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I haven't found any other forums that discuss exactly this, so I made a new topic.

 

This forum proved that the Nightwatcher could be/probably is Cultivation.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/38165-cultivation-is-the-nightwatcher/?hl=%2Bnightwatcher+%2Bspren#entry310555

 

So lets work with that assumption. We see that Syl, an Honor spren, refers to the Stormfather as her father. The Stormfather is also shown to be a part of Honor that fled when honor was killed. 

 

Quick note: Based on the book, elemental spren are from Cultivation, and emotional spren are from Honor. It looks like there might be an equal number of Cultivation spren (Shadow spren, possibly Light Spren) and Honor spren (Honor spren, Cryptics, High Spren) in the Knights Radiant in the end.

 

So, since Wyndle calls the Nightwatcher "mother," what if he is a ..... Cultivation Spren! Wyndle is made up of vines, which you cultivate. Also, one of the surges he provides is growth and regrowth, which seem very reminiscent of the idea of cultivation.

 

Tell me what you think, is Wyndle a Cultivation Spren?

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I think you are mistaken in a couple places. First off, the Nightwatcher isn't Cultivation. She is related to Cultivation, but we don't know/are certain that she isn't the actual being of Cultivation. Second, we don't know if Cultivation produces nature spren while Honor produces emotion spren. Just the fact that Syl is 'cousins' with the windspren kind of disproves this. Many people think that these spren are splinters of Adonalsium himself. Also, we don't know that Cryptics are of Honor, why would a LIEspren be of Honor?

As for the actual topic, Wyndle is of Cultivation, but his kind of spren isn't exactly THE cultivation spren.

Relevant WoB below.

INTERVIEW: Mar 11th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - Awesomeness Summoned (Verbatim)

QUESTION

Is the Nightwatcher a spren of Cultivation in a similar way that the Stormfather is to Honor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Nightwatcher is not Cultivation but is related. You're on the right track.

TAGS

nightwatcher, cultivation,

BRANDON SANDERSON

They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other splinters.

WETLANDER

Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen splinters quite a bit on various planets.

TAGS

adonalsium, spren, splinters, slivers,

QUESTION

Syl identifies herself as an honorspren.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

QUESTION

Would Wyndle identify himself as a cultivation spren? [Pause]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. I think you could say that he would.

QUESTION

By the same logic, would a voidspren follow the same naming convention, so to speak?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Here's the thing. Certain spren have decided that they are the most pure forms of honor, or that they are the most pure form of whatever, where all of them are kind of... Syl's got a good argument for what she is. But there are other spren that would be like "well, I'm an honorspren too, I'm just this variety of honorspren." Does that make sense? Syl's like "I'm an American!" and I'm like "I'm an Alaskan!" Yes, you're an American. I'm an American too. It's kind of similar to that. But she would be the most pure... many would view her as the purest form. Wyndle would view himself as the purest form of a cultivation spren.

TAGS

spren,

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Hello Blightsong,

Okay, Brandon Sanderson has been intentionally vague about the Nightwatcher's nature, answering questions in a very roundabout way. There is clearly some relationship between the Nightwatcher and Cultivation, but Mr. Sanderson seems to hide it.

 

Moving on, when I said elemental vs emotional, I was basing that on a discussion between Jasnah and Shallan, (I don't know exactly where) where they talk about the classification  of spren. They say that elemental are from Cultivation and the human-based are from Honor. They could be wrong, but for now I'm going with that. Based on that, painspren and fearspren and probably even liespren would be from Honor. The Stormfather doesn't make sense with this classification, unless he represents something other storms.

 

Lastly, how does this say that Wyndle is not the Cultivationspren. In fact, that last WoB seems to prove my theory even further. (By the way, I could not find anything discussing Cultivation before I wrote this, so I didn't know it had been asked before.) He says that Wyndle considers himself the purest form of Cultivation spren, so why does that say that he is not?


 

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Also, we don't know that Cryptics are of Honor, why would a LIEspren be of Honor?

 

Sometimes the honorable thing to do is pretend something didn't happen, tell white lies, etc. Though we see nothing to connect Liespren to the Stormfather (though not sure we really see anything to outright discount that either.

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Sometimes the honorable thing to do is pretend something didn't happen, tell white lies, etc. Though we see nothing to connect Liespren to the Stormfather (though not sure we really see anything to outright discount that either.

Let's not forget either that the Cryptic we've seen seems to be inordinately terrible at lying. If that's normal, calling them Liespren really is a misnomer anyways. They're fascinated by lies, but perhaps that's because they can only innately understand truth.

jW

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Let's not forget either that the Cryptic we've seen seems to be inordinately terrible at lying. If that's normal, calling them Liespren really is a misnomer anyways. They're fascinated by lies, but perhaps that's because they can only innately understand truth.

jW

 

Adding to this, cryptics/lightweaver are attracted to honesty, not lies. And Syl is very specifically not a truth spren, but an honor spren. So what if cryptics are actually more truth spren than lie spren. Besides all that, the definition of cryptic is: having a meaning that is mysterious or obscure. Notice how the definition doesn't say anything about lies.

 

Sometimes the honorable thing to do is pretend something didn't happen, tell white lies, etc. Though we see nothing to connect Liespren to the Stormfather (though not sure we really see anything to outright discount that either.

Liespren don't necessarily have to be connected to the Stormfather to be connected to Honor, remember, the Stormfather is a part of Honor, not all of him.

