Illustrated SA Scenes & Characters

maxal · July 15, 2016

On 7/13/2016 at 11:37 AM, sheep said:

Everyone draws Adolin's hair a different way. The description in WoK says it's a "messy mop of blond sprinkled with black" and it's vague enough that all artists take their interpretation of it, and I love to see how people do it differently. It's one of the things I enjoy about the Cosmere fandom, next to everyone's designs for the Bridge Four and Kholin Army uniforms. Michael Whelan drew it on the cover of WoR like a strange fusion of a utility jumpsuit and a Middle Ages doublet. Mine is closer to a Napoleonic era army uniform.

@maxal and I had a long conversation a while ago about Adolin's hair , for artistic research only, of course. That is why I came up with this handy chart so you can see what best fits your personal mental image of his character and appearance.

The reason why I draw Adolin with the first style is because it's standard young man hair. The "Bieber" makes him look too young, like a boy. The "Dalinar" is the soldier's haircut to fit under a standard helmet and Adolin hated the standard uniform in WoK. So something that is in-between fits him when he is referred to as "lad" or "youth" through all of WoK.

It's the same hair as Gilbert's from the Anne of Green Gables animated series.

It was a serious discussion on a subject of the utmost importance For my part, I tend to picture Adolin with the undercut upper hair in the picture but without the undercut Exactly the kind of hair cut a boys band singer would have or yeah Justin Bieber (BTW he is about Adolin's age so it isn't such as bad representation though google tells me he has changed his hair cut into something Adolin would totally not wear The hair style I liked he once had seems to have bee a few years ago, so huh yeah he does look very young in those pictures, so you kinda have to age him by a few years, but it isn't so bad, hair cut wise).

Adolin's hair have to convey both the illusion they are stylish whenever he is at a party while being messy and unruly enough during day to day functions to have his own father refer to it as a "mop of hair". It has to be a non-standard or non-regular hair cut for a soldier, with bangs of hair falling over his forehead whenever he is being active while giving him a youthful appearance. It certainly does not age him as the "Dalinar hair cut" would.

Ah... Gilbert... an interesting mix in between Adolin and Kaladin, but here it is:

Spoiler

On 7/13/2016 at 11:37 AM, sheep said:

Well, I'm not even going to ask what sort of strange things poppped into your mind. I think my own imagination on that is more than enough. And a whitespine named Toothless is so deliciously ironic and so cute that even hipsters who don't do irony even ironically would like it, because everyone likes the How to Train Your Dragon movie.

Everyone values their purity differently, and it's down to culture and then personal preferences. But generally speaking, for cultures where it is valued, it is more important for the woman to be pure than a man. Since there's no way to tell for men, so it comes down to the honour system. Alethi might value purity on wedding day for both bride and groom, but I don't think they expect it, not for a high ranking lighteyes that can get away with lots of things through connections. So Adolin must be an odd one out in his society for his purity, even though everyone is supposed to be proper and reserved in public. Dalinar and Navani are proper in public and he resents her trying to get close to him in WoK because it looks bad. Makes you wonder what Elhokar is up to . His wife lives in the capital and even if he doesn't miss her, he must be restless.

Don't ask I love a the idea of a Whitespine being named Toothless :wub:

I would say Alethi generally marry in their teens, so I do think they are expected to remain chaste until then. However, this expectation must not be withhold when it comes to older spouse, such as when Dalinar married Shshshshshsh. I don't think anyone expected him to be a virgin.

On 7/13/2016 at 11:37 AM, sheep said:

Harry was marked as the "Chosen One" from birth and Voldemort kept following around for years trying to kill him. Kaladin chose himself by deciding that he had to be the one to stand up and protect everyone. Some readers praise his willpower and determination but to me it feels like he has a martyr complex. And his belief that he is responsible for everything and blaming himself if something goes wrong is ... tiresome . I don't think Harry got that annoying, even if he was as blind and unobservant as a flobberworm.

Oh man, have we derailed this into a "let's complain about Kaladin" thread? I think most people who don't particularly feel an emotional bias towards Kaladin have criticised him for how fast he picks up Lashing skills. And I totally agree, it's way too fast - but I accept it because it's part of narrative convencience, like a training montage in a kungfu movie where they play "Eye of the Tiger" and have the student break planks with his face in slow motion. It doesn't make sense realistically, but if you get hung about it, you can't move on to the next chapter and enjoy the story. Adolin couldn't land a blow on Szeth twice, but in the prologue of WoK, Gavilar hit Szeth a couple of times, but Szeth healed each time. It has been commented in that duel with Resi (I think?) that Adolin is the best, better than Dalinar in his youth. Adolin in top form without panic-mode would therefore be able to land a hit on Szeth, even though he wouldn't be able to kill him. But of course he couldn't, because Kaladin needs people to protect.

So the big question (which probably won't be answered because he's dead) is where Sadeas got his Plate from. If he won it from someone, then why couldn't repeat his performance? Unless people refuse Shard duels with anyone who has won one in the past, because they don't want to lose. I think Gavilar getting Plate for Sadeas of all people is a bit of a stretch. Uncle Toh and Shshshsh wouldn't give their family heirloom to a stranger. Shards are family heirlooms that go to family. You can't just loan Shards and expect them to be given back once your son is old enough to hit the practice grounds.

Harry never wanted to be the Chosen One, he simply wanted to life a normal life with his friends. Kaladin never wanted the quiet life: he also dreamed of glory and battles: he auto-choose himself to save people, nobody impose it on him. I do think it is possible to read Kaladin several ways: his determination, his courage and his habit to never give up in the face of adversity make him admirable, but his tendency to think everything is about him does get annoying. He makes me think of Wolverine, in the first X-Men movie, when he gets pined by Magneto, wrongly thinking the super-mutant was after him. He wasn't. He wanted the girl and he told him in quite those words: "As usual, you think it is about you.". There. That's Kaladin. He thinks it is always about him, about him succeeding or falling, about him being a Radiant: he just doesn't get not everything revolves around him. Harry never felt like a martyr to me: he did get angsty towards the later books, but it kinda was about him, him having to defeat the evil lord. Kaladin is a hero, but he isn't the chosen one: he is only one among many, many and many chosen ones.

Bah it is easy to complain about Kaladin: he has so many page time, it is hard not to find something to complain about... I mean, you can't complain over Kaladin not having enough page time or him not having a decent enough character arc or him not being scheduled to have a large enough role into the future books... So you've got to complain about the character himself.

As a reader, characters who pick up skills too fast annoy me. I don't particularly enjoy when a characters get too powerful when compared to everyone else, especially if he starts from zero to get there. It was one of the several aspects of the Divergence story I hate, how the main protagonist passes from no experience to badass fighter within six weeks, so yes I do get annoy at Kaladin from passing from not being aware of his Nahel bond, to super fighter in the sky within a few weeks. At least, his battle experience made sense, but I think I would have appreciated the character more if he wasn't the best at everything he does. He didn't need to be fabulous with the spear, he could have just been good or he could have been a bad surgeon or something... There is something agonizingly painful to read someone who is so talented in so many different spheres.

On 7/13/2016 at 11:37 AM, sheep said:

And I would say Elit is around late 20's. He hangs with the group of young lighteyes, including girls that Adolin dated. It would be kind of weird for a 30+ year old man to be socially involved with young 20-something unmarried girls.

Is there a difference between having a house under a highprince's banner and being a landlord? I don't understand the distinctions between the dahns and the requirements for each rank. Jakamav is a landlord at Dahn 3 which is the same rank as Renarin. Does Renarin have land under his own name? Or does his rank just come from having a highprince as a father? I don't get it, and it's confusing.

When Feather sees the Renarin picture she will die.

That's what I thought too, somewhere towards his late twenties. I would also point out most of those girls Adolin formally dated are probably married now. Adolin mentions, at some point in WoK, how everyone his age and almost everyone younger than him were now married, so it is safe to assume the former dates are now the wife of Adolin's enemies. Elit and Relis are most certainly married.

I thought a land lord simply was the lord of a house who had sworn to serve under a Highprince which would make Jakamav a candidate for the next Highprince of the former Roion's princedom. To be of the 3rd dahn means Jakamav is very high ranked indeed and yes, he is the same rank as at least Renarin and probably Adolin. Renarin is not a land lord though, he is a prince. He does not own land nor do I think Adolin owns land. Dalinar probably owns land which should be passed down to Adolin upon his death. I am not sure what the second son gets, so yeah it does get confusing.

The Honor Spren · July 15, 2016

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Ah... Gilbert... an interesting mix in between Adolin and Kaladin, but here it is:

Hide contents

The fact that Anne has red hair makes this picture 5x better. :lol:

sheep · July 15, 2016

On 14/07/2016 at 2:51 AM, Rasarr said:

It's not "disgusting", it's sweet! (unless you're sugar intolerant, I suppose). And I love the lighting in this piece.

Also, Adolin a la Pompadour killed me It is now my personal headcanon that this is how Adolin used to keep his hair back in the day.
"Dad, it's not a phase!"
*cue the Blackthorn shaving Adolin's head with a Shardblade*

I like to make my fanservice-y shipping pics as sweet as possible, because that's what fanservice is for.

Oh man, Pompadour Adolin is great. Because of this post, I had to draw this:

HEY, DOLLFACE!

Spoiler

He can make anything look good. :wub:

But Dalinar disapproves.

Adolin: Dad, look at my new jacket! It's swell!

Dalinar: First you wear grease in your hair, then you buy a leather jacket and listen to loud music all day. Son, you'll be worshipping Odium by next week.

On 14/07/2016 at 4:37 AM, esamitch said:

Thanks for the compliments and the artistic advice @sheep! I appreciate it. I didn't have any sort of reference on hand when I drew the Shardplate (I was both without book and without internet I believe) so I expected it to be a little inaccurate. Just to clarify though, that's not bare skin in the gaps, it's more of an undersuit thing. I guess I should have made more of a difference between its color and the color of his skin!

Shading it in black or with blue would have made it clear that it was part of the Shardplate or part of the padding underneath. It's kind of like those pictures of tennis players jumping about where they're wearing skin coloured tights underneath their tennis dresses and everyone on the internet is using their CSI enhance tools to zoom in and ogle.

I think you did a great job for drawing armour without a reference. Keep drawing; it gets less scary when you break it down into rectangular sections of arms, legs, and chest and draw it piece by piece.

On 14/07/2016 at 5:06 AM, Erklitt said:

Shallastick ?!?!?

That word alone really sent me rolling on the floor, laughing!

(And as a usually silent admirer of you art, @sheep, I'll take this opportunity to thank you for those special moments! My all-time favorites are still the "Let's draw... (K/S/A)" series - that was another ROFL moment.)

Ah, another lurker has been revealed. Since it's usually the same people posting in this thread, I forget that there are other lurkers around reading all the crazy (and sometimes off-topic) things we post. I hope we don't sound too crazy.

The strange thing is that I label the random sections at the end of my art dumps "Obligatory Silly Stuff" because I have a weird sense of humour and a lot of time the silly drawings are ideas that only sounded funny in my head -- that's why I call it "silly stuff". I'm glad to see that other people think they're funny too.

And if there's an excuse for Shallan to draw shirtless Adolin, I think she would take advantage of it.

Spoiler

Just in case people were wondering what it looked like up close.

15 hours ago, CarolaDavar said:

@sheep thank you! I tried the skin tip you gave me (all the while deciding what a Soulcaster looked like), on a hand, and it is already 120 percent better than I used to be. Also. . . Could you perhaps look at this and give me some constructive criticism? (I live and breathe other artists' constructive criticism)

Oh wow, that work on the skin looks good. Those brushstrokes show texture, and that is exactly the rough but realistic effect I was talking about -- perfectly smooth skin in a digital painting starts looking like one of those clothing store mannequins if you're too perfect with shading.

In terms of constructive criticism, I'd like to point out that due to the angle of the hand being slightly tilted, the gems should be slightly tilted away too, instead of facing the viewer face on. If you taped a coin to the back of your hand and tilted it, you would see that the coin is an oval shape and only perfectly circular if you were looking at it directly.

The gems facing away from the viewer should look something like this, with the back facets looking narrower than the front ones, and the curve of the settings wrapping around and being invisible from the back due to the angle of the gems.

EXAMPLE

Spoiler

That shrivelled looking monster hand, haha... :lol:

And some suggestions to make your painting "pop" and look more dramatic: using more and darker shadows and complementing them with highlights in specific points will make your painting appear more three-dimensional. Don't be afraid to experiment a bit and use a deeper brown in shadowed areas such as the place where the fingers connect to the palm, and highlight the highest points on the hand, which is usually the knuckles and the bones that connect them to the wrist. The areas closest to the viewer are lighter, and the areas that are farther away, or are blocked from the light are darker. And if you incorporate the background colour (the apricot-y shade) onto your subject, the result looks more atmospheric and cohesive. In the shadows I've used an apricot-y shade here and there. If you held your hand on top of a piece of red coloured paper, there would be reflections of red on your skin where it is closest to the paper. That's the effect I tried to replicate.

If you are having trouble colouring in a metallic gold object, such as the bands on the fingers and wrist, I've added a colour palette for you to experiment with. Metallic objects reflect more than skin, so they have brighter highlights and reflect more of the surrounding colour. Gold on a blue background would have a similar but cooler set of shading colours.

I hope this explanation was understandable; please ask if you want a clarification. You've done a good job so far, it's seriously impressive work. If you're drawing from life, you're getting pretty good at it, and when you do it enough, understanding and applying your knowledge on how light works becomes second nature. It gets easier from here!

