Roshar vs Scadrial

[asterion137 he/him]

Dalinar may or may not have been using stormlight at that time. Also, when he beat up elhokar he was low on stormlight and had smashed up plate.

[cloudjumper he/him]

Dalinar may or may not have been using stormlight at that time. Also, when he beat up elhokar he was low on stormlight and had smashed up plate.

I don't think that Dalinar was ever a proto-radiant, so I don't think that he could have been using stormlight.

[asterion137 he/him]

I don't think that Dalinar was ever a proto-radiant, so I don't think that he could have been using stormlight.

He was a radiant later and was hand-picked by the Stormfather for the visions, which seems suspiciously similar to a Nahel Bond. He also had several instances where he should have died and responded with increased speed and strength beyond what a normal human should have. (chasmfiend fight, szeth lastclap, last duel with Szeth)

Edited June 1, 2016 by asterion137

[Pathfinder]

I don't think that Dalinar was ever a proto-radiant, so I don't think that he could have been using stormlight.

There are many instances that show he was in fact a proto-radiant. When he catches the chasmfiend claw he is glowing. He loses the Thrill (which is the result of an Unmade which is of Odium), and feels sickened at the whole sale slaughter. And finally holding a shardblade begins to feel wrong to him. All signs of a proto-radiant. 

[cloudjumper he/him]

There are many instances that show he was in fact a proto-radiant. When he catches the chasmfiend claw he is glowing. He loses the Thrill (which is the result of an Unmade which is of Odium), and feels sickened at the whole sale slaughter. And finally holding a shardblade begins to feel wrong to him. All signs of a proto-radiant. 

 

He was a radiant later and was hand-picked by the Stormfather for the visions, which seems suspiciously similar to a Nahel Bond. He also had several instances where he should have died and responded with increased speed and strength beyond what a normal human should have. (chasmfiend fight, szeth lastclap, last duel with Szeth)

I see.

[iStarreh he/him]

Let's say that all creatures from the planets were working in unison to fight the other planet. If this is the case I believe that Roshar would win by far. Scadrial has Kandra and Koloss which are a large advantage but Roshar has 1. Soulcasters which are insanely useful in a battle 2. Parshendi/Voidbringers which can use the multiple different forms and 3. Chasmfiends. Try attacking a huge armored beast with regular swords. Not going to work very well. That's just my opinion though.

[asterion137 he/him]

Let's say that all creatures from the planets were working in unison to fight the other planet. If this is the case I believe that Roshar would win by far. Scadrial has Kandra and Koloss which are a large advantage but Roshar has 1. Soulcasters which are insanely useful in a battle 2. Parshendi/Voidbringers which can use the multiple different forms and 3. Chasmfiends. Try attacking a huge armored beast with regular swords. Not going to work very well. That's just my opinion though.

there are no voidbringers or parshendi technically right now since the current Roshar timeline has the everstorm hitting shinovar in a day. Chasmfiends are not intelligent enough to fight alongside Roshar. They would probably kill as many of Roshar's soldiers as Scadrial's. 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Still don't actually think Roshar would likely win EVEN with that impossible condition added

 

 

Because, as soon as all creatures can be used,  

 

a) Kandra are still game breakers meaning Scadrial should win without any actual battles being fought, esp as, unless some Radiants have powers that aren't suggested by what we currently know, Roshar don't have a way to discover or control them 

 

The Lord Ruler

 

c) the rest of Roshar's troops are still underpowered against Metalborn and thus soon Scadrial will have plenty of Shards to kill said Chasmfiends

Edited June 4, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[Edgedancer he/him]

Let's say that all creatures from the planets were working in unison to fight the other planet. If this is the case I believe that Roshar would win by far. Scadrial has Kandra and Koloss which are a large advantage but Roshar has 1. Soulcasters which are insanely useful in a battle 2. Parshendi/Voidbringers which can use the multiple different forms and 3. Chasmfiends. Try attacking a huge armored beast with regular swords. Not going to work very well. That's just my opinion though.

Does that mean Scadrial gets that army of Fullborn they could tecnically make? Because then it becomes such a one sided stomp in their favour it isn't even funny.

