Wayne Disapproval Thread (Potential Wayne-related spoilers)

[aeromancer]

@ Chaos + Meg : Actually, I was using "Freedom of Speech" in a different sense. I wasn't justifying my topic using it, I was agreeing that (as this is a public forum with great Admins) people have a right to post their mind on my thread.

 

This actually can be linked back to my discussion of Wayne. Is Wayne doing anything wrong? [Legally, yes but we're going to ignore that.] Wayne doesn't think he's doing something wrong. He's just trying to help people. Like what kacman07 said:

 

I think half of what he does can be justified as genuinely doing what he thinks is best for Wax.

At the same time though, the results of his actions are not what everyone him wants, or really no one. Wayne's closest friend is Wax. This has been discussed. His second closest friend is Ranette (maybe?), who he essentially stalks for fifteen years. He absolutely cares about Ranette, he's just very shortsighted. That's probably why he hates Steris so much because Steris is crazy prepared for anything. The fight between them can be summed up as "Who's better at taking care of Wax?"

 

So yes, just because you have the ability to do something doesn't mean you should do it.

 

EDIT: Insanity is never an excuse. Mistborn Era 2 has psychologists who can alter your emotions. They can help. Not that I'm saying Wayne is insane, because I don't want to get even more flak then I already did. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by aeromancer

[Meg]

That's probably why he hates Steris so much because Steris is crazy prepared for anything. The fight between them can be summed up as "Who's better at taking care of Wax?"

That runs actually along my thoughts: I'd guess Wax is jealous. We don't know how he behaved around Lessie. But then, she had a 100% contrary character than Steris has.

I can imagine that Wayne just wants to have Wax only for himself and doesn't want to share him with others, at least not with somebody who'll get very close to Wax. That feeling of Wayne's might be subconscious but I'm rather sure it is part of his behavior.

As about insanity: That seems to be a sore spot for me but I have to repeat myself: Steris is not insane, she is ill, not insane. Also Wayne isn't insane. Both of them have issues that might be cured with the applying therapy (so a soother or rioter wouldn't be such IMHO).

If anyone is insane that might apply to TLR or Uncle Edwarn/Mr. Suit.

At least my comprehension of the word "insane" is connoted very negatively.

[aeromancer]

Hum. When I say insane I am not referring to characters who do not behave regularly in relation to people around them. (Every character in every fantasy book, ever.) I suppose I not am referring to any major psychological disorder either, but if I was, I'd take a guess at ... fixation on Wax as a "wild west sheriff" and willing to do anything to return Wax to that role.

 

Insane means characters who severely do not behave regularly in relation to people around them. Rand al'Thor during parts of WoT, for example. Zane, while Ruin does claim he's sane, is definitely is insane as well. Normal people do not attempt to kill their psuedo-girlfriend after they get dumped. At least Wayne didn't do that. See? I can say positive things about him!

Edited March 8, 2016 by aeromancer

[Kaymyth]

ASteris is not insane, she is ill, not insane. Also Wayne isn't insane. Both of them have issues that might be cured with the applying therapy

 

OK, I've been staying out of this for obvious reasons.  Y'all know I adore Wayne, I don't need to recap that here.

 

But the bolded statement about Steris I *do* take exception to.  She's almost certainly high-functioning autistic.  This is not - I repeat, not - an illness.  She's doesn't need "fixing," her brain is just flat-out wired differently.

 

I'm sorry, but we have a lot of autistic kids on the forums.  (And I have close family members who are on the spectrum.)  A lot of them identify strongly with Steris, and the implication that there's something wrong with them that needs curing could be taken as hurtful.

[Voidus]

OK, I've been staying out of this for obvious reasons.  Y'all know I adore Wayne, I don't need to recap that here.

 

But the bolded statement about Steris I *do* take exception to.  She's almost certainly high-functioning autistic.  This is not - I repeat, not - an illness.  She's doesn't need "fixing," her brain is just flat-out wired differently.

 

I'm sorry, but we have a lot of autistic kids on the forums.  (And I have close family members who are on the spectrum.)  A lot of them identify strongly with Steris, and the implication that there's something wrong with them that needs curing could be taken as hurtful.

Seconded, personally I find being called insane far less negative, we're all insane on some level or another. Though you could use neuro-atypical I suppose if insanity has too many negative connotations.

