Why is Elendel Basin too cold for Southerners?

[DeadFencer]

So the southerners were never genetically altered at all. They just lived at the South Pole when Scadrial was too close to the sun. That makes sense, since the South Pole would be of a decent temperature during that time. Then Scadrial was moved back to its original orbit, and the South Pole was too cold for life. Again, that makes sense. The Southerners began to die of hypothermia, until the Soverign came and gave them brassminds to survive. The problem arises when the Southerners consider Elendel too cold. Didn't the South Pole during the Final Empire have average temperatures, like Elendel does now?

[ChickenChaser]

I need to spend some time looking for a source, but I believe the answer is that the Southerners lived on the equator. They adjusted to that climate, which was much hotter than the poles. Now that the over all temperature is at pre Lord Ruler temperatures, the Southerners have been having hardships of their own.

 

Why Harmony didn't change the genetic makeup of all the residents of Scadrial is a question that I never really asked.  

[WeiryWriter he/him]

You have to remember that the only reason that the only reason the Final Empire was at a "normal" temperature range was because of the ferromagnetic ash.  So weirdly enough it was actually colder there than it was at the Geographic North Pole.  That would imply that the South Pole also had a higher-than-is-usually-comfortable temperature.

[DeadFencer]

The Southerners couldn't have lived at the equator. We assume that, like Earth, Scadrial's equator is its hottest point. If humans could have survived there, then there would have been no need for Rashek to do what he did to cool the Final Empire. Its people could have just survived.

Regarding the Final Empire's temperature, do we have any evidence to suggest the Final Empire was colder than the South Pole? Even examples from Earth would be useful. Also the people of the final empire were genetically altered to better survive high temperatures, while the southerners were not. That implies the North should be warmer in spite of the ash.

Edited March 1, 2016 by SafestPear

[nervousnerd he/him]

I don't recall Rashek making them able to survive higher temperatures. He made them able to survive the ash and the poor sustenance from newly created plants.

When Vin entered the Well of Ascension she says "a magnificent sphere upon which life could exist only in a small little area at the poles." All people on Scadrial live at the poles and apparently the ocean boiled at the equator.

I assumed the south was tilted further from the sun and therefore received some protection from the temperatures without the need for ashmounts.

[Shard Slayer]

I assumed the south was tilted further from the sun and therefore received some protection from the temperatures without the need for ashmounts.

 

That doesn't really make sense, because we know that Scadrial has seasons, which means the axis of the plant is tilted similar to the earth's. While it would be technically possible for the axis to "wobble" so that the south pole is always tilted away from the sun it seems unlikely.

 

A possibility is that the Southerners lived closer to the pole than the northern scadrians. I say this because clearly the northerners didn't live directly at the pole because otherwise they would have mentioned the fact that for some of the year the sun never set (which I don't recall ever hearing).

 

 

You have to remember that the only reason that the only reason the Final Empire was at a "normal" temperature range was because of the ferromagnetic ash.  So weirdly enough it was actually colder there than it was at the Geographic North Pole.  That would imply that the South Pole also had a higher-than-is-usually-comfortable temperature.

 

Ferromagnetic ash? Is there something special about the ash?

Edited March 4, 2016 by Shard Slayer

[Pathfinder]

That doesn't really make sense, because we know that Scadrial has seasons, which means the axis of the plant is tilted similar to the earth's. While it would be technically possible for the axis to "wobble" so that the south pole is always tilted away from the sun it seems unlikely.

 

A possibility is that the Southerners lived closer to the pole than the northern scadrians. I say this because clearly the northerners didn't live directly at the pole because otherwise they would have mentioned the fact that for some of the year the sun never set (which I don't recall ever hearing).

 

 

 

 

Ferromagnetic ash? Is there something special about the ash?

Luthadel was at the magnetic north pole which is why the ferromagnetic ash blanketed there to protect it from the extra heat/radiation from the planet being closer to the sun. 

[natc]

Yeah, that. The actual pole would pretty much be searing hot at worse and not much better off at best. Probably hotter than Luthadel, considering the South's temperature tolerance.

The oceans are boiling too, so no dice. Magnetic South is out too because the ashy atmosphere would kill them.

Edited March 4, 2016 by natc

[Observer]

The way I understood it, the SoScadrians naturally adapted over the thousand+ years to be able to tolerate the insane temperatures that come with living too close to the sun without any ashmounts. When Harmony restored the world to normal temperature, they started freezing to death in what most would consider barely below average weather. Likely the only reason Harmony didn't move to help them was because somebody else was already down there doing just that, which removed his excuse to ignore his Shards and move to help them.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Observer

[DeadFencer]

The way I understood it, the SoScadrians naturally adapted over the thousand+ years to be able to tolerate the insane temperatures that come with living too close to the sun without any ashmounts. When Harmony restored the world to normal temperature, they started freezing to death in what most would consider barely below average weather. Likely the only reason Harmony didn't move to help them was because somebody else was already down there doing just that, which removed his excuse to ignore his Shards and move to help them.

You can't adapt over 1000 years. It's not long enough. Plus, since the changes to temperature were instant, if they could adapt to it and live, they could adapt back.

