Amaram: Redemption or Revenge

[Chaos]

You may now return to your regularly scheduled, extremely civil discussion There should not be any additional issues, and I do not expect this thread to get heated. Respect each other, guys.

[DocHoliday]

Please, feel free to show me the place where you discussed this point at all. Or, y'know, just make a few more comments about how everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. Either will work, apparently.

Darnam, you did very well up to this point. But this is the point where it went over the top.

 

I understand your points. And I understand your frustration. There was avoidance of what you were trying to say I feel.

Personally I agree with you. This is one of the many points Amaran defendants avoid IMO. But you got to take a step back brother. Not everyone will agree with us.

 

Others down voted you, and the admins locked this topic up cause we let incivility have its way. I'd like you to continue posting, cause you're passionate dude; so take a pinch of Copper. A big Breath. And draw Aon Omi. Talk to you later dude.

[Chaos]

I would like everyone to not focus on the uncivil actions that occurred (except for the forthcoming apologies that will happen soon). Instead, let's actually talk Amaram, guys.

[QuantumHarmonix]

Amaram reminds me of the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I want him to be held responsible for his betrayal, but I also want to know why he felt it necessary. I suppose there could be extenuating circumstances, but they would have to be doozies to make him even slightly less culpable. 

[Aether]

Amaram reminds me of the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I want him to be held responsible for his betrayal, but I also want to know why he felt it necessary. I suppose there could be extenuating circumstances, but they would have to be doozies to make him even slightly less culpable. 

I more or less agree with this statement. As stated before, what Amaram did was horrible, but circumstantial evidence suggest that he might have (or at least feel like he had) been forced to do it. While this still does not make what he did OK, I am just to not out-right lynch him before we get more information on it.

[Looter]

Amaram reminds me of the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I want him to be held responsible for his betrayal, but I also want to know why he felt it necessary. I suppose there could be extenuating circumstances, but they would have to be doozies to make him even slightly less culpable. 

  To be honest I totally want him to have a ton of good reasons, and make more choices based on them.  Then repeating the cycle over and over again so that there is the awesome bad dude that you can see making tough choices that he feels should be made only because we know the entirety of the situation we watch him fall farther and farther from the good guy he probably once was to a really dark character that we can empathize with but still hate because of his choices. 

 

Watching a character from afar fall from grace at the same time as watch another rise is one of those good story telling elements that highlights the decisions themselves.  After all it is boring to watch a mary sue always make timely and good choices while the bad guy just makes all the evil and bad ones.  Look at Mike Stackpole's writing.  His bad guys are so stupid and bad that his mary sue heroes suck.

 

It is always better to beat a bunch of bad asses that did everything seemingly right than to beat a bunch of losers that can't help but shoot themselves in the foot at every given opportunity.

 

So I have faith that Amaram made a fully informed choice and feels terrible about it.  I also know it was the wrong choice and he is a bad dude for making it.  Thus I totally want him to fall.  Just not right away and as simply as the six fingered man did to Enigo Montoya.

[Iarvos]

Look at Mike Stackpole's writing.  His bad guys are so stupid and bad that his mary sue heroes suck.

 

Have you read Talion? I think it was his first novel, and while it has it's flaws it actually has interesting villains/anti-villians, and an interesting plot that's decently executed. That said, I haven't read much of his later stuff, it sadly didn't seem to follow up on the promise of Talion.

[Looter]

Yeah actually it is because of that book I tried to read many of his others. He is a good technical writer but his characters often are terribly limited in depth and unless they are jedi or heroic princes in gary stu cookie cutouts they are moronic moustache twisting bad guys.

[Chlehrma]

Amaram reminds me of the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I want him to be held responsible for his betrayal, but I also want to know why he felt it necessary. I suppose there could be extenuating circumstances, but they would have to be doozies to make him even slightly less culpable.

What I want to see is an Amaram PoV that shows the hours long debate between him and his advisors (Especially, Restares who has his own agenda and was one of the two people Galivar thought would try to kill him) regarding taking the shards. I do not think Amaram was going to take the shards prior to this.

A great many readers condemned him for his actions--and yes, they are deplorable--but I want to see what got him to that point and I want to know why obtaining the shards was so important that he take the steps he did. He seemed like a fairly honorable person, was a friend of Galivar, and is a friend of Dalinar--both which speak well of him though I will admit Dalinar is not the most discerning person when it comes to picking out his friends as Sadeas proved. I do not think he took the shards just because of their value.

