First Step to Spren Revival

[stonetwotwo]

I skimmed through older threads about this topic, but couldn't find something similar. I might need to improve my searching though and sorry if I am restating something.

 

Revival is a task said to be very difficult by Sanderson. Working my way through the WoR reread I actually tried to do some thinking. My attention was caught when I thought about four things, none of the four are earth shattering just putting thoughts on paper.

 

First: A shardbearer needs 10 heartbeats to summon a shardblade into the ‘physical’ realm.

 

Second: Syl states that ‘The delay is primarily something of the dead’.

 

Three: Renarin hears screams from his shardblade. This implies a spren in ‘physical’ pain that might be due still being separated from its ‘spiritual’ and ‘cognitive’ parts.

 

Fourth: It takes a week or more to ‘physically’ bond a shardblade.

 

Now putting these together you get a ‘dead’ spren being revived into the ‘physical’ word by ten ‘physical’ heartbeats after a lengthy ‘physical’ bond, but not bringing the ‘spiritual’ or ‘cognitive’ parts of the spren with it. Has Brandon been teasing us with the first of three or more steps to fully reviving a Spren?

 

If you follow this logic what could possibly needed to bond with the ‘spiritual’ and ‘cognitive’ parts of a spren to fully revive it? I am then assuming that forming the other bonds would be much more difficult and almost impossible (i.e. try spending a week with a spren in the cognitive realm if you can’t even get there.)

 

My biggest problem with this thought is that when not bonded the blade resides in the ‘physical’ world.

Edited November 13, 2015 by stonetwotwo

[mirahound]

I skimmed through older threads about this topic, but couldn't find something similar. I might need to improve my searching though and sorry if I am restating something.

 

Revival is a task said to be very difficult by Sanderson. Working my way through the WoR reread I actually tried to do some thinking. My attention was caught when I thought about four things, none of the four are earth shattering just putting thoughts on paper.

 

First: A shardbearer needs 10 heartbeats to summon a shardblade into the ‘physical’ realm.

 

Second: Syl states that ‘The delay is primarily something of the dead’.

 

Three: Renarin hears screams from his shardblade. This implies a spren in ‘physical’ pain that might be due still being separated from its ‘spiritual’ and ‘cognitive’ parts.

 

Fourth: It takes a week or more to ‘physically’ bond a shardblade.

 

Now putting these together you get a ‘dead’ spren being revived into the ‘physical’ word by ten ‘physical’ heartbeats after a lengthy ‘physical’ bond, but not bringing the ‘spiritual’ or ‘cognitive’ parts of the spren with it. Has Brandon been teasing us with the first of three or more steps to fully reviving a Spren?

 

If you follow this logic what could possibly needed to bond with the ‘spiritual’ and ‘cognitive’ parts of a spren to fully revive it? I am then assuming that forming the other bonds would be much more difficult and almost impossible (i.e. try spending a week with a spren in the cognitive realm if you can’t even get there.)

 

My biggest problem with this thought is that when not bonded the blade resides in the ‘physical’ world.

Oooh, this is a fascinating line of thinking! My thought, following your reasoning, would be that somehow whoever tried to revive a Shardblade would need to "summon" them in each realm at the same time. The physical realm would probably be the ten heartbeats, and I'm thinking the spiritual realm would involve speaking the oaths. I'm... not sure how one would summon a Shardblade into the cognitive realm at the same time as the other two.

[Shardbearer]

This is similar to my own thoughts. I figured that the first step to reviving a Blade would be bonding with it using a gemstone, as modern shardbearers do. After that, saying the Oath's (and really believing them) would be another step in the process. And some other stuff that we don't know about yet. Maybe it's as simple as having the intent to wake up the spren while saying the Oaths.

[stonetwotwo]

Another thought, since ten is an important number. Reviving a Spren might include the following:

-10 Heartbeats to revive the body.

-10 Oaths to revive the spirit.

-10 Emotions/Feelings (?) to revive the cognitive.

 

I say emotions because emotions and feelings seem to summon spren from the cognitive realm when people are angry, in pain, etc. Of course these oaths and emotions will need to be very specific to the type of spren trying to revived. The same as each order of the radiants having different oaths. However, the oaths might also be different to the normal oaths as the task is not supposed to be easy. 

 

Considering difficulty, perhaps some of the emotions/feelings might involve feeling the spren's pain and overcoming it. Since the spren are shouting it might be that such a task is almost inhumanly difficult. Only a person with an intense desire to free a spren would be able to cope with such emotions/pain. This might be where Adolin can succeed as I can imagine him being able to take a lot of punishment in order to save something he cares deeply about. Since he already talks to his sword I can imagine trying everything to revive a spren once he learns that it is a trapped/deadish spren.

