Vin at the WoA

[DocHoliday]

Something that occurred to me while reading about Darnam' s ideas  concerning the South Pole.

 

Presumably, TLR knew the Well would refill over time. He planned to retake the power and start the whole process over again, to prevent Ruin's escape.

 

Although the Terris religion believed in Preservation and Ruin, I don't recall wether or not it propagated the idea that they were at the WoA itself.

 

This means that Rashek learned of the Well' s purpose ​from  the Well itself.

 

So why did Vin release Ruin?

 

I thought at first that Vin simply hadn't absorbed that knowledge yet.

On second consideration however, I realized that time is severely distorted for anyone holding the power of Preservation.

 

In HoA Harmony mentions that TLR held the Well for mere moments, but to TLR those moments are stretched almost infinitely. 

 

Is this an oversight? Or am I forgetting something?

[Oudeis]

?? I'm not sure I understand your question.

 

Vin's intent wasn't, "I'm going to go to the Well now, where Preservation has trapped Ruin, and perform whatever action is necessary in order to release Ruin."

 

Ruin's limited ability to affect the world allowed him to modify the Terris prophecies. Vin, believing the validity of the prophecies, received the following instructions: "Go to the Well, access the power, and release it." She did those actions. She had no idea doing so would release anyone, let alone Ruin himself. At this point she still didn't know what Ruin is, and did not suspect the existence of such a being.

 

Does that answer your question?

[Quiver]

I don't have my copy of WoA to hand, but doesn't Ruin communicate with Vin during those moments, posing as a benign force? That had an influence over her freeing him I believe.

Also, I recall a topic here discussing the Mist Shade being Black in Alendis time, but White in Vins. Perhaps when Rashek reached the Well, it was Preservation he communicated with?

[Gamma Fiend]

And also I believe Rashek was under instructions to take the power for himself. Only after he took the power did he learn everything, I would assume.
Just holding it for that mere second like Vin did didn't give her any knowledge or power, only the ability or take or release that power.

She was under the assumption releasing it would be the good thing to do.  I believe Rashek was told by Kwaan he musn't let Alendi release the power, so he took it.

[dyring]

Yup. Rashek almost certainly didnt learn anything from the WoA until he actually took the power for himself, wich Vin never did. Basically, what Vin got when she ascended in the last book Rashek got at the WoA, but only for a short time. 

[DocHoliday]

I think Gamma had the best answer as she didn't technically 'take' the power quite yet. I just recalled that she was being flooded with knowledge like how to heal Elend and assumed that nugget was in there.

[Shardlet]

No, the mist spirit indicated that Elend should consume the nugget after Vin took up and released the power.  She did not gain any knowledge of it from the power.

[Vortaan]

I got the impression that Kwaan had a lot to do with Rashek taking the power and not releasing it. He did expressly put Rashek with Alendi to prevent that exact situation, so I would think that a quick: "Hey, by the by, if you DO need to kill Alendi, don't release the power cause thar be evil in that thar well" would have been warranted.

[Oudeis]

I think Gamma had the best answer as she didn't technically 'take' the power quite yet. I just recalled that she was being flooded with knowledge like how to heal Elend and assumed that nugget was in there.

 

 

No, the mist spirit indicated that Elend should consume the nugget after Vin took up and released the power.  She did not gain any knowledge of it from the power.

 

I could be mistaken, but I believe Doc didn't mean "information about the nugget of lerasium," I assume he meant, "that little nugget of information," i.e., the fact that the well was Ruin's prison.

[DocHoliday]

I could be mistaken, but I believe Doc didn't mean "information about the nugget of lerasium," I assume he meant, "that little nugget of information," i.e., the fact that the well was Ruin's prison.

Yes sir.

 

 It's expressly stated that Vin had the sudden revelation that she could heal Elend' s injuries.

I took this to mean Preservation was giving her knowledge.

 

With Gamma' s  input I think that the nugget( that the Well was serving as a prison) simply wasn't imparted

[name_here]

Kwaan had figured out that the well was a prison and that the prophecies were being tampered with to trick Alendi into opening it, so Rashek probably learned some of it from him. I got the impression that Rashek figured out the whole story about halfway through using the power, since he made Koloss and Inquisitors first, then made Kandra and set up the last-minute doublecross.

[Oudeis]

Kwaan had figured out that the well was a prison and that the prophecies were being tampered with to trick Alendi into opening it,

 

I'm not sure I agree. I think he knew that the prophecies used to say that he must use the power, but now say he must release the power. I don't think it says anywhere that he knew specifically what would happen if the power were released, just that it would be bad.

[Shardlet]

Agreed.  Kwaan's emphatic tone likely stemmed from knowing that the info in metalminds once said one thing and now says something different and that means that something powerful is trying to manipulate them.   

[Vortaan]

I'm not sure I agree. I think he knew that the prophecies used to say that he must use the power, but now say he must release the power. I don't think it says anywhere that he knew specifically what would happen if the power were released, just that it would be bad.

 

From the Coppermind, end of Kwaan's inscription:

 

Alendi must not reach the Well of Ascension, for he must not be allowed to release the thing that is imprisoned there. ”

 

 

So he knew what was going to happen, and probably passed that along to Rashek. How far along during the Ascension Rahsek figured out the Hemalurgic double cross is debatable. Actually, secondary question: where do you think he got the spikes for the first kandra/koloss/Inquisitors? He probably couldn't have made them with Preservation's power, so... where'd they come from? Ruin?

[Shardlet]

upvote for the very pertinent quotiness.

