Immortality in the Cosmere: Choose your poison; or whatever the opposite of that is... [General Cosmere Spoilers]

[Moogle]

But Investiture is Investiture. Once you've hacked it, you should be able to mess around with the system. the only real difference between Investiture on Nalthis and Investiture elsewhere is that it conforms itself to units--Breaths. If you can hack Feruchemy to store a Breath, compounding it with Allomancy shouldn't be a problem. In the same way that Allomancy converts itself to the Feruchemical store because the sDNA has been overwritten, so to speak, the Investiture pulled from Preservation should be able to "understand" the Breath units and shape itself accordingly.

 

Investiture is not Investiture. Any Investiture can power any magic system, but that does not mean that Breaths are Stormlight, or can become Stormlight. They are, according to one WoB, different like AC and DC electricity are different. You cannot use Soulcasting to convert something into lerasium or atium, and I don't expect you can use Compounding to turn nicrosil into Breaths.

 

Fundamentally, what you're proposing is trying to use Preservation's power and end up with something that isn't of Preservation. I don't agree that this is possible at all. In every power we've seen, once used the power returns to the Shard. The implications here are absurd - that you can convert one Shard into another Shard, which is something that, were it possible, we'd have expected to see in the past.

 

We don't know enough about Feruchemical nicrosil at this point to say for sure, obviously, but despite that I would be absolutely stunned if this were possible.

 

Definitely something to ask in a WoB at some point.

 

---

 

To continue on with the Compounding thing... when Preservation's Investiture flows through a burning metalmind, it is hijacked and told "become like this Feruchemical trait". In the case of a nicrosilmind, I don't see why it would be told to become Breaths rather than become Investiture, ie. pass through the nicrosilmind without being filtered by it and result in mist.

 

To get very speculationy on something we know next to nothing about, I would propose that nicrosil is sort of the absence of a "nozzle" - normally a metal filters power, but I'd propose nicrosil is unique in that it does not act like a filter at all.

 

---

 

I want to point out that you can burn atium, Ruin's Investiture, using Allomancy, Preservation's magic system.

 

When you do that, you use Ruin's power in Preservation's system. What is being proposed with Compounding Breaths is sort of the reverse - using Preservation's power in Preservation's system to produce Endowment's power. Not the same thing at all.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Moogle

[Young Bard]

Just a note - you said in the Returned section "...you would need to be returned by Cultivation." I presume you mean Endowment.

 

As for my choice, I'd have to say it depends on what situation I was in. If the spirit of Adonalsium came up before me and said I could have any one trick to being immortal, I'd probably pick having 2000 Breath.

 

If I were a soldier or in some other physically dangerous situation, I'd probably choose double atium.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

Mine would be Breath. The bonus perks are nice and if I could get more I would be quick at picking up Awakening which seems to be a very versatile system.

[Oversleep]

Moogle, I believe that the point is that Nicrosil Compounder receives Breath and stores it in nicrosilmind. Then effectively that nicrosilmind is charged with Breath, so burning it would release more Breath.

Just like Feruchemical charge overwrites the natural metal charge, the Breath does the same.

[Yata]

Moogle, I believe that the point is that Nicrosil Compounder receives Breath and stores it in nicrosilmind. Then effectively that nicrosilmind is charged with Breath, so burning it would release more Breath.

Just like Feruchemical charge overwrites the natural metal charge, the Breath does the same.

The point is "where the Does Extra Breaths come from ?" 

The Allomancy works with Preservation's powers and Moogle (and I) doubt that may trasform one kind of Investiture into something entire different

[Oversleep]

The point is "where the Does Extra Breaths come from ?" 

The Allomancy works with Preservation's powers and Moogle (and I) doubt that may trasform one kind of Investiture into something entire different

That's the same issue as with Compounding Feruchemy - "where does this extra feruchemical charge come from?". Feruchemy is already transforming Allomantic power into Feruchemical charge.

If Endowment magic is fine with Returned feeding on Stormlight, I don't see why Compounding Breath wouldn't work.

