Could an Allomancer become a Radiant?

[IndigoAjah]

At the moment very hypothetical, folks (though that could change as Scadrial becomes more Cosmere aware and Roshar becomes an area of Cosmeric interest).

 

Under the old rules, before Sazed changed how Snapping worked, an Allomancer pretty much had to go through some form of deep physical or psychological trauma to Snap (unless they had Lerasium beads, and even then our one example to study has definitely been through enough physical and psychological trauma to count anyway - Scadrial is just that kind of world in the original trilogy), de facto leaving cracks in their soul. These cracks are also a prerequisite for Spren to pick you out for Radianthood. 

 

Say an Allomancer heads to Roshar (there is at least one Atium Misting there already): Could a Spren select them, assuming they had the characteristics that would make one attractive to a Spren? Could they form a Nahel bond? Are those cracks now too plastered up for this too happen, and if so would trauma subsequent to their Snapping (Vin for example has had plenty to pick from) have formed new cracks to bond onto? How about further trauma on Roshar itself?

 

Or would the sDNA fix them to their home planet and mean more hacking were needed to connect to Roshar? What if they had a strong connection to the concept of Honor or Cultivation?

[CaptainRyan]

I am not sure if there is a canon answer to this but, off the cuff, I would say that yes, a magic user from another world (not just Scadrial) could also bond with a spren (without need for hacks) if the conditions were right.

[Yata]

Probabily it's possible but more hard because an Allomancer is already filled with Preservation Investiture.

Remember that Investiture interfers with other Investiture, much more if the Investiture and Magic System are from different "Sets" (different worlds)

 

Now I can't search it, but there is a WoB about a child from a Nalthis and Scadrial power and with the child born with a bit of Preservation and a bit of Endowment...strange thing may happen to him.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Yata

[IndigoAjah]

Thinking about the interference between different Intents colouring Investiture, I guess it depends largely on the Opposition of those Intents? So Cultivation and Preservation would mix more easily than say Preservation and Honor, and much more easily than Honor and Dominion, for example? Or am I making too many assumptions?

[baby]

Think we have a WoB that people who aren't native to Roshar can be Radiants.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Onceler

[natc]

Thinking about the interference between different Intents colouring Investiture, I guess it depends largely on the Opposition of those Intents? So Cultivation and Preservation would mix more easily than say Preservation and Honor, and much more easily than Honor and Dominion, for example? Or am I making too many assumptions?

Cultivation would mix terribly with Preservation actually. Change and stagnation, just like with Ruin and Preservation. C & P completely oppose each other.

[jasenerd]

Cultivation would mix terribly with Preservation actually. Change and stagnation, just like with Ruin and Preservation. C & P completely oppose each other.

 

But perhaps a mix of Preservation and Ruin could mix well with Cultivation? Like an entire metallic art that we know is the result between the two.

[IndigoAjah]

I'm not sure, unless Brandon has said otherwise, that Cultivation does clash so much with Preservation. Change is not inherent in the meaning of Cultivation - it can refer to the growth of new living things and ideas and skills but also to the maintenance of them and making sure things flourish. I'd say that Cultivation is an even more perfect opposite to Ruin than Preservation is and has a decent cross-over with Preservation, even if one is static and the other is dynamic 

[Bob The Peanut]

Definitely maybe it might!

 

In my opinion, this COULD happen, it would however be harder than regular. Another question: can a Radiant travel to Scadrial and Snap?

[Eki]

Definitely maybe it might!

In my opinion, this COULD happen, it would however be harder than regular. Another question: can a Radiant travel to Scadrial and Snap?

Only if they were of Scadrian descent, since Allomancy is hereditary. Even then, I don't think they would have to travel to Scadrial to Snap.

[natc]

For a person to be Radiant they would have to have suffered some sort of trauma that broke them, cracking their souls. Meaning that more likely than not they are already snapped. If they had no allomantic potential at all tough luck.

If Cultivation's presence somehow created a new magic, jasenerd? Well yes, it is almost guaranteed to happen if all three showed up at the same place and invested. But at no point in feruchemy is any actual investiture mixed in intent, besides the feruchemist's soul having been a mixture from the get-go. A system will be there, but it's not going to take power from all three without some finagling.

[Oversleep]

The problem I see is that...
Well, cracks in the soul get filled, right?

When something traumatic happens, your soul cracks (on Scadrial known as Snapping; Radiants being broken). This lets Investiture flow in; on Scadrial (and if you're of Allomantic blood) Preservation fills these cracks, making you an Allomancer. On Roshar, this makes a place for Nahel bond to form; spren fills that crack.