 

The first generation does not apparently have spikes.  If they do, then he created the spikes while using the power of Preservation.  As to the Koloss and the Inquisitors, if he directly created them while using the power of Preservation, then he would have to likewise directly create the spikes.  I suppose it could be he learned how when using the power and then actually created them afterwards using spikes made from people.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Shardlet

[Vortaan]

upvote for the very pertinent quotiness.

 

The first generation does not apparently have spikes.  If they do, then he created the spikes while using the power of Preservation.  As to the Koloss and the Inquisitors, if he directly created them while using the power of Preservation, then he would have to likewise directly create the spikes.  I suppose it could be he learned how when using the power and then actually created them afterwards using spikes made from people.

 

First Generation had to have spikes. Sazed sees one of them crawling around like a mistwraith immediately after the Resolution

[Oudeis]

From the Coppermind, end of Kwaan's inscription:

 

 

So he knew what was going to happen, and probably passed that along to Rashek. How far along during the Ascension Rahsek figured out the Hemalurgic double cross is debatable. Actually, secondary question: where do you think he got the spikes for the first kandra/koloss/Inquisitors? He probably couldn't have made them with Preservation's power, so... where'd they come from? Ruin?

 

Well done; my mistake. I now have no idea how Kwaan could have known that, unless the prophecies left by Terr really were that specific.

 

There's a WoB somewhere... someone asked if Ruin could power allomancy the way preservation did, and his answer was something like, "Either of the Shards could power all three arts, but Ruin is better at Hemalurgy and Preservation is better at Allomancy." He may even have implied that any shard could directly power any art native to any shardworld. That'd be a thing... Imagine if Wayne learned a few Aons, and just once Harmony decided to directly power one for him....

[WeiryWriter]

There's a WoB somewhere... someone asked if Ruin could power allomancy the way preservation did, and his answer was something like, "Either of the Shards could power all three arts, but Ruin is better at Hemalurgy and Preservation is better at Allomancy." He may even have implied that any shard could directly power any art native to any shardworld. That'd be a thing... Imagine if Wayne learned a few Aons, and just once Harmony decided to directly power one for him....

The quote in question:

 

Czanos (17 October 2008)

Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (Minus Atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or Atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

(source)

 

I agree that shards can directly fuel any magic system, though not as efficiently as their own systems.  Getting AonDor to work though would probably be fairly tricky.

[Oudeis]

Spoilers for Steelhunt/WOR Readings material:

 

I wonder if this has any connection to Cultivation granting Lift an ability that looks suspiciously close to allomancy...

 

Actually, there's a thought. On Scadrial, people have magic because of a direct adaptation of their spiritweb. In the case of surgebinders on Roshar, the power comes from an external bond. Kaladin would return to normal if he unbonded with Syl. Is it possible that the adaptation to an allomancer's spiritweb puts them partially in the cognitive realm, the way Wyndle thinks happened to Lift? Externally, there's nothing specific about Lift that would inform anyone that she's "partially in the cognitive realm"; all she knows is, she can turn food into Stormlight, and touch Spren. Since magic works entirely differently on Scadrial, and since there are no spren there to test it on, maybe every allomancer could do what Lift does, maybe any of them could climb on Wyndle's vines.

[Vortaan]

The quote in question:

 

(source)

 

I agree that shards can directly fuel any magic system, though not as efficiently as their own systems.  Getting AonDor to work though would probably be fairly tricky.

 

Wait a second. Have we stumbled maybe onto how Odium shatters a Shard? The way he does it is apparently draining... could his own self-hatred or hatred of others push him past this reluctance that other Shards have? We've seen what happens when two Shards that are antithetical are forced to interact. What happens when you inject a force of hatred into a power fueled by Devotion?

[Oudeis]

?? Isn't that what Vin does? And it ensured mutual destruction. What's special about Odium that he'd survive? And how did he splinter Dominion or Honor, neither of which are as antithetical? Also, Odium is rather 'devoted' to his own cause. Is Devotion truly that directly antithetical to his Intent?

[Shardlet]

IDK, that seems a bit like saying a reservoir becomes corrupted or poisoned because of a poison addition downstream of the reservoir.

[Moogle]

Shards control how their power is accessed (in part), so I don't think that it would affect normal users of a magic. In this analogy, it'd be more like having two reservoirs, I think.

[Vortaan]

I wonder though. If a bit of Odium made it into Devotion or Dominion, could that change their Intent enough that it causes them to self-destruct? IT would probably be a really long process, but the thing about hatred is that you can conceivably fit a lot of Intents into it without changing the core of what it means. I think perhaps that Odium's main advantage is that his Intent is a little bit more inclusive than a lot of others.

 

To use the reservoir analogy, it'd be like adding self-replicating Kool-aid to the reservoir. It'll take awhile, but sooner or later the whole reservoir would be Kool-aid, unless you flushed the whole thing and started fresh. 

[Oudeis]

But none of that sounds like shattering. If the powers are anti-thetical enough that it'd break Devotion, then wouldn't that one scrap be destroyed in the far-greater power that is Devotion? Also, since Odium wants to be the most powerful being in the Cosmere, why would he start giving up bits of his own power? And keep in mind, Devotion wasn't some static thing that sat there waiting to be killed. By your idea, that'd be like if you said, "what if I came over and gnawed on your arm a little every day? Sure, no single bite would be enough to kill you, but after a few weeks I'd've opened enough wounds to bleed you out." Why wouldn't Devotion do something about that? How did anyone force Odium into a pact, if all he had to do was sit around shooting you with Odium-pellets until you die?