Renarin love, why?

[James456]

So I've been lurking around looking at some older thread a somthing that has surpried me is the fandom for renarin and the predictions they have for him. These are the thing i remember him doing.

The chasmfiend hunt. Lets set the stage. Three people  with shardblades and plate are fighting a giant monster two of them would be dead with out there plate a whole team of trained spearmen have just been destroyed. (a spear is a much better weapon then a sword in most cases) This is where Renarin comes riding in with no armour no training and just a sword. What does he think he's going to do. Some call this brave I think it is foolish, impulsive, and selfish.

Why is he selfish because he doesn't think of the danger he would be putting his family in by making them watch out. For him while he tries  to prove himself. It's impulsive because he runs in without thinking of what he'll do or the consequences and foolish because he can't do anything useful there anyways.

2. The plateau run

Adolin leads renarin and some men to assist one of the high princes on a plateau run. When they get there Adolin sees that the men there are struggling. So he goes off to help their shardbearer push the parshendi back saving countless lives and winning  the day if not the gemheart. Unfortunately we're not here to talk about how great Adolin is but to talk about whu renairin is not. So while Adolin is saving lives renairin sees some beleaguered men and run over to help once there he freezes and has to be brought back to safety. Think of the relief those soldiers must have felt when a shardbearer showed up and imagine there surprise when he does nothing but run away that would probably kick there feet out from under them. I'd be surprised if a bunch of them didn't let their guard down for a minute when he showed up and then got killed for it. Another disastrous move made because he had a second of bravery but nothing to back it up with.

3. The duel

Renairin's shining moment in my opinion. The problem is that he falls flat here as well. Lets look at his situation. He has no plate for protection, hardly training with a blade he can't even stomach holding. What does he expect to accomplish. Not much hopefully because that's what he does. By the time he get into the arena Adolin's back is to the wall. Leaving room for only three angles of attack front, right, and left so one of the four whoud be in reserve anyway. Renarin distracts this guy for all of thirty seconds with a couple clumsy parries before falling to his knees. he is then used against Adolin. 

What he should have done is given the blade to someone competent Dalinar, a bridgeman, a squire, a chamber maid, or a wet paper bag. I would vote Dalinar. Between him Kalidin and Adolin they would have quickly wiped the floor with the four.

4.The end game

Lets do a compare and contrast here.

Shallan: has to find the oathgate and figure out how it works on a tight schedule in order to save countless lives. While people question her (the old lady pattern makes fun of ) and babble incoherently (renarin) plus other distractions.

Dalinar: Generals the army. Leads a rescue mission  to save a group of soldiers. Take a wound fights with a psychopathic super powered assassin and more like dealing with the other highprincess.

Kalidin: drags a drunk, bleeding, nearly unconscious king away from a assassination plot while dealing with a bleeding, messed up leg and depression brought by the weeping. Then he is betrayed by his his best(second best?) friend takes a shard powered punch to the chest and keeps on trying to help the king. Even though he knows there's no hope.

Adolin:  leads an attack of a plateau. loses his horse. (is there a special bond between the god horses and their rider) Remembers the conversation with Shallan and comes up with the plan to cut through the building basically wining his plateau. Then he fight a stormform shardbearer who must be much stronger more agile and have better endurance then warform who are still better then humans. Then he runs into szeth fets gis chull kicked then takes his armour off so he can keep fighting.

That's not even mentioning the common men who are fighting a super strong and fast monster who can throw lighting. Or roinin the cowardly high prince who attempts to fight the assassin. 

Renarin: Whines , incites panic, and distracts Shallen who is trying to figure out how the oathgate works.

Compare renarin to the rest of them. He gives up while the rest of them keep fighting, keep trying and refuse to accept defeat. While he babbles incoherently.

conclusion

I don't know why renarin has fans. I don't know why people think he' going to be a great warrior or why they ship him with Shallan or Kalidin. I don't know why they think he'll accomplish anything of note when he has proven time and again that he will fail that he doesn't have what it takes to deal with the pressure or the stress of being important

[Yata]

I am not a Renarin's fan but in the end He had reason for his actions.

 

He is an outcast for his own Society, with some mental difficoult and then He began to change, to gain power forbitten by his own religion.

 

During the Duel he runs to help his brother but understimates the Shardblade's mental Scream (He would probably made something better, not enough but better) and in the Storm he saw the End of Everybody's Life (it is something that probably will put everybody to scream/cry).