14 hours ago, maxal said:

It was a serious discussion on a subject of the utmost importance For my part, I tend to picture Adolin with the undercut upper hair in the picture but without the undercut Exactly the kind of hair cut a boys band singer would have or yeah Justin Bieber (BTW he is about Adolin's age so it isn't such as bad representation though google tells me he has changed his hair cut into something Adolin would totally not wear The hair style I liked he once had seems to have bee a few years ago, so huh yeah he does look very young in those pictures, so you kinda have to age him by a few years, but it isn't so bad, hair cut wise).

From what I've seen, everyone seems to imagine Adolin's hair as way more fashionable than my version. Long top, short sides, or undercut styles are very popular these days, but mine is the equivalent of vanilla ice cream. :blink: It's not too long and not too short, not too old and not too young, fulfills the criteria of black and gold and kind of messy, and doesn't really make a statement. I guess I am boring, because instead of a cool and fashionable pop star or soccer player's hair, I designed Adolin's hair to be a wholesome kid movie hero's hair, like Peter Pevensie from the Narnia movie series, or Taran from Disney's version of The Black Cauldron.

Oh gosh, Gilbert. :wub: If you haven't read the Anne series and like historical drama/romance/slice of life books, you might like it. Gilbert is adorable and loyal and kind, but kind of stupid at how he shows it in the beginning. He only called Anne "Carrots" and pulled her hair because he didn't know what flirting was. If Mr Darcy is the Kaladin of romance novels, Gilbert is the Adolin. And Anne didn't even notice it for years and years.

And Gilbo is Canadian, too.

Spoiler

Urgh, so cute. :blink:

Quote

I would say Alethi generally marry in their teens, so I do think they are expected to remain chaste until then. However, this expectation must not be withhold when it comes to older spouse, such as when Dalinar married Shshshshshsh. I don't think anyone expected him to be a virgin.

Adolin is one year away from how old Dalinar was when he met Shshshsh for the first time. At this point in time, he might be considered an older spouse, or at least close to it. The traditional age for being an "on the shelf" spinster was 25 in the old days. I think that at his age, people would not be shocked or appalled to find that he is not a virgin. Shallan didn't care about his playboy tendencies when the betrothal was arranged because it was only the marriage she wanted, and I don't think she expected unicorn bait on her wedding night. But there is reason enough to suspect that she has revised her opinion on him. He is very shy and doesn't like being kissed in public. That's one of the things she wished for while she was in the chasm with Kaladin.

Harry was put in a bad spot by circumstances out of his control, because of Snape and Dumbledore and the prophecy. He's the victim of the situation, and would happily have traded being "the Boy who Lived" for his parents being alive. For that reason, I can forgive his moodiness in later books (being in the magical equivalent of high school with fellow high school students doesn't help) but Kaladin ... Kaladin was yearning for glory since he was a boy, and discontent with a comfortable life as the highest ranking darkeyed family in town because it was boring. Kaladin thinks he's the lead actor in what is really an ensemble cast production, and the people around him are NPCs or mooks who are incapable or can't be relied on to take action. Some are sympathetic, like Bridge Four and that guy Hobber who lost his legs, but they're still mooks. That's why he think it's his job to save the girl, save the day, and save the world. :rolleyes:

Some people would say that you will only get disappointment if you expect realism in fantasy fiction. But my opinion is that Kaladin has been set up since childhood at having a habit of excelling at whatever he tries to do, which is only balanced out by his really terrible luck. If Kaladin was bad at things and also the recipient of the universe dumping chull dung all over him, he wouldn't be the type of protagonist people like and root for. You hate the underdog characters, but the majority likes them, because they work -- they make stories fulfilling to most readers. At least there is one thing that Kaladin is bad at, and that is making one liners. I'll accept "Honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do" as cool because it's understated and mostly humble, but the whole "skies are mine" speech had me rolling my eyes all the way around. :rolleyes:

15 hours ago, maxal said:

I thought a land lord simply was the lord of a house who had sworn to serve under a Highprince which would make Jakamav a candidate for the next Highprince of the former Roion's princedom. To be of the 3rd dahn means Jakamav is very high ranked indeed and yes, he is the same rank as at least Renarin and probably Adolin. Renarin is not a land lord though, he is a prince. He does not own land nor do I think Adolin owns land. Dalinar probably owns land which should be passed down to Adolin upon his death. I am not sure what the second son gets, so yeah it does get confusing.

I assumed that being a landlord, Jakamav would fulfill the traditional requirements of being one, which is owning land. They own land within a princedom, but the land is theirs (or their family's) and they pay taxes and send soldiers to the Highprince, but they get to make their own rules on their own land. That's what I assumed based on how the Sadeas princedom worked, and how Amaram worked for Sadeas. It would also explain why Alethkar was united only a generation ago. All that autonomy for the landlords and the Highprinces makes it difficult to have an organised centralised government, which they don't have even now with most of the Highprince of Commerce/Information/Whatever jobs vacant.

Renarin was being pressured to go into the Ardentia through most of WoK. He mentioned at one point that he didn't want that, and the other option was to be a citylord somewhere. From that I am guessing he doesn't own land and is not expecting to get anything unless Adolin dies. Yeah, the dahn ranking is a confusing thing when you have people like Jakamav who owns Shardplate, and holds land and the landlord title in his right, who happens to have the same rank as a second son who mooches off his dad and has no assets or prospects of his own. I can understand why all the lighteyes would hate Adolin when Renarin collects Plate and Blade within a few weeks of each other.

Art time

Quote

Of the half-dozen or so people in the room, one drew her attention most. Straight-backed, with jet-black hair, he wore white clothing and stood in front of the room’s crackling hearth.

The man turned around, revealing light violet eyes and a face scarred by old wounds, including a cut that ran down his cheek and deformed his upper lip. Though he looked refined—holding a goblet of wine in his left hand and dressed in the finest of suits—his face and hands told another story. Of battles, of killing, and of strife.

This was not the messenger from Shallan’s past. The man raised his right hand, in which he held some kind of long reed. He placed this to his lips. He held it like a weapon, pointed right at Shallan.

Chapter 43, "The Ghostbloods", Words of Radiance

Character Design - Mraize

Spoiler

This one was a bit of a challenge since there was barely anything to go off. But I read the chapter, and gathered my thoughts, and drew Mraize as a guy who is tough and intimidating but outwardly stylish. Black hair, sharp white suit, scars. My interpretation of his character was based on how he approached and threatened Shallan in Urithiru, and how he seemed likeable, polite, and civil when talking to her. The result was drawing him as inspired by classic mobsters. "Wouldn't it be a shame if your house burned down?" types. Peter Ahlstrom said Mraize's nationality was Thaylen, but no one mentioned him having big white eyebrows, so I drew them to match his hair. Maybe he trims them down and dyes them.

Mraize - Character Portrait

Spoiler

With a stylised Ghostbloods logo. I'm guessing that this is what the shape of the triple diamonds looks like, but the arrangement of diamonds was never specified in the book. He looks tough but Taln could beat him up.

Process pic:

Quote

I reworked the face multiple times because I couldn't get a good grasp of his features...minor characters are hard when there's not much to build on.

Let me know what you think of this character design. I'm aware most people don't make clear mental images when reading, and the ones that do rarely do it for very minor characters who appear in like 3 chapters.

**Rasarr** · July 15, 2016

As usual, all I can do is gush and gush over your images. Love your Mraize design, even if it doesn't match up with my mental image, and Teenage Rebel Adolin is just plain hilarous.

Erklitt · July 16, 2016

18 hours ago, sheep said:

Let me know what you think of this character design. I'm aware most people don't make clear mental images when reading, and the ones that do rarely do it for very minor characters who appear in like 3 chapters.

I'm no artist and don't know what I'm talking about, but the way I imagine him his scars would be more disfiguring. Like where they cross the eyebrow or the lips, they should have some real (destructive) impact on those said eyebrow and lips. Make a deep dent or something, you know what I mean? He seems just still too handsome for someone so scarred.

But still, thanks for giving that man a distinctive face in my mind!

Argel · July 16, 2016

Great job with Mraize!!

CarolaDavar · July 16, 2016

Wow, the Maize and the teenager Adolin are great. Thanks for the tip, again. I will try to incorporate some of those things you told me about, and then i'll show you again. By the time I finish, I'll probably post it in the Stormlight Archive gallery.

I'm so glad you think i've been getting better! You have no idea how much that means to me!

maxal · July 18, 2016

22 hours ago, The Honor Spren said:

The fact that Anne has red hair makes this picture 5x better.

Yes. I know

9 hours ago, sheep said:

He can make anything look good.

But Dalinar disapproves.

Adolin: Dad, look at my new jacket! It's swell!

Dalinar: First you wear grease in your hair, then you buy a leather jacket and listen to loud music all day. Son, you'll be worshipping Odium by next week.

:lol: :lol: :lol: I SO want to read teenage Adolin pre-Gavilar's death. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease Brandon. Just one quick snapshot, but pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease give us just a tiny bit of young Adolin. We never get to read characters such as him.

9 hours ago, sheep said:

From what I've seen, everyone seems to imagine Adolin's hair as way more fashionable than my version. Long top, short sides, or undercut styles are very popular these days, but mine is the equivalent of vanilla ice cream. It's not too long and not too short, not too old and not too young, fulfills the criteria of black and gold and kind of messy, and doesn't really make a statement. I guess I am boring, because instead of a cool and fashionable pop star or soccer player's hair, I designed Adolin's hair to be a wholesome kid movie hero's hair, like Peter Pevensie from the Narnia movie series, or Taran from Disney's version of The Black Cauldron.

Oh gosh, Gilbert. If you haven't read the Anne series and like historical drama/romance/slice of life books, you might like it. Gilbert is adorable and loyal and kind, but kind of stupid at how he shows it in the beginning. He only called Anne "Carrots" and pulled her hair because he didn't know what flirting was. If Mr Darcy is the Kaladin of romance novels, Gilbert is the Adolin. And Anne didn't even notice it for years and years.

And Gilbo is Canadian, too.

As you once said, the beauty of SA is everyone is free to imagine the character as they see fit: your vision, my visions, other drawers visions, all are valid. I tend to picture him with a longer top and shorter side, but not with an undercut, but yours is great to. I mean, everyone loves vanilla ice cream: I love vanilla ice cream. I think the difference is the "statement". You hair do doesn't make one, as you say you designed for this reason, while in my own imagery, Adolin's hair are a statement by themselves. They are more crazy, but seriously, messy mop of hair could be a LOT of things.

As for Ann of Green Cables, well, I am Canadian. I would be denying my entire origins if I hadn't read every single book written by Lucy Maud Montgomery throughout my teenage years So yes, of course, I have did read Ann of Green Cables and its sequels. All of them. Every single one of them. Emily of the New Moon was quite good as well, according to my 14 years old self, of course

Gilbert would be an odd mix in between Kaladin and Adolin. He's Adolin because he is the son of a good family (while Ann is an orphan), he is playful, he is handsome and popular among the ladies, he is terrible at courtship, but he's Kaladin because he starts up fighting with Ann and he grows up to be a doctor. Ann, of course, cannot acknowledge she loves Gilbert until he falls sick and nearly dies. *Sobs*. And now you wonder why I keep figuring out impossible scenarios for Adolin? See. Gilbert is what I grew up with I don't know what it is with the "sick or injured" character which forces his love interest to finally acknowledge her feelings, but it gets to me every time. I guess I am just a big marshmallow deep down inside

9 hours ago, sheep said:

Adolin is one year away from how old Dalinar was when he met Shshshsh for the first time. At this point in time, he might be considered an older spouse, or at least close to it. The traditional age for being an "on the shelf" spinster was 25 in the old days. I think that at his age, people would not be shocked or appalled to find that he is not a virgin. Shallan didn't care about his playboy tendencies when the betrothal was arranged because it was only the marriage she wanted, and I don't think she expected unicorn bait on her wedding night. But there is reason enough to suspect that she has revised her opinion on him. He is very shy and doesn't like being kissed in public. That's one of the things she wished for while she was in the chasm with Kaladin.

Harry was put in a bad spot by circumstances out of his control, because of Snape and Dumbledore and the prophecy. He's the victim of the situation, and would happily have traded being "the Boy who Lived" for his parents being alive. For that reason, I can forgive his moodiness in later books (being in the magical equivalent of high school with fellow high school students doesn't help) but Kaladin ... Kaladin was yearning for glory since he was a boy, and discontent with a comfortable life as the highest ranking darkeyed family in town because it was boring. Kaladin thinks he's the lead actor in what is really an ensemble cast production, and the people around him are NPCs or mooks who are incapable or can't be relied on to take action. Some are sympathetic, like Bridge Four and that guy Hobber who lost his legs, but they're still mooks. That's why he think it's his job to save the girl, save the day, and save the world.

Some people would say that you will only get disappointment if you expect realism in fantasy fiction. But my opinion is that Kaladin has been set up since childhood at having a habit of excelling at whatever he tries to do, which is only balanced out by his really terrible luck. If Kaladin was bad at things and also the recipient of the universe dumping chull dung all over him, he wouldn't be the type of protagonist people like and root for. You hate the underdog characters, but the majority likes them, because they work -- they make stories fulfilling to most readers. At least there is one thing that Kaladin is bad at, and that is making one liners. I'll accept "Honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do" as cool because it's understated and mostly humble, but the whole "skies are mine" speech had me rolling my eyes all the way around.

Adolin states, back in WoK, how everyone his age and everyone younger has been married for a while. He also states how appalled everyone is he has reached his 23rd birthday without a spouse. My thought are Dalinar got away with marrying old because he was the second son: the continuity of his bloodline did not rest on him. Unfortunately, Adolin is the heir which implies the pressure to have a heir rest on his shoulder only. We never see anyone angsting over Renarin not being engaged to anyone.