On Soulcasters they rely on the gemharts supplied from the current situation at the shattered plains. Having them send their forces at a different threat entirely would damper their productivity heavily, maybe even collaps the current Alethi supply line.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Edgedancer

[asterion137 he/him]

Does that mean Scadrial gets that army of Fullborn they could tecnically make? Because then it becomes such a one sided stomp in their favour it isn't even funny.

On Soulcasters they rely on the gemharts supplied from the current situation at the shattered plains. Having them send their forces at a different threat entirely would damper their productivity heavily, maybe even collaps the current Alethi supply line.

eh i think the soulcasters could just run on stormlight and the gemhearts they already have... It's not much of an advantage tho because they still need more gems for repairing shardplate and the scadrians have canned food

[Voidus]

Does that mean Scadrial gets that army of Fullborn they could tecnically make? Because then it becomes such a one sided stomp in their favour it isn't even funny.

On Soulcasters they rely on the gemharts supplied from the current situation at the shattered plains. Having them send their forces at a different threat entirely would damper their productivity heavily, maybe even collaps the current Alethi supply line.

Also an army of giant immortal hills of flesh capable of dissolving whatever they want, if Roshar gets Chasmfiends Scadrial gets Mistwraiths.

[Knight Oblivion]

Let's say that all creatures from the planets were working in unison to fight the other planet. If this is the case I believe that Roshar would win by far. Scadrial has Kandra and Koloss which are a large advantage but Roshar has 1. Soulcasters which are insanely useful in a battle 2. Parshendi/Voidbringers which can use the multiple different forms and 3. Chasmfiends. Try attacking a huge armored beast with regular swords. Not going to work very well. That's just my opinion though.

People often bring up Roshar's advantage with supplies but why are their logistics ignored? You have many, different, disparate cultures with different forms of warfare (look at the Reshi) that you have to coordinate. One such people, the Azish, would most likely require some ridiculous bureaucratic nonsense like movement orders in triplicate. You also have another nation were the peoples' religion prevents them from going anywhere but their own homeland on their world.

Compare that to the fairly cultural and linguistic homogeneity of the Final Empire.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Knight Oblivion

[Farnsworth]

I think it has the most to do with who fights, and on whose territory. Let's assume that every fighting capable member except for the shardholders themselves join the fight. So for Roshar, that means that the Parshendi are fighting with the humans, and every single nation of Roshar is working together. With Scadrial, that means that the north and the south are united and sharing recources. I think it matters which planet they are fighting on. The Parshendi forms wouldn't work on Scadrial, because they have no spren, so that would take away a lot. The allomancers would be completely powerless on Roshar. So I think it matters whose planet the fight is happening on.

[Argel he/him]

Allomancers would be fine on Roshar. It's not like their metals are hard to transport over extended periods of time, unlike Stormlight. Also, I do not think we have any reason to believe metals natural to Rosahr would not work.

 

The Listeners are more interesting, but the ability to change forms seems more like a racial feature, so changing forms may work. Or at least, they may be able to maintain the form they are in when they travel to Scadrial. Maybe e.g. storm form would not work (or not work as well), but e.g. why wouldn't warrior form work??

 

Scadrial has the stronger gravity, so that works in their favor, on Scadrial or Roshar. But this has been covered multiple times in this thread already, so no neeed to rehash it again.

[Yata he/him]

Allomancers would be fine on Roshar. It's not like their metals are hard to transport over extended periods of time, unlike Stormlight. Also, I do not think we have any reason to believe metals natural to Rosahr would not work.

Roshar's Metal would be OK for an Allomancer... but Roshar itself is pretty poor of Mineral and their mining tech is pretty primitive. They have the Soulcaster after all, it's probably more cheap to Soulcast rubbish to metal than mine it.

[Pathfinder]

I think it has the most to do with who fights, and on whose territory. Let's assume that every fighting capable member except for the shardholders themselves join the fight. So for Roshar, that means that the Parshendi are fighting with the humans, and every single nation of Roshar is working together. With Scadrial, that means that the north and the south are united and sharing recources. I think it matters which planet they are fighting on. The Parshendi forms wouldn't work on Scadrial, because they have no spren, so that would take away a lot. The allomancers would be completely powerless on Roshar. So I think it matters whose planet the fight is happening on.

