Lightweavers are the most powerful Radiant(WoR Spoilers)

[KnightGradient]

Every order of the Knights Radiant has to be bound by oaths, right? In order to gain more power, they have to follow their orders' rules. Except the Lightweavers. The only oath they have to swear is the generic, albeit awesome "Life before Death" mantra.

 

Basically, this gives the Lightweavers more power and freedom than any other Radiant, because they can choose whatever they want to do, so long as it fits the First Ideal. This is why Shallan has such a common and nasty habit of killing people in cold blood. Because she doesn't have to worry about 'remembering the forgotten' or some really cool thing. All she has to do is admit to her homicidal tendicies, and bingbangboom she gets a Shardblade.

 

So I ask, why the disparity? Ishar forced the spren to bind themselves only to honorable individuals, but left out the one's nicknamed 'Liespren'. Why?

[maxal]

Every order of the Knights Radiant has to be bound by oaths, right? In order to gain more power, they have to follow their orders' rules. Except the Lightweavers. The only oath they have to swear is the generic, albeit awesome "Life before Death" mantra.

 

Basically, this gives the Lightweavers more power and freedom than any other Radiant, because they can choose whatever they want to do, so long as it fits the First Ideal. This is why Shallan has such a common and nasty habit of killing people in cold blood. Because she doesn't have to worry about 'remembering the forgotten' or some really cool thing. All she has to do is admit to her homicidal tendicies, and bingbangboom she gets a Shardblade.

 

So I ask, why the disparity? Ishar forced the spren to bind themselves only to honorable individuals, but left out the one's nicknamed 'Liespren'. Why?

 

Because not all orders are about Honor, some are about "other aspects of human nature". The Lightweavers are about integrity and knowing oneself: they can progress as long as they stay true to themselves, as long as they acknowledged every single dark corner of their soul. There is no hiding when you are a Lightweaver: they may be able to kill, but they can't hide their inaction between Honor's mantra. They can't say: "I didn't do anything because it would have went against the codes". If actions if what their soul demands, then they have to act, sucked it up and own it. 

 

I say being a Lightweaver is hard business  It strikes to me as easier to follow a single path towards honor: Do This. Do not Do That. Do Not Ask Questions. Just Be Honorable. It is straight-forward. Lightweavers have to know the right path for themselves which is harder, IMHO, than simply following a code or rules.

[Pagerunner]

You could make the argument that a spoken oath gives you less wiggle room. It's not about mentality, it's about action, so it doesn't matter what you think or feel, as long as you follow the oaths you've spoken. Breaking the oaths means you're not following the path of your order, so it's very clear what will get you expelled.

 

So, what is the path of Lightweavers? They need to reveal secrets; maybe that indicates that Lightweavers reveal the truth. (It's been a while since I last read WoR, so forgive me if it's been spelled out more explicitly.) Without a clear boundary of what to do, it might be easier for Shallan to slip into non-Lightweaver-appropriate actions, as she keeps secrets and hides the truth.

 

So, lack of an oath doesn't mean that Lightweavers don't have an imperative to act a certain way. Just that their path isn't revealed in four distinct Oaths.

[Pathfinder]

Also I would like to point out every single death at Shallan's hand was in self defense or defense of another. Also arguably her body count is far less than Kaladin's as he was actually in border skirmishes for an extended period of time back at home as well as when he reaches the shattered plains with the parshendi. Only difference is most of the kills Kaladin did was off screen/during battle. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by Pathfinder

[kenod]

Also, before the orders where formed there were a lot of rogue Surgebinders, Nohadon even says that he wishes all the spren where as picky as Honor Spren implying that a lot of spren didn't really care if the person they bonded was a mass murder or a tyrant. It also ins't that this ended because the Orders were formed. It is stated that the Heralds (can't remember the name) forced structure and laws upon them, meaning that it is perhaps wasn't the Oaths that kept them in line, but the law and the fact that the Heralds would slaugther them if they didn't obey.

