A war between Scadrial (era 2) and Roshar

[Master_Moridin he/him]

There are a bunch of factors other than how many arms you use that determine how much strength you're using. Using two arms /= two times the strength of using one arm even using one arm you typically use your entire body to put in the effort, adding the second arm only adds the strength of the arm, not the strength of your whole body.

 

I find D&D rules of 1.5 times your strength one-handed tends to be somewhat kinda accurate

[A Windspren he/him]

Even if gravity on Roshar is weaker, it doesn't mean that Rosharans are weaker than Scadrians. People on Roshar have the inherent ability to absorb small amounts of Stormlight, and they are much taller (the average height is 6 ft) than Scadrians. Being on a planet with weaker gravity does not necessarily mean that you are weak, especially since we don't know Scadrial's gravity. It could be 0.5 Gs for all we know.

 

As for Steelrunners, all a Shardbearer has to do is swing his Blade in a circle.

 

And emotional Allomancy is easily countered by the Thrill, which also lends strength. I'm assuming that it will only affect Rosharan troops, because you need a Connection to Odium (which is why Radiants lose the ability to feel it).

Edited April 5, 2016 by Kevino36

[Voidus]

Even if gravity on Roshar is weaker, it doesn't mean that Rosharans are weaker than Scadrians. People on Roshar have the inherent ability to absorb small amounts of Stormlight, and they are much taller (the average height is 6 ft) than Scadrians. Being on a planet with weaker gravity does not necessarily mean that you are weak, especially since we don't know Scadrial's gravity. It could be 0.5 Gs for all we know.

 

As for Steelrunners, all a Shardbearer has to do is swing his Blade in a circle.

 

And emotional Allomancy is easily countered by the Thrill, which also lends strength. I'm assuming that it will only affect Rosharan troops, because you need a Connection to Odium (which is why Radiants lose the ability to feel it).

But they've struggled under what we would call equivalent weights, swords still seem heavy even though to us they would all feel incredibly light, they struggle to lift a body the same size as them, Bridgemen get severe exhaustion, etc. I believe we do have Scadrials from somewhere, I'll check quickly.

And the Steelrunner can step over that blade lightly then stab them in the face, since to them that spinning blade is barely moving.

Rioting and Soothing could easily prevent the Thrill from taking a hold at all, they tend to be a lot more subtle than is necessary because it produces better results, Soothers could definitely soothe more powerfully if they wanted to. Or a Rioter could run with the Thrill and elevate it to the point of Berserking the entire Rosharan army, leading them to slaughtering themselves.

[A Windspren he/him]

If you mean the weight of Shardblades, it's because most people think of them as weightless. They're not actually featherlight. Additionally, we don't see Vasher have strength twice that of ordinary people, and he has the Returned thing going for him too.

 

With what the speed that Shardbearers swing their Blades, and the fact that a Steelrunner can only move at 140% their normal speed without hurting themselves, it would still be very difficult to avoid being hit.

 

Emotional Allomancy would be swept away by the Thrill, as the Unmade are way more Invested than a Misting. In Jah Keved, Nergaoul (the Unmade that causes the Thrill) was very close to Jah Keved, but it just caused the soldiers to fight their enemies with more ferocity. It wouldn't cause them to turn on themselves.

[Charlie.x.3000]

Where did this 140% normal speed thing come from? The books say that Feuruchemy is end neutral. So, you store 30% speed for 1h hour. You have 0.3 Speed*Hours. Which is converted into 18 Speed*Minute, (From perspective of the SteelRunner, 18x speed for 1 minute). 1 minute is more than enough time to go in, stab someone in the face leisurely, take their shardblade, then run around the opposing army slicing everyone in half. At 18x speed, everyone would appear to be standing still.

[A Windspren he/him]

A Steelrunner going faster than that would tear themself apart.

[Knight Oblivion]

A Steelrunner going faster than that would tear themself apart.

 

I've been a long time lurker to these forums and joined mostly because this is blatantly wrong. Feruchemy gives one immunity to the effects of the ability being tapped. It's why Wax and other Skimmers don't crush themselves (and can actually move while tapping their ironminds) and why Firesouls don't get brain damage when tapping their brassminds. There's even a WoB about it. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/?p=42125

 

Seriously, Steelrunners are terrifying.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Knight Oblivion

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I've been a long time lurker to these forums and joined mostly because this is blatantly wrong. Feruchemy one immunity to the effects of the ability being tapped. It's why Wax and other Skimmers don't crush themselves (and can actually move while tapping their ironminds) and why Firesouls don't get brain damage when tapping their brassminds. There's even a WoB about it.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/?p=42125

Welcome and well said!