 

This isn't enough to give him the "best character" prize but in the end until we will see his PoV and what happened to him in those events I think we may say that the Story give him some really bad cards to play.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Yata

[Rasarr]

I admit I like the character, though it's probably not all that easy to explain why. Like Yata says, he gets many points in Underdog competition.

• He has this cool, charming brother who overshadows him and who seems to excel at nearly everything he takes up (we know Adolin isn't all he's advertised to be, but he doesn't!)
• He has this cool, badass father who, while not a picture of perfection, has the reputation of being the baddest moth***er this side of Samuel L. Jackson and can live up to it
• He himself can't really live up to them, and he's been told all his life that he'll probably never be able to
• He's considered to be best-suited to join the ardentia, which is a highly unmanly job in a land where you should be the manly man
• He wears glasses. Those are some really serious Underdog Points right there!
• When he has the chance to rise and be a badass like the rest of his family (even Elokhar gets to fight, for Almighty's sake!), he discovers that his blade is screaming at him, making him pretty much unable to be much of a badass
• He gets the ability to foresee the future in a land where seeing the future = you are possessed by the Devil

So in other words, he has a lot stacked against him, and people love the underdog. 

 

For other, his personality, and even appearance, isn't very specified. I mean, we know enough of the bare bones to get what we have now, but we don't really know much about him, meaning we can fill in the gaps with what we expect him to be. He's also mysterious, and has unusual powers, which are obviously torturing him (BTW, the scene you describe as him distracting Shallan, I read it kind of differently. He was having a freakout and obviously attempting to impart important information, while she was acting all "what a freak!" She's the one to speak, really! I don't hate her, but it's as if she momentarily forgot there could be other people with divine mystic powers out there.)

 

He's a nice guy, too. He doesn't seem to be jealous of his brother, he actively supports Adolin, he tries his best to warn about Desolation without revealing himself. He asks to be a grunt in Bridge Four, and has nothing against washing dishes if that's part of the job. How many lighteyes do you imagine washing dishes on orders of a darkeyes? 

 

He's not stupid, either. In fact, he sometimes comes across as more level-headed than Adolin, and has moments of being really thoughtful and giving good advice (he was the one to notice that if Dalinar has visions of the past, they could be proveable).

 

And finally, he's trying, trying really hard to do what has to be done, even flying in the face of known facts and assumptions. He tries so hard, I can't help but feel sympathy for him. He does try to pass information about the upcoming Desolation, even though he fears being found out. He tries to help his family even though he has no training and a blade that screams at him any time he tries to use it. He tries to save his brother's life even though he has no Plate, he's undertrained and the aforementioned screaming blade issue. Just think of what happened when Relis heard that scream for a second! He panicked and fled the scene of events, while Renarin didn't let out as much as a squawk. 

 

So yeah, I think he is likeable. He has this right blend of underdogness, mysteriousness and determination to do the right thing to make him endearing.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Rasarr

[Argel]

Also, isn't one of the back five books going to be about Renarin? It could be a very tragic book, but I think most of us are leaning towards better things are coming for him. If nothing else, he's finally with people he can talk with about his powers, at least if some stick around or team up. Don't forget that Shallon has a copy of Words of Radiance. And I'm guessing Jasnah will run into him at some point. Considering SA3 is about Dalinar, I expect Renarin will get some more time in the spotlight. Anyway, my main point is if a book is going to focus on him, we can expect more than just the failures we have seen. If nothing else, he may finalyl come to accept who he is. Edit: He's also got the socially awkward nerd/geek vibe going that I am sure resonates with many of Brandon's fanbase.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Argel

[Nyali]

I can't speak for other people, but personally, I am extremely fond of the fact that Brandon wrote a character like Renarin. There aren't enough characters with mental disorders like epilepsy, or characters on the Autism Spectrum, in fantasy. Having a seizure disorder myself (narcolepsy), Renarin entering stressful and dangerous situations despite knowing he could have a seizure at any time is definitely something that speaks to me, something I'm not terribly used to from fantasy literature.

 

I also have a ton of friends on the Spectrum, and I find that Renarin's social difficulties feel genuine, not exaggerated like you often see in fiction by writers who have no idea what it's like to be that way, or focused on in a way that emphasizes it as weird and inhuman. Honestly, I feel that the autistic character in Elantris is the latter, and the way the autism was used as a plot device made me a bit uncomfortable when reading it. I feel that the difference between the presentation in Elantris and in The Stormlight Archive shows that Brandon is dedicated to learning how to write characters who are very different from himself, and succeeding at it. It makes me hopeful that when something like Drehy's sexual orientation is brought up, it's done in a way that's accepting and realistic rather than a caricature despite Brandon's beliefs and low exposure to the LGBT community. Similar to how either Brandon or Robert Jordan handled it with a couple minor characters near the end of the Wheel of Time.

