Why is Elendel Basin too cold for Southerners?

[Argel he/him]

Northern Scadrial has the Koloss, which do seem to face racism, so I would say Mr. Suit is a racist. Which given the assumption he is trying to breed a mistborn, makes sense (not a big leap to eugenics).

Edited March 18, 2016 by Argel

[Jazzy Kandra she/her]

Eh, Kelsier (or the memory he stored in the that metalmind) notes that the Ice Death wasn't all that cold... I think that the difference between the Northerners and the Southerners might have something to do with their sDNA. Differences in sDNA can have interesting effects on the physical realm, and differences in sDNA don't have to be genetic (they can be based on locations, or regional expectations/connection/whatever), so it would be a perfect explanation...maybe.

[natc]

Well that's because there was that big freeze(can't remember the name), and it actually was cold there. So because they were so cold, the Sovereign hands them some handy dandy medallions, and they start tapping and storing bronze like crazy. In fact, I'd bet their "fire mothers" have the opposite effect, where their bodies are used to being cold, so if they stopped storing then they'd be super hot. Its just they relied on the medallions too much, and now are always cold. Think about what would happen if Wax were constantly storing say, 50% of his weight. If her were to stop it, his body wouldn't understand what was going on, and I'd bet my spheres his bones' would be weaker.

I'd point out that, while not 50%, Wax has indeed been storing nonstop for years (aside from sleeping, when you can only store Wakefulness).

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

There does seem to be a 'nurture' aspect to how humans experience temperature. I went to Florida this past winter and noticed the people born and bred there were all wearing long sleeves and jackets. I'm a native New Yorker, and I was hot most of the time. I really doubt the extent of genetic drift between upper and lower US is that great, but being raised in different environments did effect how I felt the temperature.

Now take that, add in extreme heat and a thousand years of adaptation. Include the plants that are also adapted for extreme heat. Assuming the South Pole was between 100 and 200 degrees on average, I don't think it's that odd that the SoScads were freezing to death in 50 degree weather. Remember, it didn't happen immediately; it took ten years for them to get to the state Kell found them in, and it wasn't just the cold that was killing them.

It's not that strange to me. Not when Floridians find 50 degrees cold and New Yorkers go out without jackets. Alik survived in the North without the brass medallion; he just wasn't comfortable. Reading the book, it just seemed a more extreme version of what we see in real life. If you took a man from the Rainforest, and dropped him into a brisk New York day he'd probably have issues with the cold. Take someone who's idea of cold is our uncomfortably hot, put them in 50 degree weather...

Edited March 20, 2016 by Kingsdaughter613

[junior]

I'd say that Alik's condition was a bit more than "wasn't comfortable".  He was wearing so many blankets when Marasi found him that she assumed he wasn't wearing anything more than a loincloth underneath (turns out he was fully dressed).  It's also worth noting that one of the terms that the southerners use for the northerners is "Ice Demons".

 

Still, we don't see any southerners freeze to death over the course of the book.  So it's hard to tell just how much of the cold they're feeling is due to acclimation, and how much is due to physical differences from the northerners.

[Argel he/him]

Based on the memory from the coin it seems perfectly clear that what those from the Elendel Basin would consider mildly cold was deadly cold to the southerners.

 

He continued on into the town, passing foundations marked by old, burned-out fires. Somehow, he knew that the inhabitants here— as in other villages and towns he’d passed— had torn down their own walls for firewood, in desperation to survive. Bodies lay in the street, stripped. Their clothing had been taken for burning after they’d frozen in what most men would consider only mildly cold weather.

...

Inside, a mass of people huddled together for warmth, wrapped uselessly in blankets. No fires left. They’d burned even their masks. The traveler moved among them, drawing some concern, though most people stared with dull eyes. Awaiting death. He found the leaders near the center, the elders, aged and wearing cloth masks on their faces— the only things they had left.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

It still didn't happen immediately, or even in a short period of time. It took ten years. Yes, they are clearly adapted to extreme heat (I'm guessing 100 to 200 degrees Fahrenheit.) They clearly had some ability to withstand the cold though, or none would have survived. The ones who survived the longest are those with the strongest ability to maintain heat. If your body has grown used to 150 degree weather then fifty degrees is extraordinarily cold.

Malnutrition actually made the freezing more likely. Body fat is one of the best natural protections against the cold. Lack of knowledge comes into play; they were never cold so had no knowledge of how to deal with it.

By the time we get to the adventures era the SoScads are clearly able to survive, albeit briefly and with great discomfort, in weather most of us would consider frigid. At a guess they are beginning to adapt to colder temperatures.