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Now all we have to do is find one Steel Compounder or Steelrunning Thug or Steelrunning Leecher

[Voidus]

If you mean the weight of Shardblades, it's because most people think of them as weightless. They're not actually featherlight. Additionally, we don't see Vasher have strength twice that of ordinary people, and he has the Returned thing going for him too.

 

With what the speed that Shardbearers swing their Blades, and the fact that a Steelrunner can only move at 140% their normal speed without hurting themselves, it would still be very difficult to avoid being hit.

 

Emotional Allomancy would be swept away by the Thrill, as the Unmade are way more Invested than a Misting. In Jah Keved, Nergaoul (the Unmade that causes the Thrill) was very close to Jah Keved, but it just caused the soldiers to fight their enemies with more ferocity. It wouldn't cause them to turn on themselves.

No I mean all swords should feel like that, if a Shardblade is noticeably lighter than a normal sword then to us it would feel literally weightless, to Rosharans it obviously doesn't, so they have proportional strength. We see almost nothing of Vasher, also I don't believe we have WoB on Nalthis' size or gravity.

Steelrunners can run very, very fast before hurting themselves.

How much Investiture you have doesn't matter if you don't use it all, the Thrill is not a vastly overpowering emotion so Mistings will be able to supress or alter it.

So if it was stronger then it could cause them to fight amongst themselves, a Misting could cause it to become stronger.

[Pathfinder]

Wow, get swamped with work, leave the forums for one day, and have to come back and catch up with 2 to 3 pages of back and forth. I am going to double post because in the next I am going to attempt to respond to everyone.....This is going to take awhile lolol (and probably there will be another page of posts added in the meantime lol)

[Pathfinder]

Thanks a ton Pathfinder for pulling the relevant quotes! That is awesome of you.

 

 

 

- - - - - Pathfinder's post plus my responses (in bold) - - - - - 

 

page 15 Well of Ascension Vin is fighting a haze killer squad that has three thugs. One thug catches her in the ribs with a dueling cane and literally flings her across the street from that blow alone.

 

Vin is tiny slip of a girl and, during a fight, would naturally (especially while burning pewter) move with the direction of the hit to reduce the impact; even when caught entirely by surprise the body would probably try to "go with the flow".

 

page 493 Well of Ascension, A coinshot starts to fly away, and Vin smacks him out of midair with a dueling cane throwing him to the side. So with pewter she literally swats another person out of mid air like a fly, changing the direction he is going

 

Changing the direction of something in motion is much easier than changing moving that is at a "dead" stop. (See what I did there... dead stop haha). 

 

page 631 Well of Ascension, Zane kicks oreseur wolf hound form tumbling across the floor. 

 

This is, to me, one of the more compelling examples but even a large wolfhound probably does not weigh as much as a warform Parshendi. Also, see the previous about rolling with the punches.

 

page 734 Well of Ascension, Vin flares pewter and punches a koloss (5 feet taller than her, so roughly 10 ft tall), in the face cracking the skull. No duralumin

 

An impressive feat of strength, for sure, but in the realm of shardplate I would label it as unremarkable at best.

 

Now for the Way of Kings portion

page 379 Way of Kings Dalinar kicks the parshendi corpse sending it tumbling 30 ft

 

Adding the full quote: "Then [Dalinar] kicked, tossing a corpse into the faces of the Parshendi nearby. A few more kicks sent corpses flying—a Plate-driven kick could easily send a body tumbling thirty feet—clearing the ground around him for better footing."

 

This is the money quote. As anyone who has been forced to carry an unconscious person can attest, moving dead weight (same joke, again!) is very, very different from moving a conscious person. In this case the Parshendi was dead, not unconscious, but that means a large, dense, heavy corpse is changed from being completely at "rest" (the jokes just don't stop!) to being launched into the air and into someone's face. Not only that but it is such an easy task for a shardbearer that they can do it, repeatedly, in the middle of intense combat. It seems like it is easier for a shardbearer to repeatedly kick corpses into the air than it would be for you or me to kick soccer balls that are lined up neatly in a row.

 

page 780 Way of Kings Dalinar kicks a parshendi in the chest, sending him 20 ft

 

- - - - - Pathfinder's post ends - - - - -

 

For some reason I did not like the way this looked in the quote box so I did this instead haha.