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The other thing is I think we are getting too caught up with the literal definition of a lie. Shallan views herself as a strong assertive woman like Jasnah when she needs to take over the caravan and then take over the bandits. Bluth (i think that's his name, I am blanking now) is shown how he could have been and it drives him to be a better person and fight to protect innocents. Pattern calls those lies. But all they are is how a person perceives themselves and how others perceive them. It is a lie that becomes a truth when they chose to believe it and make it a reality. There is honor in believing in people and encouraging them to be more than they think they are. That is how I interpreted the whole lie/cryptic deal. Yes lying to hurt or take advantage of someone is wrong. But I do not believe what Shallan and Pattern are doing is lying in that regard. 

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I just want to point out that Pattern actually straight up lies. He tells actual untruths. Yes he is bad at it, but that almost definitly has to do with his personality, not the nature of Cryptics in general. Syl, who we know is definitly of Honor, is disgusted by lies. She is extremely offended when Kal accuses her of doing so. We see none of this behavior from Pattern.

Also, how exactly are Cryptics attracted to truths? Yes, their bond is strengthened by truths, Words of radiance (in world) says that they try to obtain a higher sense of self awareness. This is a lot more in line with Cultivation, which is associated with development and acquiring. Cryptics seek out those who lie to themselves, like Shallan does. This is what attracts them, hiding ones own self from themselves, so that they may cultivate a higher sense of self awareness.

Sometimes the honorable thing to do is pretend something didn't happen, tell white lies, etc. Though we see nothing to connect Liespren to the Stormfather (though not sure we really see anything to outright discount that either.

This is a mistake I often seen made in relation to this shard, while telling white lies can be the 'good' thing to do it isn't the 'honorable' thing. Our culture has mixed those two things in their use, and good people are usually honorable, but the Shard itself is separated from the virtues that give it context. Honor can be cruel, Brandon even confirmed to me that amy Honorspren can be cruel despite its intent. They're is very little honorable about Liespren, and I don't see how a being who can seemingly lie itself could be of Honor. They would have to betray their own nature.

T here is honor in believing in people and encouraging them to be more than they think they are. That is how I interpreted the whole lie/cryptic deal. Yes lying to hurt or take advantage of someone is wrong. But I do not believe what Shallan and Pattern are doing is lying in that regard.

Relevant arguements above. I would say that helping one be more then they are is 100% Cultivation.

Hello Blightsong,

Okay, Brandon Sanderson has been intentionally vague about the Nightwatcher's nature, answering questions in a very roundabout way. There is clearly some relationship between the Nightwatcher and Cultivation, but Mr. Sanderson seems to hide it.

 

Moving on, when I said elemental vs emotional, I was basing that on a discussion between Jasnah and Shallan, (I don't know exactly where) where they talk about the classification  of spren. They say that elemental are from Cultivation and the human-based are from Honor. They could be wrong, but for now I'm going with that. Based on that, painspren and fearspren and probably even liespren would be from Honor. The Stormfather doesn't make sense with this classification, unless he represents something other storms.

 

Lastly, how does this say that Wyndle is not the Cultivationspren. In fact, that last WoB seems to prove my theory even further. (By the way, I could not find anything discussing Cultivation before I wrote this, so I didn't know it had been asked before.) He says that Wyndle considers himself the purest form of Cultivation spren, so why does that say that he is not?

The Nightwatcher does have a vague relationship to Cultivation, I'm not saying that they aren't related, I'm just saying that the Nightwatcher isn't Cultivation. Those two are synonymous. This is basicly the one thing about that relationship that brandon has confirmed.

We don't know much about spren, but I think it is naive to put spren into either the category of Honor or Cultivation when we know that spren existed on Roshar before those two ever showed up.

That quote spells out why Wyndle isn't 'the' cultivation spren. Is because there are several other spren that could be considered that. Just like how Honorspren aren't exactly 'the' honor spren. There are several other spren that consider themselves so.

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I just want to point out that Pattern actually straight up lies. He tells actual untruths. Yes he is bad at it, but that almost definitly has to do with his personality, not the nature of Cryptics in general. Syl, who we know is definitly of Honor, is disgusted by lies. She is extremely offended when Kal accuses her of doing so. We see none of this behavior from Pattern.

First of all, I can't remember where pattern actually lies. If you could show me where, that would be great. Secondly, imagine there was something Americans did that was extremely offensive to Canadians. (Which I am sure there are.) Both of these countries come from the UK, but their cultures are entirely different. Why couldn't spren from Honor have the same differences? Both of these cultures have been around for quite some time, so why couldn't they have evolved differently. Now, before somebody tells me that spren are based on certain characteristics that they couldn't deviate from, that is wrong. Spren, like much other investiture, is based on perceptions. So, if perceptions of Cryptics change over time, they would too. Lastly for this topic, once again, they are not Liespren, they are Cryptics. Being cryptic does not mean lying. Besides, Brandon Sanderson emphasizes in the book that Pattern doesn't ask for lies, he asks for truths and lies.

 

Also, how exactly are Cryptics attracted to truths? Yes, their bond is strengthened by truths, Words of radiance (in world) says that they try to obtain a higher sense of self awareness. This is a lot more in line with Cultivation, which is associated with development and acquiring. Cryptics seek out those who lie to themselves, like Shallan does. This is what attracts them, hiding ones own self from themselves, so that they may cultivate a higher sense of self awareness.