I want to see him redeemed...though it would be funny if he redeems himself with Kaladin, then Moash kills him for revenge.

[Glaring at the Survivor]

I want blood...

And so, I'm sure, does Kaladin.

But seriously, I hate Amaram about as much as Kaladin does...

Edited February 2, 2014 by Stroniax

[QuantumHarmonix]

I want to see him redeemed...though it would be funny if he redeems himself with Kaladin, then Moash kills him for revenge.

Moash and Kaladin both wanting revenge on Amaram would be an interesting twist. I'm really looking forward to finding out how Kaladin deals with Amaram, since it just doesn't seem like he is going to get the revenge he deserves. 

[Fenris]

I think Kaladin will need to let go of his hatred towards Amaram, as part of his growth as a leader. I think his hatred is partly a selfdefence mechanism, something that overshadows his guilt at leading his squad to their deaths. The guilt was too much to deal with for Kaladin, so he buried it in hatred for Amaram, and lighteyes in general. Understandable, but not very constructive (or honorable).

Kaladin the Racist must die, so that Kaladin the Radiant can live. He must learn not to let grief, hatred, or guilt, distract him from doing his job.

Amaram will be the one that "teaches" Kaladin this lesson, I think. I can't wait to see how it will happen (or not, if I'm wrong)

This is why I don't have any negative feelings towards Amaram. I certainly don't think of him as a bad person. IMHO we haven't seen any bad people yet. Not even Sadeas is bad. Dalinar explains his actions to Elkohar as; "A very Alethi thing to do". I look forward to the bad guys showing up..

[Natans]

I think Kaladin will need to let go of his hatred towards Amaram, as part of his growth as a leader. I think his hatred is partly a selfdefence mechanism, something that overshadows his guilt at leading his squad to their deaths. The guilt was too much to deal with for Kaladin, so he buried it in hatred for Amaram, and lighteyes in general. Understandable, but not very constructive (or honorable).

Kaladin the Racist must die, so that Kaladin the Radiant can live. He must learn not to let grief, hatred, or guilt, distract him from doing his job.

Amaram will be the one that "teaches" Kaladin this lesson, I think. I can't wait to see how it will happen (or not, if I'm wrong)

This is why I don't have any negative feelings towards Amaram. I certainly don't think of him as a bad person. IMHO we haven't seen any bad people yet. Not even Sadeas is bad. Dalinar explains his actions to Elkohar as; "A very Alethi thing to do". I look forward to the bad guys showing up..

 

 Yes orrrrr he could kill Amaram and forgive all the others lighteyes, it's just one lighteye nobody would miss just one lighteye =)

 

Be welcomed take this upvote for breaking the shella nd begin posting =)

Edited February 2, 2014 by Natans

[eloiv]

I believe that judging Amaram by earth standars is not right.Judging him by Alethi standars, he did what most others lighteyes or darkeyes would do if given the chance:an immoral act masked behind a pretense of false honor and higher reasons.But if Kaladin seeks revenge he risks not only his and the other bridgemen position, but also Dalinar's work of truly uniting Alethkar, by creating trouble with a possible strong ally of his.The time to judge Amaram will come, but now is not the right time.

[ShadowsFell]

Since revenge doesn't necessarily preclude redemption, I'm going to say "yes" to the question of "revenge or redemption".

I can foresee the possibility that Dalinar thinks his friend Amaram the Hero can help him out by founding the KR again, but gets his position usurped by Kaladin the Awesome.

If I were Kaladin, I would take a lot of satisfaction from showing up Amaram in that manner. I think Amaram could also do a lot of good by helping Dalinar, maybe even giving up his Shards.

[Lorna]

*Spoilers ahead*

 

Though Kaladin has dertermined to eventually let Dalinar know of his surgebinding abilities, I think Amram's presence will make Kaladin more reluctant than ever to reveal what he can do.

 

 

“Everything I’ve ever had, Teft,” Kaladin whispered, “the lighteyes have taken from me. My family, my brother, my friends. More. More than you can imagine. They see what I have, and they take it.” He held up his hand, and could faintly make out a few glowing wisps trailing from his skin, since he knew what to look for. “They’ll take it. If they can find out what I do, they’ll take it.”

 

WoR ch 2

 

     Amram has already robbed him of people he loved, his freedom, and his shards. Kaladin has every reason not to trust the man, and to distrust Dalinar by extension after this:

 

 

He finally stumbled to a stop outside the short set of steps into Dalinar’s bunkered complex of stone buildings. There, standing in front, the Blackthorn clasped hands with a tall man.