 

I really do think there is a clear advantage to strength in the shardplate department. That is not to say that pewter is "weak" or "useless" by any means but I think if you sat down a thug and a shardplate wearer and had them arm wrestle then the thug, even flaring, would lose without too much of a struggle.

 

That being said, pewter has plenty of its own advantages in terms of innately granting balance/dexterity (remember Renarin having to learn how to hold cups?), providing a healing bonus, increasing stamina (shardbearers get fatigued while fighting at a slower rate than normal people but they definitely wear out faster than a thug) etc. In pure, brute strength however I think the win is clearly in favor of shardplate (in my opinion of course).

so this one is gonna be a long one, because although I showed you the quotes, you did not fully reference the scenes so here we go:

 

She did not use steel to fly with the hit. Read the scene. She got hit, got thrown across the street, and hit the ground hard. Pewter the only reason she didn't break any bones.Also the thug hits her with a dueling cane. As in uses his arm. Unless you skip leg day at the gym, your leg muscles are always far stronger than your arm muscles. So you are going to get more air from a kick than a punch. 

 

So you say hitting a body at rest is harder than changing the direction of a body in motion? Push a car in neutral. Then push a car away from you that is rolling towards you (no gas, just rolling). You mean to tell me pushing the stopped car is easier than pushing an oncoming car away from you? You have to account for the kinetic energy already in the push, as well as it was a sustained push to make the coinshot fly. So she was wacking him out of midair, against his weight and momentum. 

 

That is your guess. Warform has never been weighed. We do know irish wolfhounds average between 140 to 180 pounds. Vin picked the biggest and meanest she could, and you have oresuer who altered the musculature so he could keep up with Vin with running and jumping. You know of any dog on earth that could leap up a story on a building? Kal's men were able to move parshendi warform without comment of "wow this thing is heavy". And if warform is so significantly heavier, then their legs would have to take up most of their body just to leap the chasms. So I feel you are grossly overestimating the weight of warform.

 

Again, pewter is close. It doesn't have to equate to a shardplate. There are more pewter thugs than shards to be bared. I never argued it had to be able to go toe to toe with shardplate. Just be close enough that one would be a problem. Then three could take them out.

 

So refers back to my earlier points. Parshendi aren't as heavy as you think, he sent them tumbling like zane sent oresuer. Also consider how it is written. It says what a shardplate could do. But you take it as assumption that it stated what that kick did do. Reread the scene. He was surrounded by Parshendi. They were right in his face. He swung a 7 foot long blade to clear some space and then kicked the corpses into them. If he had 30 feet of space to kick the corpse, he would not have needed to kick it. So the kick that sent the bodies flying, was not punting them 30 feet. The scene says had he the space, and the inclination, he could kick a parshendi 30 feet tumbling. Just....like....Zane.

 

Now I shall reiterate a point I made later, but because of formating I actually wrote this post from bottom up, but Kaladin was able to take on two shard bearers with only stormlight and shatter their plate. Three thugs on one shardbearer I do not think is any contest and that it would favor the pewter thugs.

 

And if the Shardbearer keeps a hold of his weapon, the Coinshot flies back into a wall and dies. The Nicroburst, Pewterarm and Leecher then get cut in half by a 6 ft long Shardblade.

So the shardbearer is focusing on holding on to the sword and bracing themself by squaring their feet in response to the push, while the leecher taps the back of the armor, draining all the stormlight. Thug then removes helm and crushes the vunerable persons skull. Much like an octopus eating a crab lol. 

 

 

The thing is, simply wearing armor doesn't magically make you immune to anything... If you bash your head against a wall, wearing a helmet or not, you're gonna feel it. Armor doesn't protect against such damage. (Like you see with Iron Man being thrown through a tree, breaking the tree, Tony is fine. That's not how it works.)

Now, Shardplate grant enhancements. Renarin should have snapped his neack, cracked his skull or at least have concussion.

Yeah, that's because we totally know whether Leeching work on Radiants, infused gems... and even if it did, we would still don't know whether it would work on Shardplate.

And for the nicroburst coinshot combo, that's works like once, because after that you need to replenish metals. And both Coinshot and Nicro are sent flying away while Shardbearer has only his Blade knocked away, which he can resummon.

And of course Shardbearer is way more durable than a Thug - remember how high were the rocks Sharbearers can jump off?

One punch to the face from a Shardbearer and Szeth is half dead (so imagine what would it do to a Thug), while Shardplate can withstand multiple hits made by Shardbearers wielding warhammers (and mind those warhammers are made for Shardbearers specifically - not your regular warhammers).

