Ugouka he/him Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 So, we know that as you get further from Elantris, Aons get weaker. The exact reasoning behind this isn't clear yet, but WoB has implied that it isn't related to Dominion, as most people thought originally. So, how was Galladon able to appear on Roshar without looking like an Elantrian? Almost as if he has some Aon Shao (Transformation/Illusion) on his face or something.. I've been really bothered by this for quite a while, trying to figure out how in the world you could get Sellish magic off of Sel. Especially since we know that Sel is one of the most Cosmere aware planets out there! What I'm thinking is this: Batteries. We know from Elantris that Aons can be drawn, given power, and used repeatedly, basically whenever. They just draw some juice from the Dor, and actuate. (I also read that if a Seon is slightly modified to include the chasm line, they could actuate their Aon a lot more effectively, which is also another possiblility I'll talk about later) So, take a stick. (No, not that stick. He's just a stick.) Now, carve Aon Rao onto it. This is the Aon for Spirit, or Essence. I'm thinking that you could use this Aon to draw in some power, and hold it, kind of like a metalmind, in a sense. You would then have amplifying instructions in the Aon to produce the desired effect. Example, take your stick, carve Aon Rao Ehe into it, with the desired modifiers, and you'd have a stick that launched a set amount of fireballs. Basically, crude enchantment. Now we don't have any evidence for this other than the basic mechanics of the magic that we've seen, so I realize it's a pretty thin theory, but we do know Galladon figured something out. Another way I've been pondering is the Seons/Skaze. Remember what I said earlier about a Seon with the chasm line? Yeah. They're splinters. They have their own internal power cut off from their shard. What if Elantrians have learned to make Seons again? Pump out a few Seon 'Shao's and you'd have a free disguise off planet. While I realize this isn't exactly diverse, it could allow simple things with only one or two seons helping you. Just my thoughts. I'm sure there are some holes, but as always, I appreciate people pointing them out so I can revise or give up on my theories. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 I was assuming that the reason he didn't look like an Elantrian is the same reason he couldn't use Aons, he's too far away from Elantris to even have the passive Elantrian abilities. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khyrindor he/him Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 I think it was basically confirmed that Devotion and Dominion were splintered in the Cognitive Realm, so you can only access their power locally where it lines up. Most Shards dwell in the Spiritual Realm and so you can access their power everywhere. Sel lacks that, so if you get too far away from the buildup of power on the Cognitive side of things, the power gets weaker. Brandon has said that you can't use their power on other planets. "Can't" sounding definite. I agree with Voidus that Galladon just lost his powers while of world and appeared normal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbSombrero he/him Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 Brandon has also said though, that there is a hack to make the magic work off world. It takes some finangling though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 Brandon has also said though, that there is a hack to make the magic work off world. It takes some finangling though. Yeah but we don't know if "the hack" give you the ability to access the Dor offplanet or you "simply" uses another source of power. A few months ago I thought about the Seon's Bond as a tool to use Sel's Magic offplanet. But it's a lot speculative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path he/him Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 Yeah but we don't know if "the hack" give you the ability to access the Dor offplanet or you "simply" uses another source of power. A few months ago I thought about the Seon's Bond as a tool to use Sel's Magic offplanet. But it's a lot speculative. Some possibilities: The hack involves sending Dor to another shardworld, maybe with some sort of transmission station back on Sel. The hack involves carrying an amount of Dor with you when you worldhop, like in a nicrosilmind, for instance.(similar to a nicrosilmind anyway, since it would be extremely unlikely for an Elantrian to have an actual one) The hack involves changing where Aons draw their power from.This might be difficult, since Aons normally draw their power from the Cognitive realm: all other external sources of investiture we have seen so far (Preservation's power, Stormlight and maybe Breath*) are Spiritual in nature, not Cognitive. It wouldn't be sufficient to simply change your connection so that it's to the non-Sel planet, since that planet wouldn't have a form of Dor in its Cognitive realm. So you'd also need a way to convert the local investiture to a form that can be used in AonDor. The hack involves hemalurgy. The hack involves the Moon Scepter (stolen by Hoid), which can supposedly translate the different shapes Selish magics use to access the Dor. Though it is unknown if that extends to other worlds and/or other power sources. *I am quite sure that Breath is Spiritual in nature, it's the "external" part I'm doubting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 