 

Moving on, the reason I said that they are drawn to honesty is because of the Heralds. Each of the Heralds are connected with two attributes, Shallash's being creativity and honesty. I took those two atrributes to mean that spren are attracted to those attributes. For instance, Jesrien, Windrunner Herald, is protecting and leading. Kaladin seems to have those two nailed. Ishar, the Truthwatcher Herald, is pious and guiding. Ym, may he rest in peace, seems to have had those two attributes too. Battar, Elsecalling Herald, is wise and careful. Sound like any teleporting scholar to you? Maybe the spren grant these too their Knights, but we see Kaladin leading and protecting even after Syl is gone.

 

 

This is a mistake I often seen made in relation to this shard, while telling white lies can be the 'good' thing to do it isn't the 'honorable' thing. Our culture has mixed those two things in their use, and good people are usually honorable, but the Shard itself is separated from the virtues that give it context. Honor can be cruel, Brandon even confirmed to me that amy Honorspren can be cruel despite its intent. They're is very little honorable about Liespren, and I don't see how a being who can seemingly lie itself could be of Honor. They would have to betray their own nature.

 

The definition of honor is knowing and doing what is morally right. I can think of scenarios where lying would be morally right. Example, which would be more morally right: lying to a nazi and telling them you hat Jews as much as he does, or betraying the Jewish family hidden in your attic?

 

Also, why do you think liespren aren't honorable? Isn't sending of your own people into the real world where he would probably die so that you can save the world and study humans pretty honorable?

 

 

We don't know much about spren, but I think it is naive to put spren into either the category of Honor or Cultivation when we know that spren existed on Roshar before those two ever showed up.

 

The reason I put them into those categories is because Jasnah and Shallan talked about it and decided that is probably what the classification system is. Until proven otherwise, I am going to follow their system. Of course, there are some outliers. The Stormfather most notably.

 

 

That quote spells out why Wyndle isn't 'the' cultivation spren. Is because there are several other spren that could be considered that. Just like how Honorspren aren't exactly 'the' honor spren. There are several other spren that consider themselves so.

Lastly, I am saing Wyndle would call himself a cultivationspren, and that is what the book will probably call him. Just like the book calls Syl an honor spren. This topic was not designed as a study of sprens' nature and what they should really be called, it's just what they would be called in the books.

(P.S. By saying this, aren't you destroying your earlier claim about the liespren being naturally liars because of their names?)

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First of all, I can't remember where pattern actually lies. If you could show me where, that would be great. Secondly, imagine there was something Americans did that was extremely offensive to Canadians. (Which I am sure there are.) Both of these countries come from the UK, but their cultures are entirely different. Why couldn't spren from Honor have the same differences? Both of these cultures have been around for quite some time, so why couldn't they have evolved differently. Now, before somebody tells me that spren are based on certain characteristics that they couldn't deviate from, that is wrong. Spren, like much other investiture, is based on perceptions. So, if perceptions of Cryptics change over time, they would too. Lastly for this topic, once again, they are not Liespren, they are Cryptics. Being cryptic does not mean lying. Besides, Brandon Sanderson emphasizes in the book that Pattern doesn't ask for lies, he asks for truths and lies.

 

 

Moving on, the reason I said that they are drawn to honesty is because of the Heralds. Each of the Heralds are connected with two attributes, Shallash's being creativity and honesty. I took those two atrributes to mean that spren are attracted to those attributes. For instance, Jesrien, Windrunner Herald, is protecting and leading. Kaladin seems to have those two nailed. Ishar, the Truthwatcher Herald, is pious and guiding. Ym, may he rest in peace, seems to have had those two attributes too. Battar, Elsecalling Herald, is wise and careful. Sound like any teleporting scholar to you? Maybe the spren grant these too their Knights, but we see Kaladin leading and protecting even after Syl is gone.

 

 

 

The definition of honor is knowing and doing what is morally right. I can think of scenarios where lying would be morally right. Example, which would be more morally right: lying to a nazi and telling them you hat Jews as much as he does, or betraying the Jewish family hidden in your attic?

 

Also, why do you think liespren aren't honorable? Isn't sending of your own people into the real world where he would probably die so that you can save the world and study humans pretty honorable?

 

 

 

The reason I put them into those categories is because Jasnah and Shallan talked about it and decided that is probably what the classification system is. Until proven otherwise, I am going to follow their system. Of course, there are some outliers. The Stormfather most notably.

 

 

Lastly, I am saing Wyndle would call himself a cultivationspren, and that is what the book will probably call him. Just like the book calls Syl an honor spren. This topic was not designed as a study of sprens' nature and what they should really be called, it's just what they would be called in the books.

(P.S. By saying this, aren't you destroying your earlier claim about the liespren being naturally liars because of their names?)

Im on mobile and can't properly format, I will reply in the order that you responded. I would also like to preface this by saying that I don't belive that Cryptics are 100% Cultivation, as you belive that they are 100% Honor based on your above posts. There is obviously mixing, although I think that Cryptics are mostly cultivation. As always, WoB I mention will be at the bottom of my post.

I don't remember exactly where pattern lies, and I don't have my books on me. If anyone remembers please pitch in.

Your metaphor doesn't really work. You are comparing culture to the very nature of these creatures themselves. While certain things are seen as offensive in different cultures, it isn't about offense with the spren. They find it challenging, if not impossible to act outside of their nature. Before you try to tell me I'm wrong, I'm not. I have WoB that spren find it difficult to act outside of its nature. As for Cryptics, as I said in my previous post, it says on the in universe WoR that Cryptics seek to push their Knights towards self awareness, something very much cultivation like. This is done through becoming honest with one self, which is something more related to Honor. So they have a Cultivation like goal with Honorable means. This storeys the theory that Cryptics are a hybrid.