[maxal]

Another thought, since ten is an important number. Reviving a Spren might include the following:

-10 Heartbeats to revive the body.

-10 Oaths to revive the spirit.

-10 Emotions/Feelings (?) to revive the cognitive.

 

I say emotions because emotions and feelings seem to summon spren from the cognitive realm when people are angry, in pain, etc. Of course these oaths and emotions will need to be very specific to the type of spren trying to revived. The same as each order of the radiants having different oaths. However, the oaths might also be different to the normal oaths as the task is not supposed to be easy. 

 

Considering difficulty, perhaps some of the emotions/feelings might involve feeling the spren's pain and overcoming it. Since the spren are shouting it might be that such a task is almost inhumanly difficult. Only a person with an intense desire to free a spren would be able to cope with such emotions/pain. This might be where Adolin can succeed as I can imagine him being able to take a lot of punishment in order to save something he cares deeply about. Since he already talks to his sword I can imagine trying everything to revive a spren once he learns that it is a trapped/deadish spren.

 

One of the difficulty I foresee it managing to find the appropriate oaths without the guidance of a spren. In other words, Adolin would need to go onto a journey towards Radianhood without the direct support of a spren, without stormlight or surgebinding. He would need to learn the same lessons any Edgedancer needs to learn all by himself...

 

Just that makes it nearly impossible. Lift said the 2nd oath (presumably) in order to revive Gawx... Adolin can't have the same progression as what prompt Lift to save Gawx is the knowledge her surges could help him. If put in the same situation, Adolin wouldn't have learned the oath as he wouldn't have possess the power to make a difference.

 

Or look at Kaladin... He found his second oath trying to rescue Dalinar's army. It was not the decision to rescue that was the lesson, but the desire to do so while being inured. He said the oath, he healed himself and he fought like a mad man until they were all free. Adolin put in the same situation might have make the same initial decision (with an oath assorted to the Edgedancers and not the Windrunners), but he wouldn't have been able to carry on. Once injured, he's done. He wouldn't have the additional incentive to say more words, just as Syl always prompts Kaladin to speak up. 

 

We could also talk of Kaladin's third oath which he needed to lay near death striving to protect Elhokar before he could find it. Again, Adolin may easily give up his life to save people he holds dear or just helpless people (the forgotten), but he wouldn't have the power to heal himself: he would essentially die... Die as he says an oath not yet strong enough to revive the spren.

 

His lessons will have to come in a very unusual way. I agree it may involve a lot of physical pain, but moreover I see it as extremely dangerous as it would require him to put himself in the do or die situations we have seen the Radiants walk into when on the verge of discovering another oath without having the strength to survive. 

 

I agree Shallan's path is less tragic, but without Pattern insistence, she would have never unlocked her memories. Again, spren guidance is crucial.

 

We know saying the oaths only is ONE requirement to revive a dead spren and just that one is nearly impossible to achieve. I agree it is possible he may need to share and experience the spren's pain... which by itself is probably strong enough to kill him. Relis lost his mind simply by hearing the screams, what does feeling the pain does to you?

[stonetwotwo]

Thanks Maxal. You've expanded nicely on why the path to reviving a spren is nearly impossible. I was thinking along similar lines, but didn't take so much into account as you.

 

The one reason I think that there might be different oaths for reviving a spren is that if someone has already progressed to being a full Radiant of a certain order then it would make reviving a spren relatively easy or easier at least as they could guide someone. Though Sanderson might also have meant that it would be very difficult to revive a spren at the moment, perhaps once the secret formula is discovered it will become a lot easier to revive spren.

 

That begs another question. How nice will the newly revived spren be? Will they be grateful or hateful?

[maxal]

Thanks Maxal. You've expanded nicely on why the path to reviving a spren is nearly impossible. I was thinking along similar lines, but didn't take so much into account as you.

 

The one reason I think that there might be different oaths for reviving a spren is that if someone has already progressed to being a full Radiant of a certain order then it would make reviving a spren relatively easy or easier at least as they could guide someone. Though Sanderson might also have meant that it would be very difficult to revive a spren at the moment, perhaps once the secret formula is discovered it will become a lot easier to revive spren.

 

That begs another question. How nice will the newly revived spren be? Will they be grateful or hateful?

 

Not really... I somehow think the oaths were kept a secret which all knights had to find for themselves, if not, then it defies the purpose. Besides, Adolin wouldn't know his Blade belongs to the Edgedancer: he has no way to make the connection. Even if he were to try to spy into the oath of other Radiants, he still would not know which one to look for. All in all, he is completely in the dark.