I also loved how Shallan wished her ordeal down in the chasm may prompt Adolin to be more forward with her and how disappointed she was it turned being a mere hug How can people still think Adolin banged half the warcamp after that?

Harry was not only put into a bad situation by circumstances beyond his control, he was kept in the black with regards to key information on the pretense he was just a kid. I can get why he would become moody. Kaladin, unfortunately, has been moody years before tragedy hit him. As a boy, he yearned to be somewhere else and he internally fought with either following his father's humble dream of being a surgeon dedicating his life to healing people or his own dream of glory and battles where he gets to protect others through his military prowess. He first allowed himself to be convinced his father's way should be his dedicated path, but when forced with a first challenge, Tien being drafted to the army, he drops it right away to fall back towards his own true beliefs: take up the arms to protect the weakest. Kaladin just cannot stand being the passive by-stander, quietly working in the shadow, healing people which is mightily important, but not glorious. It didn't give him satisfaction as he didn't get to act against those who caused the injuries. Therefore, by his own nature, Kaladin is bound to think only him is capable of offering the protection those he perceives as "weak" need. He doesn't think Bridge 4 would make it without him and he may be right. Unfortunately, he may have developed a God-like complex where he thinks only he can save the world which is probably why I wish for him to end up in a situation where he doesn't. I don't want him to fail (because we have already explored this arc with him), but having him be forced to come face to face with someone else saving the day before he has time to do it would be... great to read. Growth doesn't always have to pass through "do or die" moments.

I do not expect realism when I read fantasy. I do not expect the world to resemble ours and I do expect magic or fantastic creatures which aren't possible in ours, but I do expect characters to be realistic within the realm of their universe. People are people, no matter the setting, and I personally prefer when character arcs remain plausible. I dislike when characters are seen to be majestically good at everything they try unless it is compensated by a massive flaw. The problem with Kaladin is his "flaws" are exterior to him. In other words, he fails because other characters sets him up to fail, not because of a character flaw. It makes him a victim and, as a reader, I tend to disbelieve such tragedy could happen to the same individual, over and over again. It is probably why I yearn for tragedy to never happen to Kaladin again and I wish for his arc to fall back within a more natural progression where he would work on his true flaws: prejudice and narrow-mindless. I wish for his future ordeal to happen because he his own flaws and not because Roshone will take vengeance on him or because he'll somehow get accused of murdering Sadeas. These are exterior hardships again. We've been there. The world cannot solely revolve around him.

On 7/15/2016 at 1:38 PM, sheep said:

I assumed that being a landlord, Jakamav would fulfill the traditional requirements of being one, which is owning land. They own land within a princedom, but the land is theirs (or their family's) and they pay taxes and send soldiers to the Highprince, but they get to make their own rules on their own land. That's what I assumed based on how the Sadeas princedom worked, and how Amaram worked for Sadeas. It would also explain why Alethkar was united only a generation ago. All that autonomy for the landlords and the Highprinces makes it difficult to have an organised centralised government, which they don't have even now with most of the Highprince of Commerce/Information/Whatever jobs vacant.

Renarin was being pressured to go into the Ardentia through most of WoK. He mentioned at one point that he didn't want that, and the other option was to be a citylord somewhere. From that I am guessing he doesn't own land and is not expecting to get anything unless Adolin dies. Yeah, the dahn ranking is a confusing thing when you have people like Jakamav who owns Shardplate, and holds land and the landlord title in his right, who happens to have the same rank as a second son who mooches off his dad and has no assets or prospects of his own. I can understand why all the lighteyes would hate Adolin when Renarin collects Plate and Blade within a few weeks of each other.

Well I supposed Jakamav does own land.. I suspect the house lords which follows Dalinar all owns various land within the princedom: not every parcel belongs to Dalinar. The Kholins must have their own lands, but the rest must belongs to lords faithful to them. A Highprince can only be as powerful as his lord allow him to be.

In the scene you are referring to, Renarin was acting like a spoiled child. He has had all the richness and the privilege in the world: he has the liberty to choose his own path. He could become an Ardent or he could become a a city lord, which is a prestigious position not requiring any military skills but he prefers to spit on it because it isn't soldering. In find his behavior quite disputable. Yes he has a handicap, yes he has a disability, yes it sucks, but it doesn't give him the right to look down on positions which are opened to him. City lord of a large city such as Kholinar must be a very respectable position.

We have seen Sadeas get very jealous over Adolin have a full set of Shards at 23 stating he should have had to wait several more years to get his hands onto his heirloom. Having Renarin get a full set without even having training must have suck for many bystanders.

Erunion · July 18, 2016

3 hours ago, maxal said:

As for Ann of Green Cables, well, I am Canadian. I would be denying my entire origins if I hadn't read every single book written by Lucy Maud Montgomery throughout my teenage years So yes, of course, I have did read Ann of Green Cables and its sequels. All of them. Every single one of them. Emily of the New Moon was quite good as well, according to my 14 years old self, of course

Fellow Canadian spotted! My sisters and mother made me watch Anne of Green Gables with them... Despite being a voracious reader, I haven't gotten around to reading them. I put this down to my being a guy on the west coast....

Quote

I also loved how Shallan wished her ordeal down in the chasm may prompt Adolin to be more forward with her and how disappointed she was it turned being a mere hug How can people still think Adolin banged half the warcamp after that?

I know, right? Does anyone still believe in Adolin the casanova? Because, as far as I'm concerned, that would be COMPLETELY out of character for him.

Quote

I don't want him to fail (because we have already explored this arc with him), but having him be forced to come face to face with someone else saving the day before he has time to do it would be... great to read. Growth doesn't always have to pass through "do or die" moments.

Especially if it were someone he was prejudiced against - having to overcome that prejudice to help someone ELSE save the world. To be the quiet one in the backdrop, doing the right thing and giving someone else the limelight, and more importantly, TRUSTING someone else (a lighteyes?) to do it right

Quote

In the scene you are referring to, Renarin was acting like a spoiled child. He has had all the richness and the privilege in the world: he has the liberty to choose his own path. He could become an Ardent or he could become a a city lord, which is a prestigious position not requiring any military skills but he prefers to spit on it because it isn't soldering. In find his behavior quite disputable. Yes he has a handicap, yes he has a disability, yes it sucks, but it doesn't give him the right to look down on positions which are opened to him. City lord of a large city such as Kholinar must be a very respectable position.

Don't forget - Renarin is a teenager. One who's been raised in a culture where he is surrounded by warriors, leaders, fighters. Where being a soldier is considered the greatest thing you can be.
As the son of one of the most powerful warlord Alethkar has ever seen, his disability must be a constant source of embarrassment and shame to him.

Is he acting the way he should? No. But he's acting the way most teenagers would under his circumstances.

maxal · July 18, 2016

16 hours ago, Erunion said:

Fellow Canadian spotted! My sisters and mother made me watch Anne of Green Gables with them... Despite being a voracious reader, I haven't gotten around to reading them. I put this down to my being a guy on the west coast....

So where are you from? Little love for Ann on the West coast? I have to say, even in French Quebec, Anne of Green Cables is a popular read. I'd be hard pressed to find one woman my age which hasn't read at least one Lucy Maud Montgomery book... It is impossible not to love Anne, an orphan girl which was shove from one family to another and asked to fulfill tasks while receiving little love until she was mistakenly sent to the green cables in the place of a boy... She could have grown up to be a retch, but she instead turned out being a spirited imaginative little girl who invented friends and family where there were none.

This being said, it may be more targeted towards female audience, though I have no idea why. Probably because it deals with day to day life from the perspective of a female character. Over here in Quebec, most people think those books are charming and exotic with their touch of British east coast 19th century life on a little grassy island. Quite unlike our own literature, especially the one written during the same years.

I just realized I have written Anne, Ann while completely forgetting how she insisted she was Ann with an e. :lol: :lol: :lol: This was a strange concept for us, French, as Anne doesn't write as Ann in French. When I first read it, I didn't understand :lol:

17 hours ago, Erunion said:

I know, right? Does anyone still believe in Adolin the casanova? Because, as far as I'm concerned, that would be COMPLETELY out of character for him.

Yes. There still are plenty of people who think Adolin is The Casanova. Ever been on Reddit? There is a thread right now where people wonder if Adolin ever made it pass first base with his relationships: it is surprising the number of commentators which thinks he has scored several home-runs Not only it would be out of character for him, it seriously clashes with his entire behavior within the book. Casanovas just don't behave as Adolin: they certainly do not blush when a girl gives them a peck on the cheek. They toy with girls like a cat playing with a mouse, they seduce them... Adolin is cute, adorable, but he is no charmer nor does he know how to seduce: he opened up his first date with Shallan my making a joke on Sebrarial's flatulence! Seriously Adolin? Flatulence? How old are you? As for idea of seducing a girl, it basically revolves around him smiling and telling tales of his bravery on the battlefield. Yawn.

Adolin is terrible at courtship, just plain terrible.

17 hours ago, Erunion said:

Especially if it were someone he was prejudiced against - having to overcome that prejudice to help someone ELSE save the world. To be the quiet one in the backdrop, doing the right thing and giving someone else the limelight, and more importantly, TRUSTING someone else (a lighteyes?) to do it right

Yep. I would love to read it mostly because it would make a neat growth arc for him. Nobody can be heroic 24/7, but then again Brandon loves to have his main protagonists be super-heroes, so it may be Kaladin will remain on his current trajectory.

17 hours ago, Erunion said:

Don't forget - Renarin is a teenager. One who's been raised in a culture where he is surrounded by warriors, leaders, fighters. Where being a soldier is considered the greatest thing you can be.
As the son of one of the most powerful warlord Alethkar has ever seen, his disability must be a constant source of embarrassment and shame to him.

Is he acting the way he should? No. But he's acting the way most teenagers would under his circumstances.

Well, he is 19 years old, not 14: I would expect his tantrum out of someone much younger. While I do not expect him to behave like a grown-up, I do expect him to be less detrimental towards other professions, especially considering at least two Highprinces aren't warriors. Being a warrior may be the greatest thing ever, but he has been encouraged to pursue a path which would suit him best: not everyone becomes a warrior. Alethkar has its score of individuals which choose not to take up the arms, even in the highest ranked. His family never used his lack of skills against him, instead trying to boost his self-esteem by supporting him. Dalinar never once mentioned or alluded to Renarin being a burden, even publicly stating how proud he was of him.

I just have a very hard time with Renarin's overall behavior: being young and disabled shouldn't give a free pass for being so judgmental towards other line of work.

Erunion · July 18, 2016

Ah - I'm from the Vancouver area
My family always watched the movies, but despite being in a family of voracious readers I don't know if they ever read the books...

And he really is! It's obvious! He only gets so many girls because he's the heir to the most powerful man in the kingdom....

It would be interesting!

I don't really see him as having a tantrum, nor of despising those professions. Merely as being someone who wants to be something he can't be, and hasn't come to grips with his disability.
On the other hand, it is entirely possible that I'm wrong. How long ago did Renarin first see his Spren? Could it be he refused the ardentia/etc. because he knew that the everstorm was coming? That he knew he had to be ready to fight?

sheep · July 19, 2016

On 16/07/2016 at 7:42 AM, Rasarr said:

As usual, all I can do is gush and gush over your images. Love your Mraize design, even if it doesn't match up with my mental image, and Teenage Rebel Adolin is just plain hilarous.

I wish everyone could draw so then we could gush and gush over each other's mental images.

What was your mental image of Mraize? I honestly didn't have one until I decided to make a sketch and read and re-read the passages from WoR. I'm so boring and obsessive that I try to keep my depictions canon-exact, and only use my own imagination where Brandon doesn't fill in the blanks. I even went searching through all the Words of Brandon to make sure I drew chouta the right way.

And yes, I really love silly AU's.

On 16/07/2016 at 9:51 PM, Erklitt said:

I'm no artist and don't know what I'm talking about, but the way I imagine him his scars would be more disfiguring. Like where they cross the eyebrow or the lips, they should have some real (destructive) impact on those said eyebrow and lips. Make a deep dent or something, you know what I mean? He seems just still too handsome for someone so scarred.

But still, thanks for giving that man a distinctive face in my mind!

It's hard to see in a small picture, but the scars look scarier up close. There are ways to make scars look deeply carved in, by shadowing and texturing the skin on either side, and I made the eyebrow patchy where scar crosses it. But in low-res to fit the width of this forum, it's difficult to tell. Admittedly, I could have made the scars even bigger, but Shallan's first impression of Mraize was "I think I know this guy" rather than "run away screaming". And he is described as so charmingly affable, refined, and smooth that I figured that it was safer to go light on the scars than to go all the way into Uruk-Hai territory and make him completely disfigured.

Mraize's Scars

Spoiler

It was my impression of Mraize as easy to like that influenced how I drew him. If I had read the book and thought he was evil or annoying like Roshone or Elhokar, I think I would have drawn him less handsome.

I will probably go back to the picture later and fix a few things, and adjust the lighting so the scars show up better. I have a habit of returning to older pieces months down the line, because immediately after finishing something, I am usually so tired of looking at it that I would do more harm than good attempting to fix it up.

On 17/07/2016 at 8:49 AM, CarolaDavar said:

Wow, the Maize and the teenager Adolin are great. Thanks for the tip, again. I will try to incorporate some of those things you told me about, and then i'll show you again. By the time I finish, I'll probably post it in the Stormlight Archive gallery.

I'm so glad you think i've been getting better! You have no idea how much that means to me!

Good luck!!!
Use lots of layers over what you already have, so you can delete them easily if you mess up. You can also do multiple paintings of the same thing, and compare different brush or lighting effects.

I think that anyone who looks at a lot of other artwork and experiments with recreating and combining what they've seen will inevitably improve. It's just a matter of time.