So the full scene with Renarin is he goes up one floor, jumps out 10 feet into the air, and then falls into the sand. A person without shardplate could survive that with bruises, and a broken bone or two depending on how they land. Then he gets up surprised he didn't break anything. Doesn't say he didn't get bruised up or hurt. Just surprised no broken bones. The point of the exercise is to teach Renarin its limits. To learn shardplate protects you, but you are still a squishy ball of organs inside it. 

 

Next, we see a leecher shut down Nazh's spirit gun temporarily. And she has no idea what it was or how it worked. We also have WoB that a leecher could potentially do so with metal minds as well. I do not think it is a stretch at all that a leecher could drain the stormlight from a shardplate leaving it a giant paperweight.

 

Have you ever fought with a sword? Or played baseball and swung a bat? Try gripping it firmly and then swing in various patterns, while holding your grip completely firm. You would only be capable of a few chopping motions, and even those would be limited. You most definitely could not do the broad swings a shardblade typically employs while holding so firmly. Now also take into account as it was pointed out, the pushes and pulls are invisible forces you cannot watch for. A coinshot or lurcher does not need to extend their hand or do anything that would outwardly hint they are about to push or pull on the blade. So it is either grip the shardblade firmly, limiting your range of motion, and significantly slowing down your attacks, or risk any moment you change the direction of your blade, it will go flying out of your hand. Vin needed pewter when pushing against objects far heavier than herself which is why it nearly tore apart her body. There are plenty of times she did a duralumin steel push without pewter and lived to tell the tale. If you don't believe me, then I will locate it in book during lunch at 1 and post it (but i do need to do some work lol). Now admittedly this is my own interpretation, but I see the WoB regarding pushing on a shardblade to mean, in order to affect a shardblade like any other sword, you need duralumin or nicrosil. Plenty of characters have used steel to push on swords without any anchor to deadly results. So the only issue would be the shardbearer's grip on the blade as mentioned, which I already replied to. During combat you cannot be vigilant 100 percent of the time to something you cannot even see even if you know to expect it. Especially when fighting a pewter arm whose descriptions of fighting, mirrors stormlight (weapons blurring in speed, leaping 7 feet effortlessly, reacting to and deflecting weapons like the opponent is moving at a snails pace. All scenes in mistborn from a thug attacking Elend and Vin) 

 

 

I find D&D rules of 1.5 times your strength one-handed tends to be somewhat kinda accurate

Actually 1.5 is in regards to wielding two handed weapons with both hands. When a creature with greater size wields a two handed weapon, it is treated as one handed and loses the strength bonus to damage. Then again I am basing what I am saying on 3.5 rules. 

 

 

 

If you mean the weight of Shardblades, it's because most people think of them as weightless. They're not actually featherlight. Additionally, we don't see Vasher have strength twice that of ordinary people, and he has the Returned thing going for him too.

 

With what the speed that Shardbearers swing their Blades, and the fact that a Steelrunner can only move at 140% their normal speed without hurting themselves, it would still be very difficult to avoid being hit.

 

Emotional Allomancy would be swept away by the Thrill, as the Unmade are way more Invested than a Misting. In Jah Keved, Nergaoul (the Unmade that causes the Thrill) was very close to Jah Keved, but it just caused the soldiers to fight their enemies with more ferocity. It wouldn't cause them to turn on themselves.

Kaladin using only stormlight was able to move faster than a shardbearer swinging their blades. Steelrunners run fast enough that they get bullet time. The only hard limit on them is wind resistance and the force on their body when they strike something which both issues have been responded to. Wind resistance would come into play at far higher speeds (breaking the sound barrier for instance), and the force on their body is negligible if they only have to slide a knife into an eye, and then use a shardblade to sweep through human bodies. It would only be an issue if the speedster used the shardblade on another shardplate. Then the force would break their arm

 

Ok I think that covered all the points I missed. Whew! This might be my longest post ever! lol

 

edit: also I apologize if I came off short or derisive at any point in my post towards anyone. It is a lot of text that I wrote, with not much space to view it in window, so it is difficult to edit, nor do I have the time to adequately edit it. So please no one take what I write personal. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I won't quote Pathfinder because wow! What a post! Bravo for responding to everything and no worries about tone; I read everything in Morgan Freeman's voice to avoid accidentally misunderstanding someone's tone in a post!

At this point, without either more books or a WoB, we are probably stuck. I feel like both sides have good arguments and that we are simply interpreting things a bit different. I look forward to the day when Brandon clears this up and we can move on to arguing whether or not Marsh could defeat the Sovereign haha. Cheers to everyone who contributed - I had a ton of fun!

