What would Odium's magic system be?

[Lilamal]

Same question as the title: What would Odium's magic system be? We can safely assume that the magic system is influenced by the Shard's Intent, so it would most likely be something destructive.

 

Edit: I mean what would his magic system be on Braize.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Lilamal

[Blightsong]

We have absolutely no idea, and it changes from planet to planet. On Roshar it has to do with the surges in some way, but we don't know in what way. Hopefully we will find out soon.

[Yata]

If you ask about "Odium's Magic System on Roshar" probably as H&C's ones:

Odium's power manifest itself like Splinters bonding as parassite with influenced being (the Listener's Form of power) and with powerful Splinters (Unmade) manipulate the Roshar's people with more limits but also more range of target. (I immagine them like an Odium's Nightwatcher).

 

While if you ask about "Odium's Magic System on Braize", I suppose nobody may answer it, we don't know quite nothing on that Shardworld and how the magic arise on it.

[Rasarr]

I could guess something about manipulating emotions, perhaps to the point of full-blown possession - as we've seen in Listeners' forms of power.
 
When thinking of Odium, I'm reminded of Rivers of London (I'll put the rest under spoilers, in case anyone here plans on reading the book - do it)

where the villain has the ability to manipulate crowd psychology, which he can use to incite riots throughout the entire city.

 

It sounds like something the Shard of Wrath could have in its portfolio. Perhaps one of the Unmade might be capable of doing this.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Rasarr

[Lilamal]

Actually, yes I did mean his magic system on Braize. It's always something that's in line with the Shard's Intent, so that's at least one thing we have to go on.

 

"Shards, Adonalsium, worlds, spren. That's all you ever talk about! I don't even know what half of it means! Can you please talk about something I like? Like destroying evil? Or Hoid? I like that guy."

"I know you like him. You say it every time we see someone that looks like him."

"So why won't you talk about him?"

"Because this is the wrong place for that. I created a place for it, but this isn't it."

"So? Why does that matter?"

"It just does."

"Not to me."

"You wouldn't understand. Anyway, we should stop talking about this. People are starting to stare. All they see is a guy talking to a sword. Not to mention the fact that there's the "That guy has a freaking sword" factor."

"I don't care. I want to talk about Hoid! Wait, wha-no, don't put me in the backpack! No, wait, don't put me in there, plea-."

"There, that's better."

Edited February 1, 2016 by Lilamal

[Landis963]

Actually, yes I did mean his magic system on Braize. It's always something that's in line with the shard's intent, so that's at least one thing we have to go on.

 

Not to the degree you might be thinking - Allomancy is of Preservation, but there are powers associated with Allomancy that don't really scream "Preservation."  Likewise, not all the Surges seem like something Honor would be OK with granting, but Surgebinding is of Honor.  Where we can look for a Shard's intent, however, is in how the powers are obtained, and how they act once used.  Surgebinding grants power through adherence to Oaths.  Hemalurgy steals powers by ripping them off a victim's soul, leaving it broken.  BioChroma is fueled by giving one's Breath to another.  In this way, Odium's magic system would be obtained through actions in keeping with his Intent.  I have some thoughts on that, but they can wait until another post.  

 

EDIT: Or this one, since there've been no replies since my post. OK then.  Anyway, actions in keeping with hatred are inherently destructive, or borne out of a desire to do destruction to someone or some people.  Therefore, whatever Odium's system happens to be, it will be actively harmful to the practitioner, and possibly very very good at harming others.  This matches with the example we've seen of Voidbinding, with stormform actively suppressing the original mind.  But let's go deeper.  How does hatred arise in the first place?  I would argue that it comes about from a warped sense of consequence and justice, as in "how dare you do such-and-such!  You must pay for your insolence!"  Therefore, Odium's system would involve a sort of equivalent exchange, where you give up a piece of yourself (cognitively, spiritually, physically, I couldn't begin to comment) for some effect, with the understanding that said effect would rebound upon you eventually, and probably with interest.  

Edited January 31, 2016 by Landis963

[Oversleep]

I, for one, would love to see an actual usable magic system of Odium. One that's not inherently evil. Like Hemalurgy (yeah, I hear the screams that no magic is evil in itself. But hear me out.). Nobody would be willing to go through with everything Hemalurgy requires. Even executing murderers with it is unacceptable for me since the donor would be unable to move on to afterlife. Murder part could be excused as means of executing convicted murderers or something along this lines, but condemning that person to wander endlessly, unable to move on to afterlife? I'm out.
Voidbinding is unusable by the person who wishes to Voidbind - the Voidbinding uses the person as conductor, but the person is suppresed and cannot use it, therefore it's useless.

I can't see someone think "I need something powerful to do X and Y" and then sign up for a voidspren. Because after merging with it it's Odium in control and not the person.

[DrakeMarshall]

I believe that there is some reference to voidbinding, not just surgebinding, at the end of WoK and WoR. So presumably on Roshar, odium's magic is voidbinding.