 

 

So, I'm really happy that Renarin exists and was written the way he was. All that said, he isn't my favorite character by a long shot. That would definitely be Shallan, and then a whole parade of other characters before Renarin (including Lift, Pattern, Syl, Zahel, Wit, Eshonai, Rock, The Lopen, Dalinar, Jasnah, Zahel's old friend, etc)

[Yata]

 

I feel that the autistic character in Elantris is the latter, and the way the autism was used as a plot device made me a bit uncomfortable when reading it. I feel that the difference between the presentation in Elantris and in The Stormlight Archive shows that Brandon is dedicated to learning how to write characters who are very different from himself, and succeeding at it.

But that character have also another great problem (i will not say more because it's spoiler)... Probably in that case both factors made a character like that (and He was far in the Spectrum than Renarin in the beginning)

[James456]

Rasarr good point about the underdog drawing in fans that completely sliped my mind. Witch is wierd considering the teams I support. The problem near the end of the books is the information he's giving it not helpful to them at the moment and in a life or death situation you don't want excess info. It's the wrong time and place for it.

Renarin being more level-headed then Adolin or calm and calculating (as someone else said)is untrue though.the first three points I made show that he is as impulsive as his brother if not more so Adolin at least stands a chance when he does somthing (like killing sadeas renarin would have died had he tried)

[Rasarr]

Renarin being more level-headed then Adolin or calm and calculating (as someone else said)is untrue though.the first three points I made show that he is as impulsive as his brother if not more so Adolin at least stands a chance when he does somthing (like killing sadeas renarin would have died had he tried)

 

Hm, I would say this comes rather from the desire to prove himself as the Manly Man he's supposed to be as an Alethi. But consider other situations in which proving his worth isn't on the line: 

• There are moments when Sadeas is trying to rile Adolin up, and it's Renarin who calms his brother down
• Renarin is the one to figure out a way to prove Dalinar's visions while others are still in the "aaah, visions!" phase of dealing with the problem
• When, right before the four-on-one duel, Adolin discovers he forgot his mother's chain, Renarin again is the one to stay calm, while you can see Adolin getting extremely upset, and send for the chain, likely to calm his brother down even though he knows the servant won't make it back in time
• While we see Adolin extremly moved by Szeth's first attack, we get nothing of the sort from Renarin
• Despite being wracked by the visions, he has enough presence of mind to figure out a way to pass the information on to his father without incriminating himself, and orchestrate everything to make it seem like Dalinar was the one to do it

At contrary, Adolin is level-headed in combat or duel, but the moment he gets off the field, he clearly has problems dealing with his emotions. I mean - Adolin broke down and attacked Sadeas. Renarin wouldn't do that. Renarin would be more likely to either tell Dalinar about it or figure out a way to deal with things move covertly, like he did with the visions. Renarin's one blind spot in his aura of calm is this need to prove himself to his family. Which I think makes him more likeable, because he has a goal he really strives for. I'm guessing he'd have less fans if he just calmly accepted his fate in life and was a calm and ever-serene "calm brother" to Adolin's "hot-head brother". It helps humanize him.

 

And frankly, I don't think it's fair to blame Renarin for distracting Shallan by the end of WoR. He clearly can't control the visions, and they might be source of this "blood sickness" of his - it's like an epileptic trying to stop having a seizure. I admit I'm not a doctor, but I don't think that's possible.

[Arcoss]

Also, isn't one of the back five books going to be about Renarin? It could be a very tragic book, but I think most of us are leaning towards better things are coming for him. If nothing else, he's finally with people he can talk with about his powers, at least if some stick around or team up. Don't forget that Shallon has a copy of Words of Radiance. And I'm guessing Jasnah will run into him at some point. Considering SA3 is about Dalinar, I expect Renarin will get some more time in the spotlight. Anyway, my main point is if a book is going to focus on him, we can expect more than just the failures we have seen. If nothing else, he may finalyl come to accept who he is. Edit: He's also got the socially awkward nerd/geek vibe going that I am sure resonates with many of Brandon's fanbase.