22 hours ago, maxal said:

I SO want to read teenage Adolin pre-Gavilar's death. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease Brandon. Just one quick snapshot, but pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease give us just a tiny bit of young Adolin. We never get to read characters such as him.

Dalinar pre-Gavilar's death was still Blackthorn Dalinar. He would have been more willing to lay the verbal smackdown on disobedient children than the moral and lead-by-example Bondsmith Dalinar - not that Adolin and Renarin were disobedient children. But at that point in time, Dalinar and Gavilar were exploring, and Elhokar was managing Kholinar. If Elhokar managed to get into trouble with Roshone, then Adolin would have had an equal (non-existent) level of parental supervision.

Well, something must have happened between teen Adolin and Tinalar to make him challenge for a Shard duel.

22 hours ago, maxal said:

As you once said, the beauty of SA is everyone is free to imagine the character as they see fit: your vision, my visions, other drawers visions, all are valid. I tend to picture him with a longer top and shorter side, but not with an undercut, but yours is great to. I mean, everyone loves vanilla ice cream: I love vanilla ice cream. I think the difference is the "statement". You hair do doesn't make one, as you say you designed for this reason, while in my own imagery, Adolin's hair are a statement by themselves. They are more crazy, but seriously, messy mop of hair could be a LOT of things.

As for Ann of Green Cables, well, I am Canadian. I would be denying my entire origins if I hadn't read every single book written by Lucy Maud Montgomery throughout my teenage years So yes, of course, I have did read Ann of Green Cables and its sequels. All of them. Every single one of them. Emily of the New Moon was quite good as well, according to my 14 years old self, of course

Is your mental image of his hair closer to this? It's the hipster undercut but with less styling pomade and no shaved sides. In fact, it's the same haircut as the classic vanilla Adolin hair in terms of length of and texture, just combed in a different way. It's messier, but would you say it's stylish?

Adolin's Hair part 2

Spoiler

This boring hairstyle is in fact much easier to draw than other styles, since I can quickly shorthand it into "chunks" of hair when doing quick cartoon sketches or multi-panel comics where drawing in the individual strands will make you hate a character after a while.

And speaking of mental imagery, I asked a couple of other Cosmere fan artists how buff and tall they thought Kaladin was, and there was no consensus, because most people had no idea. The whole "beaten and starved slave" thing makes a big impression on many, and that is why they draw Kaladin as skinny. I say that end of WoR Kaladin could outbench Adolin with or without stormlight.

Gilbert is more of an Adolin, even though he has Kaladin qualities. One of his main (and best) qualities is loyalty, and he loved Anne for years even when she refused him, and promised to come back and marry her after he finished doctor school. Kaladin had opportunities to do what he dreamed of and what he promised Laral as a kid, but he's no romantic figure. He is more like the Mr Darcy who is grumpy and rude to Elizabeth, because he thinks her family are all gold diggers. Gilbert's story is way more romantic, especially because he's the childhood friend rather than the dark and mysterious shirtless Fabio that appears on the covers of cheap romance novels. And you love hurt/comfort storylines, nothing wrong with that. According to the laws of narrative causality, Adolin has to have a near death experience, or pass out after week on ridgebark, for Shallan to come to her senses and rush to his bedside. :wub:

22 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin states, back in WoK, how everyone his age and everyone younger has been married for a while. He also states how appalled everyone is he has reached his 23rd birthday without a spouse. My thought are Dalinar got away with marrying old because he was the second son: the continuity of his bloodline did not rest on him. Unfortunately, Adolin is the heir which implies the pressure to have a heir rest on his shoulder only. We never see anyone angsting over Renarin not being engaged to anyone.

I also loved how Shallan wished her ordeal down in the chasm may prompt Adolin to be more forward with her and how disappointed she was it turned being a mere hug How can people still think Adolin banged half the warcamp after that?

Regarding none of the Kholins angsting over Renarin being unmarried when Adolin can't land a wife - Adolin's mental monologue is aware that Renarin is weird to girls, but he and Dalinar don't angst over it, because it would require admitting that Renarin's habits are weird and there's something off about him that isn't just the blood weakness. They know he has been diagnosed with epilepsy, but not the autism.

Quote

“I know,” Renarin said. His voice was measured, controlled. He always paused before he replied to a question, as if testing the words in his mind. Some women Adolin knew said Renarin’s ways made them feel as if he were dissecting them with his mind. They’d shiver when they spoke of him, though Adolin had never found his younger brother the least bit discomforting.
Chapter 12, "Unity", Way of Kings

Adolin is obvious unicorn bait, but I still think he has kissed at least a few girls. He doesn't back off or push Shallan away screaming "GET THEE TO A NUNNERY, WITCH!" when she kisses him. It's pretty clear that he enjoys it, and suggests that if he is too prude to make the first move, he wouldn't reject a girl that he likes (and he likes all of them, at least at the beginning of every courtship) if she makes the first move, when no one is looking.

For someone who slept in a cupboard and was abused and mistreated by his aunt and uncle his entire childhood, Harry is remarkably sane. The treatment has nothing on Kaladin's slave life, but Harry was raised in 1990's Muggle England, and the life where a young boy is fed on his cousin's leftovers and sometimes forgotten about altogether (at one point Harry during summer holidays is living off snacks sent by owl) is extremely shocking.

Now that I think about it, young Kal's childhood moodiness comes from an internal and unconscious resentment of authority, which carries over to adult Kaladin and turns him into a surly, grumpy soldier. As a kid, his unhappiness was not from being forced to be a surgeon, because ultimately his parents weren't going to force him, but being told he has to be something and make something of his life. He doesn't even know what he wants to be (before Tien's recruitment) but the thought of doing what he's told is something he dislikes, unless he personally agrees with the decision.

Quote

In that moment, Kal knew his fate had been sealed. If Brightlord Wistiow had demanded it, Kal would go to Kharbranth. He turned and walked from the surgery room, passing out into the sunlight, not saying another word to his father.
He sat down on the steps. What did he want? He didn’t know. That was the problem. Glory, honor, the things Laral had said…none of those really mattered to him. But there had been something there when he’d held the quarterstaff. And now, suddenly, the decision had been taken from him.
Chapter 16, "Cocoons", Way of Kings

YMMV if it's a personality trait or a character flaw. Some people cheer on Kaladin's indepedence when he rejects expected social norms and does what he wants, and sometimes it is pretty cool, like bullying Gaz and Lamaril and organising Bridge Four into a team, but to me the same characteristic makes him needlessly abrasive. Kaladin is no diplomat. :rolleyes:

And Kaladin's depression could be said to be a character flaw as well. It is what limits his power, and combined with his internalised bitterness with authority figures, ended up stripping him of his powers. It's not an external or narrative-contrived plot point to nudge him into self-realisation and character development, but rather something from within that pushes him into mental low points that he has to actively struggle out of. If you are concerned that Kaladin is too overpowered, his depression could be the trait that is supposed to balance it out (it's up to your interpretation if it actually works, of course), the curse to his boon. In fact, mental illness or having atypical thought patterns in most of the Knight Radiants we've seen so far might be the narrative solution to keeping the Radiants away from the label of "god modding", as RPers call it.

22 hours ago, maxal said:

Well I supposed Jakamav does own land.. I suspect the house lords which follows Dalinar all owns various land within the princedom: not every parcel belongs to Dalinar. The Kholins must have their own lands, but the rest must belongs to lords faithful to them. A Highprince can only be as powerful as his lord allow him to be.

And a King can only be as powerful as the Highprinces allow him to be. And that king is Elhokar. :rolleyes:

Is suspect that in Renarin's life there were very few things he wasn't allowed to do, outside of combat training, and only because he might actually die if he has a seizure and gets hit in the head when he's not in control of himself. And added to that, he has so few expectations placed upon him by his indulgent father that a suggestion that he do something with his life, like get a job as a citylord or ardent didn't come across as a genuine expectation, but a soft recommendation that he can just say "no thanks" to with no consequences. Since Dalinar isn't giving him ultimatums, his impression of the situation is not incorrect. I wouldn't say he looks down on the positions; I'm sure he's perfectly aware that they are respectable jobs for a highborn young man. He just refuses them because they aren't the one thing he really wants. Renarin would rather wash dirty dishes used by ex-slaves instead of being assigned a permanent desk job.

It says a lot about his character. And what everyone, from the readers, and the characters like Sadeas, and the characters like Adolin, make of the whole thing says a lot about them too.

19 hours ago, Erunion said:

Don't forget - Renarin is a teenager. One who's been raised in a culture where he is surrounded by warriors, leaders, fighters. Where being a soldier is considered the greatest thing you can be.
As the son of one of the most powerful warlord Alethkar has ever seen, his disability must be a constant source of embarrassment and shame to him.

Is he acting the way he should? No. But he's acting the way most teenagers would under his circumstances.

In Alethkar, there's no distinction of "teenager" as the interval period between child and adult. Shallan and Laral, who are teenagers by modern standards, are treated as adults in their society, regardless of personal levels of maturity.

I think the "my life sucks baww" impression of Renarin's character stems from the fact that even though he is a legal adult, he has none of the accomplishments that society regards as what makes a man a man. In the beginning of WoK, everyone is freaking out that Dalinar, the legendary Blackthorn has gone weak. Sadeas makes pointed comments on him going weak. Adolin is mentally panicking at the thought. If you have an eReader and can search for the keyword "weak" it's all over those first chapters starting from Chapter 12, "Unity". Renarin's entire life consists of being considered weak, with not even a glorious past to hold up to the critics. And that is why some readers dislike Renarin. His angst is justified, but to some people, it's just too much angst for them to stomach. To others, it makes him endearing and relatable.

Art Time

With all that discussion of Renarin, why not start with a picture of Renarin?

Truthwatcher

Spoiler

Spoilery title, hahah. It's Renarin, his metal box thingy, and his spren Glys.

I draw Renarin as much younger looking than Adolin. He's not as handsome, and I try to keep his features softer and more childish.

I drew Glys as something in between Pattern and Wyndle. His "face" is like Pattern's, symmetrical and made of 10 overlapping glowing green leaves instead of Pattern's eye-twisting fractals. He has floating tendrils and sprouty vines like Wyndle, but I took a lot of influence from the description of Ym's spren. I have no idea what Ym is, but he's either Edgedancer or Truthwatcher with his healing magic, so I tried to include that.

Quote

Something moved in the dimness to his right. Ym glanced in that direction, but didn’t change his posture. The spren had been coming more often lately—specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam. He did not know its type, as he had never seen one like it before.

It moved across the surface of the workbench, slinking closer. When it stopped, light crept upward from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their burrows. When it moved again, those withdrew.

Ym brushed wooden scraps off the bench for later sweeping, then set the last on the bench near the spren. It shied away, like a reflection off a mirror—translucent, really just a shimmer of light.

He withdrew his hand and waited. The spren inched forward—tentative, like a cremling creeping out of its crack after a storm. It stopped, and light grew upward from it in the shape of tiny sprouts. Such an odd sight.

Interlude 2, "Ym", Words of Radiance

Just imagine that in this picture Glys is whispering to Renarin, "Those crazy visions are what will come to pass unless you listen to me". Renarin is creeped out but he can't tell anyone, and the only thing he can do is keep opening and closing his little metal box.

Stormlight Noir - Veil in Amaram's Office

Spoiler

After drawing Mraize, which was influenced by classic trench coat and tommy gun mobsters, I felt like the whole Ghostbloods storyline could fit well with a film noir aesthetic. Lots of sneaking around at night, hats and trenchcoats, rainy streets and dramatic spherelight. Replace spanreeds with typewriters and we'd have something awesome.

You think I forgot about the headband?

Spoiler

Remember that headband from Michael Whelan's first draft cover of WoR? Kaladin remembers.

People think Kaladin is lanky-fit from his days starving as a slave, but apparently he is very muscular, which is hard to believe since you can't get huge muscles unless you are eating a lot of protein, which bridgeman gruel and soulcast stew doesn't really have.

On another thought, how tall is Kaladin anyway? If Rock is 7 feet tall, how tall is Kaladin? How tall are Alethis?

For the purposes of convenience, I make Kaladin around 6'5", otherwise his head would be cut off by the top of the frame in group pictures.

Erunion · July 19, 2016

@sheep Your take on Renarin is pretty much mine. Well said!

And awesome pictures

Jondesu · July 19, 2016

@sheep, I personally picture Kaladin about 6'2", not crazy tall but just enough that he sticks out on the battlefield a little. Muscular, but not bodybuilder muscular, more like a classic tough bodyguard maybe. Not top heavy, all muscles in the arms but skinny in the legs, but more well balanced and just...powerful looking. I don't think anyone would look at him and want to pick a fight, at least when he's not looking like a slave. I remember how easily he stood down the soldier who tried to take the bridgemen's water. You don't do that if you're not at all physically imposing, even if you're no Ahnold.

jW

Erunion · July 19, 2016

3 hours ago, Jondesu said:

@sheep, I personally picture Kaladin about 6'2", not crazy tall but just enough that he sticks out on the battlefield a little. Muscular, but not bodybuilder muscular, more like a classic tough bodyguard maybe. Not top heavy, all muscles in the arms but skinny in the legs, but more well balanced and just...powerful looking. I don't think anyone would look at him and want to pick a fight, at least when he's not looking like a slave. I remember how easily he stood down the soldier who tried to take the bridgemen's water. You don't do that if you're not at all physically imposing, even if you're no Ahnold.

jW

With lower gravity, I think the Alethi are a bit taller than that, so their 6'5 is equivalent to our 6'2. Maybe.
But Kaladin definitely is built like an athlete. Strong, overall well built. Muscles in the legs, back and shoulders. Strong, but not exceptional arms/pectorals. Imposing, but not bulky. Slim, but not slight or skinny.
He had an excellent fighter/martial artist physique from the army, then lost a bit of it through 6 months a slave, then rebuilt muscle (especially shoulders/back/legs) hauling bridges, especially with Rock's extra rations.