 

I don't think reviving sprens will ever be easy. The special connection Adolin seem to have with his Blade, the fact he started treating it as a partner and live sentient years prior to knowing the truth, by pure instinct, cannot be faked nor reproduced with a purpose. I personally think Adolin's naivety when it comes to his Blade combined to his ability to see it through his inner child's eyes as an artifact to be revered greater than himself are going to be crucial. It is an Edgedancer Blade... It is because Adolin loves her it will work and this cannot be faked.

 

I also wonder if Adolin's "journey" (providing Brandon ever goes there, we are putting much faith into a story arc which has little chance of coming through) will be intentional. Is he going to do it on purpose or by accident?

 

Considering the ordeal Adolin would have to put himself through just to revive his Blade, I suspect it will be grateful and fiercely protective. It has just gotten back a conscience after centuries of torture: it won't want anyone to touch it's new knight for fear he would die.

[Cemci]

Not really... I somehow think the oaths were kept a secret which all knights had to find for themselves, if not, then it defies the purpose. Besides, Adolin wouldn't know his Blade belongs to the Edgedancer: he has no way to make the connection. Even if he were to try to spy into the oath of other Radiants, he still would not know which one to look for. All in all, he is completely in the dark.

 

The do have the Words of Radiance, which should yield some information about different orders - although I don't think this means that Adolin could identify his Blade or himself as Edgedancer or any other order. 

 

The first oath is commonly told to people - and I suspect that this one might be in Word of Radiance. But nobody was told any words other than the first oath - Syl prompts Kaladin several times, but she is unable to tell him the oath. The same would go for Adolin, who cannot directly communicate with his Blade. So, being close to almost every other Radiant we know of, I think it's a good guess Adolin could find out the first oath, but after that, he would be on his own. As an aside, we don't even know if Adolin wants to revive his Blade, or if he knows that it's possible. He questions what his role might become at the end of WoR, but so far as I can see, there is no indication that Adolin wishes he were a Radiant. If he wanted to become a Radiant, I don't think he would know where to start - the other Radiants had a spren following them, Adolin doesn't know enough about the Nahel bond to even know where to start with reviving his Blade. 

 

All of that leads me to believe that, if Adolin revives his Blade, he'll either do it almost on accident or in any case not with deliberate intent of reviving his Blade, or that he'll be instructed to revive his Blade because of some need. Unless the Words of Radiance book has a useful checklist of things to do a la: 'Here's what to do if you accidentally killed your Blade', I don't see how any other Radiant we know could help Adolin either. 

[Shardbearer]

I imagine it going something like this: Adolin learns that Shardblades are actually dead spren, then he sets out to find a way to revive his Blade.

[mirahound]

One of the difficulty I foresee it managing to find the appropriate oaths without the guidance of a spren. In other words, Adolin would need to go onto a journey towards Radianhood without the direct support of a spren, without stormlight or surgebinding. He would need to learn the same lessons any Edgedancer needs to learn all by himself...

 

Just that makes it nearly impossible. Lift said the 2nd oath (presumably) in order to revive Gawx... Adolin can't have the same progression as what prompt Lift to save Gawx is the knowledge her surges could help him. If put in the same situation, Adolin wouldn't have learned the oath as he wouldn't have possess the power to make a difference.

 

Or look at Kaladin... He found his second oath trying to rescue Dalinar's army. It was not the decision to rescue that was the lesson, but the desire to do so while being inured. He said the oath, he healed himself and he fought like a mad man until they were all free. Adolin put in the same situation might have make the same initial decision (with an oath assorted to the Edgedancers and not the Windrunners), but he wouldn't have been able to carry on. Once injured, he's done. He wouldn't have the additional incentive to say more words, just as Syl always prompts Kaladin to speak up. 

 

We could also talk of Kaladin's third oath which he needed to lay near death striving to protect Elhokar before he could find it. Again, Adolin may easily give up his life to save people he holds dear or just helpless people (the forgotten), but he wouldn't have the power to heal himself: he would essentially die... Die as he says an oath not yet strong enough to revive the spren.

 

His lessons will have to come in a very unusual way. I agree it may involve a lot of physical pain, but moreover I see it as extremely dangerous as it would require him to put himself in the do or die situations we have seen the Radiants walk into when on the verge of discovering another oath without having the strength to survive. 

 

I agree Shallan's path is less tragic, but without Pattern insistence, she would have never unlocked her memories. Again, spren guidance is crucial.