Anyway for me it is very clear that Steris is different from other characters, but this difference is not a bad thing, not an illness to be cured or a problem to be solved, it's just a part of who she is. An awesome part of an even more awesome whole.

[Asperity]

OK, I've been staying out of this for obvious reasons.  Y'all know I adore Wayne, I don't need to recap that here.

 

But the bolded statement about Steris I *do* take exception to.  She's almost certainly high-functioning autistic.  This is not - I repeat, not - an illness.  She's doesn't need "fixing," her brain is just flat-out wired differently.

 

I'm sorry, but we have a lot of autistic kids on the forums.  (And I have close family members who are on the spectrum.)  A lot of them identify strongly with Steris, and the implication that there's something wrong with them that needs curing could be taken as hurtful.

Autism Spectrum Disorder is classified as a mental illness and listed in the DSM-V, regardless of personal opinion toward the matter. Maybe the other person meant "ill" literally" or "ill" in this context. Who knows.

[Kaymyth]

Autism Spectrum Disorder is classified as a mental illness and listed in the DSM-V, regardless of personal opinion toward the matter. Maybe the other person meant "ill" literally" or "ill" in this context. Who knows.

 

With respect, the DSM has classified a lot of things as mental illnesses in the past that were later revised out.  I happen to find this particular classification just as wrong and offensive as previous versions' classification of homosexuality as the same.

 

Ask any autistic person on the forums whether they think there's something wrong with them, if they need to be "cured".  The answer will be no.  It's part and parcel of who they are.

[aeromancer]

For starters, Kaymyth, thank you very much for your timely, insightful comments. I thank you for not participating so far.

I would like to point out two things:

1) Steris has not been confirmed to have autism. I am (somewhat) knowledgeable on the subject, and it seems to be that she is obsessive-compulsive.

2) About 'ill' as a word choice ... to quote the ancient Mokian proverb "Don't make assumptions". Like Kythis said, 'ill' could mean something different in this context.

 

I will say that 'applying therapy' on Steris is not good. Yes, Steris is not 'normal' but that's not 'wrong.' Wayne ... I wouldn't recommend him for therapy either. For the therapists' sake. #harleenquinzel

[Asperity]

With respect, the DSM has classified a lot of things as mental illnesses in the past that were later revised out.  I happen to find this particular classification just as wrong and offensive as previous versions' classification of homosexuality as the same.

 

Ask any autistic person on the forums whether they think there's something wrong with them, if they need to be "cured".  The answer will be no.  It's part and parcel of who they are.

I think it fits much better as a spectrum--the way it is now--than how it was in the past.

 

There is a world of difference between high-functioning autism and low-functioning autism. I have diagnosed ASD myself, among other things. Obviously high-functioning (mostly involving anxiety and social retardation, in my own words). It doesn't personally bother me.

 

Meanwhile, low-functioning autists cannot even function as normal human beings. Don't you think low-functioning autists who cannot perform basic tasks such as cleaning themselves up after using a restroom, or even simple verbal communication, should be cured? I know someone whose fifteen-year-old son is severely autistic and she has never been able to hold a conversation with her own child. I'm pretty sure she wishes he was cured of the disorder. I'm certain any parent would be if it were that severe.

[Kaymyth]

I think it fits much better as a spectrum--the way it is now--than how it was in the past.

 

There is a world of difference between high-functioning autism and low-functioning autism. I have diagnosed ASD myself, among other things. Obviously high-functioning (mostly involving anxiety and social retardation, in my own words). It doesn't personally bother me.

 

Meanwhile, low-functioning autists cannot even function as normal human beings. Don't you think low-functioning autists who cannot perform basic tasks such as cleaning themselves up after using a restroom, or even simple verbal communication, should be cured? I know someone whose fifteen-year-old son is severely autistic and she has never been able to hold a conversation with her own child. I'm pretty sure she wishes he was cured of the disorder. I'm certain any parent would be if it were that severe.

 

I think it's extraordinarily problematic that such a wide range of function is classified under the same thing.  That's the problem with the spectrum - it's just too broad.  For the folks on the low-functioning end of the scale - yeah, there needs to be further research to figure out how to help them connect and communicate.

 

But all of the high-functioning people I know view a cure as something that would wipe out a basic function of their personality.  It's a touchy subject, but I think in this particular case, Steris qualifies as being on the high-functioning end of the spectrum.

