theory Voidbringers, the Knights Radiant, and Gavilar

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

So I have been re-reading WoR and have noticed something perhaps significant. So it is time for my first theory.

 

After a few Sanderson novels, I have come to expect initial impressions and suspicions to be reversed. Who/whatever you think is the antagonist at the beginning never ends up as such. For example (beware of spoilers):

   -Treledees

   -Denth and Vasher

   -Preservation

   -The Lord Ruler (I would still say he was evil but he was not what you thought)

I could probably go on. The point has been made, however, thus I won't. There is probably a similar reversal down the pipe in the Stormlight Archive.

 

Starting with odium. I think it is fairly clear that odium is evil. Storms, he is the shard of hatred! Also, Hoid has a very poor opinion of Rayse, which probably does count for something.

 

However, there is something else of note down this vein in the Stormlight Archive, linked to all these secret societies.

 

We know that Gavilar was assassinated because he approached the Parshendi wishing to bring back the voidbringers.

We also know that Taravangian loosely aligned with Gavilar.

We also know that both of these people at least started out wishing to save the world, but it looks like what they actually tried to do was quite destructive.

 

We also know that Ameram was interested in bringing back the voidbringers.

 

And the ghostbloods are embroiled in all of this but we have no idea what they are looking for.

 

So lots of people are interested in either bringing back the voidbringers or averting their return.

 

I also want to highlight the "cover synopsis" of the Way of Kings:

 

I long for the days before the Last Desolation.

The age before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us. A time when there was still magic in the world and honor in the hearts of men.

The world became ours, and we lost it. Nothing, it appears, is more challenging to the souls of men than victory itself.

Or was that victory an illusion all along? Did our enemies realize that the harder they fought, the stronger we resisted? Perhaps they saw that the heat and the hammer only make for a better grade of sword. But ignore the steel long enough, and it will eventually rust away.

There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar's mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes.

The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again. These four people are key.

One of them may redeem us.

And one of them will destroy us.

 

From the above information, I feel we can conclude two things:

 

1. The presence of radiants is associated with the desolations. Correctly or incorrectly, many presume a causal relationship between the return of voidbringers and the return of radiants. It would be interesting if this assumption was in fact correct.

 

2. The fact that both voidbringers and radiants have disappeared is not necessarily a good thing.

 

So in light of this, Gavilar's efforts, one way or another, may have actually be saving Roshar.

He tells Dalinar to "find the most important words a man can say" which probably means the radiant oaths.

He tries to return the voidbringers, but this may actually be an attempt to restore the radiants as well.

However, Gavilar foretells the approach of the everstorm to Taravangian. It even seems that all of his efforts are to prepare for the everstorm. So why would he be trying to bring back voidbringers? Wouldn't he realize that the voidbringers would cause the everstorm? It is possible he did not. Or perhaps the everstorm would have come eventually even if Eshonai hadn't caused it.

 

Then there is also the motives of the society Ameram is a member of. We don't know very much about those other than that Ameram wants the voidbringers to return. I am inclined to believe Ameram's motives are not good, based on what he did to Kaladin.

 

And there is the ghostbloods, which contains worldhoppers. The presence of worldhoppers implies that their motives are connected to the actual struggle between shards of adolnasium, something I doubt the others are keenly aware of or embroiled in. However, their motives are as of yet an enigma.

 

All that being said, this theory doesn't really have a resounding conclusion. On the contrary, I am really making the point that we are probably wrong about a lot. Nevertheless, in conclusion:

 

The return of the voidbringers means more than we think it does. Given that multiple groups are competing to return the voidbringers, there is probably some benefit to be had for whoever first creates voidbringers. However, restoring the voidbringers might not be as insane of an idea as we think. Gavilar might actually have been saving Roshar.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[A Windspren he/him]

Where did you get the cover synopsis? I've never heard about it before. It seems that one of the four will turn against the KR though, which sounds ominous.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

That is I think on the back cover of the WoK book.

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

While I agree with you that most of our assumptions are probably wrong about the Desolations,

voidbringers and Odium, I have to disagree that the presence of Radiants per se is associated with the Desolations.

