neongrey Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 So I'm shooting for 120k total on this work, presently a bit over a third of the way in terms of first-draft writing on it. It is a social/political fantasy, and it is, in a manner of speaking, a supervillain origin story. It is probably in the same subgenre family as The Traitor Baru Comorant but it similarly probably is more directly inspired by House of Cards, though that's not liable to shine through for a while. It's a story that involves high fashion and demon summoning in more or less equal measure. General questions: Were you particularly confused by anything? What did you think of Lasila? How about Varinen? One specific one: There's a point where the narration transitions from referring to Lasila's brother as 'her brother' and starts using his name. When this name pops up, is it obvious that it's her brother's name? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Hi! Overall I loved the world building at the start, and thought it was very well integrated. It got a little much towards page 3, and I noted where in the comments below. I'd be interested enough, based upon the first two pages, to read another chapter. The dialogue at the end though would give me pause. As I Go - page 3: why is gave in italics? - page 3, paragraph starting with 'Lasila drifted': The world building was good up until about here. I was enjoying it. At this paragraph it started to get tedious. I want action now, or tension. It was hard to keep myself from skimming through this paragraph and the next. Your Questions Confused - not confused so much as disappointed a smidgen. There were a lot of fun teasers in the world building in the beginning, and I hoped to see echoes of them in the dialogue at the end. Instead, the dialogue was very straightforward. With all the richness early, it felt flat. Lasila - seems reasonable for this type of book. I'm expecting copious political intrigue now Varinen - this character seems more one-dimensional thus far, but we haven't seen as much of him yet. I have no strong feelings about him one way or the other right now. Name transition - I had no issue with this 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path Posted May 24, 2016 Report Share Posted May 24, 2016 (edited) This is really interesting so far, I don't have anything to note story-wise. I do have some nitpicks, though. (I'm using § to denote paragraphs, as in every time you used a double enter) §1 To me, "in time with" indicates a repeating event, maybe replace by "along with"? §5 That second sentence is not clear, "hard luck" (as I've always heard it) means bad luck, I don't think it would be bad luck to find decent food. It would both be hard and lucky, under these circumstances. §6 Add in a comma after artists, I think. Robinski would have to confirm that. §15 What's a taenosil? From what follows (the breaking into pieces) I assumed it was some sort of fruit or vegetable until I got a few paragraphs on. You could replace "broke it..." with "broke the <adjective> <noun>..." to make it clear immediately. §32 Should be "There aren't enough hours..." since I get the impression that Lasila would pay close attention to (so-called) proper grammar. (I'd accept this from Varinen, though) Finally, about those double enters, I hate to be blunt, but that's just bad formatting, especially during the conversation. I know most people would say it doesn't matter to the story, but breaking up the text like that actually makes it harder to read, whether the reader realizes it or not. You'd be a lot better served by a first line indent, which leaves using a blank line available for the more important subdivisions of a chapter. Edited May 24, 2016 by EagleOfTheForestPath 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted May 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2016 (edited) - page 3: why is gave in italics? Our viewpoint character being somewhat petulant with the undertone of suggestion that she did not, in fact, actually give it a fair chance. - page 3, paragraph starting with 'Lasila drifted': The world building was good up until about here. I was enjoying it. At this paragraph it started to get tedious. I want action now, or tension. It was hard to keep myself from skimming through this paragraph and the next. I'll mark those paragraphs for rework; what those do is really say a lot about the sort of person her brother is but without him actually having shown up yet it's not necessarily doing the reader a lot of good. Confused - not confused so much as disappointed a smidgen. There were a lot of fun teasers in the world building in the beginning, and I hoped to see echoes of them in the dialogue at the end. Instead, the dialogue was very straightforward. With all the richness early, it felt flat. Interesting, because if I was going to look at that dialogue at the end it was going to be over how really expository I feel it is. It's flumphing a lot of stuff down-- the personal drain from the war, Lasila's extreme self-centredness, the very edge of the geopolitical quagmire that's looming over everyone, etc. Might be rework could handle this more elegantly though, I'll make a note. Name transition - I had no issue with this Okay, cool, it's just something that I did have someone specifically call out but it scans fine to me, so I try and get extra opinions, lol. §1 To me, "in time with" indicates a repeating event, maybe replace by "along with"? That sentence could probably be a bit better, I will look at it. §5 That second sentence is not clear, "hard luck" (as I've always heard it) means bad luck, I don't think it would be bad luck to find decent food. It would both be hard and lucky, under these circumstances. 