Add to that an intense (grumpy) stare, and Kaladin is NOT someone you'd want to mess with.

**Rasarr** · July 19, 2016

@sheep, I do love that Veil Noir aesthetic! And your idea of Truthwatcher spren is neat, an has now become my headcanon. And Kaladin... oh gods, that headband. That horrid, horrid headband... Brrr. You have a good point with his bulk, though.

As for your question about Mraize, I've always imagined him with more triangular face and sharper features. Also, don't Thaylens have those long, tuck-behind-your-ears eyebrows?

Argel · July 19, 2016

I'm really loving the Renarin artwork. They are giving me a different, better sense of his character. Well done!!

CarolaDavar · July 19, 2016

Wow, your Renarin pics are so good! (I mena, he looks weird with his glasses off, and that makes it realistic to me, because I think most people look weird without their glasses on. That is, if they had glasses in the first place.)

Anyway. I tried implementing a few of your ideas. . .

Spoiler

. . .Thoughts?

maxal · July 20, 2016

On 7/18/2016 at 7:51 PM, Erunion said:

Ah - I'm from the Vancouver area
My family always watched the movies, but despite being in a family of voracious readers I don't know if they ever read the books...

And he really is! It's obvious! He only gets so many girls because he's the heir to the most powerful man in the kingdom....

It would be interesting!

I don't really see him as having a tantrum, nor of despising those professions. Merely as being someone who wants to be something he can't be, and hasn't come to grips with his disability.
On the other hand, it is entirely possible that I'm wrong. How long ago did Renarin first see his Spren? Could it be he refused the ardentia/etc. because he knew that the everstorm was coming? That he knew he had to be ready to fight?

Ah well I am from the other side of the country, in Montreal There were various TV series following Anne when I was a teenager: I recall the books were popular read. Many people would read them.

Yes about Renarin but as Sheep points out not every reader will react the same to him. For my part, his level of angst seems disproportionate considering his current predicament and his situation which I do not consider to be as dire as he makes it out to be. Not being able to be a soldier because of a sickness he doesn't control isn't the end of the world: a lot of people aren't able to be what they initially wished to be due to them lacking the required skills. Renarin, at least, has a valid reason to explain his lack of capacity with soldering: imagine how the kid who is healthy, strong, but just bad at swordsmanship must feel? How does the kid which has no reason to back himself up must feel if Renarin, which has the best excuse in the world feels so diminished?

Renarin is a character I have had traditionally many problems with. It isn't I dislike him, I just find it hard to emphasize with him and this scene is one I find hard to deal with.

As for his spren, we do not know exactly when he has had Glys. I initially thought he must have said the first oath in between chapter 14 and chapter 28, where he obviously hear the screams, but a recent WoB has stated he has been a proto-Radiant since longer then it was apparent. My reading tells me it was apparent in chapter 28, so before. I am thus tempted to say he has started his bond at some point in WoK. It could be before, but truly it is impossible to guess at this point in time. It may be his reasons to refuse the Ardentia was Glys. I think I'd like it if it were the case because it would give a fulsome reason behind Renarin acting spoiled.

On 7/18/2016 at 9:26 PM, sheep said:

Dalinar pre-Gavilar's death was still Blackthorn Dalinar. He would have been more willing to lay the verbal smackdown on disobedient children than the moral and lead-by-example Bondsmith Dalinar - not that Adolin and Renarin were disobedient children. But at that point in time, Dalinar and Gavilar were exploring, and Elhokar was managing Kholinar. If Elhokar managed to get into trouble with Roshone, then Adolin would have had an equal (non-existent) level of parental supervision.

Well, something must have happened between teen Adolin and Tinalar to make him challenge for a Shard duel.

OMG: I so want to read this scene... In my head, you have very young fopish Adolin who looks like a silly idiot, but a silly idiot with a brand new Shardplate which others think may be easy to win. Tinalar wanted a Shardplate for himself and he thought he'd goat the kid into foolhardily agree to duel for Shards. We know duel for Shards are very rare, so Adolin getting into one, at 16, was probably out of normal.

And I so want to read Dalinar's reaction when he hears about it I also really wanted to know which weapon he used to defeat Tinalar... Did Dalinar let him used Oathbringer or did Gavilar have to step in to give his nephew a Blade to fight with?

On 7/18/2016 at 9:26 PM, sheep said:

Is your mental image of his hair closer to this? It's the hipster undercut but with less styling pomade and no shaved sides. In fact, it's the same haircut as the classic vanilla Adolin hair in terms of length of and texture, just combed in a different way. It's messier, but would you say it's stylish?

Adolin's Hair part 2

Reveal hidden contents

This boring hairstyle is in fact much easier to draw than other styles, since I can quickly shorthand it into "chunks" of hair when doing quick cartoon sketches or multi-panel comics where drawing in the individual strands will make you hate a character after a while.

And speaking of mental imagery, I asked a couple of other Cosmere fan artists how buff and tall they thought Kaladin was, and there was no consensus, because most people had no idea. The whole "beaten and starved slave" thing makes a big impression on many, and that is why they draw Kaladin as skinny. I say that end of WoR Kaladin could outbench Adolin with or without stormlight.

Gilbert is more of an Adolin, even though he has Kaladin qualities. One of his main (and best) qualities is loyalty, and he loved Anne for years even when she refused him, and promised to come back and marry her after he finished doctor school. Kaladin had opportunities to do what he dreamed of and what he promised Laral as a kid, but he's no romantic figure. He is more like the Mr Darcy who is grumpy and rude to Elizabeth, because he thinks her family are all gold diggers. Gilbert's story is way more romantic, especially because he's the childhood friend rather than the dark and mysterious shirtless Fabio that appears on the covers of cheap romance novels. And you love hurt/comfort storylines, nothing wrong with that. According to the laws of narrative causality, Adolin has to have a near death experience, or pass out after week on ridgebark, for Shallan to come to her senses and rush to his bedside.

It is closer because it is more messy: too many people comment on his unruly mop of hair for it not to be tussled around.

Well, I certainly think the "beaten and starving" slave has been taken up to an unrealistic level: Kaladin has been a slave for a few months and he certainly hasn't been starved the whole way through. A starved slave cannot do work and despite his ill-treatment, Kaladin does comment on how he hasn't lost much of his musculature. People also love to point out how hard he trained prior to having been made a slave: he can't be a skinny bones and skin guy

My thoughts are Adolin's training is not as complete as Kaladin... Adolin has been prancing around in a Shardplate since he was a teenager He may be a trained soldier, he remains a Shardbearer fully protected in his indestructible shell. Also, apart from his daily dueling practice where he does controlled regular moves in a secure environment and the occasional gem hunt where he hits a few Parshendis with the same difficulty my 3 years old son has tossing around his stuffed animals , he doesn't seem to be doing "other" physical training. In comparison, Kaladin has used to train himself, hard. Just look at when he decided he wanted to improve his "bridge carrying strategies": the guy is a machine! He also is used to use up his own body whenever he is doing work and while he may have the advantage of stormlight, it was unconscious use at this time and it still isn't the equivalent of a Shardplate. I'd say Kaladin is a much more versatile athlete than Adolin and I wouldn't be surprised if Adolin, once removed from his "protection", would realize his limits are not quite what he thought they would be.

Well, Kaladin certainly isn't romantic, but the Gilbert and Anne romance did start off by them yelling at each other... Though in fact, Gilbert has always been infatuated by Anne: he just didn't know how to approach her. Alright, I do like hurt and comfort When it is well done, it is adorable and cute, but it gets easily badly done which is a problem. I never heard of the laws of narrative causality... Adolin could or could not have a near death moment: technically he has had many, but none turned out into arcs for him. There is a trope for a character who sits by the bed of the injured... I forgot the name. It was cute.

The ridgebark is something I totally see Adolin doing: it would be in character for him to mistreat himself in such way. Come to think of it, we have seen ample proof Adolin would care for Shallan should anything befall to her. After the Plateau fight, he saw to her before he saw to his injured self, giving her all of his blankets and treating as if he physical comfort mattered more than his own. My point thus is, isn't there anyone who will actually care a little for Adolin? Can Shallan do it? Is it just myself or is it strange the man who actually got injured for real, as opposed to simply being tired, doesn't seem to be getting his rest?

On 7/18/2016 at 9:26 PM, sheep said:

Regarding none of the Kholins angsting over Renarin being unmarried when Adolin can't land a wife - Adolin's mental monologue is aware that Renarin is weird to girls, but he and Dalinar don't angst over it, because it would require admitting that Renarin's habits are weird and there's something off about him that isn't just the blood weakness. They know he has been diagnosed with epilepsy, but not the autism.

Or it could be, as a second son, Renarin simply does not have any pressure to marry. After all, Dalinar didn't seem to have had any either. I also doubt Alethkar has any idea what autism may be, so Renarin is bound to being tell he's simply weird.

On 7/18/2016 at 9:26 PM, sheep said:

Adolin is obvious unicorn bait, but I still think he has kissed at least a few girls. He doesn't back off or push Shallan away screaming "GET THEE TO A NUNNERY, WITCH!" when she kisses him. It's pretty clear that he enjoys it, and suggests that if he is too prude to make the first move, he wouldn't reject a girl that he likes (and he likes all of them, at least at the beginning of every courtship) if she makes the first move, when no one is looking.

For someone who slept in a cupboard and was abused and mistreated by his aunt and uncle his entire childhood, Harry is remarkably sane. The treatment has nothing on Kaladin's slave life, but Harry was raised in 1990's Muggle England, and the life where a young boy is fed on his cousin's leftovers and sometimes forgotten about altogether (at one point Harry during summer holidays is living off snacks sent by owl) is extremely shocking.

Now that I think about it, young Kal's childhood moodiness comes from an internal and unconscious resentment of authority, which carries over to adult Kaladin and turns him into a surly, grumpy soldier. As a kid, his unhappiness was not from being forced to be a surgeon, because ultimately his parents weren't going to force him, but being told he has to be something and make something of his life. He doesn't even know what he wants to be (before Tien's recruitment) but the thought of doing what he's told is something he dislikes, unless he personally agrees with the decision.

YMMV if it's a personality trait or a character flaw. Some people cheer on Kaladin's indepedence when he rejects expected social norms and does what he wants, and sometimes it is pretty cool, like bullying Gaz and Lamaril and organising Bridge Four into a team, but to me the same characteristic makes him needlessly abrasive. Kaladin is no diplomat.

And Kaladin's depression could be said to be a character flaw as well. It is what limits his power, and combined with his internalised bitterness with authority figures, ended up stripping him of his powers. It's not an external or narrative-contrived plot point to nudge him into self-realisation and character development, but rather something from within that pushes him into mental low points that he has to actively struggle out of. If you are concerned that Kaladin is too overpowered, his depression could be the trait that is supposed to balance it out (it's up to your interpretation if it actually works, of course), the curse to his boon. In fact, mental illness or having atypical thought patterns in most of the Knight Radiants we've seen so far might be the narrative solution to keeping the Radiants away from the label of "god modding", as RPers call it

There is no way of telling how much kissing experience has or not. All I can say is why it is probable he may have kissed other girls, his reaction to his first kiss with Shallan indicates there hasn't been many of those... You just don't say "wow" to a kiss if you had many.

I agree about Harry... It is strange you can have a character which should totally be non-functional such as Harry and yet be functional but at other times have characters who should be minimally functional, such as Renarin, but aren't.

I agree about Kaladin, he has serious issues with authority. He simply cannot accept having someone tell him what he should be doing and, unfortunately, the army didn't break down the habit, oddly enough. I suspect it may be linked to how he was raised, without many limits nor rules, having free afternoons to leisure around at an age where he should have been doing something more productive. We do not allow our teenagers to be idle all day long, they are required to attend to school such as young Alethi are required to either train for an apprenticeship or work in the fields. No society except the very rich has allowed its young people to simply do nothing all afternoon long. Spending a few hours to study in the evening doesn't compensate so it is quite probably Kaladin's lack of rules within his upbringing has made him believe none were required. Not all rules are good, many are stupid, but you can't react stubbornly each time you are told to do something. Your liberty ends where someone else's liberty starts: Kaladin can ignore orders, but he then have to suffer the consequences which he cannot accept.

Of course, being rebellious is great when you are faced with undesirable conditions requiring others to take action, such as Bridge 4. However, when you live within a soceity, you can't always reject every form of authority, if you do, you are an anarchist. In other words, you have to choose your battles, which ones to fight and which ones not to fight. Kaladin isn't doing it, he fights everything, all at once and because he is a darkeyes, thus oppressed, he sees himself as justified to do so. Unfortunately, there is nothing I dislike more than having a character using an existing condition as an excuse to justify every single actions.

I personally do not read his depression as a character flaw: it can't be a character flaw if it is outside your control and if it isn't something you can improve or heal from. It is more of an handicap than a flaw which again bothers me, because as the story currently is written, Kaladin has almost no wrong: he is a pure victim of circumstances. Other characters have obvious character flaws, but Kaladin just seems to have not many. The only one I can definitely pinned on him is narrow-mindness so well there's that, at least.

On 7/18/2016 at 9:26 PM, sheep said:

And a King can only be as powerful as the Highprinces allow him to be. And that king is Elhokar.

