The Wheel of Time adaptation

[DSC01 he/him]

Well, it's not exactly a wealth of news, but it is very encouraging (especially after the travesty of that so-called pilot with Billy Zane):

https://plus.google.com/u/0/103674399065634804648/posts/1aeEKJiqdeF

[The Invested Beard]

Should be interesting to see how this is handled. Hoping it's with respect and reverence.

[Alfa he/him]

Should be interesting to see how this is handled. Hoping it's with respect and reverence.

 

Difficult to imagine a TV show could handle all 14(?) books, even if they'll cut out most of the so-called "boring" parts.

[Pagerunner he/him]

Difficult to imagine a TV show could handle all 14(?) books, even if they'll cut out most of the so-called "boring" parts.

 

I think, as long as they didn't try to serialize the show (a.k.a. standalone episodes), they could get away with sticking to the major points, possibly reshuffling them. Here's what I would think would be a decent plan for 4 seasons of 10 episodes:

• Season 1: Beginners. Book 1. Straight-up EoTW. Get to know the world and the characters.
• Season 2: Learners. Books 2-4. Have the girls in the Tower and meeting the Seanchan, have the boys out with the Aiel. Perrin can be in Two Rivers to show how things are going back there. Maybe rearrange the plot to put Tear as a three-episode arc at the end of this season, to tie everyone together.
• Season 3: Leaders. Books 5-11. Everyone starts to develop their armies/nations, fight some Forsaken. Keep the big stuff - Dumai's Wells gets an episode, the White Tower split gets an episode, the battles of Caemlyn and Illian each get an episode. This season would contain political conflicts, but would most likely conclude them (like Elayne's succession, Rand building his empire, and Perrin and the Shaido)
• Season 4: Legends. Books 9-14. Here's where we really start to fly. Skip most of the talking and the political drama that wasn't covered last season. You cleanse saidin, you restore the White Tower and have them attacked by Seanchan, you have Rand accepting his madness, you get the rescue of Moiraine, and of course you get the Last Battle. Going big or going home, every episode is crazier than the last.

I think that tracks with the big-picture character development in the series - I think the two big problems the series had towards the end was that the world got too big (spent time in Arad Doman, with the Whitecloaks, in Ebou Dar, chasing the Shaido all over the continent), and that the characters regressed from Legends to Leaders (after Rand cleansed saidin in book 9, we spent a lot of time with Perrin and Elayne dealing with their respective nations, you have a lot of drama with the Rand and the Seanchan), spending too much time on political conflict when it could have been personal conflict.

 

All that goes to say, I think a show would need to stay focused. RJ spent a lot of time exploring the world while not actively moving forward with the story (looking at you, Bowl of Winds!). I think comparing recent adaptations (Legend of the Seeker vs Game of Thrones) shows that viewers want to follow an overarching story. I thought Seeker was a huge wasted opportunity, since there were so many one-shot episodes. I wanted to follow a story; I didn't want to watch characters face a bunch of mini-crises that they would solve and there would be no lasting repercussions. I think, as long as the show takes the simple characters we start the series with and build them into the leaders of the world by the end, that would be faithful enough in my mind. I won't fret if there are only 5 Forsaken, or a couple of nations get cut, or the Whitecloaks get entirely decimated at Toman Head and never come back. Keep the focus on Rand and friends, and the show would be worth watching.

[Jondesu he/him]

I have to say that I kinda liked the political conflict stuff, and I think it would actually make sense to include a fair bit of that in the TV show, considering how well that kind of stuff has been received in shows like Game of Thrones (though we all know it's not the main attraction, it can still be quite compelling if done right).  I like your overall breakdown of how it could progress, though, Pagerunner.

 

jW

[The Invested Beard]

I ca see them doing two books per season with some strategic trimming and shaping. 7 seasons sounds about right to me.

[The Sovereign]

This is pretty much me regarding WoT being a show:

 

 

I would love for them to do a good job, but there is so much potential to ruin greatness...

[Alfa he/him]

This is pretty much me regarding WoT being a show:

 

 

I would love for them to do a good job, but there is so much potential to ruin greatness...