[ParadoxicalZen]

I have no feelings towards Wayne either way although he does confuse me at times

[Meg]

At first I honestly apologize to everybody who might feel bad because of my wording. I didn't want to make anybody sad. On the contrary my insistence comes from my view (that might be screwd up a bit?) on some terms.

I also apologizes for the impression I gave apparently, that somebody with such issues schould be forced to receive therapy. I didn*t want to imply that they must change. On the contrary. But there also might be ones around who decide for therapy on their own record.

Also it might be a lingual problem as well as one of my own perception.

   

 

Kaymyth, on 24 Feb 2016 - 12:04 AM, said:

    OK, I've been staying out of this for obvious reasons.  Y'all know I adore Wayne, I don't need to recap that here.

    But the bolded statement about Steris I *do* take exception to.  She's almost certainly high-functioning autistic.  This is not - I repeat, not - an illness.  She's doesn't need "fixing," her brain is just flat-out wired differently.

    I'm sorry, but we have a lot of autistic kids on the forums.  (And I have close family members who are on the spectrum.)  A lot of them identify strongly with Steris, and the implication that there's something wrong with them that needs curing could be taken as hurtful.

Sorry, that quote got damaged.

 

As I tried to explain, my insistence is caused by my feeling about some words. Honestly, if somebody calls me ill, that comes right for me: I am ill, so why shouldn't that be said? On the other hand "Insanity" has a bad connotion for me, it's devaluing and makes me think of former mad houses. Thus I for myself prefer "ill" over "insane".

 

Though reading those posts I get the impression that in the English language its otherwise around?

 

On Autism being an illness or not I'd add that it is listed in ICD-10 also, which seems to be standard while the DSM-V is rarely used.

 

Autism Spectrum Disorder is classified as a mental illness and listed in the DSM-V, regardless of personal opinion toward the matter. Maybe the other person meant "ill" literally" or "ill" in this context. Who knows.

 

"The other person"? Is that me? Anyway that differentiation you're making eludes me. I'd appreciate an explanation.

 

 

I'm sorry for once again straying off topic. Probably a mod might split that thread?

[mattig89ch]

There are parts of Wayne I don't like.  That whole trading thing he does. he's stealing from folks, and he just gets away with it.

 

His willingness to screw people over, who don't deserve it.  That boatman for instance.  He needed to get someplace in a hurry, sure, but did he really need to stiff that man out of the money he would normally charge?  For all we know, that man went hungry, because he couldn't afford to get food that night because of wayne.

 

His willingness to drop a water tower on his friends head, just to stop a wedding.

 

But then, there are other points about wayne that I do like.  His willingness to stand up to bad guys.  His casual attitude, helps to diffuse some situations.  Though purposfully pissing off people who he's not fighting is another gripe I have about him.  And, as a character, he does help to keep things in perspective.  While the book was talking about people with godlike powers, he was thinking about the odd way we humans value things.  He definitely helped to keep the book grounded overall.

[Asperity]

At first I honestly apologize to everybody who might feel bad because of my wording. I didn't want to make anybody sad. On the contrary my insistence comes from my view (that might be screwd up a bit?) on some terms.

I also apologizes for the impression I gave apparently, that somebody with such issues schould be forced to receive therapy. I didn*t want to imply that they must change. On the contrary. But there also might be ones around who decide for therapy on their own record.

Also it might be a lingual problem as well as one of my own perception.

   

As I tried to explain, my insistence is caused by my feeling about some words. Honestly, if somebody calls me ill, that comes right for me: I am ill, so why shouldn't that be said? On the other hand "Insanity" has a bad connotion for me, it's devaluing and makes me think of former mad houses. Thus I for myself prefer "ill" over "insane".

 

Though reading those posts I get the impression that in the English language its otherwise around?

 

On Autism being an illness or not I'd add that it is listed in ICD-10 also, which seems to be standard while the DSM-V is rarely used.

 

 

"The other person"? Is that me? Anyway that differentiation you're making eludes me. I'd appreciate an explanation.

 

 

I'm sorry for once again straying off topic. Probably a mod might split that thread?

Well in the context of "mentally ill" there are two main definitions:

 

Mentally ill is the description of a mental ILLness, mental disorder, etc. etc.

or

Mentally ill as in "haha X person is mentally ILL, nanner nanner boo boo" in a derogatory, insulting manner.

 

I figure you meant the former definition, and I don't personally care if you meant the latter (so don't mistake this as me being upset or something, don't worry); I was only musing about it.