'hard luck verbing' has always suggested that the verb would be an unlikely occurance, at least as far as I have always been aware. But if it's a difficult phrase it could be adjusted. §6 Add in a comma after artists, I think. Robinski would have to confirm that. Cash-poor is a direct modifier to artists so a comma's inappropriate but it's a weird inverted construction, I will allow; I do that sometimes without realizing. Swapping the two words would probably fix it. §15 What's a taenosil? From what follows (the breaking into pieces) I assumed it was some sort of fruit or vegetable until I got a few paragraphs on. You could replace "broke it..." with "broke the <adjective> <noun>..." to make it clear immediately. They're a staple meat animal, somewhere between rabbit and guinea pig; ubiquitous enough that pov doesn't give much thought to them unless they're actually alive and wheeking, so I'm not too terribly worried if it's not instantaneously obvious so long as it's not confusing. Break down is a pretty standard term for butchering a carcass, though, as far as I am aware? §32 Should be "There aren't enough hours..." since I get the impression that Lasila would pay close attention to (so-called) proper grammar. (I'd accept this from Varinen, though) Might be a regionalism; if I were to rework it though I'd probably start the sentence over and do something else, 'there aren't' doesn't flow how I want it to there. Finally, about those double enters, I hate to be blunt, but that's just bad formatting, especially during the conversation. I know most people would say it doesn't matter to the story, but breaking up the text like that actually makes it harder to read, whether the reader realizes it or not. You'd be a lot better served by a first line indent, which leaves using a blank line available for the more important subdivisions of a chapter. It's standard format for Web text, which is how I've had people read it thus far. It's certainly possible to change the paragraphing when I pull from my drafts to put into Word format, though, if it's troublesome. Thanks, both of you, for reading! Edited May 24, 2016 by neongrey 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spieles Posted May 24, 2016 Report Share Posted May 24, 2016 My first thought is that we're getting a LOT of information right off the bat that I'm maybe not ready to care about yet. I'm wondering if this could be set up more in a scene? It'd be lovely to learn this gradually. For example, we see Lasila choosing what beautiful piece of furniture to burn. I like wings in stories. LOL. Favored trope. p. 2 Still so much information without much conflict. p. 4 - finally! Some interaction! The dialogue could be cut down a bit to feel more natural. p. 6 Laila's explanation of the problems in the city is much more natural here. Good ending. I like the final line. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdpulfer Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 - I really like the first line. - Having a bit of trouble picturing everything since you mentioned the character has wings, which I'm guessing makes them humanoid. Would have liked more description on the people, since the world also seems to be semi-modern. - There's a lot of information to slog through, and even when the siblings start interacting, it's still at a fairly slow place. I know this is the first chapter and all, but you might want to pick up the pace at some points. - The last line, much like the first, is very strong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamon Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 This was very well written, and I think that was what most managed to keep my attention. I was sort of reminded of Jane Austen writing a war story. There's a big aside on the first page describing the situation in the city. I think this is good information to have, but at the moment, I'd rather get introduced to Lasila. The actions on the second page keep my attention more. This sort of thing continues through the submission. We dive into financial and political matters immediately. It leaves me a little displaced from the characters. Again, this is very good, and I want to keep reading, but the subject matter is a little dry for an introduction to these two characters. On your questions: Not confused by anything--I think it was all explained well, though I'm not sure of my reason for caring yet. I think Lasila is a good character. She seems to be getting by as best she can. She's proactive and sympathetic, so that overpowers the fact that she's not particularly likeable yet. Varinen I haven't gotten as much of a read on yet. He seems less competent than his sister. I was at first confused when "Varinen" popped up as she was talking about him being in some sort of council. I thought it was a city leader of some sort until he came home for dinner. Like eagle, I was confused on taenosil until you said "meat" and then I assumed it was a small prey animal of some sort. As Kiasa and Spieles say, There's a bit more worldbuilding than currently needed at this point in the story. To give you an idea of this: I completely forgot that you mentioned wings until I read through the comments. I saw it and was excited when you first mentioned it, but then forgot with all the social/political intrigue. So in summary, a good beginning, I'm intrigued, but it's a little bit of a dry start with the plunge into the political situation. I want to know more about the wings! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted May 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 yeah probably a 'her brother, varinen' is probably the best way to lead into that first name mention; i just have wanted to hold off on that because visually i like it better without, but it's not a huge deal. Sounds like going at this bit with an axe will be a good idea, which fair cop. I dislike direct exposition a lot so when a fair bit of it is necessary for stage-setting as it is here, it's not my best, haha. The thing about Varinen and why I'm specifically asking about him is less so much that he's going to be a big main character so much as that he leaves the stage quite early but the relationship between the two of them needs to get sold pretty hard and it's modestly complex-- which, well, to be expected, given that he's significantly older and was placed in a more direct position of authority over her than is usual between siblings. If this were epic, he'd probably be the main character. But the story's not leaving the city and it's not a story where hitting dudes with swords is desirable or particularly cool. "semi-modern" is probably accurate; if I'm being more specific I'd call it on the edge of the industrial revolution, with the war having explicitly held a lot of things back, but it's also a place where technological development has been very different due to magical influences. If I'm being very specific the key difference is a lack of mechanization; I know what is and is not doable with magic and if it fits I run with it rather than adhering to certain real-world periods. This will actually become most obvious when it comes up to fashion... Thank you! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kammererite Posted May 27, 2016 Report Share Posted May 27, 2016 (edited) Great opening line. I enjoyed the world building in the story although i wish it were a little more focus on why the family was so poor which was a big question for me rather then the other world building. Something in Lasila and her brothers conversation felt off to me but i am not really sure what. I think it might be how all of a sudden she's acting so much younger and complaining about everything compared to how mature she acted earlier in the submission. That said i do like the conflict you are introducing in this dialogue for going forward. I didn't have a problem picking up the transition from her brother to his name. Good ending. Edited May 27, 2016 by Kammererite 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krystalynn03 Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 Hi there Neongray, welcome back to the board! “knew the goddess was dead” – Nice first line. It opens the story with a question in my mind. “should go” – I like the deep 3rd, but here since it’s the first chapter, I felt a little left hanging not to know where she should go—probably the funeral, but the next sentence didn’t confirm, so I still feel a little lost here Description of brother is good, although the sentence is a little unwieldy in its phrasing “listened to dictates…lowlanders?” – Another couple sentences with good info, but again, a little unwieldy. I understand what they mean just fine, but they’re so long I can tell you’re trying info-dump the reader really fast with setting rather than feeling like a natural progression “Just as well…infrastructure” – At this point, this has turned into full expo-bomb, and I’m starting to worry if plot will happen… “arcanists…lowlands to fight and die” –And I’m officially scanning more than reading now because you’re not giving me anything about the character to hang onto or care about after two hefty paragraphs “mother directly and mother indirectly” – A little character development…but not generating sympathy because it’s so embedded in exposition “wondered if she should miss her more. Or at all.” –Now I’m growing more interesting in Lasila as a character. “oil was plentiful” – Hm, why? Who’s producing it if the population has taken such a hit? “Varinen” – Father or brother? “half a taenosil” – I’m not against fantasy vegetables, but I wish you’d given me a mental image to go with it “Varinen back” – So it is the brother. Wish I’d known the first time. Book on Swordfighting – If Lasila takes up sword fighting soon, I’m okay with this. If not, I feel like this paragraph is wasting my time, and furthermore, makes me wonder how Lasila has luxury time to sit and read when she has to be bothering with hauling water. That kind of chore suggests a hard life where everything is manual. “taenosil meat” – Oh darn. It was an animal? Again, wish you had told me that up front… Physical descriptions: These aren’t bad world and character building details comparing her with her brother, but it would still be better if it were spread out along plot rather than stopping the story for it. Lasila worried about her brother marrying: Seems the opposite ought to be true. A wife would mean more expenses in the house, more mouths to feed, and when she gets pregnant, even more mouths to feed. The brother should be the better bread winner here, therefore, it seems if this is a patriarchy as you suggest, that Lasila would feel the pressure more than Varinen… “landing anyone” – This sounds really modern compared to the rest of the prose And now I see the sister is worried about herself more than him, complain retracted “It’s not like I’m abandoning you” – I’m wishing I had some suggestion of her age at this point Overall thoughts: You’re exposition heavy through-out. Things picked up when the brother came home and they started interacting. I like that you’re able to communicate a social class level well, but I feel like Lasila is still a seed of a character, not fully developed yet, like some of her actions and dialogue are wavering and not quite agreeing with each other. Some of Varinen’s lines dragged as he expounded on the same idea over the course of several sentences. Tighten up the whole thing and it’ll run better. Also, I suggest introduce some deeper tension earlier in the chapter, something to give me real cause to wade through the world building for. Thanks for submitting! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted May 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 Among other things Lasila is extremely appearance-focused, and likes to think about things like infrastructure. This is a huge reason why I think I'm going to need to work in the second POV earlier than I do-- but that's a ways out yet so let's put a pin in that thought until we get there. It's a very much fraying patriarchy, and it's questionable how deeply-set it ever was in the first place; this will be gotten into much more thoroughly as we go, but it's only a little bit unusual at most that Lasila largely expects to be in the position of managing her own potential marriage. She has a number of expectations of her brother as far as his own situation goes, not all of which are reasonable. The text says outright she's seventeen, though. Age of majority is nineteen, though that's not terribly relevant, yet. Thanks for reading! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 §6 Add in a comma after artists, I think. Robinski would have to confirm that. I concur. I must admit I wasn't comment on a line-by-line basis. That wall of text due to the single line formatting is quite off-putting to the eye. Also, I'm trying to catch up two weeks here!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 I was sort of reminded of Jane Austen writing a war story. Lol - MRK meets Herman Wouk! (Btw - If you don't know who Herman Wouk is, Wiki him. 101 years old and published his last book in January 2016 at the age of 100.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Great to read something from your, Neon, as it’s been quite a while, February 2014 according to my extensive records So, I enjoyed this to some extent, more so after I got further into it. I like the tone, and I thought you did a good job of conveying a family ‘down on its luck’, so to speak. The rather shabby nature of their lives came across for me quite well – again, once further into the submission. There were some notes that sounded off to me, and hopefully I have detailed those sufficiently below, however my main concerns were as follows. (1) too much detail at the start which threatened to lose me in the first couple of paragraphs instead of engaging me with the character, and (2) the main character being rather selfish and not especially endearing within the submission but, to be honest, I don’t mind that. I'm willing to accept that if it’s well written, and I think your story is that, with some tidying up. In summary, I'm on board and looking forward to seeing where it goes, although not head-over-heels just yet. <R> p.s. On your questions, I would answer as follows: Were you particularly confused by anything? – The opening, too much info to retain or properly understand. What did you think of Lasila? – Slightly annoying, but with reason to be bitter, I suppose. How about Varinen? – Rather spineless when it comes to his sister, which detracted from my impression of him as an important senate guard given a special duty. Transition to Varinen? – No problem for me. --------------------------------------------------------------- Good first line, I'm engaged straight away to find out what is going on. As I read on, she almost instantly dismisses the death of the goddess for some time, and never really puts it into context. “A bit of water sloshed onto her feet, but most of it stayed put” – unnecessary. “and she was old enough now” – but you don’t explain how old. At this point, she could be 15 or 35, or whatever. I'm feeling quite disoriented after the first two paragraphs. There is a lot of information in there, but not in a good way, I think. I don’t know enough to be able to put it in context. For me, it’s too much too soon. Also, it sounds like she moves in quite elevated circles, so what the heck is she doing carrying buckets? Later, you mention “how far the family had fallen” – I could have done with that much sooner. “burning some of the ugliest furniture just to keep warm” – If you have to burn furniture, I would imagine that practicality is the most important thing. Let’s say you have ten chairs and one table. You don’t burn the table because it’s uglier than the chairs. You have to have a table, you don’t need 10 chairs!! “one of the great canals that spiraled upward through the city. It was still in use, by the sound, but the constant roar she remembered from her childhood” – Canals don’t roar, by definition, in canals the water is essentially static and the vessels require an independent source of propulsion. If water is flowing, these are aqueducts. Even then, they are not well designed. Roaring water implies large amounts of energy, which results in big problems for the designers, water with big energy imposes massive loads on structures carrying it. Bad design. “The last time the goddess had died was just before Lasila had been born” – For such a rare occurrence she seems particularly unmoved by it. It’s an inconvenience to her, nothing more, judging from her reaction. “There was half a taenosil that should be used up before it went off” – What is this? Animal, vegetable? You describe the garnish, but I don’t know what is being cooked. I think this is indicative of the main problem I'm having. Lots of information is thrown out, but there is little explanation, so I'm left with many questions as facts and remarks fly past. I'm not convinced by her taking a random book. Anyone interested in reading is going to choose a book before they sit down. I would accept this if she sat down and found the book on the table, but her actions tell me she does not actually care for reading. “There was, however, a very great deal of poetry devoted to the author's sword. She was fairly certain it was not a metaphor.” – I think you mean metaphorical. I don’t see how a collection of poetry can be a single metaphor. “She piled up the taenosil meat on top of thick slices of the last of the bread, and used a good slosh of water and oil to make a quick sauce, which she poured on top” – I’d like to