king of nowhere Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 Some characters in the cosmere are almost immortal. A gold compounder, a radiant full of stormlight, an elantrian with good knowledge of the healing aons. But hemalurgy only requires a metal spike through the heart, and it can steal whatever regenerative power one has. It has been speculated that with some powers you could heal the damage done to your spiritweb by a spike, but it does not matter if you lose the power in the first place. One limitation of hemalurgy preventing every arrow or bullet that strikes true to become a spike is that the person doing the stabbing must have the intention of creating a spike. But that just means that whoever knows something about bind points can make a spike. as far as we've seen, it doesn't require that much practice: inquisitors barely knew what they were doing, they only knew to plant spike through the victim's heart to point X in the receiver, and it worked for them. So, does the above mean that someone with knowledge that hemalurgy exist could easily kill the lord ruler, or even hoid, by stabbing them in the heart with the right metal with the intention of making a spike (a knife made of multiple metals would be good, cause there would be more chances that at least one of those metal is the right one). Since those characters feel safe in their powers and never bother to dodge attacks, it should definitely work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy he/him Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 Some characters in the cosmere are almost immortal. A gold compounder, a radiant full of stormlight, an elantrian with good knowledge of the healing aons. But hemalurgy only requires a metal spike through the heart, and it can steal whatever regenerative power one has. It has been speculated that with some powers you could heal the damage done to your spiritweb by a spike, but it does not matter if you lose the power in the first place. One limitation of hemalurgy preventing every arrow or bullet that strikes true to become a spike is that the person doing the stabbing must have the intention of creating a spike. But that just means that whoever knows something about bind points can make a spike. as far as we've seen, it doesn't require that much practice: inquisitors barely knew what they were doing, they only knew to plant spike through the victim's heart to point X in the receiver, and it worked for them. So, does the above mean that someone with knowledge that hemalurgy exist could easily kill the lord ruler, or even hoid, by stabbing them in the heart with the right metal with the intention of making a spike (a knife made of multiple metals would be good, cause there would be more chances that at least one of those metal is the right one). Since those characters feel safe in their powers and never bother to dodge attacks, it should definitely work. One potential issue with this is the problem of getting close enough in the first place; they may be near invincible, but it doesn't particularly mean they're idiots either. Also, you'd have to put in and remove the spike, as a spike lodged within them would simply allow them to keep their powers. If they heal around the spike, it could lead to some problems removing it. Also, it would be relatively difficult to land a blow directly through the heart, especially if the person were actively moving, which is likely in the case that such an obvious threat is present BoM spoilers: This could also be blocked by tapping stored identity/investiture that would allow you utilize said healing power in the case of compounders like TLR This does pose an interesting question though. It seems like a relatively effective way to kill a powerful enemy, with the added bonus of assuming his powers in reduced form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 The thing is, there are several bindpoints in the heart. It's not like "just stab through the heart". It's still "stab it through this specific point in the heart". It's almost impossible to do in fight with normal person (unless you're Steelrunner or something). To accomplish this in fight againts such overpowered characters? Impossible. On the hard end of impossible.Now, let's try a different approach. There are different bindpoints which you can stab through to steal. So let's just spam with lots and lots of spikes. I'm thinking about fragmentation grenades or something. Throw one with intent of making hemalurgic spikes and pray some of them hit in the correct bindpoints.If you succeeded, we're halfway there. Because we have to remove the spike.And we don't know which one is the correct one. So we have to remove all of them. Ironpulling won't work. Let's use supermagnets. Maybe there's an Aon for magnetism?Or a fabrial which can act as supermagnet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy he/him Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) The thing is, there are several bindpoints in the heart. It's not like "just stab through the heart". It's still "stab it through this specific point in the heart". It's almost impossible to do in fight with normal person (unless you're Steelrunner or something). To accomplish this in fight againts such overpowered characters? Impossible. On the hard end of impossible. Now, let's try a different approach. There are different bindpoints which you can stab through to steal. So let's just spam with lots and lots of spikes. I'm thinking about fragmentation grenades or something. Throw one with intent of making hemalurgic spikes and pray some of them hit in the correct bindpoints. If you succeeded, we're halfway there. Because we have to remove the spike. And we don't know which one is the correct one. So we have to remove all of them. Ironpulling won't work. Let's use supermagnets. Maybe there's an Aon for magnetism? Or a fabrial which can act as supermagnet? Would the hemarulgic spike be able to be able to be attracted by the various magic systems? I can't find anything that specifically says it, but I was under the impression that a piece of metal within the body wouldn't be easily affected by the various forms of investitureETA: it would be interesting to see this attempted by a coin shot and a iron compounder, as the coinshot could launch hundreds of toothpick-like metal slivers while the compounder yanks them out Edit 2: replaced "Steel" with iron, apparently my brain was dead Edited February 17, 2016 by Bugsy6912 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted February 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 I don't think the bind points can be THAT specific. The inquisitors got along by hammering a spike with a mallet through the heart of a person. A persson who is tied hands and feet, but can still squirm. How accurate can you really be when planting a spike like that? So there should be a passable chance of hitting the right point. As for those characters not letting themselves be hit, I was thinking of the scene where the lord ruler ignores people stabbing him when he confronts kelsier, or hoid staring down jasnah. And I thought, "wow, if