Jasnah's spren

[hoser he/him]

Just a nitpick here

Two things - first off, there is WoB that Honor was alive at the Recreance....

 

I...

1)      I see it’s already been mentioned that WoB is Tanavast was alive at the Recreance; I’m curious as to what evidence there would be that he was even dead before the breaking of the Oathpact.  Whether he liked it or not, I would assume the Heralds were always free to make the choice to no longer hold to their oaths.  I don’t see an entity named “Honor” denying his Heralds the free will necessary to hold to their oaths.  Otherwise, it’s not honor that would keep them to their oath; it would be a lack of ability to do anything else.

IIRC, Brandon has said that Honor was alive when the Heralds (9 out of 10, anyway) packed it in.  There has been a lively and unresolved debate about whether he was around until the Recreance, but no WoB that I am aware of.  If he was not foreseeing the Recreance vision, he must have been alive for it.  OTOH, one of the chapter heading quotes seems to be a Radiant wondering what happened to the "Shard of my soul."

Edited January 16, 2014 by hoser

[KiManiak he/him]

Hoser - Cool, thanks for the clarification.  I admit that I don't always check when someone claims WoB on a topic; also there is a preponderance here of opinions being stated as fact or foregone conclusion.  This is a good reminder to double-check or at least request clarification on various definitive pronouncements.

 

I do believe my point holds as to whether Tanavast was alive during the Recreance or not, though.  I don't believe the Heralds being able to choose whether/not to hold to their oaths is indicative of Honor's being alive or not.  I'm not stating it as fact; just presenting what I think is most likely given in-book evidence (and the likely nature of a Shard named Honor).

[marianmi]

Just a nitpick here

 

IIRC, Brandon has said that Honor was alive when the Heralds (9 out of 10, anyway) packed it it in.  There has been a lively and unresolved debate about whether he was around until the Recreance, but no WoB that I am aware of.  If he was not foreseeing the Recreance vision, he must have been alive for it.  OTOH, one of the chapter heading quotes seems to be a Radiant wondering what happened to the "Shard of my soul."

 

* There is no proof that ALL radiants severed their bonds - maybe only a lot of them did, but enough to trigger spren's reaction to stop their bonding. So maybe some bonds were ended by the spren.

 

* The Feverstone Keep vision indicates that Tanavast was alive at the Recreance. Maybe he was killed right after - being deserted by his soldiers. Maybe the Recreance had a profound impact on spren, leading to a weakening of Honor, enough to allow its Splintering.

[Kyzkle he/him]

1)      I see it’s already been mentioned that WoB is Tanavast was alive at the Recreance; I’m curious as to what evidence there would be that he was even dead before the breaking of the Oathpact.  Whether he liked it or not, I would assume the Heralds were always free to make the choice to no longer hold to their oaths.  I don’t see an entity named “Honor” denying his Heralds the free will necessary to hold to their oaths.  Otherwise, it’s not honor that would keep them to their oath; it would be a lack of ability to do anything else.

 

I actually hadn't read that, Thanks for the clarification. I still don't know if I believe that it caused the rift between spren and man, especially Honor was alive through it. I guess we'll have to wait until there's a clearer timeline.

 

2)      It’s possible the Radiants betrayed the spren before the Day of Recreance, but what then would you attribute to Dalinar noting, “A terrible feeling struck him.  A sense of immense tragedy, of pain and betrayal…What was that dreadful feeling, that screaming he swore he could almost hear?”  This (and the glow slowly fading from the Blades) makes a pretty strong argument for the severing of the bond between at least 300 Radiants and their spren, as well as the spren’s feelings of great betrayal.

 

I hadn't actually analyzed the Recreance flashback with this theory in mind yet. That also gives a lot of credence to the theory that Shardblades are actually the spren of sufficiently advanced Radiants, so kudos for that catch.

 

 

3)      I think it’s funny that you think Jasnah is lying about the name “Liespren.”  Intentional or not, that was pretty amusing.  Although I would have to ask, if you don’t believe Jasnah is being honest about the name of Shallan’s spren, why would you believe Jasnah’s story about the rest?

