[Rich2244]

Could someone tell me why we think Nightwatcher is of Cultivation OR aligned with cultivation, I don't remember reading anywhere that they were affiliated. Or is this just an assumption the community has made?

Edited June 15, 2016 by Rich2244