Square-faced and dignified, the newcomer wore a pristine uniform. He laughed, then embraced Dalinar. “Old friend,” he said. “It’s been too long.”

“Too long by far,” Dalinar agreed. “I’m glad you finally made your way here, after years of promises. I heard you’ve even found yourself a Shardblade!”

“Yes,” the newcomer said, pulling back and holding his hand to the side. “Taken from an assassin who dared try to kill me on the field of battle.”

 

The Blade appeared. Kaladin stared at the silvery weapon. Etched along its length, the Blade was shaped to look like flames in motion, and to Kaladin it seemed that the weapon was stained red. Names flooded his mind: Dallet, Coreb, Reesh… a squad before time, from another life. Men Kaladin had loved.

 

He looked up and forced himself to see the face of the newcomer. A man Kaladin hated, hated beyond any other. A man he had once worshipped.

Highlord Amaram. The man who had stolen Kaladin’s Shardblade, branded his forehead, and sold him into slavery.

 

WoR ch 12

 

Kaladin's life somehow keeps getting more complicated.

[vikorr]

Did anyone else notice Amaram's explanation for the shardblade?

 

“Yes,” the newcomer said, pulling back and holding his hand to the side. “Taken from an assassin who dared try to kill me on the field of battle.”

 

 

Taken - it was certainly taken (the important missing bit is 'by whom', and then how Amaram took it for himself)

 

From an assassin - not too many would bother to quibble with the description

 

Who dared try to kill him on the field of battle - also true...despite the fact is sounds like 'in battle...to the letter it is true.

 

Technically, that is correct...missing important detail...but still true.

 

Cryptics would love him.

[skaa]

Eh... this is an interesting brainstorm, and I laud you for thinking so far outside the box. I'm certainly not sold on it as a whole, but I'm going to think about it more.

 

My one question: So he kills all the spearmen, because he thinks they MIGHT also be Surgebinders simply by proximity to Kaladin... yet he lets Kaladin, the one person he really suspects of being a Surgebinder, live? Seems like a hole in the logic.

 

Yeah, I kinda knew that was the problem with that kind of reasoning even as I typed it out, but I don't think Amaram could kill Kaladin at that point after owing his life to him, even if he did think Surgebinders cause Desolations. Kaladin's crew, though, was nothing to Amaram. Best to let one Windrunner (who doesn't know he's a Windrunner) live in slavery where he won't get opportunities for Leading and Protecting, than to allow him to carry on leading his crew, who might attract Nahel bonds themselves (if they haven't already).

 

But I guess it is simpler to just assume Amaram really wanted that Shardblade for his own.

Edited February 3, 2014 by skaa

[Meamzed]

Did anyone else notice Amaram's explanation for the shardblade?

 

 

Taken - it was certainly taken (the important missing bit is 'by whom', and then how Amaram took it for himself)

 

From an assassin - not too many would bother to quibble with the description

 

Who dared try to kill him on the field of battle - also true...despite the fact is sounds like 'in battle...to the letter it is true.

 

Technically, that is correct...missing important detail...but still true.

 

Cryptics would love him.

Or Aes sedai

 

Anyway, isn't Amaram supposed to be one of Sadeas's men? Afaik, he fought against Vedans (?) who were encroaching on Sadeas's(?) territory…. Why is one of Sadeas's men in contact with Dalinar…. How did they get to know act other… Has Amaram talked with Sadeas prior to his meeting with Dalinar?

[Oudeis]

@Treb: I am sorry. I needlessly escalated our disagreement. I was aggressive and unreasonable. I should have accepted your apology with grace. I only hope your feelings on "men who have done terrible things, regret them, and deserve redemption" extends from Amaram to my humble self.

 

@Feather: I am sorry. I did not show you the respect you were due. It was wrong of me to spead to a moderator as I did. Please forgive me.

[treblkickd]

@Treb: I am sorry. I needlessly escalated our disagreement. I was aggressive and unreasonable. I should have accepted your apology with grace. I only hope your feelings on "men who have done terrible things, regret them, and deserve redemption" extends from Amaram to my humble self.

 

 

It does, so thanks and no worries. I'm sorry I got under your skin - that certainly wasn't my intention.

[Yalb]

Right, first post, time to verse a controversial opinion;please correct me if i've made a mistake or a misquote somewhere

 

Amaram, in greed, killed 4 innocent men, and condemned another to a life of slavery; to obtain the ultimate prize; shard blade and plate.

