*Shadows of Self Spoilers* Anyone Else Think Harmony is Messed up?

[NovaSeeker]

Really? I could have sworn that it was stated that Harmony pressured her, but eventually had to control her, and that's why she went so far as to actually remove a spike.

 

Personally I think that makes far more sense. Even my reading and/or memory is wrong, and TenSoon and Melaan do explicitly say that Harmony never directly controlled her, then it's currently my theory that they are being lied to by Harmony. The sudden jerk that "killed" Lessie in Alloy of Law was just too perfect. It read like an Atium dodge.

 

And I think it makes more sense that way for Paalm to go crazy with grief over losing her identiy as Wax's wife because she was meat-puppetted by her god, then remove a spike and try to take him down.

[Kaymyth]

Really? I could have sworn that it was stated that Harmony pressured her, but eventually had to control her, and that's why she went so far as to actually remove a spike.

 

Personally I think that makes far more sense. Even my reading and/or memory is wrong, and TenSoon and Melaan do explicitly say that Harmony never directly controlled her, then it's currently my theory that they are being lied to by Harmony. The sudden jerk that "killed" Lessie in Alloy of Law was just too perfect. It read like an Atium dodge.

 

And I think it makes more sense that way for Paalm to go crazy with grief over losing her identiy as Wax's wife because she was meat-puppetted by her god, then remove a spike and try to take him down.

 

I think it's more likely that Bloody Tan was an agent of Trell - his weird serial killer stuff reeks to me of Hemalurgy study.  Trell had to figure out how to use those weird godmetal spikes. 

 

Brandon has said that Tan wasn't an atium misting, but I don't think anyone's asked him if he was actually spiked for atium or (more likely) electrum.  I think Tan spiked Paalm before she was "killed" to get Trell into her head.

[NovaSeeker]

So the theory is that Bloody Tan spiked Lessie, then took her hostage, then used a hemalurgical-granted Atium-like power to "kill" her. (I don't think Electrum works. Wax would have had to be the one burning Electrum for Tan to see exactly when he would fire.)

 

Hmm. I dunno. Could be. The weird religious stuff Tan was spouting could be connected to Trell, but he was also talking about Ironeyes with reverence, and he is part of Harmony's "religion". Also, Lord Mistborn was an advocate for Hemalurgy, and unless something else comes along to hint it, I don't think there's any indicator that he was being influenced by Trell when he wrote the book Ironeyes gave to Marasi.

[Pathfinder]

So the theory is that Bloody Tan spiked Lessie, then took her hostage, then used a hemalurgical-granted Atium-like power to "kill" her. (I don't think Electrum works. Wax would have had to be the one burning Electrum for Tan to see exactly when he would fire.)

 

Hmm. I dunno. Could be. The weird religious stuff Tan was spouting could be connected to Trell, but he was also talking about Ironeyes with reverence, and he is part of Harmony's "religion". Also, Lord Mistborn was an advocate for Hemalurgy, and unless something else comes along to hint it, I don't think there's any indicator that he was being influenced by Trell when he wrote the book Ironeyes gave to Marasi.

I do not think he was necessarily speaking about them with reverence. He named each of them, and then continued on to say how we are all puppets and they all move us. In my mind at least, if i was devoted to my religion, I do not feel I would view myself as a puppet of my deity. Maybe say it guides us, or moves in mysterious ways, but saying I am a puppet certainly carries a negative connotation. 

[Kaymyth]

So the theory is that Bloody Tan spiked Lessie, then took her hostage, then used a hemalurgical-granted Atium-like power to "kill" her. (I don't think Electrum works. Wax would have had to be the one burning Electrum for Tan to see exactly when he would fire.)

 

Hmm. I dunno. Could be. The weird religious stuff Tan was spouting could be connected to Trell, but he was also talking about Ironeyes with reverence, and he is part of Harmony's "religion". Also, Lord Mistborn was an advocate for Hemalurgy, and unless something else comes along to hint it, I don't think there's any indicator that he was being influenced by Trell when he wrote the book Ironeyes gave to Marasi.

 

Electrum would work just fine.  Tan would have "seen" himself fall back dead a split second before it happened, and pulled Lessie into the line of sight.

 

And there's no way Wax could have seen anything if Tan was burning electrum.    It shows you your own future, whereas atium shows you that of other people.  But in both cases, *you* have to be the one burning the metal.

[NovaSeeker]

Is that how Electrum works? Would that produce the "copies ad infinitum" feedback loop with Atium? Man. Screwing with time gives me a headache.

[Pathfinder]

Is that how Electrum works? Would that produce the "copies ad infinitum" feedback loop with Atium? Man. Screwing with time gives me a headache.

That is exactly why Vin and Elend used Electrum in the last book of the original trilogy. It was the poor man's counter to atium because of the feedback loop. 

[NovaSeeker]

I know that Electrum used as a counter to Atium because of the feedback-loop visual effect. I just... hm. The mechanics of Electrum were never explained, so I thought that burning electrum always resulted in an array of future-shadows that anyone could see, and it only appeared to be a feedback loop to Atium users. It was "poor man's Atium", so I didn't think it provided an actual benefit on its own (Allowing you to see your future and avoid futures that result in your death.) Otherwise they'd be burning Electrum a whole lot more, because it would be the perfect defense against ALL incoming danger.

