Amaram: Redemption or Revenge

[Meamzed]

Just a question…. If something like Amaram's murders happened in a George R.R. Martin book, would we bat en eyelid ?

 

 

I personally think that the interactions between Kaladin and Amaram will be very interesting, to say the least. I hope Kaladin doesn't do something stupid like attack Amaram, but I doubt he'll actually tell Dalinar straight off why he hates Amaram… that'll be some uncomfortable scenes . Should be interesting no matter the ending… Will Dalinar believe Kaladin if he does speak up… what would he do/say to Amaram….

Edited January 31, 2014 by Meamzed

[Lorna]

@cheese ninja

The more I think about that quote, the more I think it is Dalinar that raises his hand and he does so to break up the fight between Kaladin and Amaram.

 

I've thought about this too. I had that epigraph on my mind while rereading parts of TWoK and came across a place where Kal is thinking about how the stormlight rages within and we get something like "...Kaladin was the storm." (here I wish I had the ebook version to search an reference more easily)

 

Then I reread the epigraph and thought, Huh, so maybe its from Dalinar.

 

I could realy be from anyone though, and I'm confident in Sanderson's ability to make us love or hate a character at his will and pull off a compelling turn of events in any case.

[Aether he/him]

Just a question…. If something like Amaram's murders happened in a George R.R. Martin book, would we bat en eyelid  ?

One might not question it in the same way, but there would still be a lot of screaming.

 

I personally think that the interactions between Kaladin and Amaram will be very interesting, to say the least. I hope Kaladin doesn't do something stupid like attack Amaram, but I doubt he'll actually tell Dalinar straight off why he hates Amaram… that'll be some uncomfortable scenes  . Should be interesting no matter the ending… Will Dalinar believe Kaladin if he does speak up… what would he do/say to Amaram….

I think a proper rap-battle should be able square things up. At the very least let them join in on Shallan and Wit's battle of wit.

[hoser he/him]

There are signs that suggest Kaladin might have already been surgebinding at this point, ...

 

I wasn't really making the argument that he should be judged on his own justification for what he did, but that it should be viewed in the context of the SA universe, ..

 

I am not, however, (currently) claiming that what he did was justified, but that I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until we learn more about his motivation and future plans.

I was not saying that he should have recognized that Kaladin was a budding surgebinder, but he is obviously way too ignorant to be making the judgements he makes.  From an in-world utilitarian POV, he could have deprived the anti-voidbringer forces of a vital champion.  

 

I don't think any more information would affect how he is judged, although subsequent actions might.  Basically, IMO, choosing the framework determines the judgement.

• From an in-world utilitarian POV - The out-of-world known meta outcome determines that he will pass
• from his subjective POV - auto-pass
• by actions - guilty of first degree murder, human trafficking, assault (branding) and grand larceny - He can be as heroic as he wants from here on out, but he has still earned the highest punishment available.  If he ever gets any integrity, he will submit himself to it voluntarily.

I think my preference is obvious, but that doesn't make it right.  I want everybody to enjoy the story in a way that works for them. 

 

I am really, really looking forward to the Amaram and Kaladin interaction.

This!  This!

[Oudeis he/him]

I think what ultimately condemns Amaram in the eyes of so many, including my own, is that he could have just asked, as Kaladin told him. In the end though, he cared too much about his own reputation, and had to prevent people from talking, which is what separates him from the likes of say, Dalinar, who care more about actual honor, and staying true to themselves, rather than the appearance thereof.

 

This, this, a thousand times this, welcome to the forums.

 

As I am now bringing up for the third or fourth time, Amaram was not faced with two choices. Amaram could have had the Shards, and left the people alive. All the supposed benefits to civilization in his mind would have happened exactly that way. He kill them for two reasons. First, he just assumed they were awful, awful people who would stir up trouble. Second, if they were those awful people... what exactly would happen? The Shard Police would have shown up and made him give them back? No. It would have been bad for his reputation, there was no legitimate risk of anything worse than that.

 

This is what it comes down to. He had the option to take all the good stuff that came from him stealing the Shards, and he didn't have to kill to do it; killing the people gained the world nothing but Amaram's own stellar reputation. This is why he's a repugnant person.

