TheOneKEA Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 I was thinking about the mechanics of Realmatic Theory in connection with Scadrial while reading the Era 2 Mistborn novels and I had a sudden thought that I haven't seen a lot of discussion about in this board. What prevented the pile of atium in the kandra homeland from self-organizing into a Splinter of Ruin? When I thought about this for a while I figured that there were a few possible reasons why a Splinter didn't manifest from this pile of metal: - There was no Cognitive perception of the cache as a unified, organized entity, and so there was no opportunity for self-organization. - Preservation deliberately acted to prevent the Investiture taken from Ruin becoming self-organized when assembled in a large quantity. - The atium was in solid form and was therefore unable to interact with itself in the manner needed for self-organization. Has anyone thought about this at all? Does anyone have any theories of their own? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 It's metal. If it was black Mist it'd probably try something eventually but what would a pile of metal (that as far as I remember is perfectly susceptible to steelpushes) even do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King's Twit Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) I'm not entirely sure on what is a Shardpool and what isn't, but I think that might be a distinction here. The power at the Well was a much higher quantity (or at least similarly large) and was a liquid which I'd think would be easier to coalesce into a single entity, and yet it never developed any Intelligence either. The Pits of Hathsin were another Shardpool (I think), and so their product, Atium, faces a similar limitation on its ability to become a splinter. This might be because the power is exhaustible. The liquid in the Well and the Atium cache both ran out, their power returning to the source of the Shardpools' Investiture. This source is not the Shard itself, as burning the Atium would have then returned the power to Ruin, which is what Elend and the Mistfallen succeeded in avoiding. I'm not sure what that source would be. I remember a section of the annotations. or possibly an epigraph, where they mention how Preservation intentionally locked away some of Ruin's power in the Pits which led to them producing Atium. I guess that was a long way to say "I don't know", but I do think it might be related to the different natures of mostly-physical manifestations of Investiture, like the Atium, and mostly-cognitive manifestations of Investiture, like the spren. Edited January 10, 2016 by King's Twit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 Probably it's because of the solid nature of Atium as Metal ("Investiture in solid form does a specific thing"). The Shardpool's Investiture (that in the Liquid form have Most power of every other form) is still part of Ruin (or Preservation if we talk about the Well) and of course doesn't gain sentience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadFencer Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 It could also have something to do with the fact that it's hidden by metal, which we know keeps both Ruin and Preservation from seeing things. Maybe metal interferes with all shares on some way, or just shards forming from those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Maybe the atium is just Investiture, and doesn't have any soul to control it. You can't make a soul out of Investiture, you can only add to it or change it. Or maybe a Shard has to consciously make a decision to make a soul. This is just an assumption. I'm getting into very shaky ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Everything has a soul silly. Even sticks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 What about a sentient one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) I think you're looking for sapience. Because Stick is clearly a sentient being. But we're talking about investiture gaining sapience on its own anyway, so whether it had any before feels moot. Edited January 12, 2016 by natc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneKEA Posted January 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 Maybe the atium is just Investiture, and doesn't have any soul to control it. You can't make a soul out of Investiture, you can only add to it or change it. Or maybe a Shard has to consciously make a decision to make a soul. This is just an assumption. I'm getting into very shaky ground. I hadn't actually considered that as a possibility. I had always assumed that Investiture and Spiritual power were the same thing where the Shards were concerned and that if you put a lot of the former into one place that the latter would appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 The Atium gaining sapience would completely invalidate the Ruin/Preservation history, wouldn't it? If the Atium could become a self-sufficient entity, why would Preservation have gone to the trouble of sacrificing himself to lock away Ruin's mind? Additionally, even in it's entirety the atium cache was only a minor fraction of Ruin's power, only enough so that both shards would be equally 'strong', so the cache might not have contained enough investiture to become self-aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 Probably the Atium didn't become self-aware because it was still bound to a new "entity" born through Preservation's Power. The Pits of Hatsin. Thing about, all the Atium burned, returned to the Pit not to Ruin. It's a bit as if the Pit act as "quasi-Holder" or "keeper" to that part of Ruin's power. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 I think Yata hit it on the head, it's probably because it's been forced into physical form, it's in the physical realm, not the cognitive or spiritual realms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belcyrlis Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Out of curiosity, does anyone know if shards, or bits of shards like atium, have the same manifestation as, say, Stick does in the Cognative realm? Shallan was there as a human, Stick was a glass bead, Pattern was a symbol head. It seems to me that a shard would be altogether different, and therefore atium would be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneKEA Posted January 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 I think Yata hit it on the head, it's probably because it's been forced into physical form, it's in the physical realm, not the cognitive or spiritual realms. I agree, Yata's explanation seems to be the most likely one. If I get to see Brandon at a signing I will see if he is willing to answer questions about this or if he RAFOs them. It may provide some insight into Realmatic Theory on Scadrial, since it doesn't look like we'll be seeing the other two realms on this planet anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 15, 2016 Report Share Posted January 15, 2016 Out of curiosity, does anyone know if shards, or bits of shards like atium, have the same manifestation as, say, Stick does in the Cognative realm? Shallan was there as a human, Stick was a glass bead, Pattern was a symbol head. It seems to me that a shard would be altogether different, and therefore atium would be different. Might indeed be, though we haven't really seen the Cognitive Realm anywhere but Roshar so far. IIRC we're told that the Duralumin+Atium combo gives you a peek into the Spiritual Realm but we have no idea what something like a god metal would look like Cognitively. At least until someone in SA brings an honorblade to Shadesmare or something, that might give us an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahak Posted January 16, 2016 Report Share Posted January 16, 2016 If Syl is to be believed, the Atium Cache didn't gain sentience because no one anthropomorphised it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted January 16, 2016 Report Share Posted January 16, 2016 If Syl is to be believed, the Atium Cache didn't gain sentience because no one anthropomorphised it. Your statement makes sense, but from where are you quoting Syl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahak Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 Your statement makes sense, but from where are you quoting Syl? Apologies, looking at it I'm conflating Syl's "I'm a God, Well a small bit of one" and Jasnah's theory early in WoR on How Spren came to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 Wouldn't it just be that the atium is still tied to Ruin (specifically his mind). just because his mind is trapped, doesn't mean the power (which we're told is basically what atium is: a physical manifestation of his power) isn't still his, and isn't still bound to him. it just can't reach him. Also, I couldn't find it in my brief search, but I believe we have a WoB that a shard can't just start acting on its own. it needs a mind directing it. this is why Kelsier needed to step in when Leras died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Moridin Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 So apparently we have a WoB that may give a clear answer to this. ViperHah. So in Cosmere, does physics work the same way in the physical realm as it does in our world? Specifically, particle physics; and are atoms made up of protons and neutrons and electrons, and is light photons, etc?Brandon SandersonYes.ViperSo what's at the core of an atom of Atium? Ate-teum? Also how do you pronounce it? At-teum?Brandon SandersonYes. And the matter is just normal matter, but it's wrapped in the spiritual. The Spiritual DNA [or something] is what makes it magical.Viper(Note: he might've said slightly more about this but I didn't write it down and I don't remember. Sorry for not bringing a tape recorder :(/> )(source) The physical atium itself is just normal matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 He avoided the question though. So what is Atium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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