 

Pretty much this, a lot of geeks(incluiding myself) are on the autism spectrum and have difficulties with social interactions so we find him easy to identify with

[The Ninja Yodeler]

1. You can say you don't think him running in unprotected and untrained is brave. But you can't assume he doesn't know that he would be making the battle more difficult because of his intervention . He could have cycled through all of the things you stated, and just cast them aside because his family was in mortal danger. He probably knew he would be only the tiniest of distractions, if that, but even that would be better than sitting there watching his family die.

2. If you recall, Renarins freezing up was due to the screaming in his head when he touches his shardblade. The fact that he went into battle in the first place, knowing what he was going to hear and feel, shows the quality of person he is.

3. Again, you are completely discarding the fact that he already knows all of this about himself, and still acts, throwing himself into situations he knows he can't win. And again, the screaming in his head is a pretty big distraction(that he, unlike most others, attempts to overcome even though he knows what will happen when he summons the blade), as well as severely unnerving.

4. Again, you take everything he does and try to make it seem as if he has absolutely no reason to behave the way he does. On the contrary, when him and Shallan are in the chamber, Ranarin isn't just wetting his pants because he's afraid of the noise and fighting and so on. He is seeing the Everstorm arrive in his mind. He's seeing the death and destruction it will cause. I understand why you try to compare him to other "stronger" characters, but you have to remember, all of the examples you gave(Dalinar, Shallan, etc.), you get in depth POV chapters from these characters. You get to at least have a chance of understanding their thought process. Of understanding why they make the decisions they make. You get none of these for Ranarin. So basically your view of him is tainted by the view the other characters have of him. Dalinar sees him as weak. Adolin sees him as needing to be protected. Shallan sees him as weird and annoying. Kaladin sees him as strange. All of these viewpoints effect the way Ranarin is portrayed. But we never get to see inside Renarins head. To see how his Radiancy(or transformation into a Radiant) effects him.

All in all, I'm not really a Ranarin fan, but I did see some major holes in your post. Your assessment for Ranarin, I think, is in passing and far too shallow.

*Edit: Spelling

Edited May 4, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler

[soulcastJam]

Be prepared for an essay by FeatherWriter.  She's very protective of Renarin... 

[James456]

Be prepared for an essay by FeatherWriter. She's very protective of Renarin...

im sure she respects others opinions

[Khyrindor]

im sure she respects others opinions

 

She does, but they don't call her the Fandom Monster for nothing... 

[maxal]

Hm, I would say this comes rather from the desire to prove himself as the Manly Man he's supposed to be as an Alethi. But consider other situations in which proving his worth isn't on the line: 

• There are moments when Sadeas is trying to rile Adolin up, and it's Renarin who calms his brother down
• Renarin is the one to figure out a way to prove Dalinar's visions while others are still in the "aaah, visions!" phase of dealing with the problem
• When, right before the four-on-one duel, Adolin discovers he forgot his mother's chain, Renarin again is the one to stay calm, while you can see Adolin getting extremely upset, and send for the chain, likely to calm his brother down even though he knows the servant won't make it back in time
• While we see Adolin extremly moved by Szeth's first attack, we get nothing of the sort from Renarin
• Despite being wracked by the visions, he has enough presence of mind to figure out a way to pass the information on to his father without incriminating himself, and orchestrate everything to make it seem like Dalinar was the one to do it

At contrary, Adolin is level-headed in combat or duel, but the moment he gets off the field, he clearly has problems dealing with his emotions. I mean - Adolin broke down and attacked Sadeas. Renarin wouldn't do that. Renarin would be more likely to either tell Dalinar about it or figure out a way to deal with things move covertly, like he did with the visions. Renarin's one blind spot in his aura of calm is this need to prove himself to his family. Which I think makes him more likeable, because he has a goal he really strives for. I'm guessing he'd have less fans if he just calmly accepted his fate in life and was a calm and ever-serene "calm brother" to Adolin's "hot-head brother". It helps humanize him.

 

And frankly, I don't think it's fair to blame Renarin for distracting Shallan by the end of WoR. He clearly can't control the visions, and they might be source of this "blood sickness" of his - it's like an epileptic trying to stop having a seizure. I admit I'm not a doctor, but I don't think that's possible.

 

I do not have the time to write anything lengthy at the moment, but I wanted to say this was a very good post.

 

I absolutely agree one of Renarin's quality is his ability to remain level-headed in the face of adversity. He has spend a lifetime being forced to deal with undesired unexpected situations: he has come across as very adaptable. He is not unsettled by change, he even yearns for it. His weak point is his desire to feel useful and his tunnel vision stating the only possible path towards achieving his goals passes through armed combat. He has yet to acknowledge how useful he actually is in helping his "perfect supposedly superior" brother manage his emotions and his anxiety. 