 

Pretty much my look, add a poorly raised eyebrow to it. As for Pagerunner's Idea - it could work, but you need to watch VERY carefully (tin-compounder-carefully) that there does not happen something illogical or not WoT-conform. For example, if the battle of Dumai's Well happens before the tower splits (or even shortly after) that would ruin a lot of plot.

[Guest]

Well, since I have day-dreaming this day would once come, I am super excited over the prospect of WoT being adapted to the small screen. Hopefully they will put the required money to make it the large scale fantasy show we have all been dreaming on: GoT is only a beginning and it pleases the crowd because the fantasy element is quite low. WoT is another beast, it is a more classical tale, much like LoTR and I have faith is can work, if done properly.

 

We have 14 books and shows of this magnitude can expect to last for about 8 or 9 or even 10 seasons if there is enough new none repetitive material: I'd say it is doable. Stuff will be left out, plot lines condensed and side characters will be merged with other side characters, this is expected, but I still think a serious producers can get something awesome out of it.

 

WoT in a real-life action show!!!! This is great news.

[The Sovereign]

Well, since I have day-dreaming this day would once come, I am super excited over the prospect of WoT being adapted to the small screen. Hopefully they will put the required money to make it the large scale fantasy show we have all been dreaming on: GoT is only a beginning and it pleases the crowd because the fantasy element is quite low. WoT is another beast, it is a more classical tale, much like LoTR and I have faith is can work, if done properly.

 

We have 14 books and shows of this magnitude can expect to last for about 8 or 9 or even 10 seasons if there is enough new none repetitive material: I'd say it is doable. Stuff will be left out, plot lines condensed and side characters will be merged with other side characters, this is expected, but I still think a serious producers can get something awesome out of it.

 

WoT in a real-life action show!!!! This is great news.

maxal, I envy your optimism about this. Your post actually got me a bit more excited than I was. I am bordering on cautiously optimistic now (a vast improvement from actively skeptical).

Edited May 2, 2016 by Iron Eyes

[Briar King]

I said this on Malazan but if the show lands on HBO(doubtful) this would be the one show I'd be mad about getting the typical HBO titty treatment.

Personally I think it ll land on a normal cable station and my hope would be for FX to get it.

[Guest]

maxal, I envy your optimism about this. Your post actually got me a bit more excited than I was. I am bordering on cautiously optimistic now (a vast improvement from actively skeptical).

 

We have to be optimistic! We all love fantasy: we wouldn't be here if we didn't love fantasy and as fantasy lovers most of us are sensitive to the negative stigma often associates to the genre. This being said, the success of LoTR, Harry Potter and GoT has done what decades of literature has failed to do: it has brought in the larger public, it has help lower the boundaries and present fantasy as a worthy, entertaining genre. People who previously look down on it are now getting curious. What did on of my colleague said just yesterday? How he wished there was more magic in GoT because he finds it intriguing.

 

This is great and let's be honest, when it comes to fantasy, Wheel of Time has to be one of the most classic story. It combines every single of the standard tropes into one of the most detailed world since LoTR. It is truly Epic. It'd got one of my personal favorite magic system, it pictures a matriarchal society and it is extremely diverse in terms of races and sexual orientation. 

 

Unfortunately, I have noticed how new readers seem to have trouble getting into WoT. The first book was published more than 30 years ago and it shows. Back in the day, story telling was slightly different and readers have complained of the pace... which is a shame. It is why having it being adapted in a real-life action show is the best thing it could happen to the story: it will make it accessible to new readers/viewers who perhaps are daunted by the task of reading 14 massive books.

 

Imagine all what a decent quality adaptation of WoT could do for the future of large scale epic series on the small screen. The success of GoT has opened the door for new franchises which alternatively may, someday, open the door for the Stormlight Archive.

 

There are a lot of ways this could go wrong, but there also is a lot of ways it could go right. 

