theory-questions Mechanisms governing Surgebinding

[Oversleep]

I don't know if anybody already posted that...

First of all, fuel. For Surgebinding it's obviously Stormlight which needs to be inhaled by the user. As long as the user is holding Stormlight inside, he has access to Surges. I think we all know that.

But what I want to say is that to produce any effect on object other than the Surgebinder himself, one has to infuse that object with Stormlight. The implication is that, unlike Allomancy, user has to touch anything he wishes to influence.
We had seen both Szeth and Kaladin infuse objects with Stormlight to use Lashings on them.
We've seen Shallan feeding illusions with Stormlight and giving Stormlight to objects during Soulcasting.
Lift infuses seeds. Ym touches the boy to heal them.

So nothing can be done from a distance, you have to physically touch something to infuse it. This changes many things about fighting.

Now for the questions:
Can Radiants infuse things through Sharplate?
Does Sharplate prevent leaking Stormlight from Radiant's body, collecting it accumulating it in itself, basically closing the circuit?
How does Stormlight interfere? For example, Kaladin wants to Lash Shallan, so he comes up to her and infuses her with Stormlight. Would Lashing work? Could she just take this Stormlight for herself? Could she choose to let the Lashing affect her?
What if Kaladin wants to Lash somebody who already inhaled Stormlight? Can he use that person's Stormlight against their will, and if not, can he do so using surprise when opponent wasn't focused?
If he can't use somebody's Stormlight at all, he needs to infuse that person with his own Stormlight, but can he force Stormlight into somebody who already has Stormlight in them?

What about more Surgebinders? Let's say that two Windrunners at the same time want to Lash the same object in different directions. Would both succeed in infusing, while the object would move in resultant direction? Would they be pressing against each other to infuse it? Would each infuse part of it and the object would rip from different gravitational forces?

Does the oath-level matter in these cases? Does amount of Stormlight inhaled matter?

Edited December 8, 2015 by Oversleep

[FormlessFox he/him]

So nothing can be done from a distance, you have to physically touch something to infuse it. This changes many things about fighting.

Now for the questions:

Can Radiants infuse things through Sharplate?

Does Sharplate prevent leaking Stormlight from Radiant's body, collecting it accumulating it in itself, basically closing the circuit?

How does Stormlight interfere? For example, Kaladin wants to Lash Shallan, so he comes up to her and infuses her with Stormlight. Would Lashing work? Could she just take this Stormlight for herself? Could she choose to let the Lashing affect her?

What if Kaladin wants to Lash somebody who already inhaled Stormlight? Can he use that person's Stormlight against their will, and if not, can he do so using surprise when opponent wasn't focused?

If he can't use somebody's Stormlight at all, he needs to infuse that person with his own Stormlight, but can he force Stormlight into somebody who already has Stormlight in them?

 

In Way of Kings, Jasnah kills those robbers by ranged soulcasting lightning and fire.  She may have been touching them directly in Shadesmar though? Also when Szeth changes the direction of gravity and falls in a direction is he lashing a distant point he wants to travel to? I forget how that works.

 

I believe Szeth mentions at one point that he does not wear shardplate because it interferes with his lashings.

 

Shardplate keeping in leaking stormlight would be a really cool idea!

 

Using others stormlight might be like feruchemy you can only use what you stored. 

 

I know for a fact in Way of Kings, Kaladin is able to incompletely take back some stormlight that he put into a wall.

 

Perhaps Stormlight will function like breath in Warbreaker and only can be taken from another with permission.

[stonedshaman]

In WoR Shallan takes some stormlight back from an illusion

[Stormgate he/him]

I believe Shardplate is solid Investiture, like Lerasium or Atium, maybe. It seeks to be a whole set of Plate, and absorbs Stormlight to accomplish that. I think that Knights Radiant would have no trouble with Surgebinding through their own Shardplate.

[VINdaloo]

Not to sure about shardplate holding in stormlight. In WoR Kaladin when enters the arena to help Adolin and Renarin, he puts a shardplate helmet on his hand, which leads to his stormlight running out faster. I think it might be the same with a full plate. The shardplates we've seen so far use stormlight as fuel.

[tobar14 he/him]

What about more Surgebinders? Let's say that two Windrunners at the same time want to Lash the same object in different directions. Would both succeed in infusing, while the object would move in resultant direction? Would they be pressing against each other to infuse it? Would each infuse part of it and the object would rip from different gravitational forces?

I'm fairly certain that an object can only be invested in by one person at a time (I'm basing this off of my memory of Warbreaker)(oh and my memory from Mistborn is telling me that it is very difficult to use allomancy on invested objects).  Also, nothing actually happens at the same time, someone will always infuse the object first, by nanoseconds.  So whoever infuses it first.

[TwelfthOfSnackTime he/him]

Not to sure about shardplate holding in stormlight. In WoR Kaladin when enters the arena to help Adolin and Renarin, he puts a shardplate helmet on his hand, which leads to his stormlight running out faster. I think it might be the same with a full plate. The shardplates we've seen so far use stormlight as fuel.

 

 

It drained his stormlight because he was infusing it to keep it together. It normally would have broken but for his constant stream to it. Whether it would have drained stormlight when not cracked is the real question.

Non-Radiant Shardplate does use up some stormlight overtime I believe but taking damage increases the drain as it slips through cracks. 

[Oversleep]

I know for a fact in Way of Kings, Kaladin is able to incompletely take back some stormlight that he put into a wall.

 

 

In WoR Shallan takes some stormlight back from an illusion

I know this.

