Dakhor Sacrifices

[AliasSheep]

Bit of a late addition, I know, but I think my view on it hasn't been raised by anyone else.  As far as I see it, the sacrifice itself isn't a cost as much as it's a side-effect of what's actually going on.  What I suppose is actually going on is something that was also seen in Mistborn with Vin, when she uses the mists.  She uses so much investiture that it tears apart her body, destroying her physical aspect and leaving her a purely cognitive being.  I think something similar is happening here with the Dakhor monks.  The monk that is to be sacrificed allows the Dor to flow through them with a ridiculous amount of power, so much so that the investiture itself destroys their body in the process of transporting the other people, resulting in their apparent death.  It's very possible that these monks go on to become cognitive entities, though I think that with the state of Sel's Cognitive Realm, they might not last very long.

[Treamayne]

...it seems like it could be something more too, especially with the Dhakor since they don't seem to have as many locality issues.

 

I'm not sure this is the case. For one, we haven't seen Dakhor's use inside Fjorden's borders to compare with it's use in Arelon and Teo. Also, I think it's partly a difference between active and passive abilities. As I recall, Raoden didn't lose any speed or strength by being in Teo, so teh passive augmentations of being an Elantrian were unaffected by distance (Ch 62)

 

 

...the priest dove at Raoden, moving supernaturally quickly. Yet somehow Raoden reacted just as quickly, ...

 

It seems to me that many (if not most) of the abilities in the Dakhor monks are passive augmentations. Speed, strength, etc all seem unaffected by distance for either side. Also, note that Dilaf's resistance to Aons seemed unaffected by distance, but Dilaf was able to cancel the illusion at the wedding from a distance, but he touched the barrier in Teo to cancel it. We don't know if contact with the barrier was required, but we do know he was not required to touch the illusion in Arelon (which is closer to Fjorden).

 

We haven't seen very many active abilities in Dakhor, where most abilities in AonDor seem to be active (draw an Aon to channel the Dor for an effect). Even if the physical augmentations of Dakhor are partially active (due to the bone "symbols" drawn in flesh) we don't know how effective they are in Fjorden to compare to how we see them in Arelon.

 

As far as sacrifices, there seems to be a mismatch. Abilities such as Dilaf's resistance appear to be a permanent mutation based on a single set of sacrifices (50 in this case) to enable the change and make a permanent ability. However, teleportation seems to require a sacrifice for each use. Does this mean any Dakhor monk can teleport, given a willing sacrifice? Do only certain monks have the ability to guide a teleportation, but each use require a sacrifice? I think there just isn't enough information on Dakhor to know.

[Voidus]

I'm not sure this is the case. For one, we haven't seen Dakhor's use inside Fjorden's borders to compare with it's use in Arelon and Teo. Also, I think it's partly a difference between active and passive abilities. As I recall, Raoden didn't lose any speed or strength by being in Teo, so teh passive augmentations of being an Elantrian were unaffected by distance (Ch 62)

 

 

It seems to me that many (if not most) of the abilities in the Dakhor monks are passive augmentations. Speed, strength, etc all seem unaffected by distance for either side. Also, note that Dilaf's resistance to Aons seemed unaffected by distance, but Dilaf was able to cancel the illusion at the wedding from a distance, but he touched the barrier in Teo to cancel it. We don't know if contact with the barrier was required, but we do know he was not required to touch the illusion in Arelon (which is closer to Fjorden).

 

We haven't seen very many active abilities in Dakhor, where most abilities in AonDor seem to be active (draw an Aon to channel the Dor for an effect). Even if the physical augmentations of Dakhor are partially active (due to the bone "symbols" drawn in flesh) we don't know how effective they are in Fjorden to compare to how we see them in Arelon.

 

As far as sacrifices, there seems to be a mismatch. Abilities such as Dilaf's resistance appear to be a permanent mutation based on a single set of sacrifices (50 in this case) to enable the change and make a permanent ability. However, teleportation seems to require a sacrifice for each use. Does this mean any Dakhor monk can teleport, given a willing sacrifice? Do only certain monks have the ability to guide a teleportation, but each use require a sacrifice? I think there just isn't enough information on Dakhor to know.

I was comparing the teleportation, we know that Aonic teleportation is significantly weakened outside Arelon, Dhakor monks managed to accurately teleport exactly where they wanted. So either they knew exactly how weakened they were and could calculate how much they needed to overshoot or they're not influenced by locality as much as Elantrians are. (Or they're absolutely insanely powerful back in Fjorden)

[Yata]

I was comparing the teleportation, we know that Aonic teleportation is significantly weakened outside Arelon, Dhakor monks managed to accurately teleport exactly where they wanted. So either they knew exactly how weakened they were and could calculate how much they needed to overshoot or they're not influenced by locality as much as Elantrians are. (Or they're absolutely insanely powerful back in Fjorden)

Maybe the Sacrifices manage to create a permanent and stable link to the Dor. Once stable this link may fuel Monk's ability without risks for them. Of course during the unstable phase the one who drawn the Dor or just after is vaporizated by the power (probably beacuse an average people isn't attuned to the Dor, or it would insted Ascend and became a Shard).