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Just 2 corrections to make to that excellent post, Pathfinder:

 

1) your allegory for the dead weight vs momentum bit is misleading. If Vin had been hit straight backward against her momentum, that would take more force than hitting her from a dead start (assuming the momentum > inertia which given Vin's mass and Scadrial's gravity is definite). But hitting her at a Vector of 90 degrees would take slightly less force (due to no inertia secondary to contact with the floor) and hitting her at a vector that continued partly towards her original momentum (very possible) would be less force again. However, the feat is still impressive with arm strength only (he wasn't swinging at the waist as far as we can tell, so it's ridiculously impressive).

 

2) Logically, as they don't have any clear use of Iron Feruchemy, Kandra cannot change their weight. Mass is constant. They can change their shape and we KNOW they alter their density, but their mass should be constant and approximately that of a man (given they were all originally Terris people, right? Or at least based on the originals who were). Thus actually that wolfhound weighed as much as a man and is HEAVIER than everyone is assuming

 

 

EDIT:

 

I really don't think we are stuck, good arguments have been made for the Rosharians in small areas but I'd say the balance of evidence in hugely in favour of a Scadrial victory unless we give the Rosharians more Radiants than we can. If we skew the rules for Roshar, they can win, but actually matching up any definitive timelines we have looks very one sided

Edited April 5, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[Pathfinder]

I won't quote Pathfinder because wow! What a post! Bravo for responding to everything and no worries about tone; I read everything in Morgan Freeman's voice to avoid accidentally misunderstanding someone's tone in a post!

At this point, without either more books or a WoB, we are probably stuck. I feel like both sides have good arguments and that we are simply interpreting things a bit different. I look forward to the day when Brandon clears this up and we can move on to arguing whether or not Marsh could defeat the Sovereign haha. Cheers to everyone who contributed - I had a ton of fun!

LOL ironically my fiance's cousin jokes all the time that he could listen to me talk for hours because, and I quote "sound like a white Morgan Freeman" and thank you for the compliment as well 

 

Just 2 corrections to make to that excellent post, Pathfinder:

 

1) your allegory for the dead weight vs momentum bit is misleading. If Vin had been hit straight backward against her momentum, that would take more force than hitting her from a dead start (assuming the momentum > inertia which given Vin's mass and Scadrial's gravity is definite). But hitting her at a Vector of 90 degrees would take slightly less force (due to no inertia secondary to contact with the floor) and hitting her at a vector that continued partly towards her original momentum (very possible) would be less force again. However, the feat is still impressive with arm strength only (he wasn't swinging at the waist as far as we can tell, so it's ridiculously impressive).

 

2) Logically, as they don't have any clear use of Iron Feruchemy, Kandra cannot change their weight. Mass is constant. They can change their shape and we KNOW they alter their density, but their mass should be constant and approximately that of a man (given they were all originally Terris people, right? Or at least based on the originals who were). Thus actually that wolfhound weighed as much as a man and is HEAVIER than everyone is assuming

 

 

EDIT:

 

I really don't think we are stuck, good arguments have been made for the Rosharians in small areas but I'd say the balance of evidence in hugely in favour of a Scadrial victory unless we give the Rosharians more Radiants than we can. If we skew the rules for Roshar, they can win, but actually matching up any definitive timelines we have looks very one sided

Thank you for the compliment. Just one thing I wanted to clarify. The momentum thing is regarding two different scenes. When Vin was smacked by the thug, sending her flying, she was stationary. The reason I brought up steel was to say she didn't "roll with" the punch using steel to fly away from the attack. She was plain and simple smacked from standing to across the street. In the scene I brought up momentum, a coinshot in the audience went to fly away. She came up and smacked him as he was in midair, altering his course so the side. If what you said stands for that still, then I defer to greater physics knowledge than I could ever hope to have. I just didn't want the two scenes to merge confusing the issue. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[CaptainRyan he/him]

@IndigoAjah Sorry, when I meant stuck I was referring to the massive tangent of pewter vs shardplate in terms of strength.

As to the OP I think it is pretty clear that Era 2 Scadrial is clearly dominant unless/until Rosharans advance technologically. Even then, I, personally, would say the Metallic Arts give the advantage.

Edited April 5, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Ah yeah.

 

Personally I think Plate > 1 Pewterarm, and maybe in terms of strength > even 4-5 but when you add in the advantage of numbers, I think they win if they get inside sword range, unless the Bearer can one shot them all with a strike each and even then they might have time to get him down and then he is screwed.