 

We know saying the oaths only is ONE requirement to revive a dead spren and just that one is nearly impossible to achieve. I agree it is possible he may need to share and experience the spren's pain... which by itself is probably strong enough to kill him. Relis lost his mind simply by hearing the screams, what does feeling the pain does to you?

Well, I'm not so sure. I mean, yeah, Kaladin was injured every time he said his oaths, but I attribute that more to him being stubborn and taking a long time to learn those oaths. And with Lift, she said her second oath because she wanted to help Gawx, not necessarily because she knew she could. I think it's completely plausible for Adolin - or anyone - to speak each of his oaths before reviving his spren. A spren isn't necessary to learning each of these lessons, they just make it easier by guiding you. If Adolin's character arc is going to be as difficult as I suspect, he might speak every one of them without even knowing what he was doing.

[maxal]

I imagine it going something like this: Adolin learns that Shardblades are actually dead spren, then he sets out to find a way to revive his Blade.

 

I think it is more likely he try to find a way to make it "right", to "fix it" which is pretty much what he has been doing for two books. However, I doubt he'll have "revival and thus become the spren new knight" in mind... More of a RIP kind of approach which would, as a result, revive the spren. 

 

I am quite sure it will be an accident and not one anyone will foresee.

 

 

Well, I'm not so sure. I mean, yeah, Kaladin was injured every time he said his oaths, but I attribute that more to him being stubborn and taking a long time to learn those oaths. And with Lift, she said her second oath because she wanted to help Gawx, not necessarily because she knew she could. I think it's completely plausible for Adolin - or anyone - to speak each of his oaths before reviving his spren. A spren isn't necessary to learning each of these lessons, they just make it easier by guiding you. If Adolin's character arc is going to be as difficult as I suspect, he might speak every one of them without even knowing what he was doing.

 

Lift only decided to help Gawx after figuring it out Regrowth could help him. She asked Wyndle and he answered. It is only after she decides to help him. Sure her questions sprouted froma a desire to help, but without the means to do so, she would have likely kept on running for her life. In other words, she discovered she may have the means to make a difference and she chose to. Adolin, within the same situation, wouldn't have the same means, hence he would have had no incentive to go back for a dead boy. The key to Lift's growth was she knew she had that power... Why go back towards the dead? Yes, she wanted to help him, but without the ability to do so, she would have never tried. It would have been pointless.

 

Kaladin does not strike me as more stubborn than Shallan or any other knight. Learning valuable life lessons never is easy and in the context of war, we can safely wager Adolin's figuring out oaths would be very dangerous and difficult for him.

 

I also disagree the sprens aren't necessary. Without them, our knights would have never progressed. Kaladin only said the words because Syl prompt him to, guided him towards the right one. She was clear saving Dalinar's army was the right choice even if she was unable to state it. When he lay injured she told him not to give up... As for the third oath, Kaladin needed to learn he had to protect Elhokar, but he couldn't before he was put into a direct situation of conflict due to the hate he bore the man. It had to happen this way. Pattern was also crucial to Shallan's facing her truth... The sprens are necessary. Without their encouragement, both Kaladin and Shallan would have never made it, both would have given up. 

 

Adolin would need to pull through similar ordeals without this extra hand to help him up, without a spren ready to give him strength, without the knowledge he is actually achieving something. It is one of the hardest path to take which is why nobody ever managed to do it and nobody is likely to ever pull it of. If Brandon uses this plot line, Adolin is likely to go through living hell back and forth several times before anything concrete happens. The risk of him dying in the process also is very high.

[Jondesu]

This is similar to my own thoughts. I figured that the first step to reviving a Blade would be bonding with it using a gemstone, as modern shardbearers do. 

 

 

I think it is more likely he try to find a way to make it "right", to "fix it" which is pretty much what he has been doing for two books. However, I doubt he'll have "revival and thus become the spren new knight" in mind... More of a RIP kind of approach which would, as a result, revive the spren. 

 

I am quite sure it will be an accident and not one anyone will foresee.

Put together with this mindset, I actually suspect removing the gemstone will be part of it.  The gemstones allow an unnatural bond that sucks the spren back into "life" in the physical realm, I believe, but to truly bond properly with the spren in the blade, I think Adolin will have to destroy or discard that gem, which he might do if his intent is to free the spren from it's slavery and torture (or something along those lines).

 

jW

[maxal]

Put together with this mindset, I actually suspect removing the gemstone will be part of it.  The gemstones allow an unnatural bond that sucks the spren back into "life" in the physical realm, I believe, but to truly bond properly with the spren in the blade, I think Adolin will have to destroy or discard that gem, which he might do if his intent is to free the spren from it's slavery and torture (or something along those lines).