[nervousnerd he/him]

Plus I thought the Lord Ruler wanted to keep them genetically pure as a back up if his changes of the northerners did not work. Wouldn't he not want them to have to change and adapt much?

I had also assumed that Sazed used them as a basis of what to change in the survivors of the ash (to return them to normal from their skaa and nobel bloodlines) and therefore the southerners and northerners should have been genetically similar after the Final Ascension.

[Observer]

You may not be able to fully genetically adapt, but I'm fairly sure a person raised in, say, Russia, wouldn't find my coldest winters to be all that bad, by virtue of the local genetics and the way their body grew in their environment. The same principle should work in reverse, right?

 

*Does not understand genetics at all*

[natc]

Well, it might help a little, but dying from hypothermia on a mild spring day is kinda extreme.

Also, the Sovereign took ten years to show up, Harmony didn't really do anything.

[nervousnerd he/him]

Unless Harmony sent the Sovereign. But I agree 10 years is a long time to do nothing.

[Observer]

He might have been offering passive assistance, we can't rule that out. And if he didn't interfere at all, on the same principles as the Lord Ruler, it could be because with Preservation's power he knew they'd get help in time, and could see that they'd go on to thrive on their own. The opposite of what he did with the North, where he all but held their hand. With the South, he pretty much left them alone, knowing they'd actually do really well left to their own devices.

 

/speculation

[teknopathetic he/him]

I assumed that the Northern Scadrial folk had more innate investiture and therefor were more resistant to the cold. Northern Scadrial has Feruchemical blood as well as Lerasium bead blood mixing around the general population. Everyone has a bit of "breath" to a certain extent. Southern Scadrial almost completely lacks this enhancement. 

[DeadFencer]

Why would investiture allow for temperature resistance?

[Rasarr she/her]

Why would investiture allow for temperature resistance?

 

There is, I believe, a WoB somewhere that holding Investiture grants you a bit more health. It could be that both SoScals and NoScals are experiencing cold just the same, but NoScals, having more Inverstiture flowing around, aren't as susceptible to its effects (hypothermia, burns...), and so don't consider the cold that makes SoScals shiver to be all that severe.

[DeadFencer]

I'm pretty sure investiture only gives you more health if you naturally have Breath.

[natc]

Roshar is noticeably lacking in diseases due to constant stormlight exposure. An outbreak of anything as minor as a common cold already counts as a serious plague. Infusing yourself outright through surgebinding constantly heals you simply because the stormlight exists.

Minor health benefits, however, shouldn't make a difference in dying from hypothermia on a mild sunny day should it?

[Rasarr she/her]

Minor health benefits, however, shouldn't make a difference in dying from hypothermia on a mild sunny day should it?

 

A valid point. I'm wondering... I don't have the book on hand, but I remember that when reading, something Mr Suit said struck me as either showing he's a racist or foreshadowing something about the SoScals. Basically, he referred to them as "it" and started to say something about them not being human, at least not in the same way NoScals are. So |a|, Suit was being racist, |b|, something (perhaps connected to genetic engineering of Rashek's) makes SoScals different from NoScals, |c|, there's something very strange about SoScals, or |d|, I'm reading too much in a half-remembered snipped of a sentence.  

[DeadFencer]

Well I mean the Southerners are going to look different physically. The skaa were a group created by TLR, and were described as having an olive complexion. Intermarrying with nobles (who probably didn't look that different) and Terris (who made up much of the population, so most everyone has recent Terris ancestry) over the last 300 years kept distinct ethnic groups from developing in the North. Basically, Northern Scadrial has no history with different racial groups and different cultures. It makes senses that some tension could occur when southerners and northerners interact, especially if first contact was made by The Set.

To clarify, that isn't a good thing, just a possible outcome of Set-Southerner interactions.

Edited March 15, 2016 by SafestPear

[KnightGradient]

Well, the SoScadrians are almost constantly wearing those medallions right? What if they're all addicted to Feruchemical bronze, and don't have any homeostasis? I think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it's the only theory that makes sense to me. Kind of like how Spook was mostly senseless when he stopped flaring tin, maybe they're all Feruchemical bronze savants, and screwed up their natural heating.

[Pathfinder]

Well, the SoScadrians are almost constantly wearing those medallions right? What if they're all addicted to Feruchemical bronze, and don't have any homeostasis? I think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it's the only theory that makes sense to me. Kind of like how Spook was mostly senseless when he stopped flaring tin, maybe they're all Feruchemical bronze savants, and screwed up their natural heating.

Except that they didn't have medallions nor any metalborn when Kelsier first found them, and they were shivering and dying already by then.

[KnightGradient]

Well that's because there was that big freeze(can't remember the name), and it actually was cold there. So because they were so cold, the Sovereign hands them some handy dandy medallions, and they start tapping and storing bronze like crazy. In fact, I'd bet their "fire mothers" have the opposite effect, where their bodies are used to being cold, so if they stopped storing then they'd be super hot. Its just they relied on the medallions too much, and now are always cold. Think about what would happen if Wax were constantly storing say, 50% of his weight. If her were to stop it, his body wouldn't understand what was going on, and I'd bet my spheres his bones' would be weaker.