[Secret History Spoiler] Killed Him

[Tri]

I'm not sure if this is common knowledge, or has been discussed yet so far (didn't see it, but could have missed it), but something I found very interesting in the discussion with Khriss.

 

The original shard holders did indeed kill Adonalsium. Now forgive me if that was already confirmed previously, but I didn't know that was for certain!

[Argent he/him]

No, this is indeed new information. I was taking pretty extensive notes of the interesting bits in Secret History (for about half of the book, then I just forgot...), and have been meaning to go over them and open for discussion - and this is one of the ones I was more excited about.

[Tri]

I believe this little bit of information should help expand some of our understanding of Hoid's actual intentions. I can now buy into the idea that Hoid is passively working against ALL shard holders in a form, but only actively working against the ones who are a more immediate threat.

 

Coupled with the knowledge that Yolen is essentially hidden, I think we are getting a bigger glimpse into the actual "war" going on.

[Lazarus52980]

Since we know that Adonalsium could have been broken differently, I'm guessing that the reason many of the shard holders wanted him dead was manifested in the intent of the shards they took up.  The only one that seems odd so far is Ati, since it was said hew was a decent guy and was "corrupted" by Ruin..

 

Maybe Ati was talked into helping kill him?  Sort of a "Hey, come and help us do this because it needs to be done!" kind of thing.

[Vortaan he/him]

Since we know that Adonalsium could have been broken differently, I'm guessing that the reason many of the shard holders wanted him dead was manifested in the intent of the shards they took up.  The only one that seems odd so far is Ati, since it was said hew was a decent guy and was "corrupted" by Ruin..

 

Maybe Ati was talked into helping kill him?  Sort of a "Hey, come and help us do this because it needs to be done!" kind of thing.

 

The interesting question is why though, isn't it? What was Adonolasium doing that was so bad that the likes of Leras, Tanavast, and Ati were compelled to ally with Rayse to destroy him? Also... anyone else thinking that maybe the God Beyond is Adonlasium? I mean... if they killed him, his spiritual aspect had to go somewhere, right?

[Ari he/him]

Yeah this was very interesting information indeed, that Adonalsium was in fact splintered/killed deliberately by the sixteen original shardholders. Without speculating a bit it doesn't tell us their motives, but it does paint them in a rather less flattering light than we previously knew.

 

Since we know that Adonalsium could have been broken differently, I'm guessing that the reason many of the shard holders wanted him dead was manifested in the intent of the shards they took up.  The only one that seems odd so far is Ati, since it was said hew was a decent guy and was "corrupted" by Ruin..

 

Maybe Ati was talked into helping kill him?  Sort of a "Hey, come and help us do this because it needs to be done!" kind of thing.

 

Didn't we have WoB that Ati was a very good man, but didn't have the force of will to stand up to Ruin? I would have thought that implied pretty heavily that Ati intended to moderate Ruin as a force, but ended up being consumed by it.

 

I believe this little bit of information should help expand some of our understanding of Hoid's actual intentions. I can now buy into the idea that Hoid is passively working against ALL shard holders in a form, but only actively working against the ones who are a more immediate threat.

 

Coupled with the knowledge that Yolen is essentially hidden, I think we are getting a bigger glimpse into the actual "war" going on.

 

Yeah, makes it look like whatever force was out to get Adonalsium might have been focused on Yolen, and that possibly they Shattered Adonalsium because it/they wasn't defending them. The Shards then hid Yolen as their first action, and went about meddling in the rest of the Cosmere, possibly with the initial intention of drawing attention away from Yolen?

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

What took me by surprise was the way Khriss mentioned the deaths of previous Shards, comparing it to beheading, implying it a rather quick and sudden process. Not to mention I was getting a vibe that there were deaths than we originally thought

[Ryshadium she/her]

Hoid was present for the Shattering, correct? I don't get the feeling, however, that he was involved in it, or I suppose as we know now, killing Adonalsium.

So why was he there? Innocent bystander? Active participant in protecting Adonalsium? If the latter, it could let itself to the theory that he's trying to reform it.

[natc]

Yeah this was very interesting information indeed, that Adonalsium was in fact splintered/killed deliberately by the sixteen original shardholders. Without speculating a bit it doesn't tell us their motives, but it does paint them in a rather less flattering light than we previously knew.

Didn't we have WoB that Ati was a very good man, but didn't have the force of will to stand up to Ruin? I would have thought that implied pretty heavily that Ati intended to moderate Ruin as a force, but ended up being consumed by it.

Yeah, makes it look like whatever force was out to get Adonalsium might have been focused on Yolen, and that possibly they Shattered Adonalsium because it/they wasn't defending them. The Shards then hid Yolen as their first action, and went about meddling in the rest of the Cosmere, possibly with the initial intention of drawing attention away from Yolen?