that skaa soldier that stabbed the lord ruler had actually known about hemalurgy, it would have been an easy kill". Of course, if they realize their opponent is trying to do that, they won't stand still. in that case, a regular person won't have a chance, but if hoid and the lord ruler were trying to kill each other, that's the way they would try to use. And that's actually a good reason for keeping some metalminds with no investiture. at least enough to heal back your feruchemical gold power and then heal with your other metalminds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 I don't think the bind points can be THAT specific. The inquisitors got along by hammering a spike with a mallet through the heart of a person. A persson who is tied hands and feet, but can still squirm. How accurate can you really be when planting a spike like that? So there should be a passable chance of hitting the right point. The Terrisman tried to struggle. It seems Inquisitors had experience with tying people. Before Marsh started hammering, he put the spike in the correct spot. Arguments can be made both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path he/him Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 ETA: it would be interesting to see this attempted by a coin shot and a steel compounder, as the coinshot could launch hundreds of toothpick-like metal slivers while the compounder yanks them out Steel compounders are coinshots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Much more, you have to know "what kind of Spike is needed to remove the specific powers".. With the Metallic Arts is quite easy, but we don't know how use it with other Magic Systems. But a Skilled Hemalurgist may kill quite anyone with a not-lethal damage. Remember that while performing Hemalurgy, the Physical Damage isn't "the Killing blow" (The organ arrange itself to avoid damage) but the soul ripping effect. One Hemalurgist with enough precision and skill, may kill someone creating a Strenght Spike from the Victim's foot (for example ). If the victim hasn't any kind of Soul-Healing he will probably die. Edited February 17, 2016 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 The Terrisman tried to struggle. It seems Inquisitors had experience with tying people. Before Marsh started hammering, he put the spike in the correct spot. Arguments can be made both ways. I think you can miss the exact point by one or two centimeters, because that's the accuracy I think one can reasonably get with the mallet thing. maybe with more precision you can achieve more refined effects. that's difficult to hit, but doable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path he/him Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Since all inquisitors have allo-vision - which I imagine is like looking at people as if they're in an MRI - they can probably be pretty accurate hitting something involved with blood circulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 If you have an Atium spike it might work, that's the only one we know of that would steal other forms of Investiture, wouldn't work on TLR or probably Hoid who have more than one way of healing but against say a Radiant it could work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadFencer Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 To handle removing the spike, maybe make the spike an explosive that would detonate after taking the power. That would destroy the spike, destroying its power as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 To handle removing the spike, maybe make the spike an explosive that would detonate after taking the power. That would destroy the spike, destroying its power as well. Destroying a spike splinters the power it doesn't get rid of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Destroying a spike splinters the power it doesn't get rid of it. But reforging the spike would destroy the charge. Use lots and lots of napalm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 You'd have to change the composition a lot by alloying it or causing chemical reactions to do it. Charged Pathian earrings were all reforged from Inquisitor spikes and, while too weak to grant real power, still function perfectly after 300+ years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 You'd have to change the composition a lot by alloying it or causing chemical reactions to do it. Charged Pathian earrings were all reforged from Inquisitor spikes and, while too weak to grant real power, still function perfectly after 300+ years. Do we have it confirmed they were "reforged"? As in "using high temperature to melt and then let them solidify in a different shape"? I'm pretty sure it destroys the charge. I thought that Harmony just used a mechanical process like carefully breaking them into smaller pieces. It's not outside of Shardic abilities to accomplish something like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy he/him Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Do we have it confirmed they were "reforged"? As in "using high temperature to melt and then let them solidify in a different shape"? I'm pretty sure it destroys the charge. I thought that Harmony just used a mechanical process like carefully breaking them into smaller pieces. It's not outside of Shardic abilities to accomplish something like this. Investiture can't be destroyed, so unless the actual process of melting the spikes somehow initiates a transfer of investiture, I don't see why it'd cause the charge to be lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Well, alloying the metal does make it go poof to someplace else. But if the metal is still viable I don't see why the charge would leave. Even metalminds ought to function while still molten or TLR would be surprisingly easy to kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Well, alloying the metal does make it go poof to someplace else. But if the metal is still viable I don't see why the charge would leave. Even metalminds ought to function while still molten or TLR would be surprisingly easy to kill. He's survived fire before which almost certainly would've melted goldminds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 So yeah, they should work while melted. Even if he started storing heat to use himself as a heatsink there would've been some initial melting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 I got a chance to meet Brandon in Houston this past week at a signing. I asked him: If a metalmind is melted down and changes shape, does it still retain its power? His answer: Yes, only by mixing it with other metals would the power be completely lost. Also if any pieces of the metalmind are lost, then some of the power will be lost (as it would be in the missing pieces). I tried googling this question for awhile and never found a suitable answer, so I thought I would share it now that I know the answer! source Okay, I remembered a thread about alloying metalminds and got it mixed up. Sorry. That answers my question about Pushing/Pulling molten metal, I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts