Lounge

[Hobbit]

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

I'd love to go, but I don't do boats.

Seasickness?  Seasickness put me off of cold pizza for a while...

[Mandamon he/him]

The motion of the cruise ship is not bad at all.  There were a couple people in our group that had to take Dramamine or maybe lay down for an hour, but I didn't hear any reports of actual seasickness.  The thing is so big is swallows most waves.

[Robinski he/him]

36 minutes ago, Ernei said:

Have you ever had similar problem? Any advice?

Okay, similar problem - no.

Advice, I think this is an easy one personally. Set yourself up to write for 15 minutes about each of the three ideas and see which one you get into and starts to excite you the most. If none of them do, you might need to generate some ideas, but at worst, it's only cost you 45 minutes of writing time.

SImples! 

[kais]

On October 1, 2016 at 6:29 AM, Hobbit said:

Seasickness?  Seasickness put me off of cold pizza for a while...

Yup. Doesn't matter how big the boat. I have motion sickness on pretty much any moving thing. 

[kais]

Goldenhand is out!!!!! My copy just came in the mail. SO EXCITED!!

Any other Garth Nix fans here? No? Maybe I'll just slink back into my corner with the one YA series I truly adore....

[Hobbit]

22 minutes ago, kaisa said:

Goldenhand is out!!!!!

Ooo!  I didn't know he had another one coming out.  I've only read the first in the series, but it's one of my brother's favorites.  Now I have a good Christmas present idea...  It's never too early to start planning.

Bummer about the motion sickness, too.

[kais]

Reading Goldenhand right now by Garth Nix, and there is this tiny little one line mention of f/f relationships among the Clayr. There are no words for how thrilled I am for this itty bitty call out to sexual diversity. This further cements my love of Nix and his Old Kingdom books.

[Asmodemon he/him]

On 3-10-2016 at 2:47 AM, Ernei said:

my problem is that I kind of have three different ideas and each seems equally compelling, but not very compelling. Have you ever had similar problem? Any advice?  

Maybe if each separate idea isn't compelling enough to be its own novel you could try combining all three ideas into one story

[kais]

@Asmodemon lives! Yay! Welcome back!

[Asmodemon he/him]

On 12-10-2016 at 1:15 AM, kaisa said:

@Asmodemon lives! Yay! Welcome back!

Yeah, I'm still alive. Still travelling too. Right now I'm in Japan, with two more months in Australia upcoming. Good times. NaNoWriMo is also coming up, I'm going to try juggling travelling with writing 50,000 words in a month. Should be interesting

[neongrey]

There's probably some D&D or Pathfinder novel that has that.

[Hobbit]

On October 17, 2016 at 4:42 PM, Ernei said:

can anybody name a high fantasy story told from the point of view of dwarven mage/scholar?

I haven't personally read one, though like neongrey said, there's probably one out there.  That said, based on what I've read in the past, I'd be much more interested in a humans/dwarves/elves story from a dwarf perspective than a human or elf one.

I just wanted to let everyone know that I'm going to be at the World Fantasy Convention next week.  (It's in the same city where my parents live, so I get to visit home and not pay for a hotel.)  I'm not sure of the protocol, but are we allowed to meet each other in person?  If anyone will be at the convention and is interesting in meeting up, let me know.

ETA: Ernei posted while I was writing this!

No, I don't think it would be offensive at all.  There are lots of mixed race people in the world!  You're right about not having seen this much in movies, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do it.  Last night I attended a panel discussion about racism on the nearby campus, and there was a student who talked at length about her experience growing up as half black, half white - in her case her parents divorced, and she ended up living primarily with her white family sometimes and her black family at other times.  It was really cool.

I will say that genetically, it would be rare (but not impossible) for someone who is half black to have blue eyes.  

Edited October 21, 2016 by Hobbit

[kais]

4 hours ago, Ernei said:

if I put into my story a character who is half-black and half-white, would it be offensive?

To truly answer this question, you'd need to ask it to a mixed race person, or several mixed-race people. I can tell you, from a USA standpoint, where this question falls. There are, generally, three 'camps' on writing stuff like this:

1) You're a writer. You make your living off of seeing other viewpoints and writing about them. Write whatever you want

2) Stay in your lane. You do not have the right to appropriate someone else's background or heritage to make money and you do your best when you tell your stories, not those of others

3) Include diversity in minor characters, stay in your lane for major characters unless you are willing to do the correct research to properly portray a main character out of your lane

White male writers tend to (certainly not all the time!) fall into camp 1, which infuriates writers of color and other minority writers to no end. Camp one is something you can get away with if you are Tom Clancy or JK Rowling. If you're a big enough seller it doesn't matter who you piss off (and wow, did JK Rowling piss people off with her last HP thing).

There is a strong vocal minority advocating for camp 2, however in my opinion camp two is not viable. It could easily be taken to extremes. Does it mean I can only write nonbinary characters because I was not socialized male? This camp has grown from a desire to make diverse characters reflect real diverse experiences, and not what white people consider the diverse experience. I get it, it just has some obvious flaws. 