Ruin will win against Ati regardless. There's really no resisting having one's personality consumed that we know of. Even Sazed is already not doing so hot.

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

What took me by surprise was the way Khriss mentioned the deaths of previous Shards, comparing it to beheading, implying it a rather quick and sudden process. Not to mention I was getting a vibe that there were deaths than we originally thought

 

I forget where it was but at one of the recent signings someone asked how many Shards are Splintered and how many are whole, and Brandon said it was roughly half and half. Now, we don't know if he's saying roughly eight of the original Vessels like Ati and Leras are dead, or if he's counting Shards like Endowment as Splintered given that all the Divine Breaths she gives out are Splinters of her.

 

But either way, it suggests at least eight of the original Vessels are still around and kicking (including Edgli/Endowment, Cultivation, Odium and most likely Autonomy).

[Hbal]

Leras said that Hoid promised to not meddle or something of that sort, but was keen to point out that not keeping a promise was hardly something unexpected of Hoid. Something like that.. @8

[Ari he/him]

What took me by surprise was the way Khriss mentioned the deaths of previous Shards, comparing it to beheading, implying it a rather quick and sudden process. Not to mention I was getting a vibe that there were deaths than we originally thought

 

I had thought she was simply talking about Aona and Skai.

 

Ruin will win against Ati regardless. There's really no resisting having one's personality consumed that we know of. Even Sazed is already not doing so hot.

 

Sazed will be influenced by the shards he's holding, sure, but I don't really agree with your impression. Sazed is struggling, if anything, with the nature of having godlike powers, and that impression was reinforced to me after reading M:BoM. We have WoB that it's possible to resist a Shard's intent to some degree, and Sazed has the advantage of the two intents pulling him in different directions, which may reduce the influence to a certain extent. (of course, Sazed might still be pushed in a direction the two intents agree on, or if one of the powers has more influence than the other, he might have difficulty staying balanced without taking measures to address that)

[natc]

Well he's definitely not far gone yet. But he's already having difficulty doing anything beyond the impossibility that is "to preserve and ruin", which is most everything. Compared to the spectacular feats of the first minute or so that's quite the downgrade in freedom of will.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

IIRC correctly, there was also another recent WoB about that some Vessels are still active resisting the Intents of the Shards they carry.

I'd interpret that to say that the Shards they carried were still intact, not necessarily the Vessels are still the same, although there was a WoB about Shards not changing hands frequently

[The Invested Beard]

Hoid was present for the Shattering, correct? I don't get the feeling, however, that he was involved in it, or I suppose as we know now, killing Adonalsium.

So why was he there? Innocent bystander? Active participant in protecting Adonalsium? If the latter, it could let itself to the theory that he's trying to reform it.

 

I have a weird hunch that if Adonalsium was a "being" as Khriss surmises, perhaps Hoid had some sort of relationship with/to it/him/her. Even if it's that of devoted follower. I could see this playing into him having an agenda outside of shard against shard as he sees what the original holders did as killing his loved one. Anyone remember Hoid stating in the Stormlight Archive that he wants what he could never have? Maybe that's getting Adonalsium back the way he/she/it was before being murdered...

[Moogle]

What took me by surprise was the way Khriss mentioned the deaths of previous Shards, comparing it to beheading, implying it a rather quick and sudden process. Not to mention I was getting a vibe that there were deaths than we originally thought

 

I think the implication is that the Shardholder has to die first, and then the Splintering can happen suddenly. But I'm not sure.

[TwelfthOfSnackTime he/him]

I think we are all ignoring the idea that Kriss could be wrong. The only ones who know for sure are the Shards themselves and Hoid. She might be just theorizing because 'to the victor goes the spoils' (aka the Shards). We might never know for sure what happened until Dragonsteel comes out.

[emailanimal he/him]

Decided to finally get an account and post here. 

 

This (the 16 current Shardholders killed Adonalsium)  was, in my opinion, the greatest revelation in the two books that just came out. It puts a lot of things into perspective. Some quick thoughts:

 

 1. God-killing, of course, is not necessarily an evil act by itself. Khriss mentions a multitude of motives, and we know that there are individuals among the Shardholders who were decent/honorable etc.... 

 

 2. Whatever were the underlying reasons for doing what they did, the Shattering hardly stabilized the situation. 

 

 3. Ym's belief system may need some additional in-depth study. I am now certain that this was a decent-sized hint as to various motivations.

 

 4. It seems that whatever the end-game is for Cosmere in its current form, survival of any Shards may not be necessary or even desirable.  I kind of like the idea that Hoid's plan involves making sure that all Shards are down at the end, and their powers are scattered around Cosmere.

 

 5. I too am very interested in whatever transpired between Hoid and the 16 Shardholders.    Was any of this in Dragonsteel Prime?

 

 6. Finally, we learned that you cannot take a Shard without establishing some sort of Connection to it.  So, how did this play out at the Shattering? Did Adonalsium Shatter into these specific Intents because the 16 had Connections specifically to them?