Is suspect that in Renarin's life there were very few things he wasn't allowed to do, outside of combat training, and only because he might actually die if he has a seizure and gets hit in the head when he's not in control of himself. And added to that, he has so few expectations placed upon him by his indulgent father that a suggestion that he do something with his life, like get a job as a citylord or ardent didn't come across as a genuine expectation, but a soft recommendation that he can just say "no thanks" to with no consequences. Since Dalinar isn't giving him ultimatums, his impression of the situation is not incorrect. I wouldn't say he looks down on the positions; I'm sure he's perfectly aware that they are respectable jobs for a highborn young man. He just refuses them because they aren't the one thing he really wants. Renarin would rather wash dirty dishes used by ex-slaves instead of being assigned a permanent desk job.

It says a lot about his character. And what everyone, from the readers, and the characters like Sadeas, and the characters like Adolin, make of the whole thing says a lot about them too.

The Highprinces are happy to let Elhokar be their king: he allows them to do as they wish and they are getting rich picking up gem hearts on the Shattered Plains. Another king may have different ideas, hence they are content with Elhokar.

Renarin has always been a difficult character for me to understand. It just doesn't add up to me. I do not know what it says about myself, as a person, but I do think I have a hard time taking his disability as a blank pocket holder to justify his every actions. He was wrong to look down on other paths and if he had a valid reason to do so, then he should have voiced it. His jest made him sound like a spoiled child and while I am convinced he isn't one, this particular passage doesn't make him shine under the best light.

This being said, I do not think he was allowed to do as he wished growing up. I get the feeling the Kholin boys grew up in a very sheltered environment. It may not be obvious when reading Renarin because his disability directly impacts his abilities to develop successful relationships: you do expect him to struggle there. But Adolin? I suspect the boys probably were each other's friends all through the most defining part of their childhood which could provide an explanation as to why Adolin is so bad at developing relationships. I somehow get the impression Renarin's family used up his disability as an excuse for keeping him away from any challenging or meaningful tasks thus making him be ridiculously proud of himself for washing dirty pots. There are plenty of people having more crippling disabilities than Renarin who refuses to let those stop them, fighting to find other ways to achieve their goals. It may be, while being loving and supportive, Renarin's family didn't do much in trying to help learn to compensate for his disability, instead insisting on over-sheltering him which ultimately led to the scene I do not like.

So what does my reaction to the character say about myself?

On 7/18/2016 at 9:26 PM, sheep said:

In Alethkar, there's no distinction of "teenager" as the interval period between child and adult. Shallan and Laral, who are teenagers by modern standards, are treated as adults in their society, regardless of personal levels of maturity.

I think the "my life sucks baww" impression of Renarin's character stems from the fact that even though he is a legal adult, he has none of the accomplishments that society regards as what makes a man a man. In the beginning of WoK, everyone is freaking out that Dalinar, the legendary Blackthorn has gone weak. Sadeas makes pointed comments on him going weak. Adolin is mentally panicking at the thought. If you have an eReader and can search for the keyword "weak" it's all over those first chapters starting from Chapter 12, "Unity". Renarin's entire life consists of being considered weak, with not even a glorious past to hold up to the critics. And that is why some readers dislike Renarin. His angst is justified, but to some people, it's just too much angst for them to stomach. To others, it makes him endearing and relatable.

What could make Renarin be more endearing to me? Well... I'd would love to see Renarin strop sulking over what he cannot do and start trying to focus on what he can do. I'd love to see him solve his issues using his own personal set of skills which may be different, but no doubt useful. I would love for him to come and show everyone battle prowess isn't always required nor is it always the solution.

18 hours ago, Erunion said:

With lower gravity, I think the Alethi are a bit taller than that, so their 6'5 is equivalent to our 6'2. Maybe.
But Kaladin definitely is built like an athlete. Strong, overall well built. Muscles in the legs, back and shoulders. Strong, but not exceptional arms/pectorals. Imposing, but not bulky. Slim, but not slight or skinny.
He had an excellent fighter/martial artist physique from the army, then lost a bit of it through 6 months a slave, then rebuilt muscle (especially shoulders/back/legs) hauling bridges, especially with Rock's extra rations.

Add to that an intense (grumpy) stare, and Kaladin is NOT someone you'd want to mess with.

Yes. I think this is the best description. Kaladin is imposing, but not body builder imposing. He is very tall and he has a strong upper body strength which isn't going to encourage people to mess up with him.

Vander · July 20, 2016

MAXAL!

I thought all the people who were regulars before had gone inactive... I was sad.

sheep · July 20, 2016

On 19/07/2016 at 0:28 PM, Jondesu said:

@sheep, I personally picture Kaladin about 6'2", not crazy tall but just enough that he sticks out on the battlefield a little. Muscular, but not bodybuilder muscular, more like a classic tough bodyguard maybe. Not top heavy, all muscles in the arms but skinny in the legs, but more well balanced and just...powerful looking. I don't think anyone would look at him and want to pick a fight, at least when he's not looking like a slave. I remember how easily he stood down the soldier who tried to take the bridgemen's water. You don't do that if you're not at all physically imposing, even if you're no Ahnold.

jW

I originally put Kaladin at what I thought was a tall but normal-ish for Earth height, as some other artists were putting Kaladin at 6'9" because apparently he is only a few fingers shorter than Rock (what the heck is a finger???), and being someone who is not tall like that, I just cannot wrap my head around a person being that tall. And it turns out that in some areas and some countries such as the Netherlands, 6'2" is not considered tall because it is the average height for young men under 25. So I gave up and settled on something that is taller than average for most people, but not too far into walking beanstalk territory. I know it's a fantasy series and most people don't care, but I thought about it a lot because I am crazy and want to get things right. Even though I draw in a stylised style, I aim to stay close to realistic human proportions.

Yeah...I can't imagine Kaladin as an Ahnold. Ever played the game Street Fighter? The proportions on those characters (Guile, Nash, pretty much everyone, girls included) was something I tried to avoid. To me, Kaladin has what they call functional strength, and he is fit and has those veiny arms, but a lot of intimidation-power comes from his scary eyes. I try to draw them as best as I can when I know my art style can be cutesy and Disney-ish. So if you would be too afraid to pick a fight with my mental image and depictions of Kaladin (relevant picture in the art pile at the end of this post), then I feel like I've done a decent job of capturing his character.

On 19/07/2016 at 4:33 PM, Erunion said:

With lower gravity, I think the Alethi are a bit taller than that, so their 6'5 is equivalent to our 6'2. Maybe.
But Kaladin definitely is built like an athlete. Strong, overall well built. Muscles in the legs, back and shoulders. Strong, but not exceptional arms/pectorals. Imposing, but not bulky. Slim, but not slight or skinny.
He had an excellent fighter/martial artist physique from the army, then lost a bit of it through 6 months a slave, then rebuilt muscle (especially shoulders/back/legs) hauling bridges, especially with Rock's extra rations.

Add to that an intense (grumpy) stare, and Kaladin is NOT someone you'd want to mess with.

There must be something about Rosharan gravity if Shallan thinks she is short for a woman.

Quote

“Remove your top, slave,” she commanded.
Kaladin stared her right in her blue eyes and felt an almost irresistible urge to spit at her. No. No, he couldn’t afford that. Not when there was a chance. He pulled his arms out of the sacklike clothing, letting it fall to his waist, exposing his chest.
Despite eight months as a slave, he was far better muscled than the others. “A large number of scars for one so young,” the noblewoman said thoughtfully. “You are a military man?”
Chapter 6, "Bridge Four", Way of Kings

Kaladin actually spent 8 months as a slave and even though he was punished worse than regular slaves for his escape attempts and being disobedient, somehow he is still the most physically fit. That is why there is so much confusion about Kaladin's physique - bodybuilders and weightlifters have to maintain a high protein diet even on their off-season if they want to keep their muscles. If you're starving, they're the first thing to go.

On 19/07/2016 at 4:43 PM, Rasarr said:

@sheep, I do love that Veil Noir aesthetic! And your idea of Truthwatcher spren is neat, an has now become my headcanon. And Kaladin... oh gods, that headband. That horrid, horrid headband... Brrr. You have a good point with his bulk, though.

As for your question about Mraize, I've always imagined him with more triangular face and sharper features. Also, don't Thaylens have those long, tuck-behind-your-ears eyebrows?

The headband is cool! It keeps hair out of his eyes and covers up the shash brand.

In my head, Mraize had a smooth and slick personality but since he is battle-scarred and carries a dartgun (like a pocket pistol in a world without gunpowder) he seemed too tough to have sharp features. It would have made him look more delicate, and he is not the kind of care to worry about getting his hands dirty. That is why I drew him with his sleeves rolled up in the character portrait. The sharp features I reserved for Wit/Hoid.

Thaylens do have long white eyebrows. The crew of the Wind's Pleasure were Thaylens, and Shallan would have recognised Mraize as one immediately, but she didn't point it out in the Ghostbloods chapter. I can only assume that Mraize trims them off and dyes them, just as Tyn uses the eyedrops to change her eye colour. Big white Thaylen eyebrows would be unusual and make for a bad disguise in Alethkar.

23 hours ago, Argel said:

I'm really loving the Renarin artwork. They are giving me a different, better sense of his character. Well done!!

Thanks! I know it is kinda weird, but when I do a cartoony sketch of a character, I try to translate my thoughts and impressions of their personality into a visual image - and it becomes my version of a character analysis. When I draw several drafts of a character, incorporating details I know about them from the narrative, and come out with a finished picture that screams "Yes, I am Wolly Winka" , I feel like I know them better. It helps me understand characters better if I can translate text to a visual image, and if it has helped other people, then I am glad. I think this paragraph makes sense if you skip to the bottom of this post and look at my character art.

In that picture Renarin I tried to depict Renarin as young and vulnerable, and conflicted - he holds his autism box, something that he knows makes him different, and reminds him of his blood weakness, but it is comforting to him. And the spren that only he can see and hear and whispers things to him, healed his eyes. And even though it is creepy and probably a Voidbringer, it is somehow comforting to have, too. Glys is wrapping his tendrils around Renarin in a spren hug.

18 hours ago, CarolaDavar said:

Wow, your Renarin pics are so good! (I mena, he looks weird with his glasses off, and that makes it realistic to me, because I think most people look weird without their glasses on. That is, if they had glasses in the first place.)

Anyway. I tried implementing a few of your ideas. . .

. . .Thoughts?

It looks a lot better now! The jewels look way improved.
I think you could add a little more shadowing under and around the base of the gems, in order to show that they are hanging on top of the hand. Right now, from far away, they look kinda like they are growing out of the hand. You could add a bit more shadow underneath the chains as well. And as a side note, if you want to portray a flat, reflective, polished surface like a gem or polished metal, don't be afraid to use a sharp highlight. Reflective, shiny objects reflect more light, and facets facing the light source should have a highlight.

An example of this would be in this depiction of a gemheart.

Gemheart Example

Spoiler

It's a very stylised picture, but the sharp highlights give the impresion that it is very shiny and made of sharp edges, like a crystal. You've done highlights on the tops of the gems, but you could try use a more opaque white instead to make them "blingy". And you could do that to the gold settings on the gems, and the soulcaster wrist band. Pretty much everything but the skin.

14 hours ago, maxal said:

OMG: I so want to read this scene... In my head, you have very young fopish Adolin who looks like a silly idiot, but a silly idiot with a brand new Shardplate which others think may be easy to win. Tinalar wanted a Shardplate for himself and he thought he'd goat the kid into foolhardily agree to duel for Shards. We know duel for Shards are very rare, so Adolin getting into one, at 16, was probably out of normal.

And I so want to read Dalinar's reaction when he hears about it I also really wanted to know which weapon he used to defeat Tinalar... Did Dalinar let him used Oathbringer or did Gavilar have to step in to give his nephew a Blade to fight with?

I think Dalinar would have been proud for Adolin to be a full Shardbearer at 16. I think Elhokar became a full Shardbearer at 21/22 after the War of Reckoning, with Parshendi Shards, and I don't think he collected them himself. That is pretty young, but Adolin must have set a record for youngest Shard duel winner.
Even when proto-Bondsmith Dalinar banned Shard duels in WoK, he still allowed honour duels, and the old Blackthorn Dalinar was the type of person to kill a man who insulted him. Honour is important, and Tinalar dissed House Kholin. He had it coming.

It was probably Gavilar's Blade. Gavilar is the King and a diplomat, lending Shards is what a King does, as a show of power. Dalinar is the enforcer and nobody touches his Shards. That's why it's super shocking for him to give his Shards to Sadeas and Renarin, because it's like he's throwing away his Blackthorn legacy.

14 hours ago, maxal said:

My thoughts are Adolin's training is not as complete as Kaladin... Adolin has been prancing around in a Shardplate since he was a teenager He may be a trained soldier, he remains a Shardbearer fully protected in his indestructible shell. Also, apart from his daily dueling practice where he does controlled regular moves in a secure environment and the occasional gem hunt where he hits a few Parshendis with the same difficulty my 3 years old son has tossing around his stuffed animals , he doesn't seem to be doing "other" physical training. In comparison, Kaladin has used to train himself, hard. Just look at when he decided he wanted to improve his "bridge carrying strategies": the guy is a machine! He also is used to use up his own body whenever he is doing work and while he may have the advantage of stormlight, it was unconscious use at this time and it still isn't the equivalent of a Shardplate. I'd say Kaladin is a much more versatile athlete than Adolin and I wouldn't be surprised if Adolin, once removed from his "protection", would realize his limits are not quite what he thought they would be.

Well, Kaladin certainly isn't romantic, but the Gilbert and Anne romance did start off by them yelling at each other... Though in fact, Gilbert has always been infatuated by Anne: he just didn't know how to approach her. Alright, I do like hurt and comfort When it is well done, it is adorable and cute, but it gets easily badly done which is a problem. I never heard of the laws of narrative causality... Adolin could or could not have a near death moment: technically he has had many, but none turned out into arcs for him. There is a trope for a character who sits by the bed of the injured... I forgot the name. It was cute.

