Can the bands be considered the actual Bands of Mourning? (BoM spoilers)

[DeadFencer]

The Bands of Mourning we see in the book are the bands the Soverign used. He (probably Kelsier) had access to all 32 powers, yes. However, he was not TLR. No matter how long he had been compounding, TLR's 1000 years of it would provide more power. At some point, there existed feruchemical bracers containing that power, which was a far larger source than the bands of the Soverign. Are these other bands still in existence? And can we truly call the Soverign's bands the bands of mourning?

[Yata he/him]

Actually we have no proof about the "larger source" of power... Once the Metalmind is filled only the size of the metal is a factor.

 

Probably both TLR and anyelse may fill a metalmind in some days of Compound... Rashek was stronger is true, but this probably mean just that He may fill his metalmind in less time but actually the metalmind is capped at the same power... Maybe kelsier took a week to do what Rashek may did in 2 days... But I don't find any other difference in strenght.

[Pagerunner he/him]

You're assuming that Rashek knew and utilized the same techniques that Sovereign used to create medallions and the Bands (which operate on the same principles). I don't think that view is supported by the novel; everyone thought they were created by TLR before he died, but everything attributed to TLR was actually done by Sovereign. The bracers that Vin pushed away to defeat TLR were not nicrosil; they were just atium to store youth. He didn't lose his powers, he just lost his reserves.

 

It seems you're wondering, then, if Rashek had created his own version of the Bands, would they hold more Feruchemical storage or provide more powerful Allomancy? Using Compounding to fill the metalminds would mean that a more powerful Allomancer could fill them quicker, true, but he would still be limited by the maximum amount the Bands can hold. (Sazed explains early on in the trilogy that a given amount of metal can only hold so much Feruchemical charge.) As to the power of the Allomancy... TLR was a savant in many of his metals, which caused a change in his physiology; I'm not sure if Nicrosil would carry those changes, if you could "tap savantism." Also, we don't know the source of Sovereign's Allomancy; if he got it from a Lerasium bead, then his pure Allomantic strength might have been equal to TLR. (Who did not use Lerasium himself, but achieved the same affect by directly modifying his own spiritual DNA when he used the Well of Ascension.)

[Yata he/him]

thanks Pagerunner, you explained more clearly what I want to say... I made a little mess with my previous post.

[DeadFencer]

if he got it from a Lerasium bead, then his pure Allomantic strength might have been equal to TLR. (Who did not use Lerasium himself, but achieved the same affect by directly modifying his own spiritual DNA when he used the Well of Ascension.)

Pedantic comment time: Rashek's strength was greater than that of a Lerasium Mistborn. He modified his sDNA to have even greater power than Lerasium gave.

[Pagerunner he/him]

Are you sure TLR's Allomancy was more powerful than a lerasium Mistborn? Here's the only quote I could find on the subject:

 

Q: This is the last one here we have from Mistborn: Did the Lord Ruler use lerasium to gain his super Allomantic abilities or did he grant that to himself with the Well's power? If he used the bead, does he count as one of the nine original Allomancers that Sazed mentions?

 

A: Excellent question. He did not use the bead. In all of this he granted himself basically, he rebuilt himself to be extremely powerful and he did not use one of the beads.

 

Source: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1034#12.

 

It doesn't directly compare TLR's strength to a lerasium misting, but since lerasium is just a solid form of the power in the Well, it makes sense to me that Rashek was just as powerful as an Allomancer. His best tricks come from using his Feruchemy, Compounding, the mysterious Allomantic Compounding (which we know is possible, but not what it is or how it works), and Hemalurgy (see here: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#38); it's not all due to his Allomantic strength.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Pagerunner

[natc]

It's mostly because we know through Elend how powerful a lerasium mistborn was.

And unless he had nicrosil to compress his powers with (which doesn't explain the giant 24/7 soothing field unless he managed to regularly compound a metal alloy nobody seemed to realize existed) the Lord Ruler's allomancy was so godlike that he makes Elend look mundane and other non-Vin allomancers seem like utter jokes.

The stained glass was being affected by the steelpushes, copperclouds barely help against his soothing at all, he slams Vin backwards using the metal reserves in her stomach. We don't see him get buffer so he killed Kell with allomantic pewter strength, presumably, and it took one casual slap to break a neck. Spikes can't account for that level of absurdity and his only ones were part of his bracers as well.

Edited March 17, 2016 by natc

[Yata he/him]

In a WoB He said that If Vin eat a Lerasium bead, she will become a Mistborn more powerfull than Elend, therefore the power obtained throught a bead don't create an allomancer with capped power. (For example if Elend will eat another Lerasium Bead his Allomancy will be greater improbed).