 

Has there been a canonical example of someone burning Electrum when they were not up against an Atium-burner?

Edited February 5, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[Pathfinder]

I know that Electrum used as a counter to Atium because of the feedback-loop visual effect. I just... hm. The mechanics of Electrum were never explained, so I thought that burning electrum always resulted in an array of future-shadows that anyone could see, and it only appeared to be a feedback loop to Atium users. It was "poor man's Atium", so I didn't think it provided an actual benefit on its own (Allowing you to see your future and avoid futures that result in your death.) Otherwise they'd be burning Electrum a whole lot more, because it would be the perfect defense against ALL incoming danger.

 

Has there been a canonical example of someone burning Electrum when they were not up against an Atium-burner?

Vin does explain that in the last mistborn book. I will pull up the quote, and edit the post to reflect it. 

 

Hero of Ages page 28 Kindle Edition "Vin burned electrum. This created a cloud of images around her, shadows of possible things she could do in the future. Electrum, the Allomantic complement of gold. Elend had started calling it "poor man's atium." It wouldn't affect the battle much, other than to make her immune to atium, should the Inquisitor have any. 

 

Hero of Ages page 42 Kindle Edition "Electrum didn't grant the same invincibility as atium which allowed an Allomancer to see slighty into the future, but it did make one immune to atium"

 

So basically electrum lets only you see your own possible futures, but doesn't necessarily give you that extreme sixth sense atium does. So it is not useless, and though not as powerful as atium it does counter it and does help. 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[NovaSeeker]

Right, from the first excerpt, it sounds like burning Electrum always produces a cloud of possible futures. And as you say, it gives you no sixth sense for dealing with all that information.

 

Meaning Bloody Tan burning Electrum would still have no idea when to jerk Lessie into the line of fire.

Edited February 5, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[DreamEternal]

Right, from the first excerpt, it sounds like burning Electrum always produces a cloud of possible futures. And as you say, it gives you no sixth sense for dealing with all that information.

Meaning Bloody Tan burning Electrum would still have no idea when to jerk Lessie into the line of fire.

Unless he had feruchemical zinc. An inhumanly fast mind could possibly extract some information from the images.

[NovaSeeker]

It's not about speed of processing it's about number of options. Burning Electrum produces a "cloud" of possible futures. Increased mental processing speed would let you calculate the exact number of possible futures that cloud is made up of, but it wouldn't let you determine which single shadow from that cloud is the "real" future upon which to act.

 

(Though if it did, this twinborn A:Electrum/F:Zinc combination would essentially be as good as Atium. Better, even, because you could calculate through the "infinite feedback loop" of true Atium. Would make for a really cool character/villain like Miles Hundredlives.)

Edited February 5, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[DreamEternal]

It's not about speed of processing it's about number of options. Burning Electrum produces a "cloud" of possible futures. Increased mental processing speed would let you calculate the exact number of possible futures that cloud is made up of, but it wouldn't let you determine which single shadow from that cloud is the "real" future upon which to act.

But it would let you see what most futures have in common, making you able to know the most likely outcome.

[Pathfinder]

I would say at least in this particular situation, there are not that many possible futures for Tan to pick from. When fighting on a battlefield, with koloss running around, and an Inquisitor with multiple powers facing you, there are going to be a lot of possibilities, but standing still, with a person pointing a gun at you, I think the number of possibilities are much more reduced. But that is just my opinion, nothing in the books to base that on. 

[NovaSeeker]

Okay, lets say you're right. Bloody Tan is a twinborn with allomantic electrum and feruchemical zinc. Why'd he let himself get shot in the head right after Lessie? Conveniently ran out of metalmind processing? Just a psycho? Secretly another corrupted kandra?

 

I think the simplest answer is that he isn't any of those (well, except psycho). I think it requires far less justification to simply say "Harmony jerked Paalm in the way with her own body because, hey, it wouldn't actually kill her, and the loss of 'Lessie' would make Wax return to Elendel where he needs to be to avert a major catastrophe."

 

Paalm does accuse Harmony of "making [Wax] kill her". I do not believe she is talking about his current hunt of Bleeder. (Melaan was adamant about the kandra actually wanting to capture and care for her). And I do not believe she is lying here. Harmony forced Wax to kill Lessie.

[Pathfinder]

Okay, lets say you're right. Bloody Tan is a twinborn with allomantic electrum and feruchemical zinc. Why'd he let himself get shot in the head right after Lessie? Conveniently ran out of metalmind processing? Just a psycho? Secretly another corrupted kandra?

 

I think the simplest answer is that he isn't any of those (well, except psycho). I think it requires far less justification to simply say "Harmony jerked Paalm in the way with her own body because, hey, it wouldn't actually kill her, and the loss of 'Lessie' would make Wax return to Elendel where he needs to be to avert a major catastrophe."