 

Moogle and... that other name, the one that starts with a t and has all the consonants and I can't pronounce it. You keep saying your same points over and over again, and neither of you have addressed this point. Would you mind? How does this fit into your theory that Amaram's a carebear with the tummy-tat of Mother Theresa?

[Aether he/him]

I was not saying that he should have recognized that Kaladin was a budding surgebinder, but he is obviously way too ignorant to be making the judgements he makes.  From an in-world utilitarian POV, he could have deprived the anti-voidbringer forces of a vital champion.

If you agree that Amaram should not be expected to know that Kaladin was a potential Surgebinder, then I fail to see how his reasoning would fall short of being utilitarian. His decision was likely coloured by his own selfishness, but that aside, his proclaimed reasoning was that a respected Brightlord - familiar with both Plate and Blade - would be able to do more good with the shards than a seemingly capable but trivial Darkeyes. Even if the shards would have made Kaladin a Lighteyes, he would still not have the position, nor the knowledge, to make proper use of them - at least to Amaram's knowledge. A utilitarian point of view would be to go for the method that would likely provide te greatest possible outcome to the greatest amount of people. That Kaladin later turned out to be a Knight Radiant in-making would only in hindsight show that Amaram's decision might actually have ended up giving a worse outcome. Especially since Amaram likely could not possibly have known that Surgebinding was returning.

 

I don't think any more information would affect how he is judged, although subsequent actions might.  Basically, IMO, choosing the framework determines the judgement.

• From an in-world utilitarian POV - The out-of-world known meta outcome determines that he will pass.

I do not entirely get what you mean with "the out-of-world known meta".

[treblkickd he/him]

This, this, a thousand times this, welcome to the forums.

 

As I am now bringing up for the third or fourth time, Amaram was not faced with two choices. Amaram could have had the Shards, and left the people alive. All the supposed benefits to civilization in his mind would have happened exactly that way. He kill them for two reasons. First, he just assumed they were awful, awful people who would stir up trouble. Second, if they were those awful people... what exactly would happen? The Shard Police would have shown up and made him give them back? No. It would have been bad for his reputation, there was no legitimate risk of anything worse than that.

 

This is what it comes down to. He had the option to take all the good stuff that came from him stealing the Shards, and he didn't have to kill to do it; killing the people gained the world nothing but Amaram's own stellar reputation. This is why he's a repugnant person.

 

Moogle and... that other name, the one that starts with a t and has all the consonants and I can't pronounce it. You keep saying your same points over and over again, and neither of you have addressed this point. Would you mind? How does this fit into your theory that Amaram's a carebear with the tummy-tat of Mother Theresa?

 

 

1) I thought that WoK made pretty clear that perception would not have allowed for Kaladin to give Amaram the shards and go on his merry way - the trouble being that no one would have believed that this is what really happened. The response would have been, "Oh, right, the darkeyes just gave you the shards? Riiiiiight", with the common assumption being that Amaram stole them. That's the kind of rumor that could throw a brightlord's entire army into revolt, and a hunk of the kingdom into chaos. Kaladin's choice to refuse the shards is so contrary to what any normal dark eyes solider would have done that it threw everyone for a loop. And that's how Kaladin got Syl, and that's how we get to enjoy reading about them both. But also important is that Kaladin's choice is so contrary that it's basically impossible for anyone, Amaram, Restares, etc included, to believe that he really means it. It's like someone winning the lottery and then saying, "Nah, I don't want the money." It's more than reasonable to assume that this person will, at some point, look back and regret that decision.

 

2) I certainly never said that Amaram was a hero, or even an edgy/tatooed carebear. No one is saying he necessarily made the right, or best choice. He made a bad choice, and did a bad thing, which people do. In Amaram's case I don't think it requires an excessive amount of empathy to understand the circumstances that drove him to make a bad choice.

 

3) #2 above does not condemn Amaram as a bad person. I actually think that Amaram is nicely positioned to start down the path to become a Knight Radiant precisely because he made a bad decision that may have broken him a little. Imagine you've got a guy, Amaram, who's pretty decent - an honorable enough brightlord ("one of the good ones") - but he was never really faced with a hard decision before. Then when faced with a tough choice, he makes a the wrong call and that breaks him a little. "Cracks in the soul", isn't that the expression in the dust jacket cover?