 

 

The biggest question there for me is whether he could kill them before they get inside his reach, which I think is actually very hard against Pewter but will admit that is subjective.

 

Also, the Shardbearer would have normal guards so the Thugs would need support to stop them from being attacked by those

[CaptainRyan he/him]

LOL ironically my fiance's cousin jokes all the time that he could listen to me talk for hours because, and I quote "sound like a white Morgan Freeman"

Thank you for the compliment. Just one thing I wanted to clarify. The momentum thing is regarding two different scenes. When Vin was smacked by the thug, sending her flying, she was stationary. The reason I brought up steel was to say she didn't "roll with" the punch using steel to fly away from the attack. She was plain and simple smacked from standing to across the street. In the scene I brought up momentum, a coinshot in the audience went to fly away. She came up and smacked him as he was in midair, altering his course so the side. If what you said stands for that still, then I defer to greater physics knowledge than I could ever hope to have. I just didn't want the two scenes to merge confusing the issue.

For full clarity, I was not saying Vin used steel to push away from the thug smacking her but rather that her instincts would have helped her to move with the blow in order to lessen the damage. An example might be that if I pushed someone and they fell down and then, while falling, they tucked into the fall and rolled. Vin was burning pewter at the time (I assume) so those instincts would have been heightened by the pewter.

With the coinshot being hit in midair by Vin there are a lot of possibilities depending on the coinshot's momentum and angle to their anchor, Vin's momentum and angle of attack along with the coinshot's final momentum and angle. If the coinshot kept pushing on their original anchor after Vin struck them then perhaps that is why the coinshot was shoved so powerfully - the hit from Vin altered their angle to their anchor and that caused them to drift off course.

I also recognize that this is completely rampant speculation but it is also worth noting that Brandon is limited in how much minute detail he can provide. I am merely suggesting, what seem like to me, plausible scenarios where, if Brandon says shardplate is a good deal stronger, we could reconcile the differences. Honestly, I could turn out to be totally wrong. (This happens often haha) I think you, and others, have made some excellent points in favor of pewter.

edit: Hahaha seriously? Maybe you have some stored connection to Morgan Freeman!

Edited April 5, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[Pathfinder]

For full clarity, I was not saying Vin used steel to push away from the thug smacking her but rather that her instincts would have helped her to move with the blow in order to lessen the damage. An example might be that if I pushed someone and they fell down and then, while falling, they tucked into the fall and rolled. Vin was burning pewter at the time (I assume) so those instincts would have been heightened by the pewter.

With the coinshot being hit in midair by Vin there are a lot of possibilities depending on the coinshot's momentum and angle to their anchor, Vin's momentum and angle of attack along with the coinshot's final momentum and angle. If the coinshot kept pushing on their original anchor after Vin struck them then perhaps that is why the coinshot was shoved so powerfully - the hit from Vin altered their angle to their anchor and that caused them to drift off course.

I also recognize that this is completely rampant speculation but it is also worth noting that Brandon is limited in how much minute detail he can provide. I am merely suggesting, what seem like to me, plausible scenarios where, if Brandon says shardplate is a good deal stronger, we could reconcile the differences. Honestly, I could turn out to be totally wrong. (This happens often haha) I think you, and others, have made some excellent points in favor of pewter.

edit: Hahaha seriously? Maybe you have some stored connection to Morgan Freeman!

Not saying anyone's interpretation is wrong or right, but I figured how about I actually post the scenes for reference. Here they are:

 

Well of Ascension page 15 kindle edition:

Her preoccupation with the Watcher nearly cost her her life as an unoticed Thug charged her from the side. it was the man whose legs she'd slashed. Vin reacted just in time to dodge his blow. This, however, put her into range of the other three. All attacked at once. She actually managed to twist out of the way of two of the strikes. one, however, crashed into her side. The powerful blow tossed her across the street, and she collided with the shop's wooden door. She heard a crack - from the door, fortunately, and not her bones - and she slumped to the ground, daggers lost. A normal person would be dead. her pewter-strengthened body, however, was tougher than that.

 

Well of AScension page 493 kindle edition:

Vin kicked up the staff of the man she'd just killed, catching it. A Coinshot cried out as she growled and dashed toward them, spinning her weapon. One had the presence of mind to Push off the bleachers and launch himself away. Vin's weapon still caught him in midair, throwing him to the side. The next swing took down his companion, who had tried to dash away.