 

Paalm does accuse Harmony of "making [Wax] kill her". I do not believe she is talking about his current hunt of Bleeder. (Melaan was adamant about the kandra actually wanting to capture and care for her). And I do not believe she is lying here. Harmony forced Wax to kill Lessie.

The faulty part with this logic is that you say the simplest answer is to say Harmony made her get herself killed. TenSoon says Harmony never controlled her. Following the simplest answer line of reasoning, for us to have to figure out that either TenSoon is lying, or that Harmony is lying over complicates things. The simplest answer would be to believe TenSoon who up until that point never lied to Wax, and gave him no reason to distrust him. For that matter, if Harmony has no problem controlling people and then lying about it when it suits him, then why not spike Wax like Spook got spiked by Ruin, and control him? 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[NovaSeeker]

I think a lie is simpler than finding out which one of 256 possible twinborn combinations Bloody Tan needed to be to just happen to be able to pull off an impossibly fast maneuver to kill Lessie, and then subsequently ignore that same ability to save his own life.

 

Do I think that Harmony can lie? Yes. I do. Harmony never claimed to be infallible, and he is equal parts Ruin and Preservation, with a dash of Sazed. All of which lied. (Sazed lied to save Elend and Vin from Luthadel's fall. Preservation lied about the deal to let Ruin destroy the world. And Ruin lied to everybody and everything). So do I think it's internally consistent for Harmony to tell choice lies so that his chosen Sword (Wax) will follow a life path that results in a net positive (stopping what needs to be stopped)? Yes, I do believe that's entirely consistent with Sazed, Ruin, and Preservation. It doesn't mean that he would automatically resort to lies and forced control at all times like Ruin. It means he, like Sazed and Preservation, are not above lying in certain circumstances for the "greater good".

[Pathfinder]

I think a lie is simpler than finding out which one of 256 possible twinborn combinations Bloody Tan needed to be to just happen to be able to pull off an impossibly fast maneuver to kill Lessie, and then subsequently ignore that same ability to save his own life.

 

Do I think that Harmony can lie? Yes. I do. Harmony never claimed to be infallible, and he is equal parts Ruin and Preservation, with a dash of Sazed. All of which lied. (Sazed lied to save Elend and Vin from Luthadel's fall. Preservation lied about the deal to let Ruin destroy the world. And Ruin lied to everybody and everything). So do I think it's internally consistent for Harmony to tell choice lies so that his chosen Sword (Wax) will follow a life path that results in a net positive (stopping what needs to be stopped)? Yes, I do believe that's entirely consistent with Sazed, Ruin, and Preservation. It doesn't mean that he would automatically resort to lies and forced control at all times like Ruin. It means he, like Sazed and Preservation, are not above lying in certain circumstances for the "greater good".

I respect your opinion, and based on your theory that is based on that premise, it is well reasoned and will not push otherwise. I cannot definitively prove that Harmony did not lie based on the information we have. All I can say is that it was stated by a character in world that he did not. Let me know when you have read Bands of Mourning, and I will be happy to continue this discussion in that spoiler board. To be clear, nothing I have said in my arguments is a spoiler for anything in that book nor have I drawn anything from that book into this thread to argue in favor of Harmony. Finally my mention of Bands of Mourning should not be taken as confirmation one way or the other regarding Harmony. Please take this post as completely separate from all things Bands of Mourning. I merely stated that I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter after having read the subsequent book. Hopefully that explanation covered all bases lol whew

Edited February 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[NovaSeeker]

lol thanks Pathfinder.

 

I'm about a third of the way through Bands of Mourning, so I'll see you there soon! 

[Pathfinder]

lol thanks Pathfinder.

 

I'm about a third of the way through Bands of Mourning, so I'll see you there soon! 

enjoy!

[Kaymyth]

I respect your opinion, and based on your theory that is based on that premise, it is well reasoned and will not push otherwise. I cannot definitively prove that Harmony did not lie based on the information we have. All I can say is that it was stated by a character in world that he did not. Let me know when you have read Bands of Mourning, and I will be happy to continue this discussion in that spoiler board. To be clear, nothing I have said in my arguments is a spoiler for anything in that book nor have I drawn anything from that book into this thread to argue in favor of Harmony. Finally my mention of Bands of Mourning should not be taken as confirmation one way or the other regarding Harmony. Please take this post as completely separate from all things Bands of Mourning. I merely stated that I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter after having read the subsequent book. Hopefully that explanation covered all bases lol whew

 

That was almost as epic as the Dark Alley's standard disclaimer. 

[Left]

Right now, I'm leaning towards Tan being a Handwavium misting.

[natc]

There's still the option of dumb luck . . . boring one, but still.

I suspect Trell personally.

To be honest, the fact that the feedback loop even occurs suggests to me that atium and electrum allomancers actually can still interpret individual shadows in the cloud to some very minimal extent. After all, it's them having knowledge of each shadow's future that changes the future possibilities and creates a new shadow. They'll just probably almost all be wrong. But in a simple situation like staring down a gun, there's probably going to be several that say "Tan's head got shot" spread over a general area of space. Wax is a pretty good shot, it won't go too wild.

Edited February 6, 2016 by natc