 

Also because Rashek was a Preservation's Sliver and Mister Sanderson said that a Lerasium Mistborn start to get near the amount of Investiture needed to be a Preservation's Sliver.

 

All this words to say that Rashek was more powerfull of Elend, but we don't know if the feats we saw are only the result of his Allomancy Strenght or if he used some Feruchemy trick to perform some of them (For example tapping Identity or Connection while burning Zinc/brass may have some effect with the efficienty like tapping Iron will influence a Steelpush)

[natc]

Well, Vin was mistborn to begin with, and the lerasium is probably going to build on that.

Elend and Rashek were non-allomancers, it's a comparable range.

Tapping iron only makes pushing more massive objects easier, due to mass mechanics being involved. It doesn't make your steel any stronger, and definitely won't help you with objects thst simply resist steelpushing itself. Identity and connection might enhance results in a vacuum, but I have doubts as to whether it would make a difference with a coppercloud to punch through.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Are we sure the lord ruler's extremely powerful allomancy wasn't just a result of nicrosil?

[natc]

Was chromium even produced in the Empire? If not he'd have to use Ascension to make some for bracers, which would mean limited stock and thus no compounding. Which makes his constant soothing seem out of place.

I'd find it weird if he didn't put chromium and nicrosil in the cavern messages if they were available. Great anti-Inquisitor usage if Ruin is free.

[Landis963 he/him]

Was chromium even produced in the Empire? If not he'd have to use Ascension to make some for bracers, which would mean limited stock and thus no compounding. Which makes his constant soothing seem out of place.

I'd find it weird if he didn't put chromium and nicrosil in the cavern messages if they were available. Great anti-Inquisitor usage if Ruin is free.

 

Where would he get it?  If Rashek put a handy-dandy source of chromium within reach, Ruin would know about it, and once the Lord Ruler was out of the way, hello Inquisitors with Leecher powers.  It took a great deal of obfuscation to hide the atium from Ruin, remember, and that even that cover was almost blown by Vin's old thieving crew.  

[natc]

Exactly. He seemed to have no way to get more. That's literally my entire point. By consequence he can't compound it, which would make his strength not constant. But it clearly appears to be.

[Yata he/him]

Tapping iron only makes pushing more massive objects easier, due to mass mechanics being involved. It doesn't make your steel any stronger, and definitely won't help you with objects thst simply resist steelpushing itself. Identity and connection might enhance results in a vacuum, but I have doubts as to whether it would make a difference with a coppercloud to punch through.

The idea (it's not mine but I like it) with the Identity is to became a better "anchor" or source of Emotional Allomancy.

Connection probably may work improving the "channel" through the Emotional Allomancy works....Maybe with it everyone in the plaza recive the Rashek Strenght like if they was near to him or something like that.

 

Well of course we have no proofs but Rashek really may know some trick to performe some epic feat just using his abilities smartly.

[Oversleep]

I prefer the term Survivor's Spear

Now the question is: what happened to the true Bands Of Mourning?
What we know:

• Vin was able to Push them on Pull them out of body (but she was burning mists at the time, so... irrelevant)
• they consistsed of surprisingly small amount of atium
• Elend sold them

So they can still be out there, but the issue is... would TLR make them

• unkeyed
• some strange thing for nicrosil to be tappable by anyone (since it's something weird going on with medallions and Survivor's Spear)?

If not, there can be a whole lot of power locked in the Bands with nobody able to take it. Unless somebody figures out how to hack Feruchemy.

[Yata he/him]

I prefer the term Survivor's Spear

Now the question is: what happened to the true Bands Of Mourning?

What we know:

• Vin was able to Push them on Pull them out of body (but she was burning mists at the time, so... irrelevant)
• they consistsed of surprisingly small amount of atium
• Elend sold them

So they can still be out there, but the issue is... would TLR make them

• unkeyed
• some strange thing for nicrosil to be tappable by anyone (since it's something weird going on with medallions and Survivor's Spear)?

If not, there can be a whole lot of power locked in the Bands with nobody able to take it. Unless somebody figures out how to hack Feruchemy.

If they exist in the first place, they will be destroyed now.

 

If you alter the composition of a "Metallic Arts"'s Metal it will lose it's Feruchemical Charge... If TLR used some Atium Alloy, its power would vanish once separated and we know they have dismounted the Rashek Metalmind to recover any trace of Atium... I find unlikely they didn't try to melt everything to try to find some other bit of Atium.

 

Therefore if the Bands was actually real, now there are just some kind of metal trash (with or without their original Charge)

Edited March 19, 2016 by Yata

[junior]

If Rashek's original bands still exist, then a likely location for them is in whatever remains of the palace.  And as we learned in SoS, at least part of it is located in the Homelands.