 

Also while I am at it, some instances where Vin just burned steel or iron with duralumin without pewter. Now it could be said that Sanderson just didn't mention pewter at those moments but in the previous scenes, three times he made a point to mention pewter every time she pushed or pulled on something with duralumin, needing to burn it to not be crushed. So it would seem rather unlike Sanderson to make a point to do it three times, but then forget to do it twice

 

Well of Ascension page 568 kindle edition

Vin ducked down as the waves of men surrounded her. She turned her head up, eyes closed, and burned duralumin. Then she Pulled. Stained glass windows set in metal frames inside their arches exploded around the room. She felt the metal frames burst inward, twisting on themselves before her awesome power. She imagined twinkling slivers of multicolored glass in the air. She heard men scream as glass and metal hit them, embedding in their flesh

 

Well of Ascension page 568 kindle edition

She Pushed against a broken metal frame, throwing herself over the heads of soldiers, landing outside the large circle of attackers. The outer line of men was down, impaled by the glass shards and twisted metal frames. Vin raised a hand and bowed her head. Duralumin and steel. She Pushed. The world lurched. Vin shot out into the mists through a broken window as she Pushed against the line of corpses impaled by metal frames. The bodies were thrown away from her, smashing into the men who were still alive in the center.

 

LOL, I kid you not. He said it the first time we all hung out at comic con. He said if he ever had his life story told, he would want me to narrate it. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[A Windspren he/him]

On the battlefield, how is the Leecher supposed to get behind the Shardbearer? What happens is:

 

The Coinshot tries to push on Blade, then goes flying backward and dies.

The Leecher either goes straight for the Shardbearer and dies from a Blade through the chest, or tries to sneak behind the Shardbearer and is killed by the Rosharan army, because Shardbearers fight at the front of an entire army, and they have a personal guard.

The Pewterarm tries to approach the Shardbearer and either dies from the Blade or gets punched 30 feet. He might survive, but a second punch or the Blade changes that when he tries to attack again.

 

We know that warform Parshendi are very dense because even the floods in the chasms during a Highstorm have a hard time moving them.

 

I don't understand the comment about swords being weightless on Earth, because that makes absolutely no sense.

 

Now, even with the current Roshar situation, we've seen that the Stormfather can control Highstorms. As soon as the Scadrian army all Worldhop in, a perpetual Highstorm centered over their location kills them all off.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

The Highfather who has basically told Dalinar that he's autonomous and whose last acts were to try to kill all the ROSHARIANS, try to stop Kaladin becoming a Radiant even though it meant killing Syl despite saying it was to stop him killing Syl and just generally being an active hindrance to the Alethi?

Yeah I'm certain he'll help them out, despite thus far doing the opposite.

You don't just send in a bunch of Mistings unprotected, they'll have support too. Support with guns and as we've said stronger than Rosharians. And I've seen little to convince me that the Shardbearer is going to actually hit the Pewterarm. Whom he has no idea has special powers be use he looks like a normal soldier. And his instinct is to say "where's my sword gone" and trying to summon it back.

No way

[Pathfinder]

On the battlefield, how is the Leecher supposed to get behind the Shardbearer? What happens is:

 

The Coinshot tries to push on Blade, then goes flying backward and dies.

The Leecher either goes straight for the Shardbearer and dies from a Blade through the chest, or tries to sneak behind the Shardbearer and is killed by the Rosharan army, because Shardbearers fight at the front of an entire army, and they have a personal guard.

The Pewterarm tries to approach the Shardbearer and either dies from the Blade or gets punched 30 feet. He might survive, but a second punch or the Blade changes that when he tries to attack again.

 

We know that warform Parshendi are very dense because even the floods in the chasms during a Highstorm have a hard time moving them.

 

I don't understand the comment about swords being weightless on Earth, because that makes absolutely no sense.

 

Now, even with the current Roshar situation, we've seen that the Stormfather can control Highstorms. As soon as the Scadrian army all Worldhop in, a perpetual Highstorm centered over their location kills them all off.

Pretty much everything IndigoAjah said. My example was in regards to kill squads for shardbearers like hazekillers for mistborns. What kind of competent commander or unit would sent their group at what amounts to a tank one at a time? The point was a coordinated attack. Add to that you state the shardbearer would have guards. Yes they would have normal, everyday no ability human guards. That can get picked off by the coinshot in a few seconds, between using the nicroburst to disarm the shardbearer, while downing vials of steel from his or her bandoleer. The alternative is a full army marching, as they are mowed down by bullets, as mentioned earlier in this thread, still leaving shardbearers alone. And regarding just resummoning the blade. I was given the impression we are discussion shardbearers as in any old soldier in shardplate and shard blade. If that is the case, then to resummon, takes 10 heartbeats. As shown in Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, a lot can happen in 10 heartbeats. 

