Hemalurgy's danger

[Stormgate he/him]

I realize that by naming this topic, I have attracted the attention of the entire Dark Alley. Hold your cookies, please. Anyway, on to the topic. In the Ars Arcenum of Shadows of Self, it says on the topic of Hemalurgy that (doesn't really spoil much, if anything, but whatever)

Hemalurgy is extremely dangerous to the Cosmere

Come to think of it, it might be a WoB, but anyway, yeah. Hemalurgy basically involves ripping a piece off of someone's Spiritweb and stapling it to yourself. This is actually fairly similar to Nalthis' magic system, where people give up their Breath-a piece of their soul-to someone else. These stolen Breaths were used to create Nightblood, a weapon that can override Realmatic Thermodynamics and actually destroy Investiture, albeit slowly.

 

This is the danger of Hemalurgy. Using a similar magic system resulted in the most destructive weapon in the Cosmere, with the potential to make it grind to a halt. My imagination can't think of anything potentially worse than Nightblood, perhaps others can think of why Sanderson put this in.

[Voidus]

[Khyrindor he/him]

Nightblood was actually awakened with a Divine Breath. They consume Inestiture like the Honorblades to. But I haven't seen any reason to believe that Hemalurgy consumes Investiture in the same way, or why that would be a danger when the Honorbldes or Divine Breaths aren't.

[DreamEternal]

Nightblood was actually awakened with a Divine Breath.

Source?

[Stormgate he/him]

Neither of the creators of Nightblood died, despite both being Returned. They simply used an insane number of Breaths. Hemalurgic decay is something that we have long known about. The Investiture may not return to the original Shard, but I don't know.

[Khyrindor he/him]

Source?

 

Well it just makes sense. Divine Breaths consume Investiture, but if someone has an insane amount of Breaths as you said, they don't consume themselves. Also, Nightblood is sentient. I know it's not 100% confirmed but it seems sound to me. I just kind of took it as fact. 

 

Although, for Nightblood to be powerful enough to consume Divine Breaths (Vasher says he would die after too long holding him), then it's possible that Nightblood is something even more powerful than just that. Honorblades consume Investiture the same way, that's why Szeth can't hold stormlight very well. Nightblood would fit in the same category to me.

[Yata he/him]

Well it just makes sense. Divine Breaths consume Investiture, but if someone has an insane amount of Breaths as you said, they don't consume themselves. Also, Nightblood is sentient. I know it's not 100% confirmed but it seems sound to me. I just kind of took it as fact. 

 

Although, for Nightblood to be powerful enough to consume Divine Breaths (Vasher says he would die after too long holding him), then it's possible that Nightblood is something even more powerful than just that. Honorblades consume Investiture the same way, that's why Szeth can't hold stormlight very well. Nightblood would fit in the same category to me.

But it's impossible that Nightblood was creates with a Divine Breath.

First of all the Divine Breath can be give to someone else normally. When given it isn't added to the reciver but instead make a powerful Healing on Him.

Therefore also if some Returned want to give his Divine Breath to another Returned this doesn't end with a Returned with 2 Divine Breath (just watch Susenbron).

We know that the Vasher's wife created Nightblood (and Vasher say that the Sword take a great amount of Breath) and she survive after the Nightblood's creation. Therefore she didn't give her Divine Breath to Nightblood.

 

And about the "Returned need a breath every week" I suppose isn't because the Divine Breath need extra investiture. But just because they are Soul that are "forced in to the Realm" while they belong to the Afterlife and their use the extra Investiture to resist in the three Reams.

[natc]

There's also no reason for the phrase "a thousand breaths", however vaguely it was meant, to be used if the amount of power is five times that much.

[iBambam]

I agree that hemalurgy is incredibly dangerous. I just don't believe we've really seen why yet.

[Fatebreaker he/him]

Hemalurgy is so dangerous because you could make what I've taken to calling a Godborn.

Full investiture access to all systems. This is the potential to very nearly transcend Shardhood, because there's no opposing Shard to balance your intent. With Hemalurgy anyone's anyone can become a supercharged Hoid.

Hemalurgy is the ultimate danger to the Cosmere, but it is also it's greatest hope. With Hemalurgy the gods themselves can be defeated.