[Seonid he/him]

We have to be optimistic! We all love fantasy: we wouldn't be here if we didn't love fantasy and as fantasy lovers most of us are sensitive to the negative stigma often associates to the genre. This being said, the success of LoTR, Harry Potter and GoT has done what decades of literature has failed to do: it has brought in the larger public, it has help lower the boundaries and present fantasy as a worthy, entertaining genre. People who previously look down on it are now getting curious. What did on of my colleague said just yesterday? How he wished there was more magic in GoT because he finds it intriguing.

 

This is great and let's be honest, when it comes to fantasy, Wheel of Time has to be one of the most classic story. It combines every single of the standard tropes into one of the most detailed world since LoTR. It is truly Epic. It'd got one of my personal favorite magic system, it pictures a matriarchal society and it is extremely diverse in terms of races and sexual orientation. 

 

Unfortunately, I have noticed how new readers seem to have trouble getting into WoT. The first book was published more than 30 years ago and it shows. Back in the day, story telling was slightly different and readers have complained of the pace... which is a shame. It is why having it being adapted in a real-life action show is the best thing it could happen to the story: it will make it accessible to new readers/viewers who perhaps are daunted by the task of reading 14 massive books.

 

Imagine all what a decent quality adaptation of WoT could do for the future of large scale epic series on the small screen. The success of GoT has opened the door for new franchises which alternatively may, someday, open the door for the Stormlight Archive.

 

There are a lot of ways this could go wrong, but there also is a lot of ways it could go right. 

 

This is my big hope too. WoT also is nowhere near as gritty and controversial as Game of Thrones. That could be a bonus or a disadvantage, depending on how it gets played (at least in terms of ratings). I hope that they don't try to copy the Game of Thrones route just to draw viewers. (They'd actually lose me as one if they did, but that's a matter of personal taste).

[Guest]

This is my big hope too. WoT also is nowhere near as gritty and controversial as Game of Thrones. That could be a bonus or a disadvantage, depending on how it gets played (at least in terms of ratings). I hope that they don't try to copy the Game of Thrones route just to draw viewers. (They'd actually lose me as one if they did, but that's a matter of personal taste).

 

LoTR wasn't gritty and it worked brilliantly: not everything has to be gritty. HBO didn't turn GoT into a gritty series: it has always been gritty. They don't need to add grittiness to draw in viewers, the first book basically features the characters running from evil foes we end up fearing through a bizarre landscape until the final revelation. It's got Ogiers, Trollocs, Myrdraal, awesome powers being carried by the female characters: it doesn't need the producers to add drama to it.

[DSC01 he/him]

I'd like Netflix to get it. While HBO tries to cater to an R-rated audience and other networks have budget and content concerns, Netflix does what is good for the show. Daredevil is right in between PG-13 and R. WoT would range from PG (even G) up to a soft R, when the scene demands it. It's got Netflix written all over it.

I started another reread to celebrate the news, and I've been paying special attention to how it might be adapted. I think that they should do the unexpected and not open with the Dragonmount prologue. It should be worked in later, preferably as a dream that Rand has in the second or third episode, when they're doing a lot of traveling and need something to liven up the proceedings. I think opening up with Rand and Tam on the road, with Rand glimpsing the Mydraal, is the best place to begin.

The first episode should take us through Winternight and get the characters on the road away from home. The second could be travel and Baerlon (a good place for the Dragonmount dream), and the third episode could cover Shadar Logoth. If they kept it moving at that place, drastically condensing all the travel scenes, they might be able to get a good ways into The Great Hunt by the end of the first season.

There are reasons not to do it that way, especially because The Eye of the World is a very good, complete arc of a story. But I think it would be good to aim for opening the third season with The Shadow Rising. That's where one really starts to have an understanding of the full scope of the series.

[The Invested Beard]

Yeah, I'm really in the camp of people saying "Please please please don't sleaze this thing up just for the sake of sleazing it up and trying to be like GoT." I understand that there are some adult things in the books, but there are tasteful ways of showing those things without making it completely inappropriate for younger audiences (Not super young I'm talking 12 and up).

 

Also, I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I kind of hope they drop the whole polygamy thing. It never really seemed to pay off as being important to the story itself in a way that it would be missed. Might be my own moral convictions coming into play there, but my opinion for what it's worth.