[natc]

Because you don't create feruchemical charge from compounding. Once a charge leaves the metalmind it's honestly not really a "charge" anymore since it's quite literally discharging. The discharged investiture enhances your body a certain way, and it's not some newfangled property, just a preexisting trait being pushed to unnatural levels. Compounding modifies/hacks the power of Preservation to produce an effect on your body's traits the same way as with feruchemy, so that when you store charge you are taking power out of an enhanced state instead of a normal one. That way you can store nonstop without dropping below the human baseline if so desired.

Merely burning a metalmind will not just charge your metalminds spontaneously, you just have more to store than you should. You can just burn the metalmind directly without storing IIRC; compounded burns are purely allomantic.

Edited December 6, 2015 by natc

[Edgedancer]

Is anything speaking against Preservation's power copying the properties of Breath? I mean the point of this wouldn't be to create more of Endowment's Investiture but to create Investiture that sticks to you and causes certain enhancements within you. It isn't the form it takes naturally but Lerasium and Atium also don't happen naturally, unless actively created by Shards, so is there anything speaking against Investiture taking on those properties just because it comes from Preservation?

[Yata]

@Oversleep

If something like trasforming Investiture of a Shard in Investiture of another Shard was possible (and quite easy as you say). Odium will did it everytime he killed a Shardholder.

And the "Compounding Breaths" make exactly this.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Yata

[Moogle]

That's the same issue as with Compounding Feruchemy - "where does this extra feruchemical charge come from?". Feruchemy is already transforming Allomantic power into Feruchemical charge.

If Endowment magic is fine with Returned feeding on Stormlight, I don't see why Compounding Breath wouldn't work.

 

Feruchemical charge is the wrong way to think about what happens in Compounding, I think.

 

What happens with every magic system is that you shape Investiture through a nozzle like a metal's molecular structure, a Command (where will is the nozzle), etc.

 

When you Compound, you force Allomantic Investiture through a metalmind, and it finds the metalmind's nozzle in place of the normal nozzle of the metal. It is then shaped by that nozzle, shaping the Investiture into a Feruchemical power like increased strength. In a normal metalmind, you've given it Investiture and this Investiture is then filtered out and back into you.

 

With Compounding Breath - assuming you can store it with Feruchemical nicrosil - you force the Breath into the metal, and Endowment's Investiture waits to come out of the nicrosilmind's nozzle. So you can tap this metalmind and get Breath, because Endowment's power is there waiting to be used. (In normal Feruchemy, the Investiture is produced by you, but I think everyone can agree this particular metalmind would be of Endowment.)

 

But when you burn it, you try to force Preservation's power through this nozzle of the nicrosilmind.

 

Many people think this should copy the Breath, but that's not what's happening in my opinion. Breath is not a power like strength or calories. It is raw power, a piece of your soul you've stored.

 

What's happening is that the nozzle is "shape Investiture into a form that can be absorbed by my body/soul". The nozzle is not, "give me Breath", it is, "give me soul". When you store Breath, the soul that comes out is going to be Breath. When you store your own soul, the soul that comes out is going to be your own.

 

I suppose it would be easiest to summarize as, I don't agree that nicrosilminds are "typed" like tinminds (which store different senses) or bendalloymins (which store calories or hydration). They're all metalminds which store your soul - and your soul, on Scadrial, is composed of multiple types of Investiture, so I don't think it would make sense for a nicrosilmind to only be able to store one type. And if it doesn't have to store one type, I don't expect Compounding a nicrosilmind to copy exactly what's inside the metalmind.

 

(On an intellectual honesty note, I came to this particular model of Compounding a nicrosilmind because of the (to me) absurdity of turning Preservation into Endowment. It's not like I derived this naturally from first principles - I am forced into this because the easy model results in (to me) contradictions.)

 

Nozzle WoBs:

QUESTION

My question is, what 'causes' an effect in the end for Allomancy? You've got Investiture being filtered through a metal, but does putting it through the metal turn the Investiture cause a Steelpush, or is it putting the Investiture through your soul that causes it? At what point do you turn Preservation's Investiture into a Steelpush, or is there no one 'point' where it happens?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out.

Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them.