So yes, I'd say the title of this thread is accurate.

Regards,

The DA

[CthulhuSpren]

Would you not run out of bind points on your body? Power gained by Hemalurgy is weaker(?) than the persons power was that was taken away, because of hemalurgic decay, even with blood coating; so you would need lots of spikes to be at the same level as hoid, unless there was a way to put more attribues onto a spike.

 

Maybe a way its dangerous is if you spike a sliver or something like that

[Khyrindor he/him]

But it's impossible that Nightblood was creates with a Divine Breath.

First of all the Divine Breath can be give to someone else normally. When given it isn't added to the reciver but instead make a powerful Healing on Him.

Therefore also if some Returned want to give his Divine Breath to another Returned this doesn't end with a Returned with 2 Divine Breath (just watch Susenbron).

We know that the Vasher's wife created Nightblood (and Vasher say that the Sword take a great amount of Breath) and she survive after the Nightblood's creation. Therefore she didn't give her Divine Breath to Nightblood.

 

And about the "Returned need a breath every week" I suppose isn't because the Divine Breath need extra investiture. But just because they are Soul that are "forced in to the Realm" while they belong to the Afterlife and their use the extra Investiture to resist in the three Reams.

 

We haven't seen everything that you can do with Breaths yet. But I could explain your points like so:

 

1. Intent. If someone gives someone their Divine Breath with the intent of healing them, it will heal them. But I argue that if you gave a Divine Breath to someone with the intent of adding your Divine Breath to theirs, it would do just that. Therefore, if you awaken a sword with a Divine Breath, it should work just fine. Do you have quotes? I don't remember any information on the transferring of Divine Breaths. I don't see why it should be any different from regular Breath.

 

2. If what I said above was true, then someone can hold more than one Divine Breath. Or if it isn't, they could hold it in an object on their person, as long as they're ok with it gaining sentience. Therefore, someone could use one of their Divine Breaths to awaken a sword, and use the other one to keep living. Again, do you have a quote on who Awakened Nightblood?

 

Regular Breaths just don't consume Investiture. We haven't seen that happen. Why would it be different with Nightblood.

 

It just makes a lot of sense to me. Am I crazy or do I just need a reread?

[Stormgate he/him]

We haven't seen everything that you can do with Breaths yet. But I could explain your points like so:

 

1. Intent. If someone gives someone their Divine Breath with the intent of healing them, it will heal them. But I argue that if you gave a Divine Breath to someone with the intent of adding your Divine Breath to theirs, it would do just that. Therefore, if you awaken a sword with a Divine Breath, it should work just fine. Do you have quotes? I don't remember any information on the transferring of Divine Breaths. I don't see why it should be any different from regular Breath.

 

2. If what I said above was true, then someone can hold more than one Divine Breath. Or if it isn't, they could hold it in an object on their person, as long as they're ok with it gaining sentience. Therefore, someone could use one of their Divine Breaths to awaken a sword, and use the other one to keep living. Again, do you have a quote on who Awakened Nightblood?

 

Regular Breaths just don't consume Investiture. We haven't seen that happen. Why would it be different with Nightblood.

 

It just makes a lot of sense to me. Am I crazy or do I just need a reread?

Your theory is flawed, but I can't tell how. I do think that in the book, it mentions Shashara being killed by Nightblood and Vasher, and Vasher was the only other person who has any connection to Nightblood's creation. Divine Breath is different from normal Breath because Divine Breaths are basically Splinters that, as far as we know, are not sentient. I'm not saying Endowment has been Splintered, after all, there were Radiantspren before Honor was Splintered.

[Khyrindor he/him]

Intentionally splintering is a thing. That's just how Shards Invest. Small Breaths are Innate Investiture that is part of everyone's Identity. Endowment will Splinter a bit of her self with each Divine Breath. In the same way that Radient spren are sentient, Endowment's Splinters (The Divine Breaths) are sentient by themselves, but when in a person, conforms to their personality (opposite to a Shard, simply because there isn't enough raw Investiture and Intent to shape the person). However, once you give that Divine Breath an Intent, and put it into an object, it would gain Sentience and have an Intent. It just makes so much sense to me. I don't know who Awakened Nightbood, or how, but it wouldn't fit if they just gave him thousands of Breaths. 