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

Hmmm... IMO the "polygamy thing" is the motivation for a large part of the character interactions between those involved.

Aviendha would't have had any reason to go to Salidar and Ebou Dar otherwise, for one thing.

 

Also, if they keep only a single one of Rand's love interests they'd be p-ing off the two thirds of the readers who preferred either one of the others. The flaming Dragon Reborn couldn't pick between them, I don't see why the screenwriters should. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by EagleOfTheForestPath

[The Invested Beard]

Hmmm... IMO the "polygamy thing" is the motivation for a large part of the character interactions between those involved.

Aviendha would't have had any reason to go to Salidar and Ebou Dar otherwise, for one thing.

 

Also, if they keep only a single one of Rand's love interests they'd be p-ing off the two thirds of the readers who preferred either one of the others. The flaming Dragon Reborn couldn't pick between them, I don't see why the screenwriters should. 

 

I know, it just all ends up seeming kind of...lecherous in the end. Like I said, it's just, like, my opinion man.

[DSC01 he/him]

I got an idea for how they should do the opening to the show that I think would be awesome but probably won't ever happen. So, the opening credits or however they do it should be a voiceover, with pauses in between each line of 1-2 seconds. While the voiceover is playing, we see a closeup animation of the serpent and wheel (which we will see whole at the end of the intro).

 

The voiceover is :"The Wheel of Time turns / and Ages come and pass, / leaving memories that become legend. / Legend fades to myth, / and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. [double-length pause; whole wheel-and-serpent crest shows onscreen with title]"

 

The main part of the idea I have is for what plays during those pauses. So, they film a dramatization of the Strike at Shayol Ghul--several minutes of The Hundred Companions and their army fighting, some shots of the Forsaken in conference with the Dark One, a sequence portraying Lews Therin et al setting the weave to seal the Bore and the counterstroke, etc--and use a second or two for each pause.

 

For the uninitiated, it wouldn't be clear what was going on, but it would be obvious that some epic battle that has something to do with the story was being portrayed. As the series went on, people would slowly realize that they were getting a slightly different scene each time, and they would also slowly begin to recognize the characters and gradually realize what they were seeing. 

[Master Elodin]

I got an idea for how they should do the opening to the show that I think would be awesome but probably won't ever happen. So, the opening credits or however they do it should be a voiceover, with pauses in between each line of 1-2 seconds. While the voiceover is playing, we see a closeup animation of the serpent and wheel (which we will see whole at the end of the intro).

The voiceover is :"The Wheel of Time turns / and Ages come and pass, / leaving memories that become legend. / Legend fades to myth, / and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. [double-length pause; whole wheel-and-serpent crest shows onscreen with title]"

The main part of the idea I have is for what plays during those pauses. So, they film a dramatization of the Strike at Shayol Ghul--several minutes of The Hundred Companions and their army fighting, some shots of the Forsaken in conference with the Dark One, a sequence portraying Lews Therin et al setting the weave to seal the Bore and the counterstroke, etc--and use a second or two for each pause.

For the uninitiated, it wouldn't be clear what was going on, but it would be obvious that some epic battle that has something to do with the story was being portrayed. As the series went on, people would slowly realize that they were getting a slightly different scene each time, and they would also slowly begin to recognize the characters and gradually realize what they were seeing.

And then it ends with the classic snake/wheel symbol, except the snake turns towards the camera and is about to bite you. Edited May 6, 2016 by Master Elodin

[DSC01 he/him]

The snake has to be eating its own tail for the symbolism to make sense, but they could use an animated version of the symbol from the map. The snake can be writhing, the wheel and spear slowly rotating,the banner flapping in the breeze, and the chora leaves moving as if growing.

 

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

No offence, but I really hope they don't do the voice over, after a couple of episodes that's going to get incredibly annoying, at least to me.

 

The opening sequence is one aspect where I think everyone can agree that the 'HBO-treatment' wouldn't be a bad thing.

If they get the same team that did the GoT intro, I expect to see something amazing, though hopefully not just copy-pasting it onto Randland.