 

4) I am turned off by all of the bloodthirsty Amaram revenge fantasies. As if anything other than his head on a pike would be a travesty of justice. What we have in Amaram is a minor character with the potential for a complex and fun plot arc. I will very easily admit that I don't limit myself to rooting for the Mary Sue characters.

 

edit: spelling

Edited January 31, 2014 by treblkickd

[Oudeis he/him]

That's the kind of rumor that could throw a brightlord's entire army into revolt, and a hunk of the kingdom into chaos.

That is a ridiculous, over-the-top assumption that you cannot possibly back up or expect us all to believe. If an army is so fractious that one single rumor had a legitimate chance of tearing it to shreds, preventing one single rumor is not going to keep it afloat.

You have yet again ignored the single point I keep asking you to address. Will you at least admit that you're simply going to ignore it?

Edited January 31, 2014 by Darnam

[treblkickd he/him]

This is a preposterous, over-the-top assumption, which continues to ignore the point I asked you to address. I assume, then, that you have no answer to it? That being given three chances to respond, you have yet again chosen to just make personal attacks, claiming moral superiority, that you're "better" than the rest of us because you like Amaram, and the only possible reason someone might dislike him is because he's not a Mary Sue.

And for the record, if you'd bothered to read my posts, you'd've seen that I'm not calling for Amaram's head. I suspect that Kaladin will be faced with the opportunity to let Amaram die (which would be justice) or save him, and will choose to risk his life to save him, because honor isn't easy.

Whatever. You're ignoring my points that you can't argue against, and you're throwing around insults to everyone who disagrees with you.

 

I'm sorry you don't like how I reply to your points, but that's not the same as me ignoring them.

 

I really don't think it's an over the top assumption - it's stated multiple times in WoK that the common dream for a dark eyes soldier to claim a shard and move up in the world. You don't think that undermining hope would cause unrest? 

 

I'm not referring to your posts and yours alone, and I never said you were calling for Amaram's head (plenty of posts on this and other threads have, though). My posts on this thread aren't about you, so maybe don't take the fact that I disagree with you so personally? I think you're confusing my disagreeing with you as my insulting you. 

[The Count he/him]

WOW.. I don't know whether to apologise or cheer for starting such a contentious thread...

Clearly people have very strong opinions on this matter.

For me, I think that we have to view Amaram's actions through the lens of in world perception. I do not think that real world moral considerations are entirely relevant.

Partially they are, but cultural and sociological experience on Roshar will necessarily change the moral and ethical norms, and that is before you include the powerful embodiment / personification of Honor into the mix.

The book very clearly gives indication of what is the right way to act to be Honorable (Journey before Destination and all that).

The intention is clearly to paint Amaram as being dishonourable in his actions. We are intended, I believe, to sympathise with Kaladin's hatred of Amaram (and by extension all Lighteyes).

In Word of Radiance this is going to be used to create conflict by putting Kaladin in a position of seeing the focus of his predjudice and hatred next to his burgeoning respect for Dalinar.

I believe this is supposed to give a literal interpretation of Kaladin's internal struggle of Honor vs Vengeance.

Whether Amaram ultimately becomes more honourable is unknown.

IN this light, both Darnam and treblkickd are both correct.

Amaram's actions are entirely unjustified (he killed to protect his reputation above every other consideration, the burden of responsibility, to me, seemed like a self justification more than a real reason).

BUT, his possession of the Shards may have ultimately helped the 'good' cause (depending of what he was doing for the last year). His actions may also open the way for him to become a Radiant if he regrets his actions and comes round to Dalinar's way of thinking.

I think we all agree that Kaldin's relationship with Amaram and Dalinar in WoR is going to prove crucial in Kaladin's development as a character.

Also: Can we please try and keep civil on the boards. It is good that people are passionate about the issue but it is still only a story.

Edited January 31, 2014 by The Count

[Oudeis he/him]

I'm sorry you don't like how I reply to your points, but that's not the same as me ignoring them.

So you're still claiming that you've responded, in any way, to my actual point? Let's review.

 

This is what it comes down to. He had the option to take all the good stuff that came from him stealing the Shards, and he didn't have to kill to do it; killing the people gained the world nothing but Amaram's own stellar reputation. This is why he's a repugnant person.