Remember, from what we have seen in the books so far:

Heralds---> Spren copy surges on their own--->Surgebinders--->Knights Radiants.

So, if what the books show is correct, the 1st Desolation was fought by the Heralds and regular humans versus voidbringers,

with Surgebinders/Radiants coming after.

And, if the Listener/Parshendi songs are correct, the Listeners turned to Odium after the spren granted surges to humans.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Perhaps.

But it seems like at some times spren remain aloof from humanity (no radiants, parshendi usually remained in dullform) and then at some point both odium spren and radiant spren would show up.

Whether or not it is correct for people to draw a causal relation, they do happen together. Always. Which might mean something.

[echaozh he/him]

The Rosharians may have a very different view on how to save Roshar from the residents of other Shardworlds. We as outsiders think the Rosharians should try their best to trap Odium there, but is it really the best thing for them?

 

Bringing back voidbringers and destroying knights radiant seems to be the best way to guarantee a victory for Odium. Presumably it releases him from Roshar. What if it's what those self assigned Roshar saviors want? Yes, the people may be invaded and ravaged by the voidbringers, but it may be temporary. They may even be able to strike a deal with Odium to take away the voidbringers after he wins.

 

After all, we now assume Odium is free to roam in the cosmere after the first 5 books right?

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Perhaps... This would be an interesting motive. Of all the groups, I would guess the ghostbloods would be most likely to entertain such a notion.

 

It seems to me that at least some people actually think that by bringing back the voidbringers, they can return the radiants, though. I mean, Gavilar just sort of casually asked the parshendi if it would be possible to bring back the voidbringers, hence why they wanted him dead. For some reason he thought that there was some kind of good reason to do this.

 

Then, I suppose vin thought she was doing something good at the well of ascension when she released ruin...

[echaozh he/him]

 

 

Then, I suppose vin thought she was doing something good at the well of ascension when she released ruin...

I think Taravangian must have been quite transcendent when he was writing the Diagram, like Elend when he was flaring his Atium in the last battle and could see through all Realms. Otherwise, he could have not been so cosmere aware without external information sources.

 

If this is the case, I think he would not be so easily fooled or manipulated when writing it. However, the interpretation process may very well be misguided by Odium. His relying on death rattles caused by one of the Unmades is a sign that he is at least partway off the honorable path.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

While considering all of this, one might also consider that Mrall isn't necessarily trustworthy. He is arguably more dedicated to the diagram than even Taravangian is. In his position, it would be easy to derail things.

It is also somewhat of strange that Taravangian's predictions are actually so accurate. In a state of such heightened intellect, his empathy and general understanding of other humans around him must have been practically nonexistent (in states of lesser genius he had attempted to push forward shockingly naive laws, like demanding anybody below certain intelligence levels commit suicide for the greater good). I suppose this in of itself could account for what he is doing. His empathy levels were probably close to negative ten sigma when compared to most people.

Still, his actions seem a little to well guided at destroying Roshar.

[Ari he/him]

The Rosharians may have a very different view on how to save Roshar from the residents of other Shardworlds. We as outsiders think the Rosharians should try their best to trap Odium there, but is it really the best thing for them?

 

Bringing back voidbringers and destroying knights radiant seems to be the best way to guarantee a victory for Odium. Presumably it releases him from Roshar. What if it's what those self assigned Roshar saviors want? Yes, the people may be invaded and ravaged by the voidbringers, but it may be temporary. They may even be able to strike a deal with Odium to take away the voidbringers after he wins.

 

After all, we now assume Odium is free to roam in the cosmere after the first 5 books right?

 

Except we know from Jasnah's research of Shadesmar that the return of the Knights Radiant is a reaction to the Desolations, not a cause of it. Certain factions (most notably the Skybreakers and Diagrammists) are convinced otherwise, but they are definitely incorrect. I'm pretty sure there's also WoB on that too.

 

We do not know that Odium is free after the first five books.

 

I think Taravangian must have been quite transcendent when he was writing the Diagram, like Elend when he was flaring his Atium in the last battle and could see through all Realms. Otherwise, he could have not been so cosmere aware without external information sources.