The problem is, if you have your cracks already filled, there is no place for more Investiture. So if your soul is patched with Preservation's Investiture, you don't have any place for a spren.

[IndigoAjah]

The problem I see is that...

Well, cracks in the soul get filled, right?

When something traumatic happens, your soul cracks (on Scadrial known as Snapping; Radiants being broken). This lets Investiture flow in; on Scadrial (and if you're of Allomantic blood) Preservation fills these cracks, making you an Allomancer. On Roshar, this makes a place for Nahel bond to form; spren fills that crack.

The problem is, if you have your cracks already filled, there is no place for more Investiture. So if your soul is patched with Preservation's Investiture, you don't have any place for a spren.

Yeah, but let's take Vin for example: she had significant trauma through her entire childhood, some clearly enough to Snap her (question: did Reen beat her to Snap her and thus give her the tools to protect herself if he left? Anyone asked Brandon this? Or did she Snap long before this, given that Sazed thinks she may have drawn in Mists when younger - but I suppose even then Reen might not know this and beat her for the aforementioned reason anyway) and then had Investiture from Preservation fill this in. But there's no evidence that further trauma allows more Preservation coloured Investiture to come in and presumably boost their Allomancy (we surely would have seen this?) and Vin definitely receives significant further psychological and physical trauma. Does this leave new cracks that Preservation can't fill but another colour of Investiture could? Or is cracked a binary state?

[natc]

IIRC Vin actually snapped in the womb.

I'm not sure anything gets permanently filled back up to be honest. How would investiture enter you then? Besides, allomancy is something you're born with; the power of Preservation goes in and gets spent almost immediately. Lerasium likely acts on whatever bit of the soul normally contains allomantic potential, unless used for something else as implied possible.

Similarly if you have a spren jammed in nothing flows through. I'm inclined to believe the bond attaches somewhere else. It's, after all, technically possible to steal it. It's counterintuitive to have a spike that steals holes in things.

Would the crack even form in the same place every time in the first place?

[Voidus]

IIRC Vin actually snapped in the womb.

I'm not sure anything gets permanently filled back up to be honest. How would investiture enter you then? Besides, allomancy is something you're born with; the power of Preservation goes in and gets spent almost immediately. Lerasium likely acts on whatever bit of the soul normally contains allomantic potential, unless used for something else as implied possible.

Similarly if you have a spren jammed in nothing flows through. I'm inclined to believe the bond attaches somewhere else. It's, after all, technically possible to steal it. It's counterintuitive to have a spike that steals holes in things.

Would the crack even form in the same place every time in the first place?

I remember it being said to be during her birth that she snapped but yeah, very early on whichever it is.

[natc]

Birth sounds familiar too. Though the womb is involved in that . . .

Let's just assume birthing complications in labor almost killed her.

[Ari]

At the moment very hypothetical, folks (though that could change as Scadrial becomes more Cosmere aware and Roshar becomes an area of Cosmeric interest).

 

Under the old rules, before Sazed changed how Snapping worked, an Allomancer pretty much had to go through some form of deep physical or psychological trauma to Snap (unless they had Lerasium beads, and even then our one example to study has definitely been through enough physical and psychological trauma to count anyway - Scadrial is just that kind of world in the original trilogy), de facto leaving cracks in their soul. These cracks are also a prerequisite for Spren to pick you out for Radianthood. 

 

Say an Allomancer heads to Roshar (there is at least one Atium Misting there already): Could a Spren select them, assuming they had the characteristics that would make one attractive to a Spren? Could they form a Nahel bond? Are those cracks now too plastered up for this too happen, and if so would trauma subsequent to their Snapping (Vin for example has had plenty to pick from) have formed new cracks to bond onto? How about further trauma on Roshar itself?

 

Or would the sDNA fix them to their home planet and mean more hacking were needed to connect to Roshar? What if they had a strong connection to the concept of Honor or Cultivation?

 

The way Brandon's talked about this similarity seems to imply that for most magic systems said "spiritual cracks" are a prerequisite of Initiation in general.

 

The problem I see is that...

Well, cracks in the soul get filled, right?

When something traumatic happens, your soul cracks (on Scadrial known as Snapping; Radiants being broken). This lets Investiture flow in; on Scadrial (and if you're of Allomantic blood) Preservation fills these cracks, making you an Allomancer. On Roshar, this makes a place for Nahel bond to form; spren fills that crack.

The problem is, if you have your cracks already filled, there is no place for more Investiture. So if your soul is patched with Preservation's Investiture, you don't have any place for a spren.

