CancerPuppy Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 I'm pretty sure a spoiler alert isn't required here, and I'm not sure where to find any posts on this subject. I'm pretty new here. My main question has to do with the heralds at the beginning of the book. simply put, where did they go after every Desolation? What was the purpose of going to a place and presumably suffering endless torture only to come back, help civilization start over, then return back to said torture? Am I seeing this in the wrong way?
tobar14 he/him Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 It maybe was a deal of some sort. We aren't sure of who all was involved with the supposed deal. I would go into the stormlight archive and search for tags such as "heralds" "desolation" "damnation" "oathpact".
Observer Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 They go to a Shardworld called Braize (I think). So far as I can tell, the deal was that Odium could not attack Roshar as long as the Heralds were there. Humanity would rebuild, and then eventually one or more of the Heralds would break and the torture would stop. Odium would attack Roshar, the Heralds would defend, push back the Desolation, and go back to get tortured for as long as they could take it so humanity could recover. From what The Diagram seems to be saying, when it was only Taln being tortured there were none of the weaker Heralds to break early. Taln was made of tough stuff and held out for an absurd length of time before the next Desolation finally came, thousands of years later. I cannot remember how much of that is just speculation and how much is confirmed, but hopefully it helps.
CancerPuppy Posted February 23, 2016 Author Posted February 23, 2016 So they do go to Damnation. Scary scary.
StormWrath he/him Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 They go to a Shardworld called Braize (I think). So far as I can tell, the deal was that Odium could not attack Roshar as long as the Heralds were there. Humanity would rebuild, and then eventually one or more of the Heralds would break and the torture would stop. Odium would attack Roshar, the Heralds would defend, push back the Desolation, and go back to get tortured for as long as they could take it so humanity could recover. From what The Diagram seems to be saying, when it was only Taln being tortured there were none of the weaker Heralds to break early. Taln was made of tough stuff and held out for an absurd length of time before the next Desolation finally came, thousands of years later. I cannot remember how much of that is just speculation and how much is confirmed, but hopefully it helps. But this all seem to be pointless and an endless cycle,why can't they just defeat odium once and for all? So odium attacks>the heralds(along with humanity) fight back and stop the desolation>and they go to damnation until one of them breaks>and then there's another desolation. Humanity is nearly destroyed,they build up again only to be nearly destroyed again with most of their knowledge and technology gone,and this cycle continues forever!
Rasarr she/her Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) But this all seem to be pointless and an endless cycle,why can't they just defeat odium once and for all? So odium attacks>the heralds(along with humanity) fight back and stop the desolation>and they go to damnation until one of them breaks>and then there's another desolation. Humanity is nearly destroyed,they build up again only to be nearly destroyed again with most of their knowledge and technology gone,and this cycle continues forever! How do you propose they "defeat Odium once and for all"? Consider: it took someone with entire available Preservation to beat Ruin. Honor is shattered and Cultivation is implied to be very heavily invested in Roshar, while Odium is barely invested in Braize. Simply enough, there's no force in Greater Roshar matching Odium's power level. So what other options would they have? Invade Braize? For all we know, from Heralds' perspective Braize was Damnation that only they of all humans had access to, and they were tortured there, which implies that any invasion force would quickly find itself in similar predicament. What I'm curious about is why did they keep on going all together to Braize. Didn't they think at some point something along the lines of "hey, Taln is never the one to break, maybe this time the rest of us will stay while he holds the line"? Or the other way round, "X and Y break the most often, so let's leave them on Roshar this time and have them prepare the battlefield while the rest of us holds back Odium"? Edited February 25, 2016 by Rasarr
SetStndbySmn he/him Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 From what Honor says in the visions, I suspect Odium is a very, very, very careful antagonist. If I remember correctly, Honor suggests that making Odium believe there is at least a minuscule possibility of defeat is key into making him agree to some kind of contest of chosen champions. Rayse likely prefers to wait for a sure thing considering time is nothing to him, and to Roshar a stalemate is preferable to annihilation.
natc Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 How do you propose they "defeat Odium once and for all"? Consider: it took someone with entire available Preservation to beat Ruin. Honor is shattered and Cultivation is implied to be very heavily invested in Roshar, while Odium is barely invested in Braize. Simply enough, there's no force in Greater Roshar matching Odium's power level. So what other options would they have? Invade Braize? For all we know, from Heralds' perspective Braize was Damnation that only they of all humans had access to, and they were tortured there, which implies that any invasion force would quickly find itself in similar predicament. What I'm curious about is why did they keep on going all together to Braize. Didn't they think at some point something along the lines of "hey, Taln is never the one to break, maybe this time the rest of us will stay while he holds the line"? Or the other way round, "X and Y break the most often, so let's leave them on Roshar this time and have them prepare the battlefield while the rest of us holds back Odium"? Well, they probably weren't supposed to, Oathpact and all. And obviously leaving Taln to hold the fort by himself is precisely what they wound up doing. Didn't seem to end well, they're now all somewhat hypocritically insane.