First off, Cryptics, and other spren, ate almost definitly attracted to the potential for the attributes they wish to promote within, not the attributes themselves. I find it strange that you are trying to argue that Shallan of all people is truthful to herself. I also want to point out that Kaladin was going to give up on multiple occasions without prodding from Syl to do otherwise, once when he was going to throw himself into the chasm, another tone when he was going to give up on bridge 4 after surviving the storm, and finally when he was thinking about helping Moash kill Elhokar. He isn't always all about protecting and leading, but his dorm helps him move towards that, just as Cryptics lead their Radiants to be more self aware.

That just isn't the definition of Honor, as I said above we have just need conditioned by society to think of honor as upholding morals. Honor is, an this is from Google not me, to fulfill (an obligation) or keep (an agreement). That agreement can be immoral. Ever heard of honor among thieves? This idea is further supported by the fact that Honor spren can be what we would consider evil.

If you are not making inquiries about the nature of these spren and are just talking about whet they will be called in future books than you should have posted this in the SA forums, me and many others tend to get very nitty and gritty on the nature of the magic in these forums. When you said he 'is' cultivation spren I took that to mean that you believed that to be his very nature.

WoB

INTERVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016

OdysseyCon 2016

BLIGHTSONG

Can Honor spren, or any other type of Knight Radiant spren, be evil?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, because I don't call the shards good and evil. There are no good and evil shards in my opinion, like and so, what evil and what's not evil can totally have spren of honor that you would consider evil. They have free will, but they are much more limited. It is very hard, or impossible, for them to lie but they can be cruel.

TAGS

Spren, honor, knights radiant

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Im on mobile and can't properly format, I will reply in the order that you responded. I would also like to preface this by saying that I don't belive that Cryptics are 100% Cultivation, as you belive that they are 100% Honor based on your above posts. There is obviously mixing, although I think that Cryptics are mostly cultivation. As always, WoB I mention will be at the bottom of my post.

I don't remember exactly where pattern lies, and I don't have my books on me. If anyone remembers please pitch in.

Your metaphor doesn't really work. You are comparing culture to the very nature of these creatures themselves. While certain things are seen as offensive in different cultures, it isn't about offense with the spren. They find it challenging, if not impossible to act outside of their nature. Before you try to tell me I'm wrong, I'm not. I have WoB that spren find it difficult to act outside of its nature. As for Cryptics, as I said in my previous post, it says on the in universe WoR that Cryptics seek to push their Knights towards self awareness, something very much cultivation like. This is done through becoming honest with one self, which is something more related to Honor. So they have a Cultivation like goal with Honorable means. This storeys the theory that Cryptics are a hybrid.

First off, Cryptics, and other spren, ate almost definitly attracted to the potential for the attributes they wish to promote within, not the attributes themselves. I find it strange that you are trying to argue that Shallan of all people is truthful to herself. I also want to point out that Kaladin was going to give up on multiple occasions without prodding from Syl to do otherwise, once when he was going to throw himself into the chasm, another tone when he was going to give up on bridge 4 after surviving the storm, and finally when he was thinking about helping Moash kill Elhokar. He isn't always all about protecting and leading, but his dorm helps him move towards that, just as Cryptics lead their Radiants to be more self aware.

That just isn't the definition of Honor, as I said above we have just need conditioned by society to think of honor as upholding morals. Honor is, an this is from Google not me, to fulfill (an obligation) or keep (an agreement). That agreement can be immoral. Ever heard of honor among thieves? This idea is further supported by the fact that Honor spren can be what we would consider evil.

If you are not making inquiries about the nature of these spren and are just talking about whet they will be called in future books than you should have posted this in the SA forums, me and many others tend to get very nitty and gritty on the nature of the magic in these forums. When you said he 'is' cultivation spren I took that to mean that you believed that to be his very nature.

WoB

INTERVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016

OdysseyCon 2016

BLIGHTSONG

Can Honor spren, or any other type of Knight Radiant spren, be evil?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, because I don't call the shards good and evil. There are no good and evil shards in my opinion, like and so, what evil and what's not evil can totally have spren of honor that you would consider evil. They have free will, but they are much more limited. It is very hard, or impossible, for them to lie but they can be cruel.

TAGS

Spren, honor, knights radiant

Ironically the scene you reference disproves what you state regarding Cryptics. It is challenging for a spren to act outside their nature, but it is possible. The scene you reference where Pattern lies is below:

 

Words of Radiance page 255

"I... Well, it's mostly a figure of speech." Then, before he could ask further, she continued, "And by that I mean something we say to convey an idea or a feeling, but not a literal fact."

Pattern buzzed.

"What does that mean?" Shallan asked, massaging the knobweed in anyway. "When you buzz like that. What are you feeling?"

"Hmmmm.... Excited. Yes. It has been so long since anyone has learned of you and your kind."

Shallan squeezed some more sap onto her toes. "You came to learn? Wait... you're a scholar?"

"Of course. Hmmmm. Why else would I come? I will learn so much before-"

He stopped abruptly.

"Pattern?" she asked. "Before what?"

"A figure of speech." He said it perfectly flatly, absent of tone. he was growing better and better at speaking like a person, and at times he sounded just like one. But now all of the color had gone from his voice.

"You're lying," she accused him, glancing at his pattern on the wall. He had shrunk, growing as small as a fist, half his usual size.

"yes," he said reluctantly

"You're a terrible liar" Shallan said, surprised at the realization.

"Yes."

"But you love lies!"