 

If this is the case, I think he would not be so easily fooled or manipulated when writing it. However, the interpretation process may very well be misguided by Odium. His relying on death rattles caused by one of the Unmades is a sign that he is at least partway off the honorable path.

 

We don't know what state he was in when he wrote the diagram as we've not really heard anything that gives it away enough. There's all sorts of possibilities and pet theories, none of them with enough info to be proven just yet. He is definitely off the honourable path, as that path is essentially by definition reserved for those who have some moral compatibility with the Knights Radiant

 

I'm pretty convinced that Taravangian is using the wrong half of his gift and has had his extreme intelligence subtly manipulated by Odium. I could be wrong and he could have figured everything out on his own, but either way, he's definitely playing into Odium's hands in what he's doing.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Ari

[echaozh he/him]

We do know his minions leave Roshar, and are still invested with some of his power.

 

 

WoB?

[Ari he/him]

You may want to edit or delete that quoted part of my post, I realised on reading it that it contains spoilers that shouldn't be on this board just yet.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

An interesting fact on the death rattles... The diagram actually says they are a distraction and something Taravangian should not pay attention to. So... Why exactly is Taravangian using these to augment the diagram? I doubt Sanderson would be reusing the exact same thing ruin did to the prophecy, but something vaguely similar is happening.

[kaellok he/him]

We also know that Ameram was interested in bringing back the voidbringers.

This is...not entirely correct.

 

Amaram wants a return of Vorin dominance.  He thinks this will happen if there is another Desolation, because that will force the Heralds to return.  So, while he may be acting to bring back voidbringers, it's not at all because he is on Odium's side, or even intending to ally with them at all.  

 

Other groups that may or may not be looking to the return of the voidbringers and Desolation all believe that they have a way to profit/benefit from it.  People have been using imaginary devils/demons to unify people under their rule for basically as long as human civilization has existed--imagine if those devils/demons were real and falling from the sky.  There's a whole lot of people who seek power who would absolutely use that, and might be foolish enough to think that it's a good thing.

 

I do not see any way that those who make "first contact" with the voidbringers after their return are set to benefit in any way.  From what I can see, all the groups (with exception of the Ghost Bloods who remain mysterious and unknown) seek to use the fact of the voidbringer return, or that which comes with the voidbringers, to their own advantage, 

 

Also, the best villains are those that have real motivations, and are able to realize victory even when defeated.  Sanderson is pretty good at creating villains that are both of these things, so if any of the groups have motivations as simple as, "SUMMON ODIUM TO DESTROY THE WORLD!!!! HUZZAH!!!" I'll be shocked.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

This is...not entirely correct.

 

Amaram wants a return of Vorin dominance.  He thinks this will happen if there is another Desolation, because that will force the Heralds to return.  So, while he may be acting to bring back voidbringers, it's not at all because he is on Odium's side, or even intending to ally with them at all.  

 

Other groups that may or may not be looking to the return of the voidbringers and Desolation all believe that they have a way to profit/benefit from it.  People have been using imaginary devils/demons to unify people under their rule for basically as long as human civilization has existed--imagine if those devils/demons were real and falling from the sky.  There's a whole lot of people who seek power who would absolutely use that, and might be foolish enough to think that it's a good thing.

 

I do not see any way that those who make "first contact" with the voidbringers after their return are set to benefit in any way.  From what I can see, all the groups (with exception of the Ghost Bloods who remain mysterious and unknown) seek to use the fact of the voidbringer return, or that which comes with the voidbringers, to their own advantage, 

 

Also, the best villains are those that have real motivations, and are able to realize victory even when defeated.  Sanderson is pretty good at creating villains that are both of these things, so if any of the groups have motivations as simple as, "SUMMON ODIUM TO DESTROY THE WORLD!!!! HUZZAH!!!" I'll be shocked.

 

I never said anybody was in league with odium. I said Ameram was trying to bring back the voidbringers. Which, as you yourself have noted, is confirmed.