Observer Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) The point of this cycle is that a.) Nobody on Roshar is actually capable of beating Odium one on one b.) Odium has proven on four occasions that he is quite capable and willing to kill every Shard in the Cosmere c.) Odium can be locked down to one planet that he can never quite destroy, and all it takes is a long cycle of people dying For as long as the Heralds kept the cycle going, Odium would be trapped on Roshar, unable to destroy it or anything else. Of course, now it's been a measly 4.5K years with the breaking of the Oathpact, and if I had to guess, now that the trick with Taln is over there is no longer any way to keep the cycle going. I assume the deal was for all 10 heralds to go up, and as long as they did the break/return cycle, Odium would stick to it. Last time they only sent Taln. This bought them a ton of time, but now I don't think they could go back to Braize and continue the cycle even if they wanted to, since they broke the terms of the agreement. This is now well and truly the end. Either Odium is defeated here, or he will finally be able to leave the Roshar system and move on to the Cosmere. Edited February 26, 2016 by Observer
Rasarr she/her Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 Observer and natc, you both have a valid point. And now I'm worried that several characters will end the first or the second story arc volunteering as new "Heralds" to hold back Odium... I know it's unlikely for everything to return to status quo by the end, but nevertheless, a worrying possibility.
StormWrath he/him Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 How do you propose they "defeat Odium once and for all"? Consider: it took someone with entire available Preservation to beat Ruin. Honor is shattered and Cultivation is I mplied to be very heavily invested in Roshar, while Odium is barely invested in Braize. Simply enough, there's no force in Greater Roshar matching Odium's power level. So what other options would they have? Invade Braize? For all we know, from Heralds' perspective Braize was Damnation that only they of all humans had access to, and they were tortured there, which implies that any invasion force would quickly find itself in similar predicament. This is supposedly the last desolation,and if humanity succeeds then they would defeat odium once and for all,also some fans seem to think that by the end of the books humanity will find a way to revive the almighty,you know,all that fuss about 'unite them' some people seem to think that means uniting various pieces of the almighty like syl (the way she talks about herself being a part of God) and other parts of him,though I don't know how that will be done so I will discard it for now. I got this bit from the stromlight archive wiki about this supposedly being the last desolation "The True Desolation, also called the Everstorm or the Night of Sorrows , is the upcoming and supposedly final confrontation between humankind and the forces of Odium. Most of what is known about this confrontation is in the recorded last words of those who have recently died."
IndigoAjah he/him Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 If WoT has taught me anything it is that we should treat all prophecies and prophecy like things with maximum suspicion 1
Observer Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 I always assumed it was called the Final Desolation because the Heralds aren't going back, meaning this one won't stop when things get dicey. Either Odium is defeated or Roshar is destroyed, no more Honor with his stalling and tricks.
DreamEternal Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 Technically, this one is not the Final Desolation, but the True Desolation. The Final Desolation was the one when the Heralds forsook the Oathpact, hoping they could stop the cicle. Apparently, they instead made the next Desolation worst.
Observer Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 They actually did stop the cycle, very effectively. And by that I mean after this next, last iteration, there won't be a world left to continue the cycle on.
Jondesu he/him Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 We don't even know if this really is the True Desolation, though. That's all in-world knowledge, which we've seen (multiple times) be incorrect both in this series and basically every other series Brandon has ever written. jW
Ari he/him Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 I'm pretty sure a spoiler alert isn't required here, and I'm not sure where to find any posts on this subject. I'm pretty new here. My main question has to do with the heralds at the beginning of the book. simply put, where did they go after every Desolation? What was the purpose of going to a place and presumably suffering endless torture only to come back, help civilization start over, then return back to said torture? Am I seeing this in the wrong way? FYI, on the Stormlight Archive forum, you're good to leave out spoiler tags for any Stormlight books that aren't new. Same for mistborn forums. New books will have their own sub-forums for you to post without spoiler tags, so long as you can compose a sufficiently ambiguous title. Eventually those topics get moved back into the main series forum once enough time has passed. Technically, this one is not the Final Desolation, but the True Desolation. The Final Desolation was the one when the Heralds forsook the Oathpact, hoping they could stop the cicle. Apparently, they instead made the next Desolation worst. I keep forgetting there's any difference between those two, lol.
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