"So fascinating" he said "you are all so fascinating"

 

So they love lies because as a light casts a shadow, it is the other half of truth. They are scholars. They wish to learn and study more of which they do not know or understand. They are curious how lies can become truths, and truths can become lies. Why would Pattern be so terrible at lying, why would he not understand what lying even is (as he needs to have a figure of speech, and jokes explained to him, and even calls those lies as well) if that was the entire make up of what he is?

Edited by Pathfinder
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Have you read the WoB that was in my post? I'm not the one making the statement, Brandon himself is. How does lying act against a Cryptics nature? In my WoB he was referring to Honor spren specifically in regards to lying, but said that spren as a whole have problems with going against their nature.

I've never said that all Cryptics are made up of are lies. I said that they are attracted to people who lie to themselves because it provides an opportunity to cultivate self honesty within them.

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Have you read the WoB that was in my post? I'm not the one making the statement, Brandon himself is. How does lying act against a Cryptics nature? In my WoB he was referring to Honor spren specifically in regards to lying, but said that spren as a whole have problems with going against their nature.

I've never said that all Cryptics are made up of are lies. I said that they are attracted to people who lie to themselves because it provides an opportunity to cultivate self honesty within them.

I took that WoB as to say it can be hard or impossible to lie. As in for some spren it is hard, for others it is impossible. Problems does not mean all cannot at all. 

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I took that WoB as to say it can be hard or impossible to lie. As in for some spren it is hard, for others it is impossible. Problems does not mean all cannot at all.

The question I asked was about Honor spren, most of what he said was in relation to Honor spren. As the person who asked the question I can assure as to the context.

Edit: I agree that not all spren have difficulty lying, this is most likely because not all spren are of Honor.

Edited by Blightsong
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Your metaphor doesn't really work. You are comparing culture to the very nature of these creatures themselves. While certain things are seen as offensive in different cultures, it isn't about offense with the spren. They find it challenging, if not impossible to act outside of their nature. Before you try to tell me I'm wrong, I'm not. I have WoB that spren find it difficult to act outside of its nature. As for Cryptics, as I said in my previous post, it says on the in universe WoR that Cryptics seek to push their Knights towards self awareness, something very much cultivation like. This is done through becoming honest with one self, which is something more related to Honor. So they have a Cultivation like goal with Honorable means. This storeys the theory that Cryptics are a hybrid.

First of all, I feel you are ignoring a major point I have brought up multiple times. Pattern is not a liespren. He is a cryptic. Calling a Cryptic a liespren is equivalent to calling a group of people a derogatory name. That is not what they are, it is whatt other spren call them. And, let me say it again, being cryptic does not mean lying. Those are not the same thing. Being cryptic is akin to being mysterious.

 

Secondly, I'm likening spren to aons, where over time the aons changed to mean other things, based on perception. We see basically all magic in the cosmere is based on perception. I'm not saying they act outside of their nature, I'm saying, over time, their nature changes. The theory of evolution is a gradual change, so small you couldn't even notice it. If perception changed over time, including their own perceptions, would that not change it too.

 

I think you are missing something here. Yes all the shards follow their own intent, but they don't necessarily invest their own intent. In fact the only shard who does this fully is Endowment, with her Biochromatic breaths. Ruin slightly follows his intent with hemalurgy, but if he followed it fully, wouldn't the power be fully destroyed, i.e. ruined? Preservation doesn't make sense at all, when you burn metals, they are gone, not preserved. Even the given powers aren't preserving, besides the fact that there are multiple seemingly combat oriented powers, the fact that the powers go away would mean not be preserved. Dominion could make sense if you stretch, you have dominion over the Dor, or your powers give you dominion. Point being, investiture doen't always fully match up with the Shard who created it.

 

Finally, by that same reasoning, you could say Honor spren are of Cultivation too, because, by urging you to keep oaths, they are cultivating a sense of honor in you. You could also say that allomancy is of ruin, because aluminum destroys a reserve of power.

 

 

First off, Cryptics, and other spren, ate almost definitly attracted to the potential for the attributes they wish to promote within, not the attributes themselves. I find it strange that you are trying to argue that Shallan of all people is truthful to herself. I also want to point out that Kaladin was going to give up on multiple occasions without prodding from Syl to do otherwise, once when he was going to throw himself into the chasm, another tone when he was going to give up on bridge 4 after surviving the storm, and finally when he was thinking about helping Moash kill Elhokar. He isn't always all about protecting and leading, but his dorm helps him move towards that, just as Cryptics lead their Radiants to be more self aware.

The arguments that you give for Kaladin not following the attributes are because of his depression. Also, even without Syl, he still ended up protecting Elhokar. Also I am going to assume that dorm is an autocorrect, and your not talking about the Bridge Four barracks. Because, if you are, that is a whole other argument. Yes spren do lead the Radiants to become more like their attributes, but the attributes are already there before. I think it is a mix, with the sprouts of those attributes being there, but the spren cultivating those in them.

 

 

That just isn't the definition of Honor, as I said above we have just need conditioned by society to think of honor as upholding morals. Honor is, an this is from Google not me, to fulfill (an obligation) or keep (an agreement). That agreement can be immoral. Ever heard of honor among thieves? This idea is further supported by the fact that Honor spren can be what we would consider evil.

 

My definition was also from Google, by the way. Back to my previous example of the Jews hiding in your attic, and you had promised them you weren't going to tell the Nazis. Using your definition, wouldn't it be honorable to lie to the Nazis?