 

It drained his stormlight because he was infusing it to keep it together. It normally would have broken but for his constant stream to it. Whether it would have drained stormlight when not cracked is the real question.

Non-Radiant Shardplate does use up some stormlight overtime I believe but taking damage increases the drain as it slips through cracks.

Yeah, but my point is... it's like Shallan and her illusions feeding of her Stormlight - she no longer has visible Stormlight leaking out of her, the illusions take whatever leaks out. So I thought Shardplate would make use of that leaking Stormlight, so the amount of Stormlight the Shardplate needs to power itself doesn't come entirely from what the Surgebinder actively puts in.

Is what I wrote comprehensible?

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

Hmmm. Did anyone ever bother to wonder whether every order of Radiants actually used shardplate?

[Oversleep]

Hmmm. Did anyone ever bother to wonder whether every order of Radiants actually used shardplate?

Well, the Stormfather said that Dalinar has to be a Radiant without Shards. So I guess Bondsmiths didn't use it. As for the rest, we have to count colours of the Radiants appearing in Dalinar's visions. We could cross out some Orders which use Shardplate.

[Slaybalj]

I am curious why Jasnah doesn't glow when soulcasting.  Even when transforming the giant boulder in Kharbranth, there is nothing to indicate anything out of the ordinary and since Shallan is taking Memories of her soulcasting whenever she sees it, I can't help but think if there was even the smallest stormlight leaking it would have shown up in Shallan's pictures.    

 

Obviously Jasnah is using the gems in the 'fabrial' to hold the stormlight she needs, but does she transfer it directly from the gems to the object being transformed or does she have to inhale it and transfer it personally?  and if so, did she just train herself to do so at a rate so small it's unobservable?

[Voidus]

I'm fairly certain that an object can only be invested in by one person at a time (I'm basing this off of my memory of Warbreaker)(oh and my memory from Mistborn is telling me that it is very difficult to use allomancy on invested objects).  Also, nothing actually happens at the same time, someone will always infuse the object first, by nanoseconds.  So whoever infuses it first.

Metalminds can be used by multiple people and allomancers can affect the same person or object, Investiture tends to interfere with other Investiture but it's not a hard 'this is Invested so nothing else can Invest in it'

[FormlessFox he/him]

Metalminds can be used by multiple people and allomancers can affect the same person or object, Investiture tends to interfere with other Investiture but it's not a hard 'this is Invested so nothing else can Invest in it'

To my knowledge Metalminds cannot be used by multiple people. Sazed mentions he had to listen to a historian and store the stories in his own metalminds in mistborn. Also vin tries to burn one of sazeds metal minds unsuccessfully and he says something regarding metalminds only being used by the person who filled it.

[Voidus]

To my knowledge Metalminds cannot be used by multiple people. Sazed mentions he had to listen to a historian and store the stories in his own metalminds in mistborn. Also vin tries to burn one of sazeds metal minds unsuccessfully and he says something regarding metalminds only being used by the person who filled it.

They can't access each others power but they can use the same piece of metal to each store their own trait.

[Patrick Star]

Dude, you've been out of the loop.

 

Surgebinding, like everything else, is governed by the Wheels of Lull.  We just have to keep the Thalmor from destroying them

 

Anyways, here's how I explain infusing an already infused object.  Thing of Kaladin lashing Shallan as pouring milk into a glass.  Stormlight is the milk, and once the glass is filled, it can be drunk.  However, if Shallan is already infused, that's like the glass already being partially filled with orange juice.  If Kaladin pours milk into that glass and drinks it, it is NOT going to taste good, and it will be much harder to drink.

 

I have no idea if that's a good analogy or not (the orange juice - milk one, not the Wheels of Lull).

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

Hmmm. Did anyone ever bother to wonder whether every order of Radiants actually used shardplate?

IIRC they all had access to Plate but some chose not to use it.

[CJ Feboris]

Jasnah surge binds at a distance in WoK, although she may have been touching the criminals soul in Shadesmar.

[Patrick Star]

Jasnah surge binds at a distance in WoK, although she may have been touching the criminals soul in Shadesmar.

That's the transportation surge interacting with her soul casting.

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

That's the transportation surge interacting with her soul casting.

 

Is that 100% sure? I agree that it's very likely, but do we have confirmation on it?

[Voidus]

Is that 100% sure? I agree that it's very likely, but do we have confirmation on it?

Not to my knowledge. It's a popular opinion but I don't think there's any WoB on it.

[Stormgate he/him]

Seems logical. I wonder how the Lightweaving and Transformation Surges will mix.

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

I know this.

 

Yeah, but my point is... it's like Shallan and her illusions feeding of her Stormlight - she no longer has visible Stormlight leaking out of her, the illusions take whatever leaks out. So I thought Shardplate would make use of that leaking Stormlight, so the amount of Stormlight the Shardplate needs to power itself doesn't come entirely from what the Surgebinder actively puts in.

Is what I wrote comprehensible?

I think it would depend on if the shardplate is summoned the same as a living blade. If its a living suit of shardplate (nahel bond and all that) then, as of now, I dont see why it couldnt act as a closed system. Although cracks and a beating might weaken the closed system.

As for hijacking someones stormlight, I would assume it works on the same type of principle as ingested metals for allomancy. Which IIRC, you cant effect them.

[Patrick Star]

Seems logical. I wonder how the Lightweaving and Transformation Surges will mix.

 

Illumination, not Lightweaving.

 

We can't say for certain until we see what Truthseers can do with the Illumination surge.  I'd imagine that it has to do with the illusions.  Maybe that interaction is what allows Lightweavers to produce audio with their illusions as well as visuals?