It has been confirmed that allomancers can burn metals on other planets and still have access to preservation despite being off planet. So a thug burning pewter on Scadrial is just like a thug burning pewter on Roshar. That, and also like Argel and Yata said, they could use pewter mined naturally from Roshar

 

Allomancers would be fine on Roshar. It's not like their metals are hard to transport over extended periods of time, unlike Stormlight. Also, I do not think we have any reason to believe metals natural to Rosahr would not work.

 

The Listeners are more interesting, but the ability to change forms seems more like a racial feature, so changing forms may work. Or at least, they may be able to maintain the form they are in when they travel to Scadrial. Maybe e.g. storm form would not work (or not work as well), but e.g. why wouldn't warrior form work??

 

Scadrial has the stronger gravity, so that works in their favor, on Scadrial or Roshar. But this has been covered multiple times in this thread already, so no neeed to rehash it again.

I agree that the parshendi could maintain their forms on Scadrial, but to change an existing one to a new form, I think they would have to hop back to Roshar and wait for a highstorm. But that is only based on the base forms. Voidforms could be unique in that regard, so I could be wrong. 

 

Roshar's Metal would be OK for an Allomancer... but Roshar itself is pretty poor of Mineral and their mining tech is pretty primitive. They have the Soulcaster after all, it's probably more cheap to Soulcast rubbish to metal than mine it.

Something tells me packing enough metal rods to form shavings for allomancers would be very easy. Probably one metal bar would last a misting a year for average burning. Maybe a month for constant burning. Then there is the likely chance of stealing a soulcaster, and using that for resupply. Not that they would need to if my rough guesses are at all accurate. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Pathfinder

[IndigoAjah he/him]

On 6/13/2016 at 0:44 AM, Figberts said:

I think it has the most to do with who fights, and on whose territory. Let's assume that every fighting capable member except for the shardholders themselves join the fight. So for Roshar, that means that the Parshendi are fighting with the humans, and every single nation of Roshar is working together. With Scadrial, that means that the north and the south are united and sharing recources. I think it matters which planet they are fighting on. The Parshendi forms wouldn't work on Scadrial, because they have no spren, so that would take away a lot. The allomancers would be completely powerless on Roshar. So I think it matters whose planet the fight is happening on.

Allomancers would not be powerless on Roshar - we have likely seen Allomancy being used there. Another reason the conflict is quite one sided 

[Rich2244]

I'm really goin out on a limb here, but just a theory I thought might be interesting. The parshendi bond spren to change form, so as long as they have bonded a spren, under the assumption that magic works on planets other than its origin as long as it has whatever is needed to fuel it, the different forms should work on other planets. 

Taking that one step further, I see no reason for stormform not to work on Scadrial. In which case would it be possible to summon an everstorm on Scadrial? I know highstorms are a magical weather pattern unique to Roshar but is there any reason one couldn't be formed on another planet?

Assuming that is possible I'm pretty sure it's an instant win for Roshar, Scadrial doesn't have structures designed to last in a highstorm, I'm using highstorm as a general term with everstorm being a specific type if anyone wonders why I keep switching terms, the planet would be wiped clean wherever the storm passed. The only way to survive would be underground. This would also provide a source of stormlight negating the advantage of metals being easier to transport.

Taking the location dispute a bit further surely Scadrial would lose on Roshar again because they have no way to survive outside in highstorms. 

I know this is kinda a long shot, just something I thought of, anyone know any reason it wouldn't work?

[Samaldin he/him]

I like your idea Rich2244 so upvote.