 

Your metaphor doesn't really work. You are comparing culture to the very nature of these creatures themselves. While certain things are seen as offensive in d

If you are not making inquiries about the nature of these spren and are just talking about whet they will be called in future books than you should have posted this in the SA forums, me and many others tend to get very nitty and gritty on the nature of the magic in these forums. When you said he 'is' cultivation spren I took that to mean that you believed that to be his very nature.

 

I was originally talking about Wyndle's nature, but it has evolved into so much more.

 

 

The question I asked was about Honor spren, most of what he said was in relation to Honor spren. As the person who asked the question I can assure as to the context.

Edit: I agree that not all spren have difficulty lying, this is most likely because not all spren are of Honor.

 

You know what's interesting about this, is wouldn't lightweaving be considered lying? What possibilities are there of lightweaving not being used for lying. I can't think of one, but if you can, I would be happy to hear it. But lightweaving is originally from Honor, unless Cultivation made an Honorblade. I think that it is in the book when it says that honorblades are made from Honor. Unfortunately, I am missing the book, so I can't find the quote. If someone else could find the quote, that would be extremely useful. Point being, I don't think Honor is separate from lying.

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Illusions are by definition deceptive.

 

Not sure you needed to head down the Godwin's Law path, but I suppose an extreme example like that does make the point that lying can be the honorable thing to do. I doubt even Syl would have a problem with that scenario since it is about protecting people that desperately need that protection. Just like how she she doesn't like killing but understands that it is sometimes necessary.

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First of all, I feel you are ignoring a major point I have brought up multiple times. Pattern is not a liespren. He is a cryptic. Calling a Cryptic a liespren is equivalent to calling a group of people a derogatory name. That is not what they are, it is whatt other spren call them. And, let me say it again, being cryptic does not mean lying. Those are not the same thing. Being cryptic is akin to being mysterious.

Secondly, I'm likening spren to aons, where over time the aons changed to mean other things, based on perception. We see basically all magic in the cosmere is based on perception. I'm not saying they act outside of their nature, I'm saying, over time, their nature changes. The theory of evolution is a gradual change, so small you couldn't even notice it. If perception changed over time, including their own perceptions, would that not change it too.

I think you are missing something here. Yes all the shards follow their own intent, but they don't necessarily invest their own intent. In fact the only shard who does this fully is Endowment, with her Biochromatic breaths. Ruin slightly follows his intent with hemalurgy, but if he followed it fully, wouldn't the power be fully destroyed, i.e. ruined? Preservation doesn't make sense at all, when you burn metals, they are gone, not preserved. Even the given powers aren't preserving, besides the fact that there are multiple seemingly combat oriented powers, the fact that the powers go away would mean not be preserved. Dominion could make sense if you stretch, you have dominion over the Dor, or your powers give you dominion. Point being, investiture doen't always fully match up with the Shard who created it.

Finally, by that same reasoning, you could say Honor spren are of Cultivation too, because, by urging you to keep oaths, they are cultivating a sense of honor in you. You could also say that allomancy is of ruin, because aluminum destroys a reserve of power.

The arguments that you give for Kaladin not following the attributes are because of his depression. Also, even without Syl, he still ended up protecting Elhokar. Also I am going to assume that dorm is an autocorrect, and your not talking about the Bridge Four barracks. Because, if you are, that is a whole other argument. Yes spren do lead the Radiants to become more like their attributes, but the attributes are already there before. I think it is a mix, with the sprouts of those attributes being there, but the spren cultivating those in them.

My definition was also from Google, by the way. Back to my previous example of the Jews hiding in your attic, and you had promised them you weren't going to tell the Nazis. Using your definition, wouldn't it be honorable to lie to the Nazis?

I was originally talking about Wyndle's nature, but it has evolved into so much more.

You know what's interesting about this, is wouldn't lightweaving be considered lying? What possibilities are there of lightweaving not being used for lying. I can't think of one, but if you can, I would be happy to hear it. But lightweaving is originally from Honor, unless Cultivation made an Honorblade. I think that it is in the book when it says that honorblades are made from Honor. Unfortunately, I am missing the book, so I can't find the quote. If someone else could find the quote, that would be extremely useful. Point being, I don't think Honor is separate from lying.

All relevant WoB will be down below.

In the paragraph you quote I don't think I typed liespren once. In that last post I shied away from using that term because it is misleading. As previously mentioned, however, the name is most likely irrelevant to the sprens nature anyways.

Yes, spren are personification of human thought, but that doesn't mean they change at all. Emotion spren are not different in different places based on how the culture there perceives that emotion. There had been nothing in the books or in a interview that points towards this idea being correct. I understand if this is your theory on how spren work, but it is purely head cannon, while I'm trying to argue in plain terms with facts, or at least things alluded to in the text. Either way, I highly doubt that a manifestation built from a power greatly opposed to lying could be warped in such away to be able to do an action completely against its nature effortlessly. Not unless Cultivation was inveloved.

All magic systems are not based off of the Shards themselves, they are based off of fundamental laws of the Cosmere and it's planets. How those magic systems are obtained, however, is based off of the Shards. This means that yes, all spren most likely cultivate ideals into their Knights and are attracted to the potential for these ideals. Like I said, does Shallan seem particularly truthful to you? The end goal of truth seems pretty honorable, though, but just the fact that they can act contrary to Honor's intent convinces me that he is part of both cultivation and Honor. It is possible that all end goals include something honarable, however.