 

Please, feel free to show me the place where you discussed this point at all. Or, y'know, just make a few more comments about how everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. Either will work, apparently.

[Iarvos]

I really don't think it's an over the top assumption - it's stated multiple times in WoK that the common dream for a dark eyes soldier to claim a shard and move up in the world. You don't think that undermining hope would cause unrest?

Wouldn't allegations of murdering and enslaving dark eyes in order to steal shards be much more likely to cause unrest or other problems? In my eyes that is the one of largest weakness in a utilitarian justification for Amaram's actions. Note that he didn't kill all the witnesses, and it's unlikely that all the witnesses had demonstrated more loyalty to him than Kaladin had, so Amaram is opening himself up to rumors started by his men. Edited January 31, 2014 by Iarvos

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Darnam, The Count is right. Your posts here are becoming increasingly impolite and that needs to stop please. I'm sorry you feel you are being ignored, though I can see that treblkickd seems to be trying to respond to you, despite your continued comments against him. The other members of the forum do not owe you a response to the posts that you make, and speaking unkindly to them over the issue is not appropriate. Demanding responses to your posts, or even beyond that, demanding specific kinds of responses to your posts is very rude.

 

You are allowed to disagree with other forum members, but conversation needs to remain civil, please.

[skaa he/him]

Here's a thought: What if Amaram is one of those people who, like Darkness, think that Nahel bonds are extremely bad and that they hasten the coming of a Desolation?

 

Let us suppose that Kaladin was unconsciously using Surgebinding in his battle with the Shardbearer. What if Amaram detected that? Imagine that scenario...

 

Amaram acknowledged that Kaladin saved his life, but that was nothing compared to the threat of the apocalypse. But then, when Kaladin rejected the Plate and Blade, Amaram found a possible way out.

 

 

"Why?" Amaram said. "Why did you reject it? I have to know."

 

"I don't want it, sir."

 

"Yes, but why?"

 

 

Think about it. Why did he insist on knowing Kaladin's reason? What if he knew that people who got their Surgebinding powers from Honorblades had trouble Surgebinding while wearing Shardplate?

 

Szeth didn't own a set of Plate himself, and didn't care to. His Lashings interfered with the gemstones that powered Shardplate, and he had to choose one or the other.

 

If Kaladin was refusing his prize because had an Honorblade, then he wasn't bonded to a spren and he'd be safe.

 

But if he didn't have an Honorblade...

 

"This is for my men," Amaram said ... "You can't begin to understand the weights I carry, spearman." ... "I can't worry about the lives of a few darkeyed spearmen when thousands of people may be saved by my decision."

 

Amaram might have been honestly concerned about the safety of his loved ones, his men, and the whole of Roshar. He would have wondered if any of Kaladin's men were budding Surgebinders as well. In his point of view, every one of those spearmen could be potential timebombs.

 

So he decided to kill them. Besides, if Kaladin did have an Honorblade, he'd have summoned it before any of his men could get hurt.

 

But he didn't.

 

The deed was done, yet Kaladin did not summon anything, nor did he even Surgebind, to save his men. Obviously he was not yet aware of his powers. That was a good thing.

 

"For saving my life, I spare yours... You are being discharged as a deserter and branded as a slave. But you are spared death by my mercy."

 

Amaram's honor could not allow him to kill the man who saved his life. But perhaps if the Surgebinder was enslaved instead, his honor taken, his spirit crushed, he might lose the necessary Attributes required by his Nahel bond, and he would never become one of those evil Knights Radiant. Roshar would be spared.

 

***

 

Note that everything above is just speculation. I don't think Kaladin should forgive Amaram so easily even if he really thought he was being honorable at the time.

Edited January 31, 2014 by skaa

[The Count he/him]

Whoa! Skaa, I had not considered that at all....

 

Crazy theory ahoy!

 

Darkness / Nalan = Restares

 

 

Gasp!!!!!!!!!

[treblkickd he/him]

Wouldn't allegations of murdering and enslaving dark eyes in order to steal shards be much more likely to cause unrest or other problems? In my eyes that is the one of largest weakness in a utilitarian justification for Amaram's actions. Note that he didn't kill all the witnesses, and it's unlikely that all the witnesses had demonstrated more loyalty to him than Kaladin had, so Amaram is opening himself up to rumors started by his men.