 

I do not read Renarin as impulsive, but as eager: eager to find his use and being raised as he was, he can't figure out a way other than jumping into the melee, hoping to make a difference. In the chasmfiend hunt, Renarin did not come across as emotionally disturbed, he very calmly asked Dalinar if he needed assistance: he wanted to help and the fact a giant creature was smashing soldiers around didn't bother him. 

 

Adolin, on the reverse, is often unsettled. As soon as he is forced to live through the unexpected, the unplanned, as soon as he doesn't have a precise script to follow: he starts to lose it. The emotion generating machine puts itself in full gear and he starts to act irrationally. WoR highlighted how little control he had over this aspect of his personality. Fights, battles, duels, these are Adolin's control environment: the ones he has been trained since early childhood to evolve in. As a result, when he is inside his controlled environment, Adolin is able to keep his emotions to the minimum and even then... He does lose it against Salinor early in WoR. He does panic in the 4 on 1 duel. 

 

Kaladin is never seen to panic, no matter what is thrown at him and... well Renarin neither is not panicking. He is disturbed over hearing the screams in his head and likely beats himself up for it as he probably sees it as yet another "problem" with himself. His tears mostly are of frustration for not being able to be useful, for not being able to voice his thoughts, for falling once again at doing something worthy of mention, but I do not read them as tears of fear or panic. The unlocking of the Oathgate does feature Renarin having what is akin to a panic attack or a mental crisis of sorts: this is understandable considering he saw the whole army would die and he was, yet again, helpless to do anything useful. In comparison, Adolin's threshold to start to lose it is much, much, much lower. Had Adolin have the visions, he would have start panicking and acting erratically in Chapter 7.

 

My reading thus is Renarin is the more stable, level-headed, thoughtful brother while Adolin is the unstable, emotional and naturally anxious one. The problem is Adolin is very good at sports and athletic activities which gives him instant gratification while Renarin is the one who has yet to see all the great things he is currently doing.

[AerionBFII]

What? Your surprised the underdog has major support? Id like him just for being a second son/underdog and despite being seen as an invalid by every Sword swinging literate thug by which i mean Alethi men. Fully supports his brother Adolin without resenting him his natural talent or his good looks, that shows remarkable character to do that. He doesn't want to be famous or crave power but just be useful to his father and brother. the scene where i really grew to love him is the epiphany Dalinar has of him:

 

 

“You are right, of course, Father,” Renarin said. “I am not the first hero’s son to be born without any talent for warfare. The others all got along. So shall I. Likely I will end up as citylord of a small town. Assuming I don’t tuck myself away in the devotaries.” The boy’s eyes turned forward.

I still think of him as “the boy,” Dalinar thought. Even though he’s now in his twentieth year. Wit had been right. Dalinar underestimated Renarin. How would I react, if I were forbidden to fight? Kept back with the women and the merchants?

Dalinar would have been bitter, particularly against Adolin. In fact, Dalinar had often been envious of Gavilar during their boyhood. Renarin, however, was Adolin’s greatest supporter. He all but worshipped his elder brother. And he was brave enough to dash heedless into the middle of a battlefield where a nightmare creature was smashing spearmen and tossing aside Shardbearers.

 

 

This is probably where my pity turned to respect in regards to Renarin, he has strength of character, loyalty, willingness to learn and be taught and he has plenty of untapped potential. 

[maxal]

What? Your surprised the underdog has major support? Id like him just for being a second son/underdog and despite being seen as an invalid by every Sword swinging literate thug by which i mean Alethi men.

 

I wanted to answer to this part only, about him being the second under-dog. I would like to point that while the under-dog trope is heavily prevalent into fantasy books, it does not appeal to every reader. It has been over-used and some of us do yearn for more diverse characters into the stories we love. Now I am not saying this is the case for the initiator of this thread, but I wanted to point out the fact Renarin indeed being an under-dog isn't a characteristic which naturally appeals to all readers.

 

For my part, my personal preference of Adolin over Kaladin or Renarin does indicate a general tiredness over reading solely about under-dogs. I try to judge characters as fairly as possible and Renarin certainly doesn't deserve the bashing he receives in the early post, but I can understand where the initiator is coming from.