[Firehead13]

While I mostly enjoy Wayne, I have two large problems with him.

 

First - He delivers that check on the first of each month to the daughter of the man he killed when he was 18. Okay, we get it, you feel bad, but this horribly masochistic behavior does nobody any good. You don't enjoy it, she enjoys making you hate yourself but doesn't want to see you, and it just furthers Wayne's horrible depression.

 

Second, and perhaps more excusable - His treatment of Steris. As far as Wayne can tell, Steris bought Wax and Wax is incredibly upset about it. So what does he do? Try and get Steris to release Wax from bondage (see: marriage) by being so horrible that getting Wax isn't worth it if Wayne comes with. I say this is more excusable because Wax doesn't ever try to stop it. He tentatively says she isn't *that* bad (implying that she is bad, just not to the degree Wayne thinks) a few times, but doesn't put his foot down until the end of Bands of Mourning. Wayne isn't privy to the moments of emotion and cooperation that Wax and Steris have and bond over, so as far as he knows he still has Wax's approval.

 

That said, I SWEAR BY ALL SIXTEEN SHARDS OF ADONALSIUM, HE BETTER TREAT Steris RIGHT IN THE FUTURE. SHE HAS THE WAX SEAL OF APPROVAL NOW SO BACK OFF.

[CarolaDavar]

I still think Wayne has a decent amount of depth and more to him than we know. I'm certain Sanderson could write a book with him as the main character and I would enjoy it.

 

I did find that on my second read of Stormlight 1 & 2, Rock annoyed the crap out of me.  In my opinion, he is a one dimensional character, who serverd a purpose in the beginning, but not really anymore.

 

An interesting fact about Rock. . . Brandon Sanderson said himself that his favorite member of Bridge Four is Rock, and he loves to write him the way he is

 

You people have to realize something. Wayne didnt crash the wedding because he's a jerk, Wayne crashed the wedding because his best friend was about to marry a crazy woman. Im sure at least half of you would have done the same thing.

 

The fact that he is wrong about Steris doesnt change anything, from his perspective his actions make perfect sense.

 

I am the founder of The Church of Wayne so I am sure my opinion about him is obvious.

While I mostly enjoy Wayne, I have two large problems with him.

 

First - He delivers that check on the first of each month to the daughter of the man he killed when he was 18. Okay, we get it, you feel bad, but this horribly masochistic behavior does nobody any good. You don't enjoy it, she enjoys making you hate yourself but doesn't want to see you, and it just furthers Wayne's horrible depression.

 

Second, and perhaps more excusable - His treatment of Steris. As far as Wayne can tell, Steris bought Wax and Wax is incredibly upset about it. So what does he do? Try and get Steris to release Wax from bondage (see: marriage) by being so horrible that getting Wax isn't worth it if Wayne comes with. I say this is more excusable because Wax doesn't ever try to stop it. He tentatively says she isn't *that* bad (implying that she is bad, just not to the degree Wayne thinks) a few times, but doesn't put his foot down until the end of Bands of Mourning. Wayne isn't privy to the moments of emotion and cooperation that Wax and Steris have and bond over, so as far as he knows he still has Wax's approval.

 

That said, I SWEAR BY ALL SIXTEEN SHARDS OF ADONALSIUM, HE BETTER TREAT Steris RIGHT IN THE FUTURE. SHE HAS THE WAX SEAL OF APPROVAL NOW SO BACK OFF.

See here.

I think Wayne ruined it for a reason. Try to think about it this way:

Wayne (I think) knows that Wax probably didn't love Steris that much (NOt only that, but he'd still been getting over his last girl)

HE ruined their wedding, because he believed that his best friend might not be happy with it.

THen, later on, when Wax went ot propose to Steris (4 real this time)

Wayne tells Marasi to stay out of the way for a moment, to give his friends some space.

Wax truely loves Steris by the end of the book, and it seems like Wayne notices it. He seemed pretty ready the next time for Steris and Wac to get married.

Anyway... I like to read about Wayne. I, if i met him in person, do not believe that i still would like him. On this note, I am on kind of equal grounds between loving Wayne and disliking him.

[aeromancer]

The road to fun places is paved with good intentions. I do not deny that Wayne thought he was doing the right thing, but he definitely was not doing the "right thing". If you want, though, we can have a discussion on whether or nor it is.

 

In a sense, that does make Wayne worse. The first step to overcoming a problem is admitting you have it. Wayne is never going to actually mature, because he believes that what he does is the right thing.