 

The ghostbloods are definitely one of the more interesting of involved parties, however. As worldhoppers, their motives may have much more scope than those of the others.

[kaellok he/him]

 I said Ameram was trying to bring back the voidbringers. Which, as you yourself have noted, is confirmed.

 

That's just it though--you're seeing a by-product of his plan, and saying that's what he's trying to do.

 

If he could dance a jig and return Vorinism to dominance in the land, that's what he'd do, and skip the whole voidbringer/Desolation thing.  

 

It's a small difference from what you've said, but if we're going to ascribe motives to what people are doing to determine if there's something larger going on, I think it's important to be completely correct

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Yes, but are we sure that all these attempts to bring back the voidbringers are purely unfounded and misguided? There are quite a few immensely powerful and well populated secret societies racing to do just this. What I am asserting is that there might be more to it than what we are inclined to believe. I think they have a better reason than that to go down this path. It may or may not qualify as a good enough reason to justify returning the voidbringers, but this isn't so simple as "bring back voidbringers to bring back heralds."

Edited February 11, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[kaellok he/him]

 

"I do not exult in this success, he wrote.  Lives will be lost.  It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor.  To return the Heralds, to return the dominance of the Church, we had to put the world into a crisis.

 

That crisis we now have, a terrible one.  The Heralds will return.  how can they not, with the problems we now face?  But many will die.  So very many. ..."

Words of Radiance, chapter 88, pg. 1060 in US hard-cover version.  Amaram is writing a letter to Restares

 

 

"Prices would need to be paid to see the Heralds return, but by Jezerezeh himself, the loss of Dalinar's friendship would be a stiff one indeed."

Words of Radiance, chapter 88, pg. 1061 in US hard-cover version.  Amaram 's internal thoughts while freeing Talenelat

Amaram's motives are clearly laid out, and not mysterious.  We see his thoughts/explanations as he is talking to another of his order, as well as inside his own head.  If there is any benefit to having the voidbringers back aside from the Desolation/catastrophe/crisis that they bring with them, Amaram does not note it.  This facet of your argument, while small, is flawed and should not be included.  

 

Please know that I am not trying to be mean, or rude, or to discourage you in any way.  I'm just trying to point out holes in your argument/theory, so that they can be fixed/corrected and create a stronger, more coherent whole.  I realize I'm a fairly blunt person, and I have a tendency to state my beliefs as self-evident facts, and I also love to argue; and I don't always notice when I have crossed from good fun to accidentally insulting (which is why I am including this paragraph as explanation).

 

I don't actually disagree with all of your conclusion.  I firmly believe that whatever Gavilar was working towards, he personally believed it to be the salvation of Roshar--and he may even have been right.  It's possible that this includes the return of the voidbringers, but I think that them returning is a side-effect of saving Roshar, not the cause.  ie, sometimes you have to tear down what exists in order to make something better, and in the case of a prison, that may mean bad people running around for a time.  And sometimes the permanent fix isn't made at the time before, but it can be made now.  

 

(Blah blah, Sauron, wring-wraiths, the One Ring, etc.  Also strong analogy to basic over-arching plot of the WoT series and Forsaken.  And a very large number of other epic fantasy series.  Ancient evil that was delayed before and is slowly wakening only to be defeated by the plucky heroes is a very common trope, after all.) (I'm no longer sure I'm making sense, so just hitting post and going to bed now.)

[Oversleep]

I wonder if there is some cosmere-aware group cooperating with another Shard and they wanted the return of Voidbringers just because it meant that Odium had to weaken himself to create some voidspren. And then Odium would be attacked when he would be at his weakest.

Just random thought.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Amaram's motives are clearly laid out, and not mysterious.  We see his thoughts/explanations as he is talking to another of his order, as well as inside his own head.  If there is any benefit to having the voidbringers back aside from the Desolation/catastrophe/crisis that they bring with them, Amaram does not note it.  This facet of your argument, while small, is flawed and should not be included.  