(source)

QUESTION

If metals shape the Investiture in Allomancy, causing a Steelpush or whatever, how is it that the mists can be used to perform the same feat? What is 'shaping' the inhaled mists into a Steelpush, if there's no metal "nozzle" to do so?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle. This can be seen in Warbreaker, where the power has been distributed and inhabits the people. The nozzle idea is important for Magics that are drawing power externally, as it keeps the power from overwhelming and destroying you. (Which, basically, happened to Vin at the end of the Trilogy--she got consumed by the magic. She became something new, now, so it didn't KILL her. It destroyed what she was, transformed her into something else.)

So you see magics like on Sel and Scadrial where a specific nozzle is needed--as the power source is external, at least with Allomancy. Will and intent take a backseat, though still pop up on occasion. On Nalthis (and in a lesser way, Roshar) will and intent are more important, and what you are trying to do shapes the magic more directly.

A little direct manifestation in this is found in the subtle differences between Allomancy and Feruchemy. In Allomancy, when you enhance the senses, you just get a blast of power--and all senses are enhanced, whether you want them all or not. In Feruchemy, you can be more precise, and pick a specific sense to store. The power is internal here, and therefore more limited in how much you can draw--but you can also be more precise with its manipulation.

Note that Roshar Surgebinding is a special case, as the magical symbiosis there is stronger than it is on other worlds, as much of the magic involves bits of power who have become sapient.

(source)

Edited December 6, 2015 by Moogle

[Voidus]

When you do that, you use Ruin's power in Preservation's system. What is being proposed with Compounding Breaths is sort of the reverse - using Preservation's power in Preservation's system to produce Endowment's power. Not the same thing at all.

Not quite, what's being proposed is using Endowments power (Breath) in Preservations system (Allomancy) to produce an enhanced version of Endowments power (More Breath)

That said I doubt this would work since I think Nicrosil would just convert it into generic Investiture, destroying any link to Endowment. Now if you burned an Awakened piece of metal you might be able to get more Breath out of it.

 

@Oversleep

If something like trasforming Investiture of a Shard in Investiture of another Shard was possible (and quite easy as you say). Odium will did it everytime he killed a Shardholder.

And the "Compounding Breaths" make exactly this.

What's being discussed is imitating the properties of another Shards system (In this case Breath) not the Intent of the Investiture, this is something Brandon has explicitly said could happen, he mentioned that Preservation could produce an ability of foresight similar to Atium.

Also, it being possible doesn't necessarily mean that Odium is aware of or capable of it.

Is anything speaking against Preservation's power copying the properties of Breath? I mean the point of this wouldn't be to create more of Endowment's Investiture but to create Investiture that sticks to you and causes certain enhancements within you. It isn't the form it takes naturally but Lerasium and Atium also don't happen naturally, unless actively created by Shards, so is there anything speaking against Investiture taking on those properties just because it comes from Preservation?

Yeah, that's what I think would happen if you burned an Awakened piece of metal. Or in the case of an Awakener who is also an Allomancer that tapping any Nicrosilmind could be used to boost your breath-count.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Voidus

[Moogle]

Not quite, what's being proposed is using Endowments power (Breath) in Preservations system (Allomancy) to produce an enhanced version of Endowments power (More Breath)

That said I doubt this would work since I think Nicrosil would just convert it into generic Investiture, destroying any link to Endowment. Now if you burned an Awakened piece of metal you might be able to get more Breath out of it.

 

I disagree. Compounding causes Preservation's Investiture to copy the "beat" of the metalmind (or nozzle, whatever). In this case, with the Compounding Infinite Breath And Become A Literal Shard theory, we're taking a stream of Preservation's Investiture, exposing it to the Breath inside a metalmind, and expecting this Investiture to become Breath.

 

To make an analogy to chemistry, the Breath stored in a nicrosilmind should act as a catalyst in this scenario. The Breath is not directly combining with Preservation's Investiture.

 

So I think my statement that we're using Preservation's power in Preservation's system to produce the power of Endowment is quite accurate.

 

I guess you could be super pedantic and say "we're using Preservation's power and influencing it with Endowment's power to produce nothing but Endowment's power" but that kind of misses the point I'm trying to make, that it's like we're doing a chemical reaction and the professor's saying "okay our chemical equation is O2 -> 2Au... hey why are you guys looking at me funny?".