We strongly suspect (the WoBs basically overwhelmingly almost-but-not-quite state that it is the case) that the Dor cannot be used off-world because the Dor's energy is tied up in the Cognitive, compared to something like Allomancy (usable anywhere because it draws energy from the Spiritual). As to Galladon, we know that he doesn't appear like an Elantrian because Elantris light up due to the Dor. No Dor, no Elantrian appearance - he's (probably not) using an Aon in TWoK. Yourigath Woah! Thank you. You just destroyed most of my theories about magic on Cosmere, but that's great (that means I'll have to do new theorycrafting)! May I ask you another question? Knowing that you can only access the Dor from Sel. If an Elantrian worldhops does it returns to a normal human pre-Shaod state? If this Elantrian goes back to Sel it recovers his Elantrian powers or he keeps his pre-Shaod form?mistborn[S] An Elantrian away from Sel would still be an Elantrian--but many of the visible signs would fade away, much like something florescent that stops glowing when moved away from a Black Light.(source) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 What if the way to use Aons on Roshar (chosen for simplicity) is by drawing the symbols of the Knights Radiant orders, with the Double Eye of the Almighty being the basis. Either that, or simply draw the glyphs for the Surges, and maybe the Voidbonding Surges as well, should you get bored. Aon use on Scadrial may involve drawing the symbols of the metals, with appropriate modifiers for strength, etc. I'm going off of a personal theory I just thought of that the way to use Aons on non-Sel worlds is right in front of us. Who says it has to be based on geography? That could just be on Sel. Or, I'm completely delusional and need to sleep. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) What if the way to use Aons on Roshar (chosen for simplicity) is by drawing the symbols of the Knights Radiant orders, with the Double Eye of the Almighty being the basis. Either that, or simply draw the glyphs for the Surges, and maybe the Voidbonding Surges as well, should you get bored. Aon use on Scadrial may involve drawing the symbols of the metals, with appropriate modifiers for strength, etc. I'm going off of a personal theory I just thought of that the way to use Aons on non-Sel worlds is right in front of us. Who says it has to be based on geography? That could just be on Sel. Or, I'm completely delusional and need to sleep. Or, I'm com It's unlikely because the Dor don't reach so far place. Your point may be good if you speak about something like: An Elantrian goes to the Rose Empire and use an appropriate simbol (as the Forgery) to drawn the "local dor" but using in the AonDor. In this case you are right (and probably is the exact purpose of the Moon Septre). But far from Sel there isn't "local Dor". Edited December 20, 2015 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton of Unorthodoxy he/him Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 What if the way to use Aons on Roshar (chosen for simplicity) is by drawing the symbols of the Knights Radiant orders, with the Double Eye of the Almighty being the basis. Either that, or simply draw the glyphs for the Surges, and maybe the Voidbonding Surges as well, should you get bored. Aon use on Scadrial may involve drawing the symbols of the metals, with appropriate modifiers for strength, etc. While I am intrigued by that theory, it doesn't quite seem to have the ring of truth. My main qualm is this; if the symbols are interchangeable based on the worlds (or shards?) they're being used on/near, why are Aons most effective in Elantris, decreasing exponentially everywhere else. Would that limitation still exist on another shardworld? Say... On Roshar, would you need to use the Radiants' symbols near their centre of power (The spire)? I mean, I suppose you could say Sel's magic is just ubsurdly complex for whatever reason. I mean they have, what, four semi-distinct systems to use the dor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zathoth Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Theory time Galladon draws investiture from spheres. He draws an aon*, the aon draws power from where it can and uses up the sphere. On Scadrial he would probably need to stand in the mists to use aons, unless he can find a way to hack into the same source allomancers use (Which shouldn't be impossible considering how similar the systems are). Of course he needs some kind of hack to do this and we have not seen enough hacks of magic systems to actually figure out how it works, other than compounding and whatever it is Zahel does, but we dont know what he does. *Aon here meaning "Whatever symbol he needs to draw to access the power". What interests me the most is if different planets have different powers of their aons. Lets say drawing the symbol for steel causes pushes or he can still use Aon Tia, he just needs to figure out what the Scadrial version of Aon Tia looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari he/him Posted December 27, 2015 Report Share Posted December 27, 2015 What if the way to use Aons on Roshar (chosen for simplicity) is by drawing the symbols of the Knights Radiant orders, with the Double Eye of the Almighty being the basis. Either that, or simply draw the glyphs for the Surges, and maybe the Voidbonding Surges as well, should you get bored. Aon use on Scadrial may involve drawing the symbols of the metals, with appropriate modifiers for