 

Now, sometimes it is. Sometimes Wayne does do the right thing.

 

However sometimes what he believes is the right thing involves crashing water towers, bribing his way to an orphan he made who hates him, scaring bargemen to get a free ride, theft of all manner petty or otherwise, and stalking a woman who doesn't want him for fifteen years.

[Ati]

So, I actually signed on expecting to create a new thread somewhat similar to this one as I finally figured out what bothered me about Wayne in this book.

First, let me say that in my opinion, Wayne is being done a disservice by some of the posts here, so I'll offer a brief defense. Many have picked on WaterTowerGate as a reason to dislike Wayne. I happen to disagree. Pretend, just for a moment, that Steris hadn't grown as a character since Alloy. Then pretend you're Wayne. Do you really not do everything you can to stop that wedding? Wax had clearly been smitten with Marasi, and clearly would have been miserable with Steris. Now, we've gotten to know Steris better, but Wayne, hasn't (because the dislike is mutual.) So I would offer that first as perspective.

Secondly, the phrase "paved with good intentions" was used here. And I think many who are upset about the water tower might agree with it. Generally though, we use that phrase to mean one of two things, "you didn't think it through, dummy" or "my value system disagrees with yours." Here's the thing, Wayne did think it through (mostly). He's decided that it is acceptable to break the law to save a friend. If you disagree with that value judgment, fine, but at least recognize that it could be a valid conclusion. (The means used, of course, are something else entirely .)

Anyway, on to the Wayne bashing. I loved Wayne in the first two books. I viewed him as a character of intelligence and depth who was delicate enough that he felt he had to hide it beneath a "Wayne-like" exterior. He has always had some of the other characters convinced that the exterior is the real Wayne. In this book, I felt like he convinced Brandon as well. The scene that I think bothered me the most was the one where they infiltrated the set's repair site of the airship. Wayne actually took the time to manipulate an unconscious body and joke around while his life and those of three of the people closest to him were on the line. I don't recall him doing anything similar in the previous books and it's the first time I can recall that I can't even sympathize with his actions, nevermind agree with them.

[Dihatimus]

Wayne is that friend who makes the inappropriate joke at the dinner table with your family. You just want him to shut up sometimes. But then, when you are moving out of your apartment, he is the only friend who showed up to help.

 

He uses humor as a self defense. He doesn't like who he is, so he tries to make people laugh, thinking that maybe that will make them like him. To which I can relate. Also, so many times in my life there were moments that if you didn't laugh about something you would cry. If you pretend to be something long enough, eventually you just are...right?

[aeromancer]

He uses humor as a self defense. He doesn't like who he is, so he tries to make people laugh, thinking that maybe that will make them like him. To which I can relate. Also, so many times in my life there were moments that if you didn't laugh about something you would cry. If you pretend to be something long enough, eventually you just are...right?

I would disagree with that. Excellent, I got kaymyth to defend Steris, and now I'm defending Wayne.

Wayne is not depressed, or constantly being funny to cover up for his insecurities. Wayne is ... well, Wayne. Personality wise, he doesn't really take things seriously, and wants to help people, but unfortunately has no idea how to. Or, his version of helping them is radically different from what they want.

You're making him sound like a good version of the Joker

[Kaymyth]

I would disagree with that. Excellent, I got kaymyth to defend Steris, and now I'm defending Wayne.

Wayne is not depressed, or constantly being funny to cover up for his insecurities. Wayne is ... well, Wayne. Personality wise, he doesn't really take things seriously, and wants to help people, but unfortunately has no idea how to. Or, his version of helping them is radically different from what they want.

You're making him sound like a good version of the Joker

 

Hey, now.  I legitimately adore Steris.  I just <3 Wayne more.

[statesOfSevly]

I think his chapter early in the book could've been a bit shorter without us missing out on anything.

And him getting over Ranette felt a bit out of place to me. There was no real build-up and it just kinda happened. And it didn't effect the main plot either.

 

Definitely agree. I actually like Wayne as a character, but for the first half of Bands of Mourning I felt that his scenes didn't really add anything to the narrative while Wax and Steris were the ones carrying the story (Marasi was also rather dull in the first half IMO). He had an entire chapter in which we got to see how clever he was with the boatman, how we was finally moving on from Ranette, etc. whatever, but nothing there added to the story as a whole. As Plastic Misting mentioned it definitely could and should have been shorter, but I'd take it even further: you could remove that entire chapter and not only would you not really lose much, but the pacing and momentum of the first half would actually be improved.