[Pathfinder]

Well also of note is the numerical requirement. Although not enough data to be conclusive, it appears it takes one Dakhor sacrifice to teleport regardless the distance. It took one to go a distance easily walked just so Dilaf can prove a point, and it took just one to travel from one country to another that would take time by boat. So there does not seem to be a gradation between those two. You don't partially burn out your sacrifice if you go a short distance. Either way the person is toast. 

[Nashan’Elin]

Maybe the Sacrifices manage to create a permanent and stable link to the Dor. Once stable this link may fuel Monk's ability without risks for them. Of course during the unstable phase the one who drawn the Dor or just after is vaporizated by the power (probably beacuse an average people isn't attuned to the Dor, or it would insted Ascend and became a Shard).

This made me think that they are using the sacrifices as a "hack" to bypass the regional requirements of the Dor, since if the sacrifices are sent to the CR, they can access the storm of Dor there.

[Yata]

This made me think that they are using the sacrifices as a "hack" to bypass the regional requirements of the Dor, since if the sacrifices are sent to the CR, they can access the storm of Dor there.

I don't know... They need a sacrifice also in the center of their country to gift abilities or teleport.

And probably (but I may be wrong) if you go to Elantris Cognitive realm (well if you survive the Dor and any other danger) you are still not connected with that Elantris' Dor. The Dor in that place would be probably useless to you.

[Naurock]

On 4/22/2016 at 4:45 AM, Oudeis said:

 

Citation?

The Aons are just channeling the Dor. 

Elantris is shaped like a giant Aon RAO, which according to the book glossary means "Spirit, Essence". 

By making Elantris a giant Aon it amplified the magic they were able to use by channeling the Spirit or essence of the shard on the planet so all magic done near Elantris was stronger. [Like how Raoden's teleportation Aon didn't take them very far without being close to Elantris, despite him specifying length of travel when drawing the Aon Tia to leave Teod (Which I hold firm he could have actually not have to fight the Dilaf Gradget and just kept drawing the Aon continuously until he got closer and closer to home with Sarene)]

Raoden was able to still channel the Dor and create illusions for him and Galladon despite Elantris's Aon no longer working, but since it wasn't complete it no longer amplified the magic.

 

**Not from any WoB, just my own deductions.

[Mercy]

On 4/24/2016 at 8:30 AM, Voidus said:

Given that there were no modifiers whatsoever I'd find it a bit hard to believe that the base Aon Rao would have such a complex effect, including targetting specific people. Also once it wasn't working properly even if there was some weird lingering effect from before that was somehow unique to Aon Rao the rest of the Dor should flow back to everyone else, the whole problem was that the Dor had no release.

We don't know for certain that there are no modifiers. If I remember correctly, some of the modifiers that Raoden discusses in one scene are simple dots and lines. Has it been confirmed that every path and building in Elantris hasn't been placed in the location it is in as a modifier? (There might be WoB on that, I don't know.) It could even be as simple as the placement of the steps on the outside of the wall as a modifier, or something like that. Or perhaps the river flowing under Elantris has an effect as a modifier?

Also, has it been considered that the Dakhor magic system may work in a way that is more comparable with Hemalurgy? A [???]-based, rather than spike-based way of stealing other abilities? After all, Hemalurgy is the other magic system we've that requires death of one individual to grant abilities to another? I feel that there may be more to that similarity than it first seems.

[Alfa]

20 hours ago, Demoux said:

After all, Hemalurgy is the other magic system we've that requires death of one individual to grant abilities to another? I feel that there may be more to that similarity than it first seems.

Inclinded to disagree: Divine-Breath-Awakening also requires a death of a certain individual to grant abilities to another.

[Yata]

2 minutes ago, Alfa said:

Inclinded to disagree: Divine-Breath-Awakening also requires a death of a certain individual to grant abilities to another.

Giving away your Breath don't kill you. There are tons of Drabs on Nalthis.

[Alfa]

Just now, Yata said:

Giving away your Breath don't kill you. There are tons of Drabs on Nalthis.

Sorry, but I meant not normal, but Divine/Returned Breath.

[Mercy]

6 minutes ago, Alfa said:

Inclinded to disagree: Divine-Breath-Awakening also requires a death of a certain individual to grant abilities to another.

I didn't say that it was the ONLY other system. I just felt it was the most notable.

The Divine Breath is more  of a resurrection than killing another to gain their abilities. Taking the breath from another and making them into a drab is the 'stealing' part of the magic system. Neither one involves killing another for their abilities.

[Alfa]

33 minutes ago, Demoux said:

I didn't say that it was the ONLY other system. I just felt it was the most notable.

The Divine Breath is more  of a resurrection than killing another to gain their abilities. Taking the breath from another and making them into a drab is the 'stealing' part of the magic system. Neither one involves killing another for their abilities.

Misunderstood you, sorry.

[Brgst13]

Here's my thoughts on the subject.  This is all based on the idea that Investiture is a wavelength based phenomenon.  The sacrifice of 50 men allowed Dilaf to modify his bone structure in a way that modulates the wavelength of the Dor in such a way as to nullify Aons.  The  sacrifice of one man acts as the  modulator to allow teleportation.  Theoretically it might be possible to sacrifice enough men to create a bone structure to act as a modulator for teleportation, but it is not clear how many this would take.

This also could explain the effect of the Shaod.  The chosen Elantran would have his Spirit Web modified.  However, since the modulator is wrong (missing the chasm line), the change is incorrect.  This is very similar to burning an impure metal on Scadrial.