Daily duelling practice is still vigourous physical exercise, Shardplate or not. Every time Adolin gets out of his Plate, he's disgustingly sweaty. He also does a lot of riding and some martial arts in the form of Shard-wrestling, given that he has a habit of using wrestling moves in the arena when he wants to show he can win a duel without using a Shardblade. So even if Adolin doesn't have Kaladin's bridge-lifting bulk, he eats well and is very physically active, and in my imagination could give Kaladin a run for his spheres in the Cosmere's annual fundraising swimsuit calendar.

See, Gilbert is very loyal, even if he didn't know how to show it. How many other stories about school crushes have characters who love no one else for years and years and stay loyal? Of all the novels that featured 12 year old protagonists that aged up, most of them dated or did the things with other people before realising that they loved their school friend all along. And the trope you are looking for is the "Florence Nightingale effect". Narrative causality is the mysterious force in fiction that forces probability to bend in order to create an interesting plot for readers. It is the magic that leads a completely average cow herding farmboy to find the mysterious sword in the enchanted lake, and makes the evil Dark Lord explain all his evil plans to Cleftchin McMullet :rolleyes: . Yeah, none of it is realistic, but readers enjoy reading it, otherwise it wouldn't happen so much.

Navani would care for Adolin. She's a non-Radiant who has a "too old for this crem" attitude and it's the kind of down-to-earth response that would help ground Adolin and keep him from dwelling too much on what his new station in life is. Since she experienced a similar thing when Gavilar died and suddenly she had no power, and no one wanted her anymore, and Aesudan took over all the things she thought was her contribution to family. It would be nice if he got over the "you seduced my dad" thing and they had a heartfelt discussion about the importance of holding Alethkar since Dalinar is Bondsmithing and Elhokar is useless.

14 hours ago, maxal said:

Of course, being rebellious is great when you are faced with undesirable conditions requiring others to take action, such as Bridge 4. However, when you live within a soceity, you can't always reject every form of authority, if you do, you are an anarchist. In other words, you have to choose your battles, which ones to fight and which ones not to fight. Kaladin isn't doing it, he fights everything, all at once and because he is a darkeyes, thus oppressed, he sees himself as justified to do so. Unfortunately, there is nothing I dislike more than having a character using an existing condition as an excuse to justify every single actions.

I personally do not read his depression as a character flaw: it can't be a character flaw if it is outside your control and if it isn't something you can improve or heal from. It is more of an handicap than a flaw which again bothers me, because as the story currently is written, Kaladin has almost no wrong: he is a pure victim of circumstances. Other characters have obvious character flaws, but Kaladin just seems to have not many. The only one I can definitely pinned on him is narrow-mindness so well there's that, at least.

If Adolin has kissed 5 or fewer girls, it averages out to around one a year since he started wife-hunting at age 18. That's rare enough to make a guy go "wow" if most of them were very quick, rushed kisses given by girls who were watched over by chaperones. I find it hard to imagine that a guy who courted half the warcamp didn't get a kiss or two at the end of a date, when he drops them at their houses by carriage. Even Jamie Fraser, that other 23 year old virgin, made a point of mentioning that he was a virgin and not a monk.

Harry was 11 years old when Hagrid busted down the Dursley's door and told him he was a wizard. Kids can be pretty resilient and impressionable, and if you raised them in an abusive household, they would assume that is the way life is for everyone and wouldn't question it. It wasn't until he went to Hogwarts that he realised he was special and abuse isn't the status quo. When he went home, he had Hogwarts to look forwards to, and that made his suffering bearable. Renarin is 19, and he has no Hagrid, and his "owl letter" is a spren that gives him crazy visions and pretty much condemns him to Damnation. Or it could be that the first Harry Potter book was written for 12 year olds and kids want to read triumphant escapism rather than an analysis of mental illness.

So Kaladin's rebelliousness and lack of respect of authority came from his parents? It makes a lot of sense, since Kaladin was given a lot of freedom and choice, compared to other children in the village, and people of his own rank. Lirin is too much of an intellectual and raised Kaladin to be one too. An after many long chapters of Kaladin not knowing what he was and what he should do with his life, he decided to become a soldier. And that is what WoR Kaladin identified himself as, when he was too afraid to accept that he was become a Radiant. The amusing thing is that because Kaladin is so difficult with authority figures, it actually makes him a terrible soldier because the chain of command is one of the most important institutions of being military. He's a good fighter, but that doesn't make a person a good soldier. He's a decent squadleader because of his charisma, but he is not a good commander when he rejects the chain of command -- and instead of trusting his Bridge Four bodyguards to do their job, he takes the burden on himself and pulls shifts without sleeping for a week.

If you are looking for flaws in Kaladin, one of them is his wilful blindness. At the end of WoR he came to a realisation about prejudice and trust, but it's not full self-awareness. And until he begins dissecting his behaviour and understanding the source of his resentment, his self-assured identity based on being an oppressed victim lashing out at perceived wrongdoers (or a soldier) is going to be mentally blinkered. Maybe it doesn't sound like a huge flaw, but it's a very realistic flaw that other characters have, and many people IRL have too. If everyone had huge flaws, they'd run the risk of being unredeemable to readers. The example being Szeth - so many people hate on him, and a small amount of others think he deserves pity.

14 hours ago, maxal said:

This being said, I do not think he was allowed to do as he wished growing up. I get the feeling the Kholin boys grew up in a very sheltered environment. It may not be obvious when reading Renarin because his disability directly impacts his abilities to develop successful relationships: you do expect him to struggle there. But Adolin? I suspect the boys probably were each other's friends all through the most defining part of their childhood which could provide an explanation as to why Adolin is so bad at developing relationships. I somehow get the impression Renarin's family used up his disability as an excuse for keeping him away from any challenging or meaningful tasks thus making him be ridiculously proud of himself for washing dirty pots. There are plenty of people having more crippling disabilities than Renarin who refuses to let those stop them, fighting to find other ways to achieve their goals. It may be, while being loving and supportive, Renarin's family didn't do much in trying to help learn to compensate for his disability, instead insisting on over-sheltering him which ultimately led to the scene I do not like.

So what does my reaction to the character say about myself?

I would not say that Renarin is being disparaging toward the Ardentia or city government. He doesn't look down on them, or think that they are institutions filled with terrible people - he just does not want them because they are not his childhood dream. Just like Adolin doesn't mind if people give their Shardblades names, he just personally doesn't do it for his own. Not much has been mentioned about Renarin and Adolin's childhood, but based on how Dalinar treats Renarin and how he and Adolin step around his disability, Renarin, lacking army training unlike most high ranking lighteyed boys, hasn't had much in the way of being taught discipline. Sure, he can follow orders to wash plates and jump off roofs, but I think his childhood was filled with "you shouldn't do this" instead of "don't do this" and "no". His family is just too loving and supportive to be strict on him. And that is why no one killed his dream of being a soldier and going to soldier heaven.

Your view on Renarin shows that you are a tough love type who doesn't empathise with long and drawn out internal struggles in the mind of an introvert. You'd rather grab them by the shoulders and shake them and say "SNAP OUT OF IT!!" or "GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF MAN!" rather than let them stew until they reach self-realisation. Some people would think you're too harsh because it's not like you can just punch depression in the face. Other people would agree that the "Get over it" approach is the right thing to do when you don't know what to do, but then again they are also the kind of people who give advice like "Just talk to her and ask her out" and to people like Renarin, and people who like Renarin, that kind of advice just doesn't work.

Well, it would be a very boring world if we were all the same.

Art time

Because we were discussing and asking the question "How tall and how buff is Kaladin?", I have come to a conclusion, and my answer is "Very".

My eyes are up here

Spoiler

A really silly piece inspired by you guys.
Would you mess with this Kaladin? Keep in mind that Shallan is 5'6"/168cm and in this picture I drew Kaladin as 6'5"/196cm and he is slouching slightly. To anyone who ships Shalladin, how would this ship even work, logistically. She is eye level to his armpits and we all know Kaladin is lucky to bathe once a week... <_<

It is also in character for Shallan to enjoy looking at shirtless young men. One of the first drawings she does in WoK is a sketch of Yalb, who goes around shirtless in only a vest.

Character design - Elhokar

Quote

The king’s uniform had the traditional long coat with buttons up the sides, but it was loose and relaxed, and ruffled lace poked out of the collar and cuffs. His trousers were solid blue, and were cut in the same baggy fashion as Ruthar’s. It all looked so informal to Dalinar.
Chapter 18, "Highprince of War", Way of Kings

Spoiler

I have only drawn Elhokar a grand total of once previously, and based his design on that old sketch. I'm not really a huge fan of Elhokar, but I tried to depict him as I understood his personality. He likes feasts and hedonism, so I gave him the classic spoiled prince hair (the prince from Shrek 2 has the same haircut), but he is actually tired and sad and aware that he's pretty useless. The crown is based on the design of the stylised Kholin glyphpair, and the uniform looks like a very relaxed "pyjamas" version of the standard Kholin Army officer uniform. Combined with his hair, he looks very unsoldierly, but Dalinar is too soft on him to call him out on breaking the Codes. The bottom picture of "thumbs down" Elhokar is based on how Roman emperors showed their disapproval at the circus when gladiators didn't perform well enough. If you've seen the movie "Gladiator", I was thinking of the Commodus character.

Character design - Wit

Quote

The newcomer trotted up to them. Tall and thin, the King’s Wit rode easily on a black gelding. He wore a stiff black coat and black trousers, a color matched by his deep onyx hair. Though he wore a long, thin sword tied to his waist, as far as Adolin knew, the man had never drawn it. A dueling foil rather than a military blade, it was mostly symbolic.
Chapter 12, "Unity", Way of Kings

Spoiler

I don't really like Wit either, so I drew him as knowing and smug because he knows all the secrets and doesn't share any. I saw the King's Wit as a court jester-like position, so I gave him one of those old fashioned page boy haircuts. In my head he is very bouncy and energetic and exaggeratedly expressive - if Elhokar was giving a speech, Wit would be behind his back making funny faces at the crowd. In the top right sketch, Wit is allomancing, not retouching his lipstick. In the bottom sketch, Wit is talking to a cremling telling it his life story or whatever, as inspired by the epilogue to WoR. I figured he was annoying like the Doctor from Doctor Who and did all sorts of crazy random things while talking very quickly for unknown reasons that end up making sense 5 episodes later.

Character design - Kid Kal

Quote

The rocks Tien had given him were still in his pocket. He pulled them out, then took his canteen off his belt and washed them with water. The first one he’d been given showed the white swirls and strata. It appeared the other one had a hidden design too.
It looked like a face, smiling at him, made of white bits in the rock. Kal smiled despite himself, though it quickly faded. A rock wasn’t going to solve his problems.
Chapter 16, "Cocoons", Way of Kings

Spoiler

Do I like anyone at all? I don't even like Kal that much either. This design was deliberately made to resemble adult Kaladin, but with softer features. Instead of intense and grumpy eyes, kid Kal is confused and uncertain. His hair is shorter and neater (isn't it cute???), and I drew his trousers in the knickerbocker style because when a kid keeps growing taller by the day and clothing is expensive, you don't give him long pants. Top right - Kal can actually smile when he is with Tien and the smiley rock. Bottom - Kal being emo and thinking "These spheres ruined my life". I tried to sum up my thoughts on his character in these sketches, and from my impression of his flashback chapters, he gets nonstop mood swings on top of those pesky puberty thoughts.

And those are my views on various characters. As I've mentioned before, my imagination runs in 2D and this is how I interpreted these characters when I read. Feel free to share what your own mental image is like. I know that mine is biased because I don't like everyone!

And since we speculated on Kaladin's physical appearance, why can't Adolin get some time to shine?
Some random comics.
Disclaimer: They were funny in my head!

Meanwhile, During a Highstorm - Shallan and Adolin

Spoiler

What does warcamp interior design look like? Who knows. The right side portrait is Dalinar's Shardplate and Oathbringer, if you bothered to inspect the details.
This was inspired by the "draw me like one of your French girls" scene from Titanic.

Meanwhile, During a Highstorm - Adolin and Kaladin

Spoiler

Kaladin: Fashion? You're spending the highstorm looking for new clothing?
Adolin: Presentation is important, not that you would know. What do they even teach in bridge school these days?
Kaladin: You idiot! We're wearing the same thing!!!

The end.

Sorry for this post being so long.

Erklitt · July 20, 2016

@sheep You know what I find really fascinating? You don't like Hoid, and I do, yet you sketch him in a way I find fitting. I agree he's scheming, and usually I don't like scheming people, but for Hoid with all his knowledge and experience I make an exception, because I really think he's trying to do good. And to my mind, you captured the face he presents to the world very well - it's the mask he wears. In those rare moments when he talked openly to Dalinar, I'm sure he looked different - but while he goes about insulting people, I can perfectly picture him now thanks to your sketch. Thanks!!

**Rasarr** · July 20, 2016

I love, love, love those black-and-white sketches. Elhokar scenes and Wit chatting with a cremling are so fitting to their personality (also Elhokar is my favourite character in SA, so I'm just gushing in general here). And those scenes in the camp interiors

maxal · July 21, 2016

On 7/18/2016 at 7:51 PM, Erunion said:

maxal · July 21, 2016

I seem to have trouble with my posts... They get stuck into the typing area and I can't get rid of them... So sorry for the double posting.

21 hours ago, Vander said:

MAXAL!

I thought all the people who were regulars before had gone inactive... I was sad.

Nope. I never went inactive. I have been posting on a regular basis. True enough I may not post as much as I used to, but there are less conversations to be had, these days, and there are less people to partake into them. I supposed this is expected considering we haven't have new Stormlight Archive material for a while now.