 

Both Wayne and Marasi improved hugely in the second half, though. The Wayne and Wax feels at the end! So good! I would say that I liked Wayne overall, but that he was a slow starter here.

 

Many have picked on WaterTowerGate as a reason to dislike Wayne. I happen to disagree.

 

Yep yep, I'm with you on this one. Wayne's behaviour here is pretty similar that many of us either would or have cheered for in romcoms - he's doing everything he can to stop his friend from making the biggest mistake of his life. Sure, we know from the end of Shadows of Self that Steris is deeper than Wayne thinks, but even at the beginning of Bands, Wax is still marrying her more out of duty than anything else. Indeed, the marriages at the end and beginning are foils—one is all about public spectacle so that everyone knows that Lord Ladrian and Lady Harms have fulfilled their familial obligations, while the other is quite and intimate and all about Wax and Steris themselves. It's a darn good thing that Wayne stopped the nonsense in the first one.

Edited March 7, 2016 by statesOfSevly

[ljósmóður]

I've pretty much come a full circle in my feelings about Wayne. I came to Mistborn quite late - only in the last couple of years or so. I had more or less just finished re-reading the trilogy before Alloy of Law was published so I pretty much read it back to back with them. In that context, going from the major drama and emotion of the trilogy (and the prologue of AoL was hardly a bundle of laughs was it?), Wayne felt like genuine light relief with his silly goofiness and genius with accents/disguise. Also, he represented the middle ground between grieving, stern Wax and gauche Marasi so completed the triumvirate (well, Marasi isn't male but you know what I mean!). He worked very well in a book that was only a little longer than a novella.

 

However, I have loved Steris since I first read AoL (probably because I relate to her - I put things on lists that I've already done just to have something to tick off! - and, I can relate to her feelings of social anxiety too). So, his cruelty to her (especially after the incident at the top of ZoBell tower in SoS where he was simply horrible to her) made me feel considerably less sympathetic towards him because, even if he was looking out for Wax's interests, he was out of line with the way he behaved there.

 

In addition, I HATE farce ... seriously, I cannot, will not and never will watch Mr Bean, Naked Gun or a gurning Jim Carey ... and Wayne from the end of SoS through to the second half of BoM skated pretty close to one dimensional, farcial behaviour for me. The three main incidents cited here for evidence of Wayne's nagative characteristics irked me too - visiting his victims daughter, the scenes leading up to interaction with Ranette [although I did actually like the scene where he spoke with her - I just wish we could have got there without the fol-de-rol with the barge man and the meat pies!] and the water tower.

 

However, the scenes at the end of BoM when he was grieving for Wax and when he took on Telsin redeemed him somewhat. Plus, once he was finally called on his behaviour by Wax, he did facilitate the privacy Wax and Steris needed for their real wedding which felt like some character development to me. I liked how he and Marasi sparked off each too.

 

So, me - not likely to be joining the church of Wayne anytime soon but willing to hope we see a (slightly - I'm not expecting a complete character overhaul) more mature version of him in the final book.

[Mr. Staccato]

Wayne is not depressed, or constantly being funny to cover up for his insecurities. Wayne is ... well, Wayne. Personality wise, he doesn't really take things seriously, and wants to help people, but unfortunately has no idea how to. Or, his version of helping them is radically different from what they want.

 

Okay, I just want to say this. (Please don't downvote me until you finish reading through the entire post.)

 

Wayne is a splendid character, and I agree with @Mrs.K.Stormblessed that having access to his POV is a saving grace for when Wax and Marasi get too serious in their investigations during any of the books. He's funny, smart, charming, and likeable, but I think @aeromancer has a point. Wayne is completely funny, and he gets out of a lot of stuff simply because of being such an outrageous individual, but the water tower incident was a serious eyebrow raiser for me.

 

Yes, I've heard about his intentions, and just like so many of you I found his undying loyalty to Wax endearing, never mind the fact that up until this point in the book, Wayne was still mistaken about Steris. Now, what I do in fact take issue here is the frickin' water tower. Alright, first up, did he have to do that? Was there any other way for him to disturb the wedding without going out there and causing a miniature flood? Like, come on, that's Wayne! He probably had more than one card up his sleeve on how to cause a ruckus in the proceedings. Yes, he drained the tower, he beat up the thugs who he ordered to cause the sabotage, but the thing that really got to me was the very idea that he had to drop one on the cathedral.