[Voidus]

Actually if anything I'd say that Preservations power is closer to the catalyst, although there's not really any clear analogous element. You need both to produce the reaction.The reaction would be something along the lines of:
P + E ---> 2E
A catalyst only lowers the energy threshold of the reaction it doesn't alter the products.

And if I was going to be super pedantic I'd say that you're using both Preservation and Endowments power in a mixture of Preservation and Ruins system to produce Endowments power.

But as I said, I don't think that's how to accomplish it. I'm more with Edge that what you'd want to do is not aiming to produce more breath but to filter Preservations power to provide a similar effect. I think that if you burned an awakened metal you'd get something similar to Atium and gold simultaneously, providing immunity to disease and agelessnes (Which would actually be better than Atium since you don't get diminishing returns) Now the problem then becomes that you'd need to keep creating Awakened metal to continue producing this effect which means you'd need a bunch of Breath. The potential solution is to use Nicrosil to power your Awakening.

[Edgedancer]

Right, the goal seems mostly to be using a magic hack (Compounding) to create another magic hack in which Preservation ends up powering the system of BioChroma and not rewriting power of one Shard to belong to another.

[Oversleep]

Because you don't create feruchemical charge from compounding. Once a charge leaves the metalmind it's honestly not really a "charge" anymore since it's quite literally discharging. The discharged investiture enhances your body a certain way, and it's not some newfangled property, just a preexisting trait being pushed to unnatural levels. Compounding modifies/hacks the power of Preservation to produce an effect on your body's traits the same way as with feruchemy, so that when you store charge you are taking power out of an enhanced state instead of a normal one. That way you can store nonstop without dropping below the human baseline if so desired.

Now we're just arguing semantics - burning a metalmind gives you a tenfold of what was stored inside, the effect is as if you drained a metalmind with a ten times more stored attribute. If Awakener/Feruchemist who ate a Lerasium bead stored some of his Breath, which is as well part of himself as luck or connections, or Identity, even, then he would have a metalmind with Breath stored in it. Then he would proceed to burn it and get a tenfold what was stored inside - more Breath.

If you can store different senses in tin, and Compound them one at the time, you should be able to store different kinds of Investiture in nicrosil.

 

@Oversleep

If something like trasforming Investiture of a Shard in Investiture of another Shard was possible (and quite easy as you say). Odium will did it everytime he killed a Shardholder.

And the "Compounding Breaths" make exactly this.

Um, no? There is a huge difference between a Shard's magic and Shard itself.

WoR worlhopping spoiler:

If Zahel can provide his weekly meal of Breath in the form of Stormlight...

And with that analogy with electricity and different receivers, Compounding lets you hack into a normal receiver machine and plug in it another one, with is compatible with it. And when you turn the first one, only the second one will work. The problem is to find such a "second machine" which can be plugged into the "normal receiver".

The only assumption we're making here is that you can store Breath in nicrosilmind and when you tap it, you also get Breath out of it.

As for my idea with Compounding Investiture, just spike Lift with double bendalloy. It's kind of going even more around, since she would be Compounding nutrition which is then transformed into Stormlight, but we're effectively getting more Stormlight here than we put in (or rather food equivalent of Stormlight).

Then she would Edgedance all around battlefield, healing and providing more fuel for Radiants.

...

Can you ask Nightwatcher to become a Fullborn?

[Moogle]

As for my idea with Compounding Investiture, just spike Lift with double bendalloy. It's kind of going even more around, since she would be Compounding nutrition which is then transformed into Stormlight, but we're effectively getting more Stormlight here than we put in (or rather food equivalent of Stormlight).

Then she would Edgedance all around battlefield, healing and providing more fuel for Radiants.

 

Actually, this might not work:

Q: If someone used Hemalurgy to give Lift from Words of Radiance the ability to use Bendalloy Feruchemy, could she convert the nutrition she gets out of Feruchemy into stormlight?

A: Theoretically possible, I suppose.

(source)

 

It's "theoretically" possible, which implies there might be a problem.

 

And this trick, while I agree it might work, is not the same as what you're suggesting with Compounding Breaths. When Lift converts food to Stormlight, it's apparently "like the metals" in that it gates in Investiture rather than turning the food into Stormlight directly:

Argent: Does Lift turn food into investiture directly or is it similar to the metals on--

Brandon: Similar to the metals.