 

I also wouldn't call Renarin's support major. He has his fans, this is true, but he probably has just as many detractors. He is a hard character to understand for certain readers: it is either you feel sympathetic to him or you feel annoyed with him. If you naturally react negatively to his character, on a first read, it can be difficult to change your perception. 

 

Posts like this are opportunity to help the initiator get a better more complete view of Renarin as a character so he can learn how to appreciate him better. Renarin will be a major character someday, it is sad not to enjoy one of the major character, a feeling I know all too well. Sadly.

[Argel]

I wish Brandon would give us a Renarin POV short story in Arcana Unbound. We will onyl know so much about him till we have some POVs.

[maxal]

I wish Brandon would give us a Renarin POV short story in Arcana Unbound. We will onyl know so much about him till we have some POVs.

 

I wish Brandon was giving us another story which we are unlikely to read. Renarin will have his time to shine, it is just planned to happen in several years from now.

[AerionBFII]

I wanted to answer to this part only, about him being the second under-dog. I would like to point that while the under-dog trope is heavily prevalent into fantasy books, it does not appeal to every reader. It has been over-used and some of us do yearn for more diverse characters into the stories we love. Now I am not saying this is the case for the initiator of this thread, but I wanted to point out the fact Renarin indeed being an under-dog isn't a characteristic which naturally appeals to all readers.

 

For my part, my personal preference of Adolin over Kaladin or Renarin does indicate a general tiredness over reading solely about under-dogs. I try to judge characters as fairly as possible and Renarin certainly doesn't deserve the bashing he receives in the early post, but I can understand where the initiator is coming from.

 

I also wouldn't call Renarin's support major. He has his fans, this is true, but he probably has just as many detractors. He is a hard character to understand for certain readers: it is either you feel sympathetic to him or you feel annoyed with him. If you naturally react negatively to his character, on a first read, it can be difficult to change your perception. 

 

Posts like this are opportunity to help the initiator get a better more complete view of Renarin as a character so he can learn how to appreciate him better. Renarin will be a major character someday, it is sad not to enjoy one of the major character, a feeling I know all too well. Sadly.

I totally get that not everybody enjoys the same thing and i respect other peoples opinions, different character traits appeal to different people. I understand that but the Underdog theme is still going strong precisely because it is so popular and so many people do still enjoy it and it may not appeal to you but it does appeal to a wide audience. 

 

Your personal preference towards Adolin over Kaladin and Renarin is as you say your own personal preference but not a general one. I also try my best to understand characters and place myself in their shoes but every character has supporters and haters Shallan and Szeth for example seem to face the worst of it. I personally have mostly seen support for Renarin over the negative bashing. What appeals to me about Renarin is as i have said his strength of character, his loyalty to his family and desire to be helpful to them.

 

Excited for Arcana Unbound to be released.... Soon My Precious..   

[maxal]

I totally get that not everybody enjoys the same thing and i respect other peoples opinions, different character traits appeal to different people. I understand that but the Underdog theme is still going strong precisely because it is so popular and so many people do still enjoy it and it may not appeal to you but it does appeal to a wide audience. 

 

Your personal preference towards Adolin over Kaladin and Renarin is as you say your own personal preference but not a general one. I also try my best to understand characters and place myself in their shoes but every character has supporters and haters Shallan and Szeth for example seem to face the worst of it. I personally have mostly seen support for Renarin over the negative bashing. What appeals to me about Renarin is as i have said his strength of character, his loyalty to his family and desire to be helpful to them.

 

Excited for Arcana Unbound to be released.... Soon My Precious..   

 

I didn't mean to say nobody enjoys the under-dog trope, but quite seriously there is a growing number of readers who are starting to wish for writers to expand on other tropes. What is popular tends to be what popular culture has to offer: right it is all about under-dogs, but just as any trend, it is starting to feel old. The under-dog is basically a larger theme trope which enclose your basic farm-boy with a sword, a seemingly unimportant character who becomes great because reasons. If you go on Reddit, you are going to find a lot of people yearning for other kind of stories... Renarin is a very classic tale: weak sickly boy who is granted super-powers by virtue of being weak and sickly. Well, not exactly in these terms: I am over simplifying it, but this is how he sounds to several readers. How many "Why did Renarin get a Nahel bond" or "Did you feel it came out of nowhere?" threads over the web? Several. Not necessarily here, but elsewhere, it happens on a regular basis.