What does voidbinding look like? Well I believe that voidbinding is what one has access to in the forms of power. I would say a stormform's power over lightning is a type of voidbinding. Presumably a nightform's future sight is also voidbinding. Not sure what the specific powers of shadowform or smokeform would be, but also probably reflections of odium's magic.

It is not surprising that using odium's power warps you to odium's intent (Eshonai becoming evil). This seems to be the case to a very limited extent for all the magic systems in the cosmere. It also stands to reason that odium's power would be the one that twists the user the most.

Mind you, odium spren can also do things like make stormclasts. So their spren can do some other dangerous magical things. But I believe the most prominent magic system on roshar that is of odium is voidbinding, what is granted to the forms of power.

[Lilamal]

Not to the degree you might be thinking - Allomancy is of Preservation, but there are powers associated with Allomancy that don't really scream "Preservation." 

Yes, but Allomancy was probably influenced by Ruin as well. Ruin and Preservation shared Allomancy, Ruin had Hemalurgy and Preservation had Feruchemy. Also, I said it was influenced by the Shard's Intent, not created to line up with it completely.

[Pathfinder]

Yes, but Allomancy was probably influenced by Ruin as well. Ruin and Preservation shared Allomancy, Ruin had Hemalurgy and Preservation had Feruchemy. Also, I said it was influenced by the Shard's Intent, not created to line up with it completely.

Allomancy is pure preservation, feruchemy is preservation and ruin, hemalurgy is pure ruin. 

[Ari]

It's quite difficult to say what Braize's magic would be, as the only magic we've seen that actually depended heavily on the Shard's intent has been Hemalurgy. Every other magic system has either been much more related to the planet's Focus, (eg. the systems on Sel) the planet's Manifestation, (eg. Roshar) or both. (eg. Nalthis)

[Oversleep]

It's quite difficult to say what Braize's magic would be, as the only magic we've seen that actually depended heavily on the Shard's intent has been Hemalurgy. Every other magic system has either been much more related to the planet's Focus, (eg. the systems on Sel) the planet's Manifestation, (eg. Roshar) or both. (eg. Nalthis)

Awakening also depends heavily on Endowment's Intent.

[DrakeMarshall]

The things you need to do to access the power seem to be most tied to a shard's intent, the physical manifestation of the power seems to be most tied to the planet.

[Ari]

Awakening also depends heavily on Endowment's Intent.

 

Well... kind of? You have to get into the mechanics of understanding how it works (endowing a copy of your mind focusing on a simple Command to an inanimate object or dead flesh) before it becomes obvious. And much of how Endowment works is just as dependent on the Focus (the Command) and the Manifestation of the Investiture. (Colour) I would say it is aligned well with Endowment's Intent, but depends on enough other things that you couldn't come up with Awakening just from knowing its Shard was Endowment. Hemalurgy is a bit more guessable.

[theuntaintedchild]

I have an idea on this topic. What if the magic system in "The Silence Divine" is Odium's. The one about sicknesses granting powers. Nothing affects my mood quite like being sick. And it would be easily spread to others. I realize that TSD takes place on Ashyn but perhaps that was the first world Odium landed on. The Coppermind wiki currently states that Ashyn doesn't have a shard, but that's not to say it never did. 

[Oathbringer]

On Roshar: The Unmade-Powerful spren with sweeping effects like the death rattles and the Thrill.

Evil spren-used by parshendi for transformation to void bringer forms like storm callers at the end of WoR. Could have surges.

 

On other shards his power probably manifests differently but it seems to have a theme of influencing or controlling other people's actions (parshendi are not free when in the void bringer forms).

[Confused]

1. Braize may be where Odium now is, but that doesn’t mean he invested it or that it is his “home” planet.  Braize is part of the prison that holds him “captive” in Greater Roshar (Second Letter). Odium may not have interacted with Braize in the way that creates magic systems.

 

2. Whatever Odium’s mandate (intent) is, it does not form relationships. Unlike Honor, who binds things, Odium is a loner. That is the nature of hatred – divisive, corrosive, alone. He “pours” investiture through some “hole” in other entities (WoB). His investiture isn’t bound to those entities, like Honor’s and Cultivation’s is. It does not connect to their SpiritWeb. When listeners embrace stormform, they bond with stormspren; but stormspren aren’t bound to Odium’s investiture, they just “carry” it. (See my description of this process in this post under the "What" heading.) Odium maintains his “strength” by not investing anywhere.

 

3. Voidbringing is not Voidbinding. The former appears to be of Odium but the latter does not. I’ve speculated that Voidbinding is the Rosharan magic system that Honor uses to keep Odium captive in Greater Roshar – Honor “binds the Void.” (I’ve further speculated that the Honorblades are Voidbinding fabrials created by Honor for this purpose.)