[DeadFencer]

The problem is that evolution doesn't work that fast. Things can't adapt to temperatures (in a way that restoration to normal temperatures would kill them) in 1000 years. Even if Scadralians have magic super-fast evolution somehow, that would mean they could just adapt to the normal temperatures as quickly as they adapted to the high ones to survive those.

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. Maybe it's not the fact that the Southerners were used to warmth, but that they were at the South Pole. Rashek moved them all there, and it was warm enough to survive due to his moving the planet. When Sazed fixed the planet's orbit, he didn't move the Southerners away from the pole. So it wasn't that they were adapted to heat, it's that even normal humans would die if suddenly stuck in South Pole temperatures. I mean, they managed to survive in the North without brassminds. Maybe they don't like the north's temperature, but can survive it.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

If they froze immediately, yes. If they slowly died out over ten years then there is likely more than one cause. And, as an aside, micro evolution can happen pretty fast. Only macro evolution takes a while. Micro evolution happens all the time.

This is actually reminding me of something that happened a few years ago. A traveling circus had a bunch of parrots who somehow escaped. The parrots began building nests all over the Boro, mostly over electrical junctions where it was warmer. By the next year the had had children. Those children had fluffier feathers and duller colors. They actually managed here a while, but electrical workers kept destroying the nests. There still are a few, though they're mostly gone now. The last time I saw one it didn't look much like a parrot anymore. More like a pigeon with an oddly shaped beak.

Every generation of every species is different from the one before. Evolution can occur very quickly, especially when an event kills out a large group.

Not to mention, Kelsier isn't omniscient. Nor is Wax. It's entirely possible that one or the other was over simplifying. Whether the SoScads died of freezing, hunger, or because their immune systems could not cope with the change in weather, or all three doesn't really matter. They died from the cold, however that death occurred.

[Argel he/him]

I was taking for granted that that was the prevailing theory. It seems pretty obvious (edit: that it should be the prevailing theory) given what we're told in HoA:
 

Koloss cried out in pain from the burning. The heat was terrible, and around Sazed, trees began to pop and burst into flames. His touch on the twin powers kept him alive, he knew....

 

Yet, from these star charts, and from the patterns and movements of the other planets in the solar system they outlined, Sazed could determine exactly where the world was supposed to sit in orbit. He put the planet back into its old place— not pushing too hard, as the Lord Ruler once had, for he had a frame of reference by which to measure.

 

As for the adventures era, we know the mountains were worse than the climate change in SoScad since even the humans had to bundle up, which means it was colder than "only mildly cold weather". I'm not sure if that tells us anything though since the SoScads were able to drag out their eventual demise (before being saved) over a decade, which means they could survive the terrible cold more than minutes, probably more than hours, and maybe oven more than a day(?).

 

I'm inclined to agree about 300 years not being enough time for evolution, but I wouldn't completely rule it out it either. Consider that the ones most susceptible to the cold likely died first, leaving the ones most able to adapt still alive. That means that the next generation would have cold adaptability traits from both parents, which could speed things along.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Argel

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

It's the reverse of what happened originally; those best able to manage the heat survived when Rashek moved the planet. Now it's the opposite. Eventually they should reach something closer to baseline.

[Pathfinder]

Also regarding the speed of evolution. We are basing the speed on humans from Earth while the Scadrialians are based on humans from Yolen. We have no idea how their physiology might differ from us. Just because it walks and talks like a "human", doesn't make it a "human". 

[natc]

Speed of microevolution really only has to do with how diverse the population is and how early they pop out babies. The latter doesn't feel too different from us in the north, probably not in the south either. Not significantly anyway.

The former is unknown, but Rashek superheating the planet would've made for one impressive bottleneck.

[+tabitreader he/him]

It is said that the Lord ruler gave something to the Southerners to help in their survival. After the Final Ascension of Harmony, this unknown aid must no longer function for the Southerners thus creating the Ice Death from their perspective.

TLR sent them unknown aid to survive. Harmony sent Kelsier to help them survive.

Possibly Marsh as well at some point(s) I understand Marsh to be an equal to The Lord Ruler.

Tangent: These masks that the Southerners wear may be an old tradition handed down from when the South Pole magnetically collected extra unintended Ferromagnetic Ash and they needed to filter their breath.

[+tabitreader he/him]

Easy way to understand the Southerners is this... Imagine the Earth being shoved somewhat closer to our sun for 1000+ years, and no metallic ash to block the harsh sunlight from beating down on you.

Then, suddenly, the Earth is placed where it once was, and much further AWAY from the sun. You would feel quite...

Colder.