 

Please know that I am not trying to be mean, or rude, or to discourage you in any way.  I'm just trying to point out holes in your argument/theory, so that they can be fixed/corrected and create a stronger, more coherent whole.  I realize I'm a fairly blunt person, and I have a tendency to state my beliefs as self-evident facts, and I also love to argue; and I don't always notice when I have crossed from good fun to accidentally insulting (which is why I am including this paragraph as explanation).

 

I don't actually disagree with all of your conclusion.  I firmly believe that whatever Gavilar was working towards, he personally believed it to be the salvation of Roshar--and he may even have been right.  It's possible that this includes the return of the voidbringers, but I think that them returning is a side-effect of saving Roshar, not the cause.  ie, sometimes you have to tear down what exists in order to make something better, and in the case of a prison, that may mean bad people running around for a time.  And sometimes the permanent fix isn't made at the time before, but it can be made now.  

 

(Blah blah, Sauron, wring-wraiths, the One Ring, etc.  Also strong analogy to basic over-arching plot of the WoT series and Forsaken.  And a very large number of other epic fantasy series.  Ancient evil that was delayed before and is slowly wakening only to be defeated by the plucky heroes is a very common

trope, after all.) (I'm no longer sure I'm making sense, so just hitting post and going to bed now.)

I point out issues in these sorts of things plenty of times as well. It is a way to maintain continuity and such. You should become a theory breaker.

At any rate, the voidbringers are certainly to be viewed as a side effect. I wonder what exactly a desolation entails of from the perspectives of the involved shards...

 

I wonder if there is some cosmere-aware group cooperating with another Shard and they wanted the return of Voidbringers just because it meant that Odium had to weaken himself to create some voidspren. And then Odium would be attacked when he would be at his weakest.

Just random thought.

 

Interesting thought. And, the leaders of the ghostbloods are cosmere aware, because at least some of their members worldhop.

 

The most unusual thing about the conflicts between shards underlying all of this is that a shard's power can really only do things in proportion to how much the shard has invested in the area. It makes me wonder, was adolnasium restricted to certain locations pre-shattering? Was adolnasium only a god on a few worlds it had invested in? It would be reasonable to conclude that adolnasium would be able to invest in sixteen times more planets than a regular shard could, but would this nevertheless ultimately limit the area adolnasium itself could reach?

[LordFlea]

An interesting fact on the death rattles... The diagram actually says they are a distraction and something Taravangian should not pay attention to. So... Why exactly is Taravangian using these to augment the diagram? 

Trying to see where odium doesn't want him to go perhaps? Perhaps by discovering to what end Odium is "manipulating" him, he can gain insight to the correct path.

[Ari he/him]

WoB?

So now we're no longer in strict spoiler policy, the part I edited out of my post was related to a scene in Bands of Mourning where a Voidbringer shows up on Scadrial. (Well, it's possibly some other humanoid creature with glowing red eyes, but most likely a Voidbringer)

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Trying to see where odium doesn't want him to go perhaps? Perhaps by discovering to what end Odium is "manipulating" him, he can gain insight to the correct path.

 

Interesting. Yes, this may be Taravangian's intent. Yet Taravangian's smarter self did specifically say that death rattles were just a distraction. One way or another, gathering them is an attempt to gain additional knowledge... It just strikes me as dangerous that in this case he is actually going against the instructions of the diagram.

[Chaos he/him]

So now we're no longer in strict spoiler policy, the part I edited out of my post was related to a scene in Bands of Mourning where a Voidbringer shows up on Scadrial. (Well, it's possibly some other humanoid creature with glowing red eyes, but most likely a Voidbringer)

I mean that is not confirmed in any way and, from my knowledge in Mistborn forums, is not the forum consensus. Big assumption!

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Also an additional note on this

It is easy to say Ameram and possibly even Gavilar were misguided in thinking that the voidbringers returning meant other things like the radiants returning

But we should also remember that Nin, Herald of justice, has a quite similar belief...

For one reason or other, the presence of voidbringers and the presence of radiants are closely linked to each other. The actions of all these characters imply that you can't have one without the other.

Possibly something to do with how the shards invest. They try to maintain a balance, perhaps? The shard of honor is dead, so it would mindlessly try to balance anything odium is doing.