Amaram held council(might be wrong spelling, forgive my barbarism) to Gavilar, in some secret matter. Amaram knows of the void bringers. He said that he bears burdens that Kaladin cannot understand, and he appears to show real remorse and sadness.

 

It is a war. In war, hard choices must be made. Amaram is trained in the blade and plate. Empty rationalizing or not, I can understand why he killed the last of Kaladins squad. I don't condone what he did, be it in greed or a hidden motive we may not know. I really feel for Kaladin; I found Kaladins memories extremely painful to read (i still skip them when listening to the audiobook). 

 

Roshar isn't black and white… a good man can perform evil acts, and a evil man can be redeemed, to a level. I don't think writing Amaram off because some of his actions were evil. I think he still has a role to play.

 

Again, sorry if my post isn't great, I'm not feeling great atm, and can't seem to successfully proofread it >.<

 

As Kaladin said " You could have just storming asked for the shards".  He took them in this way to hide his embarasment. It had nothing to do with him being selfless. These actions cannot be justified! If you think about his motivations, he really could have took them and said 'This is best for everyone" and left them alive. Which they would have slandered his name everywhere. He would have made a choice to still put the good of others above the good of one. That I could forgive and it wouldnt bother me in the long run. But what he actually did was kill 4 dark eyes and brand another one a slave. To cover the fact that he TOOK them away from a dark eyes. The murders and betrayal was all to cover up his so called honor. This is unforgivable and he is no better then Sadeas in my eyes!

Edited February 4, 2014 by Yalb

[Aether]

As Kaladin said " You could have just storming asked for the shards".  He took them in this way to hide his embarasment. It had nothing to do with him being selfless. These actions cannot be justified! If you think about his motivations, he really could have took them and said 'This is best for everyone" and left them alive. Which they would have slandered his name everywhere. He would have made a choice to still put the good of others above the good of one. That I could forgive and it wouldnt bother me in the long run. But what he actually did was kill 4 dark eyes and brand another one a slave. To cover the fact that he TOOK them away from a dark eyes. The murders and betrayal was all to cover up his so called honor. This is unforgivable and he is no better then Sadeas in my eyes!

You make a very good point. The difference between him and Sadeas, though, is that there still seems to have been a tiny little shred of reticence and guilt left in him. While what he did is by all definitions despicable, there could still be hope for him yet. 

[Mr Horrible]

I believe that judging Amaram by earth standars is not right.Judging him by Alethi standars, he did what most others lighteyes or darkeyes would do if given the chance:an immoral act masked behind a pretense of false honor and higher reasons.But if Kaladin seeks revenge he risks not only his and the other bridgemen position, but also Dalinar's work of truly uniting Alethkar, by creating trouble with a possible strong ally of his.The time to judge Amaram will come, but now is not the right time.

 

Amaram went against both the Alethi Codes of War and the shared radiant ideal, both of which seem to be set up as in-universe guides to morality. I'm not entirely sure what the consequences for Amaram would be for killing Kaladin's squad and appropriating the shards for himself as darkeyes seem to be quite expendable on the whole, but I imagine Dalinar at least would disavow him.

[EmanEmal]

I would like to say that I believe that Amaram had a very good reason for stealing the shards in the way he did. You see Amaram is involved with attempts to stop the coming desolation and prepare for the voidbringers. I believe that he probably ended up that way because of his friendship with Gavilar way back in the day, he was probably involved somewhat in whatever the king was planning ended up on the inside and now things have come to light and he feels like it is his job to somehow save the world. For reference he is under the same pressure that Jasnah is suffering from in the early sneak peeks of Words of Radiance, accept for him it is actually worse. You see Amaram is just a regular guy, he has no shard blade, he has no surge binding, or crazy powers or anything, and he has ended up as the enemy of all sorts of mythical monsters and secret societies. Six years ago this crazy shin guy barges in and kills his king and close friend and Amaram couldn’t do anything about it, just now he gets attacked by a enemy shardbearer and barely survives. He couldn’t have done anything against that shardbearer, he just gets pinned underneath his horse. So no he didn’t take that shard blade out of greed, or because he wanted prestage, or because he wanted wealth, or even for the good of Alethekar . He took that shardblade so that when the assassin in white comes to throw him off a building he has something to fight back with.

 

Or at least that’s what I think.

 

However regardless of his motivations the guy betrayed Kaladin and murdered the men who just saved his life and I want to see him pay for that. I mean he doesn't have to die or whatever but if the guy just walks away from this, and Kaladin lets him, it would be terrible.

So I am on the revenge boat.