[Quiver he/him]

No offence, but I really hope they don't do the voice over, after a couple of episodes that's going to get incredibly annoying, at least to me.

 

The opening sequence is one aspect where I think everyone can agree that the 'HBO-treatment' wouldn't be a bad thing.

If they get the same team that did the GoT intro, I expect to see something amazing, though hopefully not just copy-pasting it onto Randland.

 

It's funny you mention that. There was a show that started airing in the UK a while ago based on Beowulf... and I was never able to make it past the title sequance, because it felt very much like they knocking off GoT's opening.

 

Anyway, I also disagree on the narration. You could absolutely get the idea of time passing over and over, of nations having risen, fallen and risen again, just through visuals... and I kinda feel like that narration every week would be sort of cheesy. Might undermine the "grand epic" vibe.... 

[DSC01 he/him]

I've been thinking about the challenges of doing an adaptation that does the WoT justice in particular while I do this reread. Even though I'm only just starting The Shadow Rising, it suddenly occurred to me what will make the later books so difficult to adapt.

At a certain point, many chapters feature very little action. The POV character might walk down a hallway, and if anything else happens, it will be something relatively insignificant. However, as that character walks down the hallway, they'll pass by some minor character and remember a conversation that they had with them and several other side characters. Then they'll see a nervous servant and think of what is causing that nervousness--perhaps by way of recollecting another scene involving another gaggle of minor characters. It's really an ingenious way to check in with all of the dozens of minor characters running about in your epic series of lengthy books, but it sure is something that is difficult to adapt to a visual medium.

The simple solution--if the showrunners aim for a very literal adaptation (and I hope they do)--is to excise those walking-down-the-hall chapters almost entirely and only dramatize the important memories from those chapters. They can use those scenes to lend variety to episodes that would otherwise be one long single POV.

[Alfa he/him]

I've been thinking about the challenges of doing an adaptation that does the WoT justice in particular while I do this reread. Even though I'm only just starting The Shadow Rising, it suddenly occurred to me what will make the later books so difficult to adapt.

At a certain point, many chapters feature very little action. The POV character might walk down a hallway, and if anything else happens, it will be something relatively insignificant. However, as that character walks down the hallway, they'll pass by some minor character and remember a conversation that they had with them and several other side characters. Then they'll see a nervous servant and think of what is causing that nervousness--perhaps by way of recollecting another scene involving another gaggle of minor characters. It's really an ingenious way to check in with all of the dozens of minor characters running about in your epic series of lengthy books, but it sure is something that is difficult to adapt to a visual medium.

The simple solution--if the showrunners aim for a very literal adaptation (and I hope they do)--is to excise those walking-down-the-hall chapters almost entirely and only dramatize the important memories from those chapters. They can use those scenes to lend variety to episodes that would otherwise be one long single POV.

 

But it won't be really WoT when, for example, you don't have like 500 pages only about what Nynaeve considers "adult" in clothing and behaviour and it's interaction with about 75% of the main cast, especially Elaine, and the vice-versa ideas of everybody else about Nynaeve. It's long, it's unbearable to read (no, i don't want to hear about hypocritical standards for men, dresses or behaviour for the tenth time), but it's also great. I guess Nynaeve won't be Nynaeve as we know her without it. Same goes for everybody else, and these little conversations, in a way, make this world unique.

I think, in a way Jordan and Sanderson are quite the opposite kinds of authors in terms of "movieability". Brandon writes straight to the point, even if it takes several books to go there, compare it with a stream-line Jet. A relatively small cast, few "distractions", everything serves for a purpose, a lot of action, dialogues that lead to somehting, or foreshadow something, or give a good laugh.

Robert wrote more in the broad way, i could compare it with a 747, not very fast, but with a very big, very diverse cast. Not that much action in the same number of pages, but you can hear the opinion of every single third-line character, who appeared in book two, and sadly (or gladly) died in book eight in a very unpleasnt way, but contributed something to some action somewhere in the last third of book 4.Both ways are great, but Brandon is, given the necessary animation techniques, far more simple to bring on screen, without cutting a good bit of the spirit of the book.