 

4. Whether Odium is captive or it’s simply his nature, I believe that Odium’s “power” (which technically only refers to the Physical Realm manifestation of investiture according to Sazed) resides in the Cognitive Realm. He influences events through his invasion of the influenced entities’ minds. I believe Odium splinters other Shards by his conversion of the local Shardworlds’ Cognitive Realm investiture into something alien to the local Shard: a form of brain cancer that squeezes out “healthy” cells, prevents the Shard from exercising its magic, and ultimately kills the Shard. I’m beginning to think that hemalurgic spikes may play a role in accelerating this process. (I’d say more of this, but it raises spoilers from the recently published novels).

Edited February 3, 2016 by Confused

[Oversleep]

Well... kind of? You have to get into the mechanics of understanding how it works (endowing a copy of your mind focusing on a simple Command to an inanimate object or dead flesh) before it becomes obvious. And much of how Endowment works is just as dependent on the Focus (the Command) and the Manifestation of the Investiture. (Colour) I would say it is aligned well with Endowment's Intent, but depends on enough other things that you couldn't come up with Awakening just from knowing its Shard was Endowment. Hemalurgy is a bit more guessable.

Actually I meant Endowing Breath. You Endow Breath through Command accompanied by mind onto something.

[DrakeMarshall]

1. Braize may be where Odium now is, but that doesn’t mean he invested it or that it is his “home” planet.  Braize is part of the prison that holds him “captive” in Greater Roshar (Second Letter). Odium may not have interacted with Braize in the way that creates magic systems.

 

2. Whatever Odium’s mandate (intent) is, it does not form relationships. Unlike Honor, who binds things, Odium is a loner. That is the nature of hatred – divisive, corrosive, alone. He “pours” investiture through some “hole” in other entities (WoB). His investiture isn’t bound to those entities, like Honor’s and Cultivation’s is. It does not connect to their SpiritWeb. When listeners embrace stormform, they bond with stormspren; but stormspren aren’t bound to Odium’s investiture, they just “carry” it. (See my description of this process in this post under the "What" heading.) Odium maintains his “strength” by not investing anywhere.

 

3. Voidbringing is not Voidbinding. The former appears to be of Odium but the latter does not. I’ve speculated that Voidbinding is the Rosharan magic system that Honor uses to keep Odium captive in Greater Roshar – Honor “binds the Void.” (I’ve further speculated that the Honorblades are Voidbinding fabrials created by Honor for this purpose.)

 

4. Whether Odium is captive or it’s simply his nature, I believe that Odium’s “power” (which technically only refers to the Physical Realm manifestation of investiture according to Sazed) resides in the Cognitive Realm. He influences events through his invasion of the influenced entities’ minds. I believe Odium splinters other Shards by his conversion of the local Shardworlds’ Cognitive Realm investiture into something alien to the local Shard: a form of brain cancer that squeezes out “healthy” cells, prevents the Shard from exercising its magic, and ultimately kills the Shard. I’m beginning to think that hemalurgic spikes may play a role in accelerating this process. (I’d say more of this, but it raises spoilers from the recently published novels).

Interesting. So odium doesn't technically invest itself into any other beings. However, the presence of unmade spren of odium causing the thrill and death rattles and such means that there are beings that can still associate with odium's power (though they might be controlled almost directly by odium's will). I am certain that the voidbringer's forms of power are fueled by odium's investiture, and even if this isn't "voidbinding" it is definitely a sort of magic system made by odium. Note that this magic of odium basically can't be used by anybody, in accessing the power the person is basically controlled by it. This is in line with the nature of odium and how it invests, it would seem.

[Oversleep]

3. Voidbringing is not Voidbinding. The former appears to be of Odium but the latter does not. I’ve speculated that Voidbinding is the Rosharan magic system that Honor uses to keep Odium captive in Greater Roshar – Honor “binds the Void.” (I’ve further speculated that the Honorblades are Voidbinding fabrials created by Honor for this purpose.

Actually it was always called Voidbinding.

[Ari]

Actually I meant Endowing Breath. You Endow Breath through Command accompanied by mind onto something.

 

No, we have WoB on this. The breath just powers the Endowment. You are copying a part of your mind that is focused on executing the Command.

[Oversleep]

No, we have WoB on this. The breath just powers the Endowment. You are copying a part of your mind that is focused on executing the Command.

And how is it incosistent with what I said? What's your point?

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

Ari, I believe the point Oversleep is trying to make is less about the mechanics of Awakening, and more about how it's nature is tied to Endowment's Intent. No matter the specific role Breath plays in the process of Awakening, the fact that Breath has to be Endowed makes the entire nature of the magic system inseparable from Endowment's Intent. Not to mention the fact that one Breath is barely enough fuel to do anything, most useful Commands require much more than that, and Breath can't be taken from another person by force, one person must always willingly Endow his or her Breaths on another person in order for that person to accumulate large quantities of Breath.

 

From that perspective, Awakening is more visibly of Endowment than even Allomancy is of Preservation, IMO.