It would be honorable to keep your oath in that situation. That is probably a situation where Honorspren would lie. But this has nothing to do with morals, it's about honor. Honorspren CAN do evil things they CAN be evil. I have WoB on this, you can't really argue that point, it basicly proves my definition to be correct in this case. There are probably evil Cryptics who would sell the refugees out.

The surge of transformation is a fundamental law of that planet, with or without Honor and Cultivation. They just choose how these powers are harnessed.

WoB:

INTERVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016

OdysseyCon 2016

BLIGHTSONG

Can Honor spren, or any other type of Knight Radiant spren, be evil?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, because I don't call the shards good and evil. There are no good and evil shards in my opinion, like and so, what evil and what's not evil can totally have spren of honor that you would consider evil. They have free will, but they are much more limited. It is very hard, or impossible, for them to lie but they can be cruel.

TAGS

Spren, honor, knights radiant,

INTERVIEW: Aug 31st, 2011

Reddit AMA 2011 (Verbatim)

ERIC LAKE ()

Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things?

BRANDON SANDERSON

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift—allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

TAGS

mistborn, cosmere,

Edited by Blightsong
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In the paragraph you quote I don't think I typed liespren once. In that last post I shied away from using that term because it is misleading. As previously mentioned, however, the name is most likely irrelevant to the sprens nature anyways.

You did not call them Liespren, but you acted as if lying was their natural nature when we see that it is not. Let's review the evidence. Jasnah brings up the name Liespren, and then immediately corrects that and calls them Cryptics. To advance, a Lightrunner must say truths. We only ever see a Cryptic lie once, and he was terrible at it. You seem to say that because Pattern lied once, he obviously has a nature of lying. Well, by that same logic, shouldn't Syl be a prankspren, or a mockspren, as we see her do both more than once.

 

 

Yes, spren are personification of human thought, but that doesn't mean they change at all. Emotion spren are not different in different places based on how the culture there perceives that emotion. There had been nothing in the books or in a interview that points towards this idea being correct. I understand if this is your theory on how spren work, but it is purely head cannon, while I'm trying to argue in plain terms with facts, or at least things alluded to in the text. Either way, I highly doubt that a manifestation built from a power greatly opposed to lying could be warped in such away to be able to do an action completely against its nature effortlessly. Not unless Cultivation was inveloved.

 

First off, good point with the spren. It is really late right now where I live, and I can't think of a suitable answer right now. Moving on, you accuse me of basing arguments with me own theories while you argue using only facts. But every WoB you have listed only partially supports your claim. Either you didn't give us the full answer, or you are somehow understanding stuff he doesn't say. Finally, where do you get the idea that Honor is fully opposed to lying. Even your definition of honor isn't against lying, it is against breaking oaths. Those are two entirely different things. They have some connections, but it doesn't make them the same thing. For the sake of bringing cheese into this argument, it's like saying that if someone hates cheddar cheese, they hate all cheese.

 

 

The surge of transformation is a fundamental law of that planet, with or without Honor and Cultivation. They just choose how these powers are harnessed.

 

I think you are talking about Illumination here? I think if I was more awake, I could answer this, but my tired brain is telling me to got to slwwp, so I will answer this another time.

 

Thanks for Responding

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You did not call them Liespren, but you acted as if lying was their natural nature when we see that it is not. Let's review the evidence. Jasnah brings up the name Liespren, and then immediately corrects that and calls them Cryptics. To advance, a Lightrunner must say truths. We only ever see a Cryptic lie once, and he was terrible at it. You seem to say that because Pattern lied once, he obviously has a nature of lying. Well, by that same logic, shouldn't Syl be a prankspren, or a mockspren, as we see her do both more than once.

 

 

 

First off, good point with the spren. It is really late right now where I live, and I can't think of a suitable answer right now. Moving on, you accuse me of basing arguments with me own theories while you argue using only facts. But every WoB you have listed only partially supports your claim. Either you didn't give us the full answer, or you are somehow understanding stuff he doesn't say. Finally, where do you get the idea that Honor is fully opposed to lying. Even your definition of honor isn't against lying, it is against breaking oaths. Those are two entirely different things. They have some connections, but it doesn't make them the same thing. For the sake of bringing cheese into this argument, it's like saying that if someone hates cheddar cheese, they hate all cheese.

 

 

 

I think you are talking about Illumination here? I think if I was more awake, I could answer this, but my tired brain is telling me to got to slwwp, so I will answer this another time.

 

Thanks for Responding

I don't think lying is there nature. That doesn't really matter. The thing that matters is the fact that they can lie. The tone he did lie want even a life or death situation, he did it as a human would, when he doesn't want to give a specific bit of information. A spren completely of Honor almost definitly could not do this.

The WoB I am using very much supports my responses where I use them in my arguement. They aren't direct answers, if i had those this discussion would be over.

I actually found a definition of honor is think fits better, I will put it at the end of the post. If truth and honesty aren't a part of the definition of honor than why would Honor spren have a very hard time lying? In your arguement, why would Cryptics be of Honor because of their honesty?

honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions:

I think that that definition, complements my previous one well and rings true in the context of what we have seen so far in WoB and the story.

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If you are honorable you would lie for altruistic reasons. The less honorable, the more for personal gain at the expense of others, conceited reasons, or just for fun become prevalent.

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If you are honorable you would lie for altruistic reasons. The less honorable, the more for personal gain at the expense of others, conceited reasons, or just for fun become prevalent.

I've already argued this point, honor isnt about altruism. Even so, Pattern, in that example, didn't lie for an altruistic reason. He just did it because he didn't want to tell Shallan what he ended up telling her.