[nervousnerd he/him]

4. It seems that whatever the end-game is for Cosmere in its current form, survival of any Shards may not be necessary or even desirable.  I kind of like the idea that Hoid's plan involves making sure that all Shards are down at the end, and their powers are scattered around Cosmere.

 

 6. Finally, we learned that you cannot take a Shard without establishing some sort of Connection to it.  So, how did this play out at the Shattering? Did Adonalsium Shatter into these specific Intents because the 16 had Connections specifically to them?

 

It may be that in the end, the best thing for the Cosmere is the  shattering of all shards but it seem to me that there is an enemy that is greater in power than any shard and may require someone taking up Adonalsium 's full power if that is possible.

Would Ati have a connection to Ruin? I know Ruin itself wasn't technically evil but even so, it would have been hard to justify how to use it for a good purpose.

[emailanimal he/him]

 

Would Ati have a connection to Ruin? I know Ruin itself wasn't technically evil but even so, it would have been hard to justify how to use it for a good purpose.

 

Puzzled me too, but then (a) Sazed established a Connection to Ruin, and ( I have seen some suggestions that Ati may have been a revolutionary type of person, which would make him Connected to Ruin.

[Lupis]

 

It may be that in the end, the best thing for the Cosmere is the  shattering of all shards but it seem to me that there is an enemy that is greater in power than any shard and may require someone taking up Adonalsium 's full power if that is possible.

Would Ati have a connection to Ruin? I know Ruin itself wasn't technically evil but even so, it would have been hard to justify how to use it for a good purpose.

I have a couple of thoughts related to that and I'm not sure which I prefer. Either Adonalsium was shattered to prevent its opposite from somehow taking its power. Or the 16 used the weapon the opposite created to then shatter Adonalsium. (Perhaps Odium still has the weapon which is why he's able to defeat the other shards.)

My only problem with the 2nd theory is why the 16 wanted to do it. I can understand why the opposite would give them the weapon to do it, but not why they would want to.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Lupis

[Lurky McLurkerson he/him]

 

 6. Finally, we learned that you cannot take a Shard without establishing some sort of Connection to it.  So, how did this play out at the Shattering? Did Adonalsium Shatter into these specific Intents because the 16 had Connections specifically to them?

 

What if the reason Hoid is collecting bits and pieces from all the worlds, like picking up the bit of Lerasium, so as to enable someone (himself?) to form Connections with all of the shards? 

Can't you picture it now? Some far future book culminates in Hoid talking some poor sap into sampling various bits of investiture(correct term?) so that they can be suckered into being the new Adonalsium?

 

Or I am completely wrong and this is why I lurk.

[nervousnerd he/him]

I can actually see him doing that. Not taking the power himself but tricking someone else into doing it.

 

Puzzled me too, but then (a) Sazed established a Connection to Ruin, and ( I have seen some suggestions that Ati may have been a revolutionary type of person, which would make him Connected to Ruin.

I didn't think about Sazed. Good point.

[emailanimal he/him]

I have a couple of thoughts related to that and I'm not sure which I prefer. Either Adonalsium was shattered to prevent its opposite from somehow taking its power. Or the 16 used the weapon the opposite created to then shatter Adonalsium. (Perhaps Odium still has the weapon which is why he's able to defeat the other shards.)

My only problem with the 2nd theory is why the 16 wanted to do it. I can understand why the opposite would give them the weapon to do it, but not why they would want to.

 

I am fairly certain that the 16 original Shardholders are the force that opposed Adonalsium.  The weapon they used - heck - *of course* they know what it is. Whether it is applicable to individual Shards is a different story.

 

 

I have also reread "The Letter", and I am now not as convinced that Hoid is actively or passively seeking the end of all Shards as before. He directly calls the splintering of Aona and Skai  a "disaster".  He seems to be very concerned about the Shards and Rayse's plans towards them.  There is something Hoid is doing though, something very specific. The recepient of his letter appears to be aware of at least the general gist of what Hoid wants to achieve and thinks it unreasonable and dangerous meddling. 

 

 This exchange looks as if both are thinking of themselves as, in some sense, overseers of Cosmere and the Shards.

[emailanimal he/him]

What if the reason Hoid is collecting bits and pieces from all the worlds, like picking up the bit of Lerasium, so as to enable someone (himself?) to form Connections with all of the shards? 

Can't you picture it now? Some far future book culminates in Hoid talking some poor sap into sampling various bits of investiture(correct term?) so that they can be suckered into being the new Adonalsium?

 

 

 I actually think that you may be onto something. Hoid clearly collects different types of Investiture. He acquires some for himself, but he might also be stashing others (and things like Breaths are transferrable anyway).  What I doubt is that he is the head (or the brains behind) an Adonalsium restoration project.