 

Because argue all you want but there is nothing fundamentally good about trying to drop a big hunk of metal down on the heads of people you care about. You just don't do things like that, even if you expect no one to get hurt in the act. And anyway, even if you did expect nobody to get hurt from the process, the very fact that you would make use of such a thought as justification to carry on with a plan like this is isn't something you'd normally congratulate people about.

 

Wayne will be Wayne. Yes I realize that he's not a malicious person, and yes I also understand that he has issues and problems, as much as to rival that of even Wax'es, but Wayne's grip on right and wrong is so... tenuous. It's right there though, and he knows better than to kill or harm people when the alternative is still possible, but see, it's the little things that bug me here.

 

It's not even that he insulted Steris for me, or that she was the reason why he dropped down the tower  - after all, I completely sympathize with his intent of trying to secure a good life for Wax, even if his perceptions on the matter are flawed and incompatible with the real score. He's blind, he's rash, but that's okay, because he did it all for Wax.

 

I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that I like Wayne too, but I want people to see that the reasons he have for doing the things he does doesn't always agree with me. He's funny, but sometimes he's just so painfully misguided, and reasons alone shouldn't be enough justification for him to be going around doing half the things he's doing, even if he thinks what he's doing is right.

 

But seriously, no hate on him. This is just a serious examination of his character and I for one love his flaws completely. I just hope that Wayne will someday take serious strides to improve upon his immaturity, although I can't help get this feeling that he'll always remain the scoundrel that he is now.

[Kaymyth]

Okay, I just want to say this. (Please don't downvote me until you finish reading through the entire post.)

 

Wayne is a splendid character, and I agree with @Mrs.K.Stormblessed that having access to his POV is a saving grace for when Wax and Marasi get too serious in their investigations during any of the books. He's funny, smart, charming, and likeable, but I think @aeromancer has a point. Wayne is completely funny, and he gets out of a lot of stuff simply because of being such an outrageous individual, but the water tower incident was a serious eyebrow raiser for me.

 

Yes, I've heard about his intentions, and just like so many of you I found his undying loyalty to Wax endearing, never mind the fact that up until this point in the book, Wayne was still mistaken about Steris. Now, what I do in fact take issue here is the frickin' water tower. Alright, first up, did he have to do that? Was there any other way for him to disturb the wedding without going out there and causing a miniature flood? Like, come on, that's Wayne! He probably had more than one card up his sleeve on how to cause a ruckus in the proceedings. Yes, he drained the tower, he beat up the thugs who he ordered to cause the sabotage, but the thing that really got to me was the very idea that he had to drop one on the cathedral.

 

Because argue all you want but there is nothing fundamentally good about trying to drop a big hunk of metal down on the heads of people you care about. You just don't do things like that, even if you expect no one to get hurt in the act. And anyway, even if you did expect nobody to get hurt from the process, the very fact that you would make use of such a thought as justification to carry on with a plan like this is isn't something you'd normally congratulate people about.

 

Wayne will be Wayne. Yes I realize that he's not a malicious person, and yes I also understand that he has issues and problems, as much as to rival that of even Wax'es, but Wayne's grip on right and wrong is so... tenuous. It's right there though, and he knows better than to kill or harm people when the alternative is still possible, but see, it's the little things that bug me here.

 

It's not even that he insulted Steris for me, or that she was the reason why he dropped down the tower  - after all, I completely sympathize with his intent of trying to secure a good life for Wax, even if his perceptions on the matter are flawed and incompatible with the real score. He's blind, he's rash, but that's okay, because he did it all for Wax.

 

I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that I like Wayne too, but I want people to see that the reasons he have for doing the things he does doesn't always agree with me. He's funny, but sometimes he's just so painfully misguided, and reasons alone shouldn't be enough justification for him to be going around doing half the things he's doing, even if he thinks what he's doing is right.

 

But seriously, no hate on him. This is just a serious examination of his character and I for one love his flaws completely. I just hope that Wayne will someday take serious strides to improve upon his immaturity, although I can't help get this feeling that he'll always remain the scoundrel that he is now.

 

Point of detail:  he didn't actually realize that his boys were going to knock over the tower.  He figured that when he told them to flood it, they'd just loosen the pipes in the church or something.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Kaymyth