As I've said, the fact that Honorspren can be evil proves that Honor isn't about being moral or altruistic.

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Hello Blightsong,

 

A while back you accused me o basing my arguments with my own theories. But, I would like to post something interesting. Here is the complete Google definition of Honor.

 

honour
ˈɒnə/
noun
noun: honor
  1. 1.
    high respect; great esteem.
    "his portrait hangs in the place of honour"
    synonyms: distinction, privilege, glory, tribute, kudos, cachet, prestige, fame, renown, merit,credit, importance, illustriousness, notability; More
     
     
    antonyms: disgrace
    • a person or thing that brings esteem.
      "you are an honour to our profession"
    • a title of respect or form of address given to a circuit judge, a US mayor, and (in Irish or rustic speech) any person of rank.
      noun: His Honour; noun: His Honor; noun: Her Honour; noun: Her Honor; noun: Your Honour; noun: Your Honor
  2. 2.
    the quality of knowing and doing what is morally right.
    "I must as a matter of honour avoid any taint of dishonesty"
    synonyms: integrity, honourableness, honesty, uprightness, ethics, morals, morality, principle,(high) principles, righteousness, rectitude, nobility, high-mindedness, right-mindedness, noble-mindedness; More
     
     
    antonyms: dishonour
  3. 3.
    something regarded as a rare opportunity and bringing pride and pleasure; a privilege.
    "Mrs Young had the honour of being received by the Queen"
    synonyms: privilege, pleasure, pride, satisfaction, joy, compliment, favour, source of pleasure,source of pride
    "Mrs Young had the honour of being received by the Queen"
    antonyms: shame
    • a thing conferred as a distinction, especially an official award for bravery or achievement.
      "the highest military honours"
      synonyms: accolade, award, reward, prize, decoration, distinction, order, title, medal, ribbon,star, laurel, laurel wreath, bay, palm; More
       
       
       
    • a special distinction for proficiency in an examination.
      "she passed with honours"
    • a course of degree studies more specialized than for an ordinary pass.
      noun: honours degree; plural noun: honours degrees; noun: honors degree; plural noun:honors degrees
      "an honours degree in mathematics"
    • GOLF
      the right of driving off first, having won the previous hole.
      "Kyle had the honour at the last hole"
  4. 4.
    BRIDGE
    an ace, king, queen, jack, or ten.
    • possession in one's hand of at least four of the ace, king, queen, jack, and ten of trumps, or of all four aces in no trumps, for which a bonus is scored.
    • (in whist) an ace, king, queen, or jack of trumps.
verb
verb: honor
  1. 1.
    regard with great respect.
    "Joyce has now learned to honour her father's memory"
    synonyms: hold in great respect, hold in high esteem, have a high regard for, esteem, respect,admire, defer to, look up to, think highly of; More
     
     
     
     
    antonyms: dishonour
  2. 2.
    fulfil (an obligation) or keep (an agreement).
    "make sure the franchisees honour the terms of the contract"
    synonyms: fulfil, observe, keep, discharge, implement, perform, execute, effect, obey, heed,follow, carry out, carry through, keep to, abide by, adhere to, comply with, conform to,act in accordance with, be true to, be faithful to, live up to; 
    "make sure the franchisees honour the terms of the contract"
    antonyms: disobey
    • accept (a bill) or pay (a cheque) when due.
      "the bank informed him that the cheque would not be honoured"
      synonyms: cash, accept, take, clear, pass, encash, convert into cash, convert into money
      "the bank informed him that the cheque would not be honoured"
      antonyms: bounce
(By the way, I can put this in a spoiler to make it easier to read, if someone can tell me how to do that. It would also be helpful to know how to put something in a quote box. Thanks.)
 
This has about eight definitions of Honor in it, but you choose to acknowledge only two of them. I am not saying you are definitely wrong, I am saying you are assuming you know which of the definitions Honor definitively is. Unless you have WoB, if so, I would love to see those. Now, I am not saying Honor is an ace, king, queen, jack, or ten. I am just saying you can't assume you know which one it is. Using the books, we could probably show evidences for a lot of these. Also, none of these definitions is inherently against lying. They are against breaking oaths, but not lying.

 

The WoB I am using very much supports my responses where I use them in my arguement. They aren't direct answers, if i had those this discussion would be over.

My point is, you don't know for sure that those mean what you think they do. Sometimes I had trouble finding the connections between the quotes and what you were saying.

 

One last point. The definition you have; honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs or actions, means you have to be wrong in some part of your arguing. You repeatedly proved that honor spren can be cruel. And I totally believe you. You showed WoB that I think proves it completely. But for an honorspren to be cruel, they would have to go against that definition. So, one of three of your points is wrong.

1. Honorspren can be cruel

    (I strongly doubt this one is false based on your evidence)

2.Your most recent definition of Honor

or

3.No spren of honor could ever lie

 

All three of those statements could not stand together. If they are all true, honorspren would have to against the shardic intent. Then, if that is the case, there would be no reason at all that a spren that originally came from Honor would be unable to lie.

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I have been picking the definitions of Honor that I think are supported by the text and different WoB. I've already argued as to why I think those definitions are the correct onesize.

When I think of integrity I think of someone who does not waver or hesitate to act and who has a lot of self respect. It means to have a moral compass that doesn't waver. You can do these things and still be evil. I would day that Taravangian has a lot of integrity, but the things he does are not the most moral.

I still think that lying is against Honor's nature. There would be no reason for Honorspren to find it difficult if not impossible to lie. That is just the one explanation, there would be no other reason for that to be in the book.

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