 

Alethi troops tend to wear leather armor. Warform seems to be more similar to chain or light plate. Still doesn't mean they weigh as much as was argued. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Knight Oblivion]

Just 2 corrections to make to that excellent post, Pathfinder:

 

2) Logically, as they don't have any clear use of Iron Feruchemy, Kandra cannot change their weight. Mass is constant. They can change their shape and we KNOW they alter their density, but their mass should be constant and approximately that of a man (given they were all originally Terris people, right? Or at least based on the originals who were). Thus actually that wolfhound weighed as much as a man and is HEAVIER than everyone is assuming

 

The thing to remember with Kandra is that they are still living beings that take in material and excrete it. In Hero of Ages, we see TenSoon imprisoned and fairly emaciated. A kandra can increase their mass by eating a person or living being and decrease it by expelling the matter.

 

 

Now, even with the current Roshar situation, we've seen that the Stormfather can control Highstorms. As soon as the Scadrian army all Worldhop in, a perpetual Highstorm centered over their location kills them all off.

 

Is there a WoB detailing the exact degree of control the Stormfather has over Highstorms that I'm unaware of? To my knowledge, his ability to control the Highstorms extends to sending them out. That's all we have evidence for his control over them as far as I'm aware. Not to mention that Highstorms by definition are unidirectional storms filled with investiture that lose their intensity the further west they go, presumably due to losing momentum and such by passing all the mountains on Roshar.

 

 

Now, before I go off to look for WoB's to create a decent argument for this thread, I have some questions regarding the situation we're discussing as the answers could be vastly change the match-up. So, what time are we discussing, Right around The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance or something properly in Era 2 Scadrial? By my understanding, trying to match Roshar's capabilities anywhere near the Wax and Wayne novels is an exercise of pure speculation while we have some knowledge of what Scadrial was like roughly around the current Stormlight Archive novels. Secondly, what planet would this war take place on? This is, of course, ignoring any issues with worldhopping armies/scouts/supplies/etc. since neither planet has the capability to do any mass worldhopping by their respective latest books. Thirdly, who are the actual combatants? Scadrial most likely has 6 distinct polities (the Elendel Basin counting as one and counting the 5 peoples in South Scadrial as 5 separate polities) while Roshar has many but we only know a good deal about the military of, by a generous estimate, one to three (Jah Keved doesn't have much fight left after its civil war or during it and Kharbranth is a small city-state which most likely has more surgeons/healers than soldiers).

 

Sorry for the large block of text. I just feel like the discussion could be better served if we all agree on the actual situation the hypothetical war would take place, something that I've seen has been a problem in the last 11 pages.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Knight Oblivion

[Argel he/him]

I think it's pretty telling that the prevailing assumption is Scadrial invading Roshar. If Roshar doesn't have a way to take the fight to Scardial, then the war seems to be Scadrial's to lose.

[A Windspren he/him]

The Highfather who has basically told Dalinar that he's autonomous and whose last acts were to try to kill all the ROSHARIANS, try to stop Kaladin becoming a Radiant even though it meant killing Syl despite saying it was to stop him killing Syl and just generally being an active hindrance to the Alethi?

Yeah I'm certain he'll help them out, despite thus far doing the opposite.

You don't just send in a bunch of Mistings unprotected, they'll have support too. Support with guns and as we've said stronger than Rosharians. And I've seen little to convince me that the Shardbearer is going to actually hit the Pewterarm. Whom he has no idea has special powers be use he looks like a normal soldier. And his instinct is to say "where's my sword gone" and trying to summon it back.

No way

 

Yep, and right after that he bonded Dalinar, giving him Surgebinding abilities. If you're going to bring in the willingness of those on each side to fight, you would be hard-pressed to convince a bunch of Scadrians to invade Roshar for no reason.

 

You seem to have ignored basically everything we've discussed so far about the Coinshot vs Shardbearer situation. Unless the Conshot also had Feruchemic Iron, they would go flying back and likely die. As for the strength of Scadrians, we have no info about Scadrial's gravity, so you can't really say anything about that. Also, Rosharans have a small amount of Stormlight in their systems, which grants strength. They are also much taller than Scadrians, which also helps counteract whatever weakness lower gravity causes.