[Shadow Guardian]

It is worth noting, Lightweavers don't speak "oaths", they speak "truths", about themselves primarily (afaik). All of Shallan's truths were exactly that, not oaths or anything binding, it was "I'm afraid", "I killed my father", "I killed my mother". As Maxal pointed out, it's far more about staying true to themselves as contrary to affixing themselves to a code or structure beyond that of the first ideal.

 

Certainly Windrunners have a pretty narrow line to walk comparatively, but we know that different orders are more open to different things that they would not be (ie. at least one or more of the orders would have approved of Adolin's actions at the end of WoR). Even the Windrunners, I would argue have some flexibility, depending on the individual, because "what is right" is a subjective matter, and one person's sense of honor may vary from someone else's, and if they truly believe and "know" that their actions are honorable, I think their spren is likely to agree.

 

Again, there's a spectrum here, and while Lightweavers may have the widest spectrum of flexibility that we currently know of, I don't think we know enough about the other orders and to say that they are "the most powerful" by any stretch. Each order simply has a certain core beliefs that they prioritize, and for the Lightweavers, that's being true to themselves, which to varying degrees, I think applies to all of them, just not at the same "priority level" as it would be.

[teknopathetic]

Lightweavers seem to be more intune with Cultivation. They speak one oath and then self cultivate truths about themselves. Even the lightweaver's mnemonic abilities resemble cultivation. Shallon keeps the images of others and can reproduce them herself. We dont know if all the surges are of Honour, but Lightweavers seem to lean far closer to Cultuvation. 

[maxal]

Lightweavers seem to be more intune with Cultivation. They speak one oath and then self cultivate truths about themselves. Even the lightweaver's mnemonic abilities resemble cultivation. Shallon keeps the images of others and can reproduce them herself. We dont know if all the surges are of Honour, but Lightweavers seem to lean far closer to Cultuvation. 

 

If how the sprens view themselves is a testimony as to how close to Honor/Cultivation a given order are, then the closest to Cultivation are the Edgedancers. We have a WoB explaining how Edgedancers-sprens are as much Cultivationspren as Syl is a honorspren. Syl has the most honor, but Wyndle has the more Cultivaion. Pattern would probably have a higher percentage of honor.

 

Strange.

[Argel]

This is why Shallan has such a common and nasty habit of killing people in cold blood.

 

You must be reading a different SA than I am, because other than possibly her father, she kills defending herself or others. There are also not enough deaths to count as a "nasty habit". You should consider reading Shallan's scenes.

[zmunkz]

All she has to do is admit to her homicidal tendicies, and bingbangboom she gets a Shardblade.

 

I agree with others on the rest of your quote, but one comment on this bit. Shallon actually had her Shardblade BEFORE she bonded with pattern and started weaving.  WoK ch45 "Shadesmar" / pp643:

 

 

No, that was stupid. She didn't know how to use it. She was helpless.

Except...

Storms! she thought, frantic. I can't use that. I promised myself.

She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act.

 

This is well before she says any words. (I think)

Edited June 12, 2016 by zmunkz

[Bill Smith]

Hey, I'm sorry to disagree with you here, but I was under the impression that we haven't seen a single chapter with Shallan where she wasn't already bonded to pattern, and a level 3 radiant, including her earliest flashback chapter. The only shardblade she's ever been bonded to is her living spren, pattern. It's the reason her mother tried to kill her, the reason Hoid noticed her in the flashback chapter, and the reason she can take memories even at the start of WOK. Now, I may be wrong about this, but that is my understanding of the situation. I think that after killing her mother, she did try to deny that pattern even existed, which kind of caused her to regress in her abilities for a long time, but she's had the bond since we'll before the start of the series.

[zmunkz]

Hey, I'm sorry to disagree with you here, but I was under the impression that we haven't seen a single chapter with Shallan where she wasn't already bonded to pattern, and a level 3 radiant, including her earliest flashback chapter. The only shardblade she's ever been bonded to is her living spren, pattern. It's the reason her mother tried to kill her, the reason Hoid noticed her in the flashback chapter, and the reason she can take memories even at the start of WOK. Now, I may be wrong about this, but that is my understanding of the situation. I think that after killing her mother, she did try to deny that pattern even existed, which kind of caused her to regress in her abilities for a long time, but she's had the bond since we'll before the start of the series.