Camp 3 is what most writers, I would hope, aspire to. Which means for you, if this mixed-race character is a major character, you need to do some research on what that means socially, economically, etc. You can get 'sensitivity readers' for this type of stuff, where you write outside your lane and want to make sure what you wrote is not offensive. So you write your book and then you pay a sensitivity reader who belongs to the minority group you are writing about, to read your book and tell you what needs changed. Sensitivity readers is a debatable topic as well, since one could make the argument that if you can't see what you wrote is offensive, you shouldn't be writing it. 

 

Basically no, having a mixed race character is not in and of itself offensive (I think, again, this isn't my lane so you'd best ask someone of mixed heritage), but if you portray that character in a way that is not reflective of that heritage, you have offended. And YA book Twitter is not a group of people you want to piss off, let me tell you. 

Actually, with that in mind, are you on Twitter? I have a list of people you might want to follow to get a feel for the YA author groups of marginalized authors, and what they fight against every day.

Edited October 21, 2016 by kaisa

[Asmodemon he/him]

To refer back to Kaisa’s post about the three camps, I lean towards the first camp that as a writer you should write what you want to write, but with the caveat that you do it well. That means you do the necessary research and the further something is from your own experiences, the more research you have to do. So I am more a mix between camps one and three, but paramount to me is that you as a writer write what you’re passionate about.

 

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1. If I put a non-white character just in the background (like Nene is), is it offensive?

2. If I give them a broader role, but don't comment on their family or history, is it offensive?

 

Like your previous question, no, in and of itself, these situations are not offensive. But they can be, if you do it poorly, if the characters you write are not fleshed out correctly, but are instead stereotypes or strawmen. Without an actual piece of writing it’s impossible to judge whether that’s the case or not.

You seem very concerned with giving offense to people, and that is commendable, but don’t let it debilitate your writing. No matter what you do someone could be offended. See Kaisa’s second camp for example. You write Nene and someone from that camp will be offended that you dared write a character from a different social group / gender / orientation / culture. Vice versa, you write only characters that are like you because you fear to give offense and the readers who are looking for diversity in characters will hate your book, because there is none in it.

You want to write Nene as a side-character? Do it, and see if your readers think it works in the story or not. You want to write Nene in a more expansive role? Same thing, do it, and see if your readers think it works or not.  

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3. The names. "Nene" I actually borrowed from a real life black girl I met (we were this young then). The character in itself isn't directly inspired by her, I went for it because this was the only example from my own experience that I had.

This feels like taking ‘write what you know’ a little too far. Are your white characters also named after people you personally know or have met?

 

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However, if the person's family is living in the USA for a longer while, do they use names of their native culture or English? If I give a non-white person English name, is it offensive?

There is no simple answer here, how people name their children differs from person to person.

Some people really want to hold on to the culture of the land of their birth or of their ancestors, and will name their children accordingly. Others may fear persecution and will give their children (and maybe themselves too) a name that fits with their new country, so as to blend in. Others may be so happy to be in a new country that they will name their children in honor of the country that took them in and gave them a home.

Maybe family tradition is such that names are passed on, from father to son, mother to daughter, and name their children accordingly. Maybe they heard a name or a word they found beautiful and used that as a name for their child. All are valid scenarios, so do what fits with the characters you have in mind.

[kais]

5 hours ago, Ernei said:

I would like to ask a few more questions, just to clarify things

Unfortunately, none of the people currently on RE are of biracial descent of the kind you describe (unless they're lurking, or have never just presented as such, which would make sense since this is a pretty white board) and therefore are not really qualified to answer your question. You need to pose these questions to the group in question. A large part of what perpetuates the cycle of marginalization is speaking for a group one is not a part of. We can attempt to make educated guesses based upon our understanding of US racial interactions, but our responses would be coming from a place of privilege, and not really the voices that need to be heard here. Now, if you wanted to talk about including characters on a gender or sexuality spectrum, those voices are at least somewhat represented on this board, and you could score some definitive answers.

With that in mind, here are some Twitter voices to check out. You don't need a Twitter account to see their feeds, you can simply click on the links.

This author is a biracial YA author and one of the leading voices in defense of marginalized writers. She's often in the thick of things, so watching her feed can be a good way to get a feel for YA book politics in the USA

This author  has her debut book coming out very soon to much critical acclaim (and a HUGE acquisition bidding war!), and deals directly with the Black Lives Matter movement and black marginalization in the USA

This author as sort of a lens to view @neongrey's responses through. 

As a warning for all of this though - if you (as in, the collective 'you' of this board') find @neongrey's responses sometimes caustic and over the top, YA book Twitter will be hard to swallow at first. Marginalized writers, especially those in the YA community, are really tired of being told to play nice and having to constantly explain things. These ladies (for the most part, the authors of this community are female, with a smattering of trans, nonbinary, or gender fluid) take no prisoners. Go down the Twitter rabbit hole with an open mind and a willingness to learn and be uncomfortable, and you will do just fine.  

 

 

[neongrey]

One of the problems with approach 1) that I'd like to point out is this:

Even with the best of intentions and appropriate research on the part of an author, works produced by non-marginalized authors will pretty much always receive far more exposure than works by marginalized authors. This is pretty verifiable, statistics-wise; it occurs pretty broadly, not just in fiction writing. You don't have to screw anything up, but there's still a very good chance you're talking over someone discussing the same things.