 

I agree that it would cause a riot if all the dark eyes soldiers knew that this happened, but the chances of such a rumor getting out are awfully small. Given a scenario where a brightlord has a new set of shards and someone trying to spread a rumor that this brighlord took the shards from a dark eyes who killed the shard bearer, they'd have to overcome the hurdle of convincing people that a dark eyes did in fact kill a shard bearer, which happens almost never. It much easier to believe that a brightlord and his retinue took down a shard bearer. It's much harder in that scenario to buy into a dark eyes spearman killing a shard bearer. If, on the other hand, a brightlord admits that a dark eyes took down a shard bearer and then claims the dark eyes just *gave* him the shards, then I think the hardest-to-believe part of that story very quickly becomes the part about giving the shards away and the brightlord is likely to be called a big fat liar.

[Shadow Guardian he/him]

I agree that it would cause a riot if all the dark eyes soldiers knew that this happened, but the chances of such a rumor getting out are awfully small. Given a scenario where a brightlord has a new set of shards and someone trying to spread a rumor that this brighlord took the shards from a dark eyes who killed the shard bearer, they'd have to overcome the hurdle of convincing people that a dark eyes did in fact kill a shard bearer, which happens almost never. It much easier to believe that a brightlord and his retinue took down a shard bearer. It's much harder in that scenario to buy into a dark eyes spearman killing a shard bearer. If, on the other hand, a brightlord admits that a dark eyes took down a shard bearer and then claims the dark eyes just *gave* him the shards, then I think the hardest-to-believe part of that story very quickly becomes the part about giving the shards away and the brightlord is likely to be called a big fat liar.

 

I think the most obvious alternative would be for Kaladin to publicly give him the shards. Some people would still question, but by no means do I think it would result in anything more than rumors, let alone open rebellion. Again, Amaram might be questioned, and his reputation may not be the absolutely flawless thing that he wants, but I think it would have the far more honorable route to take. Again, the difference between actual honor to oneself, and perceived honor by others.

[Mr Horrible]

@Skaa; the only problem I have with your conjecture is that there's utterly nothing directly supporting it, which is quite a big problem ;P.

 

As far as Amaram goes it should be clear to everyone that he is unfit for leadership when judged by the in-universe morality system (breaking 2 Alethi codes and the 1st KR ideal). I think the fact that he killed innocents really tips this over the edge of redeemability, although he'll likely be an anti-villain based on his words to Dalinar.

[JesseQ]

You know Darnam, I sort of understand your frustration and actually agree with your premise but you’re not going to bludgeon your beliefs or feelings onto someone. I don’t really feel your passion regarding this topic deserved the down vote so I went ahead and cancelled that out but you should probably consider a different tactic for getting your point across.

 

Now, since we agree I will defend our point of view. I think there is a tendency in our society to try to assign intellectual brilliance or philosophical innovation to ideas that are contrary to commonsense; as though commonsense were a device only for lowly simpletons. So an argument is made that yeah sure Amaram slaughtered defenseless men who had just helped prevent him from being slaughtered (while defenseless) then sold their squad leader into slavery… but let’s dig deeper before we make a final judgment as to his character. We don’t really know his motives so it might be all good… We may later be saying good call Amaram; good that you killed off those inconsequential darkeyes. Their culture and society may resolve to view his choice to cut them down as an honorable thing to do; it is a militaristic society after all.

 

The problem I find with these types of philosophical meanderings is that they seem to be used as a consequence-free tool to downplay, excuse or even justify atrocities. I could probably write an essay on the greatness, the unique boldness and brilliance of Taravangian for his efforts and his research tactics. Hell, I could probably make a list of coherent arguments as to why he should have only used children for his experiments and do so in a way that suggests draining the life from those children (as opposed to random people off the street) is actually the morally correct course of action in their world. It would be complete nonsense (not to mention sadistic) but I could certainly frame it in a way that made it sound like I really believed it and that those who weren’t on board were incapable of thinking critically; refusing to see beyond their rigid perception of what is right versus wrong.