 

I don't actually think she realizes that she's wrong. She admits that she isn't an expert on the spren in shadesmar (especially spren politics, in chapter 3 of WoR), and since the Cryptics are pretty reclusive even with regards to other spren, I don't think most other spren really understand them. Any second hand account she's gotten has probably been colored by reputation and the dispute between Honorspren and Cryptics.

 

5)      I agree with Shadewolf about having doubts that Ivory and Jasnah were the first bonded pairing in generations.

 

If we assume Darkness has been hunting spren for a while, let's throw in this revision: individual spren had been bonding with humans sporadically since the Recreance, but it was considered to be a taboo.

 

I'm also still assuming Lift has been bonded for a while when we see her viewpoint. Even if this isn't the case, I'd still like to believe that Shallan and Kaladin's bondings were related to the Cryptic/Honorspren issue. At the very least, it'll make for an interesting meeting in front of a very confused Adolin.

 

I'm not super committed to this theory, I just wanted to throw it out there to see what would stick. Thanks for the feedback! 

[skaa he/him]

Dalinar recognized it as (physical) Kholinar, destroyed. And it looked like a "shattering" was coming.

 

Once again you are referring to the scene after the one I'm talking about. I'll just quote the whole thing here to avoid further confusion:

 

He took a deep breath, opened his eyes, and found himself in a place of smoke.

 

He turned about, wary. The sky was dark and he stood on a field of dull, bone-white rock, jagged and rough, extending in all directions. Off into eternity. Amorphous shapes made of curling grey smoke rose from the ground. Like smoke rings, only in other shapes. Here a chair. There a rockbud, with vines extended, curling to the sides and vanishing. Beside him appeared the figure of a man in uniform, silent and vaporous, rising lethargically toward the sky, mouth open. The shapes melted  and distorted as they climbed higher, though they seemed to hold their forms longer than they should.

 

I know that the stone field itself is a place near Kholinar, but the whole dark sky and smoke objects thing is what I was focusing on. The scenes after that (when the dark sky and the smoke things disappeared) are not part of my proposed alternative Shadesmar.

 

It would be nice to hear another theory for that smoke place, though.

 

As for the "liespren" issue, I had the impression that Jasnah made that name up specifically to irritate the Cryptics, the same way Lift likes calling Wyndle a Voidbringer just for the giggles (yeah, I don't buy that stubborn ignorance act of our awesome Edgedancer). Maybe Jasnah has some issues with how the Cryptics operate in Shadesmar, so she decided to give them a less than flattering nickname. Of course, the insult must be based even partially on fact. I'm guessing that there is something about certain kinds of liars that Cryptics look for. Perhaps they prefer to bond with people who try to save others by concealing some truth. In this case, Shallan was trying to save her brothers when she deceived Jasnah, bringing her to the Cryptics' attention.

Edited January 16, 2014 by skaa

[Isomere]

I like how Ivory has oil based visual clues, confirming in my mind order 7. The black base and sheen of colors that swirl on his skin reminds me of an oil spill on water or soap bubbles.

In terms of humanity's betrayal, I bet they killed the parshmen's spren to enslave them, and that led the directly to the Recreance. Hard to know which of those the spren would resent more.

[hoser he/him]

I've always assumed that the visions were being projected in an isolated corner of the spiritual realm, where Honor could create whatever he wanted Dalinar to see.  It fits with the highstorms including a rift to the spiritual realm to let the investiture into the physical realm.  

 

Jasnah is operating from information provided by the dapper oilspren, who the Cryptics consider a traitor and who may have his own resentments. 

[shadewolf]

I've always assumed that the visions were being projected in an isolated corner of the spiritual realm, where Honor could create whatever he wanted Dalinar to see.  It fits with the highstorms including a rift to the spiritual realm to let the investiture into the physical realm.  

 

Jasnah is operating from information provided by the dapper oilspren, who the Cryptics consider a traitor and who may have his own resentments. 

 

 

I don't think Ivory is a Cryptic. I say this because whenever Jasnah used that term she had referred to Shallan's spren. Ivory is considered a traitor to his own clan of spren, which I believe aren't named yet. I think he's considered a traitor because he's not being wise and careful by forming a bond with Jasnah. I doubt he'd give her false knowledge knowingly, but your right there may be some minor rivalry between the Cryptics and whatever clan of spren Ivory is.

Edited January 16, 2014 by shadewolf

[hoser he/him]

I don't think Ivory is a Cryptic. I say this because whenever Jasnah used that term she had referred to Shallan's spren. Ivory is considered a traitor to his own clan of spren, which I believe aren't named yet. I think he's considered a traitor because he's not being wise and careful by forming a bond with Jasnah. I doubt he'd give her false knowledge knowingly, but your right there may be some minor rivalry between the Cryptics and whatever clan of spren Ivory is.

I don't think ivory is a cryptic either.  He's just a black spren called "Ivory" that thinks certain other spren are liespren .  It's not surprising that a class of spren that value wisdom might have judgements of spren that look for creativity.  I think the Cryptics probably consider all spren that bond traitors to sprendom. 

[CodeMnke she/her]

Just a nitpick here

 

IIRC, Brandon has said that Honor was alive when the Heralds (9 out of 10, anyway) packed it in.  There has been a lively and unresolved debate about whether he was around until the Recreance, but no WoB that I am aware of.  If he was not foreseeing the Recreance vision, he must have been alive for it.  OTOH, one of the chapter heading quotes seems to be a Radiant wondering what happened to the "Shard of my soul."

 

Wasn't there a quote from Honor in the visions that said "most of these are scenes I have seen directly .... but this is one I fear will happen (in the last one)" .... seems to strongly imply that he was around during the Recreance .... although admittedly this could be one that he didn't see directly

[don_karma_II he/him]

Jasnah is operating from information provided by the dapper oilspren, who the Cryptics consider a traitor and who may have his own resentments. 

1. Ivory seems to be invisible to humans (like Syl) except for a few occasions(once as a matter of fact as Shallan accidentally barges in on them and Ivory seem surprised at seeing her).

2. Ivory has bonded with Jasnah against the wishes of other spren authority (More like what Syl claims to have done.).

3. There is dissension between Honor spren and Cryptics.

4. There is dissension amongst spren about who gets to call themselves Honor spren (WoB)

5. Ivory seems to be neither a Honor spren or Cryptics, though calls Cryptics  as Liespren.

6. While having a conversation Syl associates lying with Cryptic.

7. Cryptics by admission likes 'true lies'.

 

Speculations:

 

1 Ivory is neither Honor spren or Cryptic but sides with Honorspren evident from points 1&2 thus calls Cryptics 'Liespren' which might be an insult or a dig at Cryptics for their liking for 'True lies' which can be interpreted as abstract truth or 'hidden truths'.

2. The dissension between Honor spren and Cryptics is that who gets to call themselves Honorspren.

3. Both of them seek the truth. Honor spren is more straight forward and seeks the truth and oaths in its entirety or its face value. Cryptics seek truth which are hidden and abstract, which are difficult to take by face value, as they may seem like a lie on the surface but is more abstract and hidden beneath layers.

4. Either they're the only spren types who're completely of honour or they're the only sprens who're not a combo of honour and cultivation. Honorspren being completely of honour and cryptics being completely of Cultivation which would make point 2 invalid.

5. There is a good chance that Ivory and Syl would get along pretty well rather than with Pattern thus making way for my secret hope that Jasnah and Kaladin will be a couple. ( I mean come on: Closely related spren types or at least spren types on the same side(check); Mutual hatred for Amaran(check);Jasnah's hatred for Kaladin's gender and Kaladin's hatred for Jasnah's kind(light eyes)(check); all the ingredients for an epic romance in and epic setting; Make it Happen Mr.Brandon.. please..  )

[AerionBFII he/him]

Dont think we will see him much:

I have a bad feeling something is going to happen to Jasnah