see the reference to ‘meat’ at the first mention of ‘taenosil’. Also, that bread is going to be really mushy by the time her brother gets home. Wouldn’t she be more likely to wait until he was back before dishing the food? “but it was just more dusting that neither she nor Varinen really cared to bother with more often than they had to” – really awkward wording. “She rose, wings flexing with irritation” – Huh? Since when has she had wings? “She cleared her throat twice and said, projecting from the bottom of her stomach” – People don’t actually do this when they shout, they just shout, seems unnecessary and distracting. “at least if you weren't familiar enough with both of them” – awkward wording, and referring to ‘you’ feels like breaking the 4th wall in a rather strange way. “and she'd never been blessed with a lack of confidence in her looks” – I skipped past this after failing to work out what it meant on the first pass. “It seemed almost an insult that the trends of the moment had gone in a direction that was literally impossible for her” – Wow, she is really shallow. “At least the bread had thoroughly soaked up the sauce and juices during the wait” – That bread must have been hard as a rock originally, based on the time span – I think. “There's are not enough hours in the day” – grammar. “Is there anything at all I can do?” – He is really weak with his sister – not an attractive quality, and her poor reception of his news makes her look selfish, which is maybe what you were looking for. “'Fine' seemed like a terrible ideal.” – Did you mean ‘idea’? Even if so, it’s not a great last line, imho. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krystalynn03 Posted June 3, 2016 Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 “one of the great canals that spiraled upward through the city. It was still in use, by the sound, but the constant roar she remembered from her childhood” – Canals don’t roar, by definition, in canals the water is essentially static and the vessels require an independent source of propulsion. If water is flowing, these are aqueducts. Even then, they are not well designed. Roaring water implies large amounts of energy, which results in big problems for the designers, water with big energy imposes massive loads on structures carrying it. Bad design. Trust <R> on this. He knows all the things! :D :D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path Posted June 3, 2016 Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 Actually, on this one I think canals are viable. It's a mountainous city, so canals would by necessity include water locks. When the water in a lock descends, that could produce a lot of noise, depending on how the water is expelled from the lock. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted June 3, 2016 Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 Actually, on this one I think canals are viable. It's a mountainous city, so canals would by necessity include water locks. When the water in a lock descends, that could produce a lot of noise, depending on how the water is expelled from the lock. Fair comment, but your description does not convey that it's the roar of water filling a lock. At the distance that Lissa is away from the lock, I'm not at all convinced she would hear a roar, unless it was a distant one, and therefore rather faint. Locks are filled (generally) by fairly small sluices. Not enough to produce a roar, in my view, unless we're talking the Panama Canal!! Why should you pay any attention to my opinion on this matter? A reasonable question to ask. I am a Civil Engineer of almost (not quite!) 30 years experience and completed my degree diseration on water engineering and hydraulic related issues. As Krystalynn says, I do know a reasonably amount about this stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted June 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 (edited) Fair points, and I'll probably look at it, the noise at the very least, though I'll also note that water also doesn't naturally flow straight upwards, lol. Which might not have been as clear as I would have liked, so this certainly will need some adjustment-- the key points here are that this water is doing something it does not do under real-world conditions, and that this is perfectly normal, so within those tolerances I've got a fair bit of play. There absolutely are independent sources of propulsion, actually... and if you're coming away with the impression that it's inefficient and a display of form over function, that's not exactly unintentional! Much like Lasila not actually caring very much about what she's reading (though that's a bloated couple paragraphs), and, well, if Lasila's primary motive force wasn't her own self-interest, I wouldn't have a story here. Well, I would, probably, but not the legally blonde meets house of cards-esqe dealio I'm going for, lol. Edited June 3, 2016 by neongrey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 I'll also note that water also doesn't naturally flow straight upwards, lol. Which might not have been as clear as I would have liked. The legally blonde meets house of cards-esqe dealio I'm going for, lol. The water is going... uphill?! No, I did not get that, or the 'unnatural' propulsion, but the flow is still contained by natural materials, or maybe it's not. Anyway, I'll let it go! You're going to review, after all. My work here is done Love your pitch. I think you've captured her narcissism very well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted June 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 Not for a while, mind-- I'd like to finish the thing first--, but notes like this don't go bad, haha. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.d41b1ca865930ccf5f63b08a839f908e.png){kind=logo}
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.