But i believe it should be possible for the scadrians to survive a highstorm. Of course i don´t mean out in the open but in the cities it should be possible, but it would kill a whole bunch of people the first few times it comes around until they understand how it works. Also i´m wondering how big of an annoyance a highstorm would be if combined with the ash of the final empire, cleaning up after one would take forever^^

[Rich2244]

I'm not so sure about cities, most skaa seem to live in fairly primitive shelters, wooden houses for the luckier ones, I can't see those surviving a highstorm, remember cities on Roshar are built with massive stormwalls blocking the direction the storms come from, then with mainly stone, often soulcast in a single piece. The castles of the noble houses might survive, depends whether the normal noble residences are torn apart and thrown against them or not. Highstorms throw boulders around and I can't imagine large houses or castles surviving too many of those.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

I really don't think it would be that hard for a people who have de facto survived the ending of their world to survive a magic infused hurricane-monsoon. For one thing, the nobles live in Castles. Wouldn't be great over decades, but during the war? Fine. Humans (and their slight deviations we see in these books) are incredibly quickly adapting creatures, and humans with a ton of magic and post-industrial tech and magitek are even less helpless.

 

We also know next to nothing about how long an everstorm lasts etc. And I think there is a near zero % chance of Stormform, inherently corrupted Parshendi ever fighting on the same side as the Alethi. Once again it's trying to artificially interpret would COULD be the case to find any situation that doesn't see Roshar get curb-stomped - rationalisation, not rationality 

 

Finally, if Harmony is the Shard on Scadrial, I cannot see him allowing an Everstorm to continue

Edited June 15, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[asterion137 he/him]

there are no parshendi left as of the current timeline except maybe those deserters who refused to take stormform. Technically there are no voidbringers either since the everstorm has yet to reach shinovar

[Rich2244]

On 15 June 2016 at 5:30 PM, IndigoAjah said:

I really don't think it would be that hard for a people who have de facto survived the ending of their world to survive a magic infused hurricane-monsoon. For one thing, the nobles live in Castles. Wouldn't be great over decades, but during the war? Fine. Humans (and their slight deviations we see in these books) are incredibly quickly adapting creatures, and humans with a ton of magic and post-industrial tech and magitek are even less helpless.

 

We also know next to nothing about how long an everstorm lasts etc. And I think there is a near zero % chance of Stormform, inherently corrupted Parshendi ever fighting on the same side as the Alethi. Once again it's trying to artificially interpret would COULD be the case to find any situation that doesn't see Roshar get curb-stomped - rationalisation, not rationality 

 

Finally, if Harmony is the Shard on Scadrial, I cannot see him allowing an Everstorm to continue

Being biologically engineered to survive in an atmosphere full of ash is very different to surviving a storm of apocalyptic scale. Though I do agree that the humans on Scadrial are very quick to adapt and are much hardier than humans on earth.

Why would they be fighting with the Alethi? My comment was solely about the parshendi. 

The original question wasn't The Final Empire vs Alethkar or any iteration of that it was Roshar vs Scadrial that encompasses everything on both worlds regardless of alignment.

Yes at the current point in the timeline pretty much any situation which takes alignment of forces into account massively favours Scadrial, I was just suggesting another possiblilty, scenario whatever you want to call it because I thought it was a cool idea.

Lastly as we know from second iteration mistborn Harmony struggle to directly intervene with anything because he is the holder of two opposing shards.

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

Hey guys. I've been going through these posts and I think you all may be looking at this the wrong way. Pardon me if I'm wrong (I've read 4 mistborn books and both Stormlight Archive books)

Scadrial has Sazed,aka Harmony as well as other beings like Iron-eyes etc etc, who can be considered gods....whereas on Roshar, Honor is dead. If Roshar ever were to fight Scadrial, I believe it would always be at a stale-mate.

3 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

Harmony struggle to directly intervene with anything because he is the holder of two opposing shards.

If Roshar attacked, Harmony may be able to fight back on an EQUAL scale. To keep both Shards in balance as such, For Harmony would be "Ruining" Roshar and "Preserving" Scadrial.

All in all, it would be a fruitless and useless battle.

[Rich2244]

5 minutes ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

If Roshar attacked, Harmony may be able to fight back on an EQUAL scale. To keep both Shards in balance as such, For Harmony would be "Ruining" Roshar and "Preserving" Scadrial.

Very interested by the ruining Roshar idea,  my thought is that since Ruin created humans on Scadrial not Roshar he (it?) would be more concerned with Ruining Scadrial and would therefore 'support' a Rosharan invasion while Preservation would try to preserve Scadrial opposing each other.