 

You know, in the end there may be a greater good but the argument that arriving at that greater good could only be achieved through the betrayal and slaughter of your subordinates (to whom you owe your life) is absurd to me. The argument that his perceptions justify his actions is equally absurd. To me some of you are attempting to complicate black and white issues for the sake of arguing your brand of philosophy; which, frankly is a little weak despite its pretty packaging. Just don’t kill your unarmed subordinates after they save your life and we’ll be golden.

 

Do I think he is beyond redemption? I don’t know; perhaps not, but for me at this point redemption would likely involve martyrdom. Not a fan of this guy.

[Mr Horrible]

Actually there's one thing about the scene that doesn't add up to me; Amaram repeatedly offered Kaladin the Shards and it was Kaladin's unwillingness to accept them that led to the betrayal, where Amaram cited 'the greater good'. However correct me if I'm wrong, but if Kaladin accepted the shards, couldn't he just wander off and do his own thing and so that 'greater good' possibly wouldn't be accomplished in that scenario anyway?

 

It seems odd that Amaram was more than willing to go down that path.

[Looter he/him]

I agree that it would cause a riot if all the dark eyes soldiers knew that this happened, but the chances of such a rumor getting out are awfully small. Given a scenario where a brightlord has a new set of shards and someone trying to spread a rumor that this brighlord took the shards from a dark eyes who killed the shard bearer, they'd have to overcome the hurdle of convincing people that a dark eyes did in fact kill a shard bearer, which happens almost never. It much easier to believe that a brightlord and his retinue took down a shard bearer. It's much harder in that scenario to buy into a dark eyes spearman killing a shard bearer. If, on the other hand, a brightlord admits that a dark eyes took down a shard bearer and then claims the dark eyes just *gave* him the shards, then I think the hardest-to-believe part of that story very quickly becomes the part about giving the shards away and the brightlord is likely to be called a big fat liar.

Well as far as rumors go I think it would be very easy to make a rumor that Amaram stole the shards. He came away from the fight with broken legs and living men that returned with him died in camp or dissappeared and were called traitors. If even one ghostblood spy was near they could make a rumor that is close to the truth and start it where Amaram could not respond swiftly thus destabilizing a whole region.

Because Amaram is such a selfish fool that he didn't even see how a rumor that lighteyes killing darkeyes for their shards could cause the darkeyes that make up a vast majority of the population to decide they would rather risk fighting against the lighteyes than FOR the lighteyes.

Revolutions are caused by rumors such as this. Hell the French revolution had the rumor of Marie Antoinette just telling aomeone that the starving poor should eat cake.

That doesn't even cover his reprehensible moral actions.

 

Edited for spelling done on my stupid phone.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Looter

[Oudeis he/him]

You are allowed to disagree with other forum members, but conversation needs to remain civil, please.

 

And where, exactly, is the public condemnation against him? Where is an admin stepping up to say, "You are dismissing everyone who disagrees with you with broad, insulting, blanket statements that they must be moon-struck Kaladin fans"? I did not start the insults, and I wasn't the first person to turn nasty. I first politely told him that I was offended by his insinuation, and was told, "I have the right to say what I feel, and if you choose to get offended, that is your fault." Why is he being given more leniency than I am? I was not the instigator. I wasn't the first to say something mean. Why am I being publicly punished while he is being tacitly praised? This is grossly unfair.

 

I am not "demanding" that he answer my point; I am asking him if he wants to, and pointing out in support of my own argument that I have a very good point that he's simply allowing to stand.

[Iarvos]

I agree that it would cause a riot if all the dark eyes soldiers knew that this happened, but the chances of such a rumor getting out are awfully small. Given a scenario where a brightlord has a new set of shards and someone trying to spread a rumor that this brighlord took the shards from a dark eyes who killed the shard bearer, they'd have to overcome the hurdle of convincing people that a dark eyes did in fact kill a shard bearer, which happens almost never. It much easier to believe that a brightlord and his retinue took down a shard bearer. It's much harder in that scenario to buy into a dark eyes spearman killing a shard bearer. If, on the other hand, a brightlord admits that a dark eyes took down a shard bearer and then claims the dark eyes just *gave* him the shards, then I think the hardest-to-believe part of that story very quickly becomes the part about giving the shards away and the brightlord is likely to be called a big fat liar.