Now, fiction is less of a zero-sum game than, say, acting roles (where cisgender actors taking roles for transgender characters is demonstrably taking work away from transgender actors) but it's important to realize to what extent it's possible to crowd people out. Doing something well doesn't inherently mean it's harmless. This isn't to say don't, but I do feel like 'is this something I, personally, should be writing about' is a question that should generally be considered. 

This is far from a blanket 'option 2 is the correct one' but realize generally that even outside of diversity there's subjects we'd all inherently say that we shouldn't write about. I shouldn't write a story where the physics of rocketry is critical to the story, because I know nothing about rocket science. (it wouldn't be as big of a deal because nobody's really hurt by badly-written rocket science, but you get the gist). There really are occasions where sometimes 'this is the story I want to see, but I shouldn't be the one to write it' really is the best option.

e: actually, I'm going to expand on the rocket science example. Nobody's really hurt by badly-written rocket science, but imagine if, say, I wrote a story about rocket science, and people used that story as a sign of my expertise in rocket science, and they sought out my opinions on rocket science, before they even thought to talk to an actual rocket scientist. This sort of thing actually happens a lot with issues involving marginalized people; men considered experts on women's issues over women, white people experts on black issues over black people, etc, etc, etc. (this even happens outside marginalization, too; pop science authors taken as authorities over scientists in the field, etc, but yeah)

Edited October 23, 2016 by neongrey

[Hobbit]

Hello everyone!

I just got back from World Fantasy Convention, and it was great.  The most dramatic moment for me was when I walked up to one of my new friends, hoping to meet the person he was talking to, and it was Marco Palmieri!  He was like, "Hello, I'm Marco.  I'm an editor at Tor."  My thought was, "Oh, crap."  My friend was in the middle of pitching to him, so I said something funny and then promptly ran away.

I came away from the convention with a few new ideas and lots of new aspiring-writer friends.  I even talked to an agent (though not about my work - I have nothing ready to sell) and confirmed that agents are definitely real people, and not scary.  All in all, it was just really encouraging to see lots of other people taking writing, particularly fantasy/sci-fi writing, seriously.  It validated my desire to take writing seriously, too.

I'm about to start to catch up on the submissions from last week, so get ready for some awkwardly-late feedback.

[Robinski he/him]

Welcome back, @Hobbit! Sounds awesome. One year I'll get to a con, I'm just such a chicken.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Robinski

[Mandamon he/him]

13 hours ago, Hobbit said:

I just got back from World Fantasy Convention, and it was great

@Hobbit Glad you got to meet an agent.  Did you get any cards for when you are ready to query? 

A lot of new authors I know went as well.  Wish I could have gone this year, but not with all the other cons I went to... maybe next year.

[Hobbit]

7 hours ago, Robinski said:

I'm just such a chicken.

Aww you took down your silly link!  Also it was only scary for the first two hours, before I awkwardly went up to another lonely-looking person and started making friends.  After that it was great.

2 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Did you get any cards for when you are ready to query?

No... I was too chicken.  

ETA: I forgot to mention that I'm doing NaNoWriMo, so I might be lighter on my feedback this month.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Hobbit

[kais]

A good read for writing women in fantasy.

[kais]

I don't really want to poke a sleeping bear here but maybe a nudge? There is a growing trend of not critiquing when you sub. I've been watching it now for a few weeks. That kind of makes this whole set up not work. You're then relying on the 'regulars' who aren't submitting that week to fill in the gaps. I get that we don't all have time to do every sub every week but if you sub you really should do at least one crit that week. If you don't have time to crit, then maybe wait to sub until you do have time. We'll be here, promise. 

[Hobbit]

13 hours ago, kaisa said:

There is a growing trend of not critiquing when you sub.

This is definitely a bummer.  It's counterintuitive to me, since when I submit, I need to critique other people's work to keep me in an editing mindset, rather than an "Aaaaahhhhh my baby story is out there in the world, so scared!!!" mindset.

Also, maybe just another bit of encouragement for everyone - critiques don't have to be long.  Even just three or four comments are really helpful.

[Robinski he/him]

Here, here, and well said. Obviously the whole thing works on trust at the moment. We could start doing the math, but nobody want's to turn this into a prescriptive and formally monitored thing, I'm sure. Fair's fair, do unto others, etc., etc.

[Robinski he/him]

Believe it or not, I think the guidance actually says something about critiquing one or two things before submitting, or maybe Silk said that to me on initial briefing 'all' those years ago.

I do agree that people should not feel obliged to critique if they are not submitting. I would say that is purely optional, unless one wanted to bank some goodwill for the future, or just loved reading stuff and spouting off about it (Arrgh, just let my m/o slip...).

I'm not sure it's a big issue, but the way it doesn't get to not be a big issue is by us talking about it every so often. These things have a way of working out, and if they don't, we can always break out the Grammar Stick's big brother, the Very Large and Heavy Quarterstaff of Critiquing Compliance.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Robinski