 

Hmm, yeah I guess you are right, I forgot about some of that. Did she say any words that would start to bind her to the rules of the radiants? Seems like she had the blade despite making no real commitment?

[Bill Smith]

Hmm, yeah I guess you are right, I forgot about some of that. Did she say any words that would start to bind her to the rules of the radiants? Seems like she had the blade despite making no real commitment?

Well, I don't think there's any proof that she's gone past the first truth about herself at the end of WOK since lightweavers advance in a different way to the other orders. I suppose it's also possible that each order, or even each individual gets to use their spren as a shardblade at a different time, or even just when they can't survive a situation without it. I'm guessing that usually, the shardblade manifests at level 3 based only on Kaladin's progression, but it's possible that only windrunners or certain orders get the blade at the third ideal. My best guess is that she had to have spoken at least one, and possibly as many as two truths in addition to the first ideal to get pattern to turn into a shardblade, but we don't have enough information on lightweavers to be completely sure.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Bill Smith

[happyman]

Well, I don't think there's any proof that she's gone past the first truth about herself at the end of WOK since lightweavers advance in a different way to the other orders. I suppose it's also possible that each order, or even each individual gets to use their spren as a shardblade at a different time, or even just when they can't survive a situation without it. I'm guessing that usually, the shardblade manifests at level 3 based only on Kaladin's progression, but it's possible that only windrunners or certain orders get the blade at the third ideal. My best guess is that she had to have spoken at least one, and possibly as many as two truths in addition to the first ideal to get pattern to turn into a shardblade, but we don't have enough information on lightweavers to be completely sure.

 

There's WOB.  She's actually further along in her oaths (truths in her case) than Kaladin is, and she had been there already before she began "breaking her truths" by hiding her memories of killing her mother from herself.

[Bill Smith]

There's WOB. She's actually further along in her oaths (truths in her case) than Kaladin is, and she had been there already before she began "breaking her truths" by hiding her memories of killing her mother from herself.

Yeah, I'm reasonably sure that she's at level 4 by the end of WOK, but I wasn't completely certain since I don't know if the blade is a third ideal/truth ability for every order or if it'd just be that way for certain orders. I do think that all of the evidence that we currently have seems to point that way, though.

[maxal]

Yeah, I'm reasonably sure that she's at level 4 by the end of WOK, but I wasn't completely certain since I don't know if the blade is a third ideal/truth ability for every order or if it'd just be that way for certain orders. I do think that all of the evidence that we currently have seems to point that way, though.

 

We have several WoB on those specific subjects.

 

Shallan indeed is a 4th level Radiant. The truths she has spoken are the following: I am afraid, I killed my father and I killed my mother.

 

While the acquisition of a Blade tend to coincide with the 3th ideal for most orders, it isn't a firm rule. Therefore, having a Radiant with a Blade does not mean this person is at least a level 3. The Lightweavers appear to be one of those orders who gives access to a Blade early on.

[Eki]

Does that mean she was afraid before her mother died, did she summon her blade at 'level one', or did she say the truth as her mother was trying to kill her?

Also, I wonder what her last truth will be... Maybe the last truth is different, requiring the Radiant to reveal her truths to others, rather than to herself.

[Lopens_Cousin]

Every order of the Knights Radiant has to be bound by oaths, right? In order to gain more power, they have to follow their orders' rules. Except the Lightweavers. The only oath they have to swear is the generic, albeit awesome "Life before Death" mantra.

 

Basically, this gives the Lightweavers more power and freedom than any other Radiant, because they can choose whatever they want to do, so long as it fits the First Ideal. This is why Shallan has such a common and nasty habit of killing people in cold blood. Because she doesn't have to worry about 'remembering the forgotten' or some really cool thing. All she has to do is admit to her homicidal tendicies, and bingbangboom she gets a Shardblade.

 

So I ask, why the disparity? Ishar forced the spren to bind themselves only to honorable individuals, but left out the one's nicknamed 'Liespren'. Why?

 

There is a quote in WoR, and I believe it is an excerpt from WoR in WoR (whoa), that talks about someone who could not join the Lightweavers because he was incapable of knowing himself to the degree that the Cryptics require. (I listen on audio, so I don't have the direct quote).

 

It seems to me that admitting truths about oneself, to oneself may be as hard, if not harder, than speaking other oaths. I mean, clearly, it is difficult for Shallan, and speaking from Earthly human experience, it is certainly a difficult thing to do.

[Lopens_Cousin]

I agree with others on the rest of your quote, but one comment on this bit. Shallon actually had her Shardblade BEFORE she bonded with pattern and started weaving.  WoK ch45 "Shadesmar" / pp643:

 

 

This is well before she says any words. (I think)

 

Pattern says Shallan "said the words long ago" (or something like that) in WoR, so it seems to me that she had already spoken the first ideal when she was a child. We still don't know much about the initial encounters or bonding between Shallan and Pattern, but I don't think any Radiant can invest enough, or be bonded enough, to summon a shard blade from a spren without at least the first oath..

Edited June 12, 2016 by lopens_cousin

[Yata]

Probably she progressed in the Nahel Bond when she was joung (he had the Patternblade after all)... But then She began to break the bond and Patter runned away in the CR to save himself.

When Pattern returns She have to re-forge her bond with the "new truths"

[maxal]

Does that mean she was afraid before her mother died, did she summon her blade at 'level one', or did she say the truth as her mother was trying to kill her?

Also, I wonder what her last truth will be... Maybe the last truth is different, requiring the Radiant to reveal her truths to others, rather than to herself.

 

We know she had said truths prior to her mother's death: how many, we do not know, but she regressed when he refused to acknowledge her mother's murder and she decided to forget everything about Pattern. She lost her self-awareness, so she regressed. The truths she spoke afterwards need not be the same truths she spoke before. There is no such rule. All she has to do is be true to herself, be aware of who she is, so whatever truth helps her progress in this direction is valid. 

 

Therefore, the "I am afraid" truth was spoken in WoK: it likely isn't the same truth she spoke as a child as it probably wasn't something she needed, as an 11 years old, to gain self-awareness.

 

That's the problem with Lightweavers: yes their progression appears easy, but they can regress very rapidly and the next truth they need to speak out to regain their former level isn't the same one they previously spoke. So all in all, a Lightweaver's bond is very tenuous and hard to maintain. It also is very subjective and abstract: it isn't tied in to firm concepts such as honor.

 

For my part, I say it is much harder to be a Lightweaver than to be a Windrunner. Their surges also appear much more difficult to master. 

[Eki]

Right... I was thinking that 'regressing' would be the same as with Kaladin, where Pattern was left in an almost-dead state, until Shallan started renewing the bond again, at which point she went back to where she was before. It would make sense if Lightweavers work differently though (or maybe it did work the same for Kaladin, except he just implicitly renewed his old oaths when he swore the new one).

 

 

Maybe, though, speaking the truths isn't so much about the actual truths, but rather about understanding and accepting yourself. The individual truths would then just be the 'focus points' of that understanding. Kind of like how the spirit of the other orders' oaths is more important than the actual words spoken, I guess.

[maxal]

Right... I was thinking that 'regressing' would be the same as with Kaladin, where Pattern was left in an almost-dead state, until Shallan started renewing the bond again, at which point she went back to where she was before. It would make sense if Lightweavers work differently though (or maybe it did work the same for Kaladin, except he just implicitly renewed his old oaths when he swore the new one).

 

 

Maybe, though, speaking the truths isn't so much about the actual truths, but rather about understanding and accepting yourself. The individual truths would then just be the 'focus points' of that understanding. Kind of like how the spirit of the other orders' oaths is more important than the actual words spoken, I guess.

 

Yes I think it was exactly the same as Kaladin, except all Kaladin had to say were the oaths he already knew. Shallan had to figure out what made her regress and speak the appropriate truths which were bond to be different ones. We do not know if the 3th oath was required for Kaladin to revive Syl: I would think not as Shallan had access to Pattern again the second she started acknowledging him again, despite clearly not being at her former level.

 

I agree with the second paragraph. The truths she has to speak are not outward ones, but inward ones. They aren't truth about the world (my pet theory is the Truthwatchers have to speak external truths bearing strong significance to progress and my second very pet theory is Renarin will have to denounce/condemn his brother to progress in his Nahel bond), but truths about themselves. As long as the truth serves to understand oneself better, as long as they are meaningful enough, then they are valid, but it is a never-ending process as start to lie to yourself again and you lose levels.

[Lopens_Cousin]

Yes I think it was exactly the same as Kaladin, except all Kaladin had to say were the oaths he already knew. Shallan had to figure out what made her regress and speak the appropriate truths which were bond to be different ones. We do not know if the 3th oath was required for Kaladin to revive Syl: I would think not as Shallan had access to Pattern again the second she started acknowledging him again, despite clearly not being at her former level.

 

I agree with the second paragraph. The truths she has to speak are not outward ones, but inward ones. They aren't truth about the world (my pet theory is the Truthwatchers have to speak external truths bearing strong significance to progress and my second very pet theory is Renarin will have to denounce/condemn his brother to progress in his Nahel bond), but truths about themselves. As long as the truth serves to understand oneself better, as long as they are meaningful enough, then they are valid, but it is a never-ending process as start to lie to yourself again and you lose levels.

 

I'm really interested to see what happens with Renarin and the Truthwatchers, mainly because WoR said that no one knew what the heck they did, so I figure it's got to be awesome. Were the Truthwatchers one of the Orders with only a few (maybe even just one???) members?  I remember the Bondsmiths were only 3 or so b/c of their spren, but I thought there was another order that was really small.

 

I don't know about Renarin condemning/confronting Adolin, but I do think something confrontational will happen between Renarin and Shallan. We don't know a whole lot about the Lightweavers and even less (basically nothing) about the Truthwatchers, but the significance of Lies to the Cryptics and Shallan's disdain for Renarin make me think about a conflict between Truth and Lies.

 

minor point: Kaladin didn't already know the words, did he? Syl says he as to find them, i.e. figure it out.

[maxal]

I'm really interested to see what happens with Renarin and the Truthwatchers, mainly because WoR said that no one knew what the heck they did, so I figure it's got to be awesome. Were the Truthwatchers one of the Orders with only a few (maybe even just one???) members?  I remember the Bondsmiths were only 3 or so b/c of their spren, but I thought there was another order that was really small.

 

I don't know about Renarin condemning/confronting Adolin, but I do think something confrontational will happen between Renarin and Shallan. We don't know a whole lot about the Lightweavers and even less (basically nothing) about the Truthwatchers, but the significance of Lies to the Cryptics and Shallan's disdain for Renarin make me think about a conflict between Truth and Lies.

 

minor point: Kaladin didn't already know the words, did he? Syl says he as to find them, i.e. figure it out.

 

Kaladin had to find the words, but they were pre-determined words. I guess it depends on your personal perspective, but I find revealing the truth about yourself to be harder.

 

We do not know much about the Truthwatcher: I personally go from speculation. This being said, it seems plausible a conflict would emerge in between Shallan and Renarin is only because they are very different individual. Shallan always sees the positive side, focusing on what she can do while Renarin always sees the negative side, focusing on what he cannot do. This alone is enough to cause friction.

 

For the rest, it is a pet peeve, therefore not supported by any valid argumentation. I figured it may be so Truthwatchers are about unraveling external truths. In this line of ideas, I figured a speculative future where it may be so the only truth Glys would accept for leveling up Renarin is the one about his brother as no alternative truth would be as strong. Renarin would then be forced to either denounce his brother (and thus condemning him) or to accept losing his bond... In the advent his powers are needed for the future Desolation, he would be left with a terrible dilemma. It is all very speculative, but speculative futures are my specialty   

Edited June 13, 2016 by maxal