Argent: So like a gate?

Brandon: Yes.

Argent: Okay, that’s good to know.

Brandon: She can metabolize-- She can draw--  It’s not actually the food, it’s--  It’s not like the metals, not exactly.  It’s not--  What she can do is she can metabolize into investiture instead of sugar.  Does that make sense?

Argent: Yeah.

Brandon: We metabolize food into sugar.  She can metabolize it into investiture.  Does that make sense?

Argent: That makes a lot of sense.  So if she eats--

Brandon: She’s got to have a blood sugar spike.

Argent: So if she eats like a cake it will give her more investiture--

Brandon: Faster .  It will give her faster.

Argent: Whereas if she eats a vegetable...

Brandon: Vegetable...  More calories is going to equal more.  But the better comparison would be a sausage and bread.  Because bread is a fast blood sugar spike and the sausage is not.  And that’s how I’m working in my head.  It’s kind of a magical version of a blood sugar spike and I have it happen to her faster than it could happen.  Like normally you eat a piece of bread and your blood sugar spikes in a half hour, it’s going to go faster for Lift.

Argent: Her’s is like five minutes.

Brandon: Her’s is like five minutes, but a sausage would be slower.

(source)

 

That said, the WoB's a bit unclear if it's ACTUALLY like the metals even though he says it is, but either way I have no problem with Lift Compounding nutrition if it's like the metals, but I DO have a problem with the idea of Compounding Breath.

[Oversleep]

 It's "theoretically" possible, which implies there might be a problem.

 

And this trick, while I agree it might work, is not the same as what you're suggesting with Compounding Breaths. When Lift converts food to Stormlight, it's apparently "like the metals" in that it gates in Investiture rather than turning the food into Stormlight directly:

 

That said, the WoB's a bit unclear if it's ACTUALLY like the metals even though he says it is, but either way I have no problem with Lift Compounding nutrition if it's like the metals, but I DO have a problem with the idea of Compounding Breath.

As I see it, it's more "I haven't really thought about it, but why not?". Given that she can burn her fat reserves for Stormlight proves there shouldn't be any problem with the trick we're talking about. Unless there are some problems we do not know about.

I know it's not the same as NicroCompounding Investiture, it's a workaround. I think what Lift does is drawing in Stormlight in the process of metabolization of food into sugar - it's the same as burning metals.

As for NicroCompounding Breath, let's agree to disagree - we already derailed the topic enough

[Charononus]

Downside of being Hoid: You're hunted wherever you go, have no one who's close to you, sixteen of your friends are basically deity and don't get in touch anymore, with the exception of one who was the bad one when he hadn't taken the piece of Adonalsium that had the intent of never ending hatred. Also, with the exception of Rayse and whatever Endowment's name is, all the ones we've seen are dead or died a long time ago. Leras and Ati died. But, on the upside, you have magic powers from almost every one of your friends' homes you've visited.

Wow. When put that way, it's no wonder why Hoid is never serious for more than about five or ten minutes. It's the only thing keeping him from succumbing to the loss, the loneliness, and the seeming futility of whatever he's trying to do.

So Hoid is the Doctor?  =P

 

To answer the thread,  I'd go for being a Fullborn,  even if I had to spike people to do it.

[baby]

The way I see it, Lift being spiked with double bendalloy has no adverse affect on her ability to convert nutrition into storm light. She eats some stuff, stores in a metalmind, burns that, and voila. Storm light compounding. The only way it's working is Lifts unique ability to do that.

[Yata]

Yeah but this works because she may "burn calories" to get Stormlight (from uknown source) like an Allomancer burn metals as a gateway to Preservation power.

 

It's quite different from "Compounding Breaths". There isn't any kind of trasformation from Preservation's Power to Endowment power here. Because the calories would vanish and return to Preservation (as Investiture)

[DSC01]

My idea was that if you tried to Compound a Breath, the power would remain Preservation's. The Breath from Endowment would serve as a template to "teach" Preservation's Investiture to behave like Breath, but it doesn't suddenly become Endowment's.