 

Now having said that, I suspect that there's not much point in chasing down Rashek's bands.  I think it unlikely that he would have created jewelry that could be used by anyone, particularly given his thoughts on magic.  Remember that Rashek tried to wipe out feruchemy.  And he had laws in place to prevent ska from getting the ability to burn metals.  As a result, I can't see him creating an item that would allow anyone to burn metals, or that would utilize a form of magic (feruchemy) that he was doing his best to destroy.

[Oversleep]

If Rashek's original bands still exist, then a likely location for them is in whatever remains of the palace.  And as we learned in SoS, at least part of it is located in the Homelands.

 

Now having said that, I suspect that there's not much point in chasing down Rashek's bands.  I think it unlikely that he would have created jewelry that could be used by anyone, particularly given his thoughts on magic.  Remember that Rashek tried to wipe out feruchemy.  And he had laws in place to prevent ska from getting the ability to burn metals.  As a result, I can't see him creating an item that would allow anyone to burn metals, or that would utilize a form of magic (feruchemy) that he was doing his best to destroy.

On the other hand, he created a number of failsafe plans - he didn't think he could have been killed, but he planned for it anyways. Setting up the bands could have been a way for people to be able to defeat agents of Ruin - Inquisitors and koloss. Of course, if only he knew he was making puppets for Ruin, that is. He didn't.

[natc]

Sure he did.

He wrote the Resolution into the First Contract specifically to deny Ruin of the Kandra. Removing the spikes wouldn't serve much of a purpose besides this.

With the other two he didn't really have much to work with. Their loyalty is based on the Flaw, while the Kandra's loyalty to him is deeply ingrained in culture and religion.

Edited March 20, 2016 by natc

[Landis963 he/him]

Sure he did.

He wrote the Resolution into the First Contract specifically to deny Ruin of the Kandra. Removing the spikes wouldn't serve much of a purpose besides this.

With the other two he didn't really have much to work with. Their loyalty is based on the Flaw, while the Kandra's loyalty to him is deeply ingrained in culture and religion.

 

This.  Notice that The Lord Ruler didn't trust the koloss anywhere near the towns and cities in the Final Empire, nor did he trust the Inquisitors until political jockeying caused Lord Tevidian to be ousted from the Steel Ministry.  

[jag519 he/him]

But as we know about Rashek, he's selfish, I think a real bands of mourning wouldn't exist.  That was the main problem I had with the introduction of them, the theory that the lord ruler would make it so anyone could use it doesn't seem likely to me.  I'd say the legends came from Kel doing it so his is the only bands of mourning. 

 

Also, didn't we have WoB that the bands he did use ended up with Hoid? I might be making that up, but i thought so

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

I don't buy Rashek creating anything like the Bands of Mourning. It is just totally out of character for him and furthermore makes no sense to his plans to deal with Ruin. Yes he made many contingency plans, but each of them at least made some kind of sense toward a reasonable end goal. With the bands...seriously why?

 

Actually, there are a number of large problems with the "real" bands actually being what is being sought.

 

1. Nicrosil: We have no evidence whatsoever that this alloy existed in the Final Empire. Now I know we have no direct evidence of it not existing either, but there are several problems with assuming it did. First of all, if it did exist, why was it (and Chromium for that matter) not on the message plates? He included Electrum, notably the easy way to beat his most powerful weapon (Atium) there (not to mention the complete collapse of his entire economy), so it makes no sense not to include something like Chromium and Nicrosil if he had them. Second, have you looked up Nicrosil? Take a look at the components and alloy process. It is ridiculously precise (14.4% Chromium, 0.1% Magnesium, 1.4% Silicon, and 84.1% Nickel), not to mention requiring the addition of Silicon. Seriously, this stuff cannot be created outside a modern(ish) lab. And that's not even going into the fact that the process for refining Chromium itself requires temperatures in excess of 1900 degrees centigrade (3400 degrees Farenheit). Even with the assumption of more advanced metallurgy technology, that is just too much of a stretch given that Blast Furnace technology which was the standard until the 19th century maxed out at around 1500 degrees Centigrade. Yes I know that Rashek could have somehow intuited the knowledge of these metals while holding the power and could have made himself a secret stockpile, but even if he did, he wouldn't be able to work said metal after losing the power, and it notes how he was running out of time with the power trying to accomplish the things he wanted to on a grand scale, so I just can't see him taking the time to design some special bracers of unknown and frankly impossible metal during the short time he was frantically trying to save the world. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