 

I'd say it's an interesting discussion to have, because we don't exactly know when the cracks would be regarded as "full." We know there are variations to have many powers you can have, (with the maximum for Scadrian investiture being no less than being a full Feruchemist and lerasium Mistborn, as the Lord Ruler demonstrated, although arguably lerasium might have got him around that maximum somehow, in which case the normal max would be being Mistborn or a full Feruchemist) so it's a bit open to debate.

 

I'd actually have thought the biggest obstacle to being a Radiant Misting (or similar) would actually be that you'd need a Spiritual Connection to both Scadrial and Roshar. You could possibly hack this with feruchemy or feruchemical medallions using generic connection to attract a Spren and swear the oaths, although I'd find it very interesting whether your abilities as a Radiant would be able to function when you're not tapping generic connection on Roshar if you employed that hack, or if you'd need to do something to permanently write a connection to Roshar into your spirit web. (which maybe could be a human attribute you could spike someone for...)

Edited April 3, 2016 by Ari

[IndigoAjah]

The way Brandon's talked about this similarity seems to imply that for most magic systems said "spiritual cracks" are a prerequisite of Initiation in general.

I'd say it's an interesting discussion to have, because we don't exactly know when the cracks would be regarded as "full." We know there are variations to have many powers you can have, (with the maximum for Scadrian investiture being no less than being a full Feruchemist and lerasium Mistborn, as the Lord Ruler demonstrated, although arguably lerasium might have got him around that maximum somehow, in which case the normal max would be being Mistborn or a full Feruchemist) so it's a bit open to debate.

I'd actually have thought the biggest obstacle to being a Radiant Misting (or similar) would actually be that you'd need a Spiritual Connection to both Scadrial and Roshar. You could possibly hack this with feruchemy or feruchemical medallions using generic connection to attract a Spren and swear the oaths, although I'd find it very interesting whether your abilities as a Radiant would be able to function when you're not tapping generic connection on Roshar if you employed that hack, or if you'd need to do something to permanently write a connection to Roshar into your spirit web. (which maybe could be a human attribute you could spike someone for...)

But if a Spren, a conscious splinter of Honor or Cultivation some suspect, made a deliberate decision to bond you, surely that is a connection with Roshar and its Shards?

[Yata]

But if a Spren, a conscious splinter of Honor or Cultivation some suspect, made a deliberate decision to bond you, surely that is a connection with Roshar and its Shards?

For the nature of Surgebinding I don't think that Conncection is something meaningful to obtain or use that kind of abilities.

[Ari]

But if a Spren, a conscious splinter of Honor or Cultivation some suspect, made a deliberate decision to bond you, surely that is a connection with Roshar and its Shards?

 

I don't know! It would be interesting to see

 

It totally makes sense that you'd be able to call on your Spren's abilities while tapping generic connection on Roshar, and you'd probably still be bonded to the Spren even when not tapping Connection... (although possibly it would have an interesting effect on the Spren similar to what happened to Elantrian Seons...) however we don't exactly have good evidence one way or another whether temporary rewrites like somehow spiking yourself with someone else's connection to their planet, or tapping generic connection on another planet, would be enough to maintain access to the magic system after your connection runs out or your spike was removed. Hoid seems to have permanent access to Feruchemy and probably Allomancy despite being from Yolen, but we don't know whether he did a permanent rewrite to his sDNA as opposed to a temporary one in order to get it. (I wonder if, for instance, alloying a metalmind with connection stored in it with Lerasium would permanently add connection to where you currently are into your sDNA, allowing you to always be a Radiant/etc...)

 

It's a matter of whether Brandon thinks you would need the spiritual connection to a place just to get initiated, or if it's a requirement to even use the power in the first place. Based on events in Elantris, I would expect Brandon would lean towards the latter type of system.

 

We do know that when Hoid used allomancy he was on Roshar, which is definitely evidence that there's a way to both get access to another planet's power and use that power on an unrelated third planet. (Which rules out using Feruchemical connection to enable the power to work) So it's just a matter of us not having thought of the particular hack that could make you able to be, say, an Allomancer on Roshar despite coming from Yolen, or being, I don't know, a Radiant on Sel despite coming from Threnody or something. What Hoid's managed to do doesn't (yet) fit what we know about Feruchemy or Hemalurgy, and it takes a lot of speculation to get there. (eg. Hoid has a hidden hemalurgical spike that works a way we don't know, or alloying metalminds with Lerasium hacks Lerasium the same way being a Twinborn hacks Allomancy)

Edited April 4, 2016 by Ari