9 hours ago, sheep said:

I think Dalinar would have been proud for Adolin to be a full Shardbearer at 16. I think Elhokar became a full Shardbearer at 21/22 after the War of Reckoning, with Parshendi Shards, and I don't think he collected them himself. That is pretty young, but Adolin must have set a record for youngest Shard duel winner.
Even when proto-Bondsmith Dalinar banned Shard duels in WoK, he still allowed honour duels, and the old Blackthorn Dalinar was the type of person to kill a man who insulted him. Honour is important, and Tinalar dissed House Kholin. He had it coming.

It was probably Gavilar's Blade. Gavilar is the King and a diplomat, lending Shards is what a King does, as a show of power. Dalinar is the enforcer and nobody touches his Shards. That's why it's super shocking for him to give his Shards to Sadeas and Renarin, because it's like he's throwing away his Blackthorn legacy.

I think Dalinar would have been ridiculously proud of Adolin after the duel, but before, he would have been ragging mad his young son saw fit to wager his new Shardplate, especially considering how much trouble the family went to secure this particular one. We should not forget how Adolin stated nobody thought he could win: everyone pinned him for the loser. Everyone surely included his own father, after all, Adolin was just 16 and inexperienced because let's face it, there is only so much experience you can have at such a young age.

Also, Adolin has been dueling for the honor of his house without wagering his Shards, so I think it isn't so much the fact Adolin got into a duel with Tinalar which most likely bothered Dalinar, it is the fact it was a duel for Shards. And at 16! I'd really like to know who was the youngest to win a duel for Shards, because Adolin must be coming close to it.

We do not know when Elhokar had his Shards, there are absolutely no indications whatsoever, but I'd think he had them prior to his father's death or else he would have bonded Sunraiser.

I had wonder if it was Sunraiser or Oathbringer... Dalinar did speak of his ill being at leasing his Shards to anyone: I wondered if he made an exception for his own son. I also wondered how much experience Adolin realistically had, at his age, fighting with a Blade. We saw a few lighteyed practicing with Shardblade in WoR and Kaladin comments on how bad they were with them...

As for Dalinar giving away his Shards, it has never been heard of. Adolin, I think it was Adolin, comments on how nobody ever gives away there Shards unless they were very old or dead. It makes Dalinar's actions all the more meaningful with regards to his progression as a Radiant: it means a lot for him to give those away.

10 hours ago, sheep said:

Daily duelling practice is still vigourous physical exercise, Shardplate or not. Every time Adolin gets out of his Plate, he's disgustingly sweaty. He also does a lot of riding and some martial arts in the form of Shard-wrestling, given that he has a habit of using wrestling moves in the arena when he wants to show he can win a duel without using a Shardblade. So even if Adolin doesn't have Kaladin's bridge-lifting bulk, he eats well and is very physically active, and in my imagination could give Kaladin a run for his spheres in the Cosmere's annual fundraising swimsuit calendar.

See, Gilbert is very loyal, even if he didn't know how to show it. How many other stories about school crushes have characters who love no one else for years and years and stay loyal? Of all the novels that featured 12 year old protagonists that aged up, most of them dated or did the things with other people before realising that they loved their school friend all along. And the trope you are looking for is the "Florence Nightingale effect". Narrative causality is the mysterious force in fiction that forces probability to bend in order to create an interesting plot for readers. It is the magic that leads a completely average cow herding farmboy to find the mysterious sword in the enchanted lake, and makes the evil Dark Lord explain all his evil plans to Cleftchin McMullet . Yeah, none of it is realistic, but readers enjoy reading it, otherwise it wouldn't happen so much.

Navani would care for Adolin. She's a non-Radiant who has a "too old for this crem" attitude and it's the kind of down-to-earth response that would help ground Adolin and keep him from dwelling too much on what his new station in life is. Since she experienced a similar thing when Gavilar died and suddenly she had no power, and no one wanted her anymore, and Aesudan took over all the things she thought was her contribution to family. It would be nice if he got over the "you seduced my dad" thing and they had a heartfelt discussion about the importance of holding Alethkar since Dalinar is Bondsmithing and Elhokar is useless.

I need to offer additional precision. Adolin, of course, is very fit, athletic and would give a run to anyone anyone's money in any yearly swimsuit calendar. He, however, has been training in a similar way, for years and while wearing an artifact which increases his speed, his strength and his endurance. It is commented in WoK (or WoR) how difficult it was for former Shardbearer to learn how to fight without them. I suspect relying endlessly on its advantages to keep you going might make you unprepared to pace yourselves appropriately and it would impact on your fighting strategy: you will not fight the same if you only need one strike to slay an opponent nor will you fight the same if the same opponent has to strike countless hits before he can think of harming you.

The best example to illustrate my point would be Kaladin upon his first bridge run. Despite being muscular, fit and well trained, he literally drop down exhausted after running the bridge above one chasm. His despair upon finding out he'd have to do it over again, several more times, before getting back to camp was palpable. Yes, he had been a slave for 8 months, but still this scene illustrates how unprepared all of Kaladin's previous training made him for this particular task. Training wise, stop and go is about the worst you could do, cardio wise, it is super hard, especially when you have never done it before. You may have run long distances before, but go to the stop and go motion could still kill you if you aren't careful. After a while, Kaladin decides to train for the bridge run and he improves massively, both in strength and in cardio. Overall, I do think Kaladin's training has been more diverse than Adolin which would give him an edge, training wise.

Didn't Gilbert courted another girl, for a while, in book 3? I can't remember, but Anne sure thinks he does. I recall how Anne had trouble admitting she loved Gilbert because, being very romantic, she had dressed the portray of her ideal husband and Gilbert fell short on that list. It was beautiful to have it highlighted being compatible on paper doesn't guarantee long-term compatibility. Florence Nightingale? Doesn't sound like my type of trope: too convenient. I like when a story feels a tad more realistic: the setup may be extraordinary, but the characters, the characters must feel real.

Navani? Interesting pick. I had wondered where her loyalty would fall once Adolin's guilt is unraveled. She dotes on him, mostly because he lets her unlike her own children and he seems to enjoy it. They have a pseudo surrogate mother/son relationship where Navani takes her distances probably because Adolin isn't her son. Or maybe he reminds her of Shshshsh, whom he resembles the most. Still, we have yet to see Navani truly involve herself within Adolin's affair or have a heart felt conversation with him. I'd be interesting to see it happening though. I have always been troubled within the shipping discussions to see arguments state how Shallan would be good for Kaladin being cheering him up, how Kaladin would provide Shallan's the intellectual stimulation she potentially yearns for, how Adolin would provide the love/care Shallan never got growing up... No matter which ships, everyone is getting something out of their partner, but what is Adolin getting? Apart from a wife, which is rather blend.

10 hours ago, sheep said:

If Adolin has kissed 5 or fewer girls, it averages out to around one a year since he started wife-hunting at age 18. That's rare enough to make a guy go "wow" if most of them were very quick, rushed kisses given by girls who were watched over by chaperones. I find it hard to imagine that a guy who courted half the warcamp didn't get a kiss or two at the end of a date, when he drops them at their houses by carriage. Even Jamie Fraser, that other 23 year old virgin, made a point of mentioning that he was a virgin and not a monk.

Harry was 11 years old when Hagrid busted down the Dursley's door and told him he was a wizard. Kids can be pretty resilient and impressionable, and if you raised them in an abusive household, they would assume that is the way life is for everyone and wouldn't question it. It wasn't until he went to Hogwarts that he realised he was special and abuse isn't the status quo. When he went home, he had Hogwarts to look forwards to, and that made his suffering bearable. Renarin is 19, and he has no Hagrid, and his "owl letter" is a spren that gives him crazy visions and pretty much condemns him to Damnation. Or it could be that the first Harry Potter book was written for 12 year olds and kids want to read triumphant escapism rather than an analysis of mental illness.

So Kaladin's rebelliousness and lack of respect of authority came from his parents? It makes a lot of sense, since Kaladin was given a lot of freedom and choice, compared to other children in the village, and people of his own rank. Lirin is too much of an intellectual and raised Kaladin to be one too. An after many long chapters of Kaladin not knowing what he was and what he should do with his life, he decided to become a soldier. And that is what WoR Kaladin identified himself as, when he was too afraid to accept that he was become a Radiant. The amusing thing is that because Kaladin is so difficult with authority figures, it actually makes him a terrible soldier because the chain of command is one of the most important institutions of being military. He's a good fighter, but that doesn't make a person a good soldier. He's a decent squadleader because of his charisma, but he is not a good commander when he rejects the chain of command -- and instead of trusting his Bridge Four bodyguards to do their job, he takes the burden on himself and pulls shifts without sleeping for a week.

If you are looking for flaws in Kaladin, one of them is his wilful blindness. At the end of WoR he came to a realisation about prejudice and trust, but it's not full self-awareness. And until he begins dissecting his behaviour and understanding the source of his resentment, his self-assured identity based on being an oppressed victim lashing out at perceived wrongdoers (or a soldier) is going to be mentally blinkered. Maybe it doesn't sound like a huge flaw, but it's a very realistic flaw that other characters have, and many people IRL have too. If everyone had huge flaws, they'd run the risk of being unredeemable to readers. The example being Szeth - so many people hate on him, and a small amount of others think he deserves pity.

Huh, many guys never even kiss 5 girls within their lifetime... Five is a lot and more than enough to remove the "wow" factor. In any way, it is very hard to determine how many girls Adolin has kissed or not: I am simply settling on "not many" while keeping the option "Shallan may be the first" open. Jamie Fraser issues were completely different: being a runaway wanted "criminal" and having been flogged to near death kinda put a hold on his romantic endeavor. Adolin has no excuse for his horrible track record except for himself.

This is true about Harry, simply knowing there was something else outside the Dursley's household may have been enough to keep him steady. His new found self-confidence, found at Hogwart, probably helped as well. The difference would be Renarin has not been mistreated within his own household. He was cared for, love and supported: he was never abused. So again, the comparison does not hold all that well.

Not exactly from his parents, some children are naturally more opposing than others, but I sure think being raised with little rules as if rank didn't matter probably didn't help. Kaladin being naturally inclined to rebel and to oppose himself was given, all through his childhood, the justification he needed to turn his behavior into something he perceived as right. Of course, ranks are an idiocy, so Kaladin is right about a great many things, but he hasn't been taught how to choose his fights, how taking your hole in order to better strike later is a more efficient strategy then screaming to everyone hearing how wrong they are and how superior you are for knowing it.

IMO, Kaladin is a terrible soldier: he does well when he is in command with nobody else to order him around. This being said, the side-carry is not such a great example. Kaladin was naive enough to think the bridgemen life mattered and the fact so many died simply was because nobody tried for a different strategy. He genuinely thought his superiors would be glad to have him find a new way to carry the bridge resulting in less causalities. And he did ask permission before trying it... So this wasn't Kaladin being a rebel, it was Kaladin thinking everyone works on the same value system he. Admittedly, he was right and they were wrong. It is hard to fault him there. As a commander, he does take a lot on his shoulders, but he also remarks on how little sleep he needs, now he has stormlight, to keep him going, so his behavior may not be harmful.

I agree this is a flaw and a realistic one, even if painful to read at times. I also agree too many flaws make characters difficult to relate to: I can't relate nor sympathize to Szeth and I am forever troubled there will be a book centered on him. What redeeming quality might he even have?

10 hours ago, sheep said:

I would not say that Renarin is being disparaging toward the Ardentia or city government. He doesn't look down on them, or think that they are institutions filled with terrible people - he just does not want them because they are not his childhood dream. Just like Adolin doesn't mind if people give their Shardblades names, he just personally doesn't do it for his own. Not much has been mentioned about Renarin and Adolin's childhood, but based on how Dalinar treats Renarin and how he and Adolin step around his disability, Renarin, lacking army training unlike most high ranking lighteyed boys, hasn't had much in the way of being taught discipline. Sure, he can follow orders to wash plates and jump off roofs, but I think his childhood was filled with "you shouldn't do this" instead of "don't do this" and "no". His family is just too loving and supportive to be strict on him. And that is why no one killed his dream of being a soldier and going to soldier heaven.

Your view on Renarin shows that you are a tough love type who doesn't empathise with long and drawn out internal struggles in the mind of an introvert. You'd rather grab them by the shoulders and shake them and say "SNAP OUT OF IT!!" or "GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF MAN!" rather than let them stew until they reach self-realisation. Some people would think you're too harsh because it's not like you can just punch depression in the face. Other people would agree that the "Get over it" approach is the right thing to do when you don't know what to do, but then again they are also the kind of people who give advice like "Just talk to her and ask her out" and to people like Renarin, and people who like Renarin, that kind of advice just doesn't work.

Well, it would be a very boring world if we were all the same.

He practically spat on the idea of becoming a city lord... maybe he doesn't look down on it, but he states it as if he'd rather have all his tooth pulled then occupy this position. So again, had he expanded on why it was such a bad idea, I may have sympathize with him. I also think his family spoiled him by refusing to force him into any course of action, simply focusing on keeping him safe, but not carrying of their over-indulgence may not be the right solution.

Yep that's about right, but it isn't politically correct to state it. My perspective on both depression and mild autism is heavily biased by my very negative experience with both which also explain part of my attitude towards it. While I am perfectly aware you can't shake people up, I still have a hard time emphasizing with Renarin's struggles. Why can't he just talk? Why isn't he trying to do something with his life? Why is he taking his disability as an excuse to sulk endlessly? These thought just cannot get into my head, somehow. It just doesn't make sense to me, but I guess other stuff which makes sense to me doesn't make sense to others...

Life would perhaps be boring, but I have learned a long time ago, there are ways to be which aren't right.

Great art today: I love the comics :lol:

Illustrated SA Scenes & Characters

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