[Stormgate he/him]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Fifth Heightening, the one obtained by a Divine Breath, able to be obtained by two thousand normal Breaths?

[Voidus]

For reference there is a WoB somewhere that you can use a Divine Breath to Awaken something rather than using it to heal someone. Whether you can give it to someone without healing them I don't know.

[Stormgate he/him]

For reference there is a WoB somewhere that you can use a Divine Breath to Awaken something rather than using it to heal someone. Whether you can give it to someone without healing them I don't know.

I'm assuming that it kills the Returned?

[Orlion Blight he/him]

Now, here's a pointless ponderance: can Nightblood be used as a Spike, and if so, what would be the result? We could probably go anywhere from "I don't think Nightblood is made from a proper metal" to "oh my glob, everyone everywhere would be doomed!"

[Stormgate he/him]

Nightblood is full of Investiture. Technically, he could be used as a spike, but items have a certain limit they can be invested, and Nightblood is maxed out.

[Ari he/him]

We haven't seen everything that you can do with Breaths yet. But I could explain your points like so:

 

1. Intent. If someone gives someone their Divine Breath with the intent of healing them, it will heal them. But I argue that if you gave a Divine Breath to someone with the intent of adding your Divine Breath to theirs, it would do just that. Therefore, if you awaken a sword with a Divine Breath, it should work just fine. Do you have quotes? I don't remember any information on the transferring of Divine Breaths. I don't see why it should be any different from regular Breath.

 

2. If what I said above was true, then someone can hold more than one Divine Breath. Or if it isn't, they could hold it in an object on their person, as long as they're ok with it gaining sentience. Therefore, someone could use one of their Divine Breaths to awaken a sword, and use the other one to keep living. Again, do you have a quote on who Awakened Nightblood?

 

Regular Breaths just don't consume Investiture. We haven't seen that happen. Why would it be different with Nightblood.

 

It just makes a lot of sense to me. Am I crazy or do I just need a reread?

 

Wouldn't a Returned who awakened an object with their Divine Breath die the same way they do when giving it away for healing? I think it was WoB or the annotations, but Brandon has referred to Nightblood's creator wielding it, so I don't think it's possible that Nightblood would be Invested with a divine breath if his creator survived his creation.

I'm not 100% that you could retain a Divine Breath the way you propose, to be honest, given the nature of how they're used to achieve the resurrection.

 

Nightblood is full of Investiture. Technically, he could be used as a spike, but items have a certain limit they can be invested, and Nightblood is maxed out.

 

Do we have a WoB on this or something? I may have missed it if so. It doesn't seem unreasonable or anything, but it's always better to read these things first-hand to get the implications right.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Ari

[Stormgate he/him]

There's a WoB, but I don't know where it is.

[The Sovereign]

There's a WoB, but I don't know where it is.

 

Hemalurgy and WoB two things I am stupidly good at... here you go:

 

Interview: Apr 15th, 2013

Reddit AMA 2013 (Verbatim)

Herowannabe ()

Can an infused Hemalurgy spike be affected by Allomancy—steel pushes and iron pulls? Or does the charge interfere with the Allomancy much like a persons body would?

Brandon Sanderson

Anything infused (regardless of the world or magic that infused it) is resistant to magic. So you'd have a lot of trouble pushing or pulling on a spike, unless you had access to a boost of some sort to overcome the resistance.

theofficetroll

So, Nightblade would be resistant to steelpushing? Good to know ;-)

Herowannabe

My friend and I asked him something like this at a book signing, but for some reason it never seemed to make it onto 17th Shard. We asked if a shardblade or Nightblood could be used as a hemalurgic spike (i.e.: two different investitures of magic). Brandon said that yes, in theory you could do that, but objects have a limit to how much investiture they can hold, and that it could be argued that things like Nightblood and Shardblades are already "full."

 

[Stormgate he/him]

Hemalurgy and WoB two things I am stupidly good at... here you go:

Thank you Iron Eyes. I'm no good at sourcing information.

[The Sovereign]

Thank you Iron Eyes. I'm no good at sourcing information.

 

I do a fair amount of archiving at my job, it is an acquired skill .

[Orlion Blight he/him]

Drat!