 

I never said my own preference was a general one. Adolin certainly isn't a more popular character than Kaladin, but he probably is more popular than Renarin. On places such as Tor.com or Reddit, Adolin garners much more support than Renarin who tends to attract negative posts. Now, of course, each negative post is counter-acted by positive ones from readers who do try to understand all characters, even those they do not prefer, but the fact remains new posts on his subject tend to be negative or misunderstanding, if I may say so. I have written negative posts over Renarin in the past. I have since then tried to make a huge effort to understand the character better and, more importantly, to judge him fairly.

 

How many "Why do people love Renarin" threads have we had? A few of those, this is the second major one I remember. It tells me he isn't a character the majority of readers will genuinely like nor latch to: he speaks positively to several readers, this is true, but the majority need to make an additional effort to understand him or so is my perception.

 

Anyway my whole point in the previous post was to say him being an under-dog wasn't a defacto reason for people to like him. Reasons why we prefer a character over another often are very personal.

[FeatherWriter]

On 5/4/2016 at 1:38 PM, soulcastJam said:

Be prepared for an essay by FeatherWriter.  She's very protective of Renarin... 

*takes a deep breath*

Alright so my thing with Renarin is, A) he became my fave character from just Way of Kings because who he is and his struggles are ones that really resonate with me. Words of Radiance then took all of those things and turned them up to 11 and now I melt into a sobbing puddle of Renarin emotions every time I think about it too much. True, he's not often in the spotlight, and if you're not paying attention to him, he can be easy to dismiss, or worse, misinterpret his intentions. But when you look closer (or, like me, dedicate hours upon hours to every tiny thing he has ever done) there's an incredible person behind the actions.

I've seen people say he's reckless or foolhardy, and they seem to read it as kind of a selfish desire to prove himself while putting other people in danger because he's not competent enough to pull it off. Yet, I see almost the opposite. Renarin, as I read him, is an exceptionally selfless character and one who thinks (quite tragically) very little of his worth. Renarin doesn't rush into danger because he wants to be a star, he rushes in because he cares deeply for others and wants, just once in his life, to feel like he contributed something. He sees himself as worthless, a drain on everyone's time, and thinks he'd be better off dying in defense of those he cares about. He thinks if he could just do something worthwhile, his life would be a small price to pay.

Of course, his father and brother, who love him quite dearly, worry for him when he does this sort of thing, because they don't see him as worthless at all (awwwww). He and Dalinar have a conversation that breaks my heart about this, and it's obvious to me how little Renarin values his life. He can't see that he deserves to be cared for, since he 'can't contribute.'

Quote

“You realize that you shouldn’t have rushed into battle as you did,” Dalinar said sternly. “That chasmfiend could have killed you.”
“What would you have done, Father, if it had been me in danger?”
“I don’t fault your bravery; I fault your wisdom. What if you’d had one of your fits?”
“Then perhaps the monster would have swept me off the plateau,” Renarin said bitterly, “and I would no longer be such a useless drain on everyone’s time.”
“Don’t say such things! Not even in jest.”
“Was it jest? Father, I can’t fight.”
“Fighting is not the only thing of value a man can do.”

- WoK, Ch. 18

(Bolding mine. Notable as the exact moment my heart shatters.) 

So that whole thing won me over to his side very strongly in the first book. Then comes everything in Words of Radiance regarding his visions. He thinks he's going mad, he thinks he's committing blasphemies against his will in seeing the future. He's terrified and he can't tell anyone, because future sight is "of the Voidbringers," so he does everything he can to make sure no one ever catches him in the midst of a vision. His Shardblade screams at him and he doesn't know why, yet he summons it and just tries to pretend that everything's normal because he's surely petrified what would happen if anybody found out.

Meanwhile, he joins Bridge Four, and despite the fact that he's a lighteyed prince, he happily does menial work and drills and wears his lowborn spearman uniform with pride, because at least it's something he can do. He has such a desperate need to be useful that even being assigned to do dishes is something that makes him happy. This boy, he breaks my heart, it's too adorable. He's calm and respectful around the members of Bridge Four and starts to find a place with them. Kaladin worries that he's going to be a "lighteyed headache," another stuck-up princeling, but Renarin is anything but.

And as for the end, I've got some theories regarding what exactly is happening with Renarin's visions, but if there's one thing I can say, it's that when Renarin goes into those visions, he's not in control of himself. Actually got confirmed Word of Brandon on that one. It just makes sense. If he's scared of being discovered, why would he choose to carve obvious symbols where others could find them? If he's ashamed of his lack of Alethi masculinity, why would he willingly turn to a feminine act of expression like writing?