strength, etc. I'm going off of a personal theory I just thought of that the way to use Aons on non-Sel worlds is right in front of us. Who says it has to be based on geography? That could just be on Sel. Or, I'm completely delusional and need to sleep. If the theory that has been driven by implication from WoBs that the Dor is in the Cognitive Realm is correct, that wouldn't help at all. I can think of two USEFUL hacks. One is to convert local investiture into a power source for the Dor. Another is to use either stored Selish investiture or converted local investiture to construct a Spritual Realm "bridge" to the cognitive realm of Sel, and pump the investiture through that bridge to a similar "outpost" amplifier to Elantris. Flying spaceship city, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yurisses Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 Theory time Galladon draws investiture from spheres. He draws an aon*, the aon draws power from where it can and uses up the sphere. On Scadrial he would probably need to stand in the mists to use aons, unless he can find a way to hack into the same source allomancers use (Which shouldn't be impossible considering how similar the systems are). Of course he needs some kind of hack to do this and we have not seen enough hacks of magic systems to actually figure out how it works, other than compounding and whatever it is Zahel does, but we dont know what he does. *Aon here meaning "Whatever symbol he needs to draw to access the power". What interests me the most is if different planets have different powers of their aons. Lets say drawing the symbol for steel causes pushes or he can still use Aon Tia, he just needs to figure out what the Scadrial version of Aon Tia looks like. If Aons can only draw power from the Cognitive realm, they would fail to draw Stormlight (Spiritual-based?); but maybe spren themselves might be able to fuel Aons...??? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zathoth Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 If Aons can only draw power from the Cognitive realm, they would fail to draw Stormlight (Spiritual-based?); but maybe spren themselves might be able to fuel Aons...??? That is indeed a problem, you need to hack the magic so that it can draw power from another realm. The nahel bond is more like the focus of the power though, Syl cant power the surges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) Though Pattern can hold stormlight somehow so . . . hmm. Also, fabrials require spren to function. They definitely have some form of power by themselves. Edited December 29, 2015 by natc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Though Pattern can hold stormlight somehow so . . . hmm. Also, fabrials require spren to function. They definitely have some form of power by themselves. Yes, but they are more like a piece of the engine than the fuel or a hose the fuel flows throught. Maybe there could be a way to make a fabrial that sends investiture from the physical realm to the cognitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Yes, but they are more like a piece of the engine than the fuel or a hose the fuel flows throught. Maybe there could be a way to make a fabrial that sends investiture from the physical realm to the cognitive. I think you mean 'Soulcasters' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 I think you mean 'Soulcasters' Uh, not realy. I meant disperse it around or store it inside nearby cognitive aspects. With soulcaster the stormlight is used up instantly and returns to the circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) When Kaladin heals his Shardblade wound, he is sending Stormlight the Spiritual. It doesn't seem unlikely that he could similarly will it to the Cognitive so long as he comprehended what the Cognitive was. The bottom-left quadrant of Radiants probably would have an easier time at it, but Kaladin did see Shadesmar once... I am quite sure that Breath is Spiritual in nature, it's the "external" part I'm doubting. Recent WoB confirms that Breath is mostly Physical, though Divine Breaths are Spiritual. Which we might have suspected (though personally I agreed with you before reading the WoB), since Breath is gaseous and is transferred Physically. I'll edit in the WoB when I find it. Edit: [00:12:00] Questioner: With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths when they get to the other planets? Brandon: So, spikes rip off pieces of the soul, and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath, but I haven’t really decided on regular Breaths, they’re kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm, which is not something the spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath potentially, because that’s like something that’s actually melding on to your soul.(source) Edited December 31, 2015 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Yeah, I caught the Shadesmar bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 So it's currently hemalurgically feasible to be a living "Returned" of sorts? Interesting . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari he/him Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 So it's currently hemalurgically feasible to be a living "Returned" of sorts? Interesting . . . Heh, depends on exactly how having a Divine Breath works! It might be that you'd still die without regularly consuming investiture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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