2. The "real" bands were broken apart to get the Atium. I won't go into this one too much as it has already been brought up earlier in the thread, but yeah. It notes in Well of Ascension that the bracers were found and the Atium was sold. I suppose you could argue that they didn't necessarily break up the bands to sell, but even that makes no sense. The sheer amount of Atium that was in those bands would be completely idiotic to try to sell all at once. Remember this is when the entire economy of the Empire was still Atium dependent and a single swallowable bead was worth a small fortune. Even if they were selling the Atium at a ludicrous discount, like 10% of its current value, no way in hell anyone had the money to buy the complete bracers. They would have had to melt it down and sell it to many investors. And before anyone says that the bracers weren't entirely composed of Atium, I know that, but that only adds to my argument, since the Atium was the part they were wanting to sell so they would have to break them apart to extract the Atium. And there had to be a substantial amount to hold the hundreds of years of Youth stored in them to keep Rashek young. This had to be a substantial metal mind. 

 

3. Why? Just why? What possible benefit was Rashek getting out of making these bands? He was already Godborn (or Twin-Awesome if you must), so they wouldn't give him any extra power. And we know he was not at all in favour of sharing his power, even with his most trusted servants. So what does he gain? Would they just be some sort of insane video game bonus treasure for beating the mid-boss if someone killed him? Even if for some reason he would want that (see #4 for that issue), how is anyone who killed him supposed to have the slightest idea what to do with them, or even that they are invested in the first place? Let's not forget that he actively suppressed all knowledge of Feruchemy completely, let alone Feruchemy involving metals that straight up did not exist in this world (see #1 for the impossibility of Nicrosil) outside of these bracers if he specially made them while holding the Power. He didn't leave an instruction manual anywhere, notably not mentioning them on the steel plates in the storage caches. And those were his final hail mary. Do you really think he would have left reference to some kind of ultimate weapon he'd made off of them? It just makes no sense.

 

4. Making something like this is totally outside his character. Let's begin with the fact that the only possible way he could have made these like this is while wielding the Power (see #1 for the impossibility of Nicrosil). Let's look at Rashek's character at this point. Here we have a brash, angry, racist youth fresh from committing murder who just took up all the powers of a God. Yes, his actions were attempted benevolence at first, trying to throw off Ruin's influence in the form of the Deepness, but looking at those actions, they were the actions of someone who wasn't really thinking that clearly or long-term. Mists are a problem? Move the planet closer to the sun. World's on fire? Fill the sky with ash and alter the magnetic poles to create a safe haven with the most ash. All life is freaking dying from lack of sunlight/ash-filled air? Alter the people and animals and put some Miracle-Gro microbes in the ash. All his actions are completely reactionary and impulsive. It's clear he is scrambling to do whatever he could with limited time and extremely limited knowledge. Making vast contingency plans was not in this guy's mindset. I get the idea that the web of contingencies he had set up were things he came up with much later, long after losing the Power once he had time to stop and think. Using a power he didn't remotely understand to make something out of materials the world had never known to perform a function no one had ever thought of by combining Feruchemy tricks involving two different metals (Aluminum which was insanely rare and hard to refine and thus unlikely to have much prominence and Nicrosil which just straight up didn't exist) in a complicated cheat code to reality meant to hack someone's sDNA just seems WAY too much for someone in the mindset Rashek was in at the time. If we was thinking clearly enough to make something like those bracers while holding the Power, I'm sorry, but he would have done a way better job with the planet as a whole in his attempts to save it. Again, it just makes no sense.

 

So there you have it. These bracers being what the Bands were eventually revealed to be just doesn't add up, even in the slightest. It doesn't make sense plot wise, it doesn't make sense character wise, and it doesn't make sense scientifically either in world or out. 

 

Now how the hell The Sovereign (Kelsier, obviously) figured out this Nicrosil trick is another matter entirely and involves many more questions I'd like to see answered, but I can pretty conclusively say that The Lord Ruler did not have these bracers.

[Mistform]

That is well reasoned. Also the Lord Ruler had thin bracelets on his upper arms that pierced his skin as his "bracers" which are nothing like the images in the temple.

[DeadFencer]

Crazy idea time. No one knows what happened to Rashek's bracers after they were sold by the crew, right? What if the Kandra bought them? They'd want to keep all the atium they could, after all. Furthermore, what if they kept them until after the Ascension? What if they still existed after Harmony ascended? What if the "replica" of the Bands of Mourning in the museum Wax met TenSoon in in Shadows of Self is actually the real bracers Rashek had? They wouldn't be useable since they were keyed to him, and they'd just sit there, full of unusable power. That would be hilarious.

[A Windspren he/him]

What if Kelsier got ahold of them, melted them into a spike, and used it to spike his Coginitive Shadown into a body? That could explain how he got Feruchemy.