Answer: He wouldn't and he didn't. He was compelled to do so, not in control of himself as the visions took hold.

So Renarin in the end of the climax is not him whining and uselessly giving up (though Shallan seems to see it as such). No, Renarin in the climax of Words of Radiance is him undergoing a horrifying ordeal as the Everstorm rips his free will away from him, causing him to reveal the fact that blasphemously he sees the future to those around him, as he screams and collapses to the floor, hands frantically scratching out symbols with a will of their own. As his control over his body is taken from him, he's also inundated with visions of doom and, what I assume are, the Everstorm bringing about the end of all things. 

TL;DR: All together? To me, Renarin is a character who undergoes great difficulties and hardship, an outcast from his society who wants desperately to fit in, a young man burdened with a terrible secret that his beliefs tell him is the wickedest of all sin, someone who would give his life in an instant if he thought it would give even the smallest bit of aid to those he loves. And despite all the things he deals with, he is a person who is kind and humble, brave in the face of a multitude of fears, and exceptionally clever and intelligent, even if he can't see it himself. 

For those reasons, and many others I haven't even touched upon here, he is my favorite character in anything of all time, and I would be hard-pressed to find someone I care about more. 

On 5/4/2016 at 3:08 PM, Khyrindor said:

She does, but they don't call her the Fandom Monster for nothing... 

I'm only monstrous in my fanfics, Khyrindor. Speaking of which... July is swiftly approaching. Muahahaha.

On 5/7/2016 at 6:52 PM, Argel said:

I wish Brandon would give us a Renarin POV short story in Arcana Unbound. We will onyl know so much about him till we have some POVs.

I would sell my soul, firstborn child, and like... at least $20 for Renarin point-of-view. BRANDON PLEASE. I BEG OF YOU.

[Jondesu]

That's an amazingly well written version of my thoughts on Renarin, FeatherWriter. Not that I'd figured out all the details, but you explained why I like him. I identify with and like Kaladin more in most ways, but that quote of him saying it would have been better for the monster to kill him? I've been there (not in a chasmfiend fight, but in my thoughts). My family would be better off without me, I've thought many times. I can totally understand him rushing in and risking his life without thought for the concerns of others about his life; it's worthless in his view, and he thinks others must see him as worthless as well, even when they tell him otherwise.

jW

[+hwiles]

4 hours ago, FeatherWriter said:

 

TL;DR: All together? To me, Renarin is a character who undergoes great difficulties and hardship, an outcast from his society who wants desperately to fit in, a young man burdened with a terrible secret that his beliefs tell him is the wickedest of all sin, someone who would give his life in an instant if he thought it would give even the smallest bit of aid to those he loves. And despite all the things he deals with, he is a person who is kind and humble, brave in the face of a multitude of fears, and exceptionally clever and intelligent, even if he can't see it himself. 

For those reasons, and many others I haven't even touched upon here, he is my favorite character in anything of all time, and I would be hard-pressed to find someone I care about more. 

 

FeatherWriter,

Your dedication is inspiring and your words compelling.  The meta-thinking and justification behind Renarin's actions are both deep and intellectual and the character himself is tailored to appeal to a subset of fans who are often misrepresented when they are represented at all.

 

That said, I think James456 has articulately identified a whole host of legitimate grievances other characters in the Cosmere should, and do, hold against Renarin.  The quick-and-dirty of it is that Renarin is a little bit more of a burden than a boon most of the time and other characters, rightly so, have a tendency to not like him.  He's got potential, and I fully expect him to shine in the future, but the fact is that he's got some serious catching up to do, and until he does, he's going to have to pay his dues and deal with a little hate, pity, and misunderstanding.

 

Honestly, good show to you both, a fine discussion of points and counterpoints if ever I've seen one.

[youperguy2]

For me it as simple as this; "Four!"

 

He is one of 4 members of the Knights Radiant. (6 if you count Lift and Jasnah)

 

Renarin is a super hero. One of the interesting twists of Stromlight Archive is that it is Renarin is the Radiant and Adolin is NOT. The brother dynamic will be interesting going forward. Renarin has always supported Adolin. Will Adolin support Renarin now that the situation has turned? 

 

Can Adolin deal with his younger weaker brother having powers, ability, and rank higher than his own? Should be a lot of fun. 

 

 

 

[Argel]

I have not idea what to expect from Adolin, with Sadeas murder and the end of the world upon them. Renarin may end up supporting his brother, but in different ways than before.