 

I agree that if Amaram publicly admitted to receiving the shards from Kaladin it could complicate the situation. Yes people would question Kaladin 'giving' the shards over, but in some ways the publicity behind it would work against rumors that he'd stolen the shards as if he'd stolen the shards he want to hide it.

 

But he doesn't have to admit publicly to receiving the shards from Kaladin. Alternatively he could

 

a) be evasive (Which definately has its problems, but they are possibly surmountable)

Lie - and send Kaladin and his men elsewhere - say the shattered plains as a reward for their killing the earlier brightlord.  

c) Always wear shardplate and never talk to anyone ever again becoming an anonymous killing machine that only eats cheese and then only in extreme privacy. 

 

I think regardless of a) or , moving Kaladin and his men elsewhere would not be a bad idea - and likely would not be perceived badly by Kaladin, as he wants to go elsewhere anyways.  It could also be wise if a public announcement was made, but it would very likely be perceived by others as a sign the announcement wasn't really true. 

 

I think the most obvious alternative would be for Kaladin to publicly give him the shards. Some people would still question, but by no means do I think it would result in anything more than rumors, let alone open rebellion. Again, Amaram might be questioned, and his reputation may not be the absolutely flawless thing that he wants, but I think it would have the far more honorable route to take. Again, the difference between actual honor to oneself, and perceived honor by others.

 

I agree that it's an obvious alternative that is way better than what Amaram did. I guess Kaladin could later claim that he'd been forced to turn over the shards, but his rumor starting would probably be blunted. 

 

Well as far as rumors go I think it would be very easy to make a rumor that Amaram stole the shards. He came away from the fight with broken legs and living men that returned with him died in camp or dissappeared and were called traitors. If even one ghostblood spy was near they could make a rumor that is close to the truth and start it where Amaram could not respond swiftly thus destabilizing a whole region.

Because Amaram is such a selfish fool that he didn't even see how a rumor that lighteyes killing darkeyes for their shards could cause the darkeyes that make up a vast majority of the population to decide they would rather risk fighting against the lighteyes than FOR the lighteyes.

Revolutions are caused by rumors such as this. Hell the French revolution had the rumor of Marie Antoinette just telling aomeone that the starving poor should ea cake.

Thatt doesn't even cover his reprehensible moral actions.

 

Agreed. Any enemy of his would only have to track down Kaladin or break the loyalty of one of Amaram's close lighteyes to get the whole story, and could easily use the information to destabilize Amaram. 

[Oudeis he/him]

Here's a thought: What if Amaram is one of those people who, like Darkness, think that Nahel bonds are extremely bad and that they hasten the coming of a Desolation?

 

Eh... this is an interesting brainstorm, and I laud you for thinking so far outside the box. I'm certainly not sold on it as a whole, but I'm going to think about it more.

 

My one question: So he kills all the spearmen, because he thinks they MIGHT also be Surgebinders simply by proximity to Kaladin... yet he lets Kaladin, the one person he really suspects of being a Surgebinder, live? Seems like a hole in the logic.

 

You know Darnam, I sort of understand your frustration and actually agree with your premise but you’re not going to bludgeon your beliefs or feelings onto someone. I don’t really feel your passion regarding this topic deserved the down vote so I went ahead and cancelled that out but you should probably consider a different tactic for getting your point across.

 

You're right, and I'm sorry. I sometimes let my emotions get away from me when I've been insulted. I appreciate your gently reminder, and I will try hard to keep my cool.

 

Actually there's one thing about the scene that doesn't add up to me; Amaram repeatedly offered Kaladin the Shards and it was Kaladin's unwillingness to accept them that led to the betrayal, where Amaram cited 'the greater good'.

 

As someone pointed out, actually no, Amaram never offered him the Shards. He asked, "Why are you giving them up," he never said, "Here they are, take them."

 

Hope that helps the scene add up for you.

[Chaos he/him]

Temporarily closing this topic until I have a chance to deal with this nonsense. Expect PMs to come in the next few hours. They will not be pleasant ones.

And Darnam. You will respect the moderators of 17th Shard with equal weight as an admin. Feather is staff and that was very much a group decision. You will respect that.

This topic will be reopened by the end of the day, but it is evident that I need to close this until I can have some private words with people.