 

jW

 

Yes I agree. It has been my impressions as well and it brilliantly fit with my personal theory of "Adolin will lose his Shards in book 3" 

[stonetwotwo]

Lots of good thoughts. Timezones differences means that I'm sleeping when you're all talking. 

 

This is similar to my own thoughts. I figured that the first step to reviving a Blade would be bonding with it using a gemstone, as modern shardbearers do. After that, saying the Oath's (and really believing them) would be another step in the process. And some other stuff that we don't know about yet. Maybe it's as simple as having the intent to wake up the spren while saying the Oaths.

 

 

Put together with this mindset, I actually suspect removing the gemstone will be part of it.  The gemstones allow an unnatural bond that sucks the spren back into "life" in the physical realm, I believe, but to truly bond properly with the spren in the blade, I think Adolin will have to destroy or discard that gem, which he might do if his intent is to free the spren from it's slavery and torture (or something along those lines).

 

jW

 

My original thoughts followed those of shardbearer. But Jondesu brings up an interesting point. This got me thinking. Perhaps when people first started ‘taming’ shardblades after the Radiants abandoned them the realised men could form a bond with the blade. The bond would then have been tied directly to the person. In order to break that bond the person would have needed to be killed or would have had to discard the blade. High ranking people would probably have wanted to control blades and therefore discovered the way of inserting a gem into the blade and thereby having control over the bond to some degree.

 

Therefore, I agree that the gemstone will first need to be destroyed. Thereby creating a clean slate where a shardbearer could bond directly with the spren and not through a gemstone.

 

Cemci: The first oath is commonly told to people - and I suspect that this one might be in Word of Radiance. But nobody was told any words other than the first oath.

 

That could be true. The orders might not have shared words with people, but they could, alongside a spren, at least guide a new Radiant towards the proper oaths. Adoline won’t have any such additional support.

 

Shardbearer: I imagine it going something like this: Adolin learns that Shardblades are actually dead spren, then he sets out to find a way to revive his Blade.

 

 

I agree with this thought. With all the radiants forming around Adolin I can’t imagine that know will learn/tell him that shardblade are really dead spren. Well unless Sanderson learned a few too many lesson from WoT where no one ever tells anyone anything.

I can see a part of Adolin’s future arc revolving around the almost impossible task/quest of freeing the spren in his blade. This might become even more central to him if he is banished due to the crime of murdering/executing Sadeas.

 

 

I had another thought. If a sharbearer can hear the screams of a Spren then it means they can actually hear a spren talk. The bond might just need to be repaired far enough for the spren’s pain to subside enough to be able to talk. Their memories would also need to return as spren seem to lose these quite easily. I’m not saying this is so, but there might be a way to start tapping into the Spren help hotline after a certain amount of progress has been made, the progress is just a lot further than a normal bond.

[maxal]

My original thoughts followed those of shardbearer. But Jondesu brings up an interesting point. This got me thinking. Perhaps when people first started ‘taming’ shardblades after the Radiants abandoned them the realised men could form a bond with the blade. The bond would then have been tied directly to the person. In order to break that bond the person would have needed to be killed or would have had to discard the blade. High ranking people would probably have wanted to control blades and therefore discovered the way of inserting a gem into the blade and thereby having control over the bond to some degree.

 

Therefore, I agree that the gemstone will first need to be destroyed. Thereby creating a clean slate where a shardbearer could bond directly with the spren and not through a gemstone.

 

Actually, the story states the gem was added by a random individual because he thought it "looked pretty". The bonding process was thus discovered by accident and not on purpose. They also carry a tradition to smash the gem after the bond as release to avoid the former carrier to manage to recall the Blade. As far as we know, nobody ever managed to do that.

 

Those who picked the Blades after the Recreance weren't necessarily high ranking, but they became so due to their new power.

 

I have thought, since the beginning, the gem bond needs to go and since I do believe Adolin will lose his Shards (either he loses them dueling or in battle or Dalinar takes them away)... Then it all fits. 

 

 

That could be true. The orders might not have shared words with people, but they could, alongside a spren, at least guide a new Radiant towards the proper oaths. Adoline won’t have any such additional support.

 

I agree with Cemci the first oath was likely well known... though you have to say it with a purpose. What does it mean? I means you aren't going to give up, you aren't going to break down no matter what is thrown at you, you are choosing to live, to be strong and to walk the hardest path. How you decide to do this makes the difference between the orders.

 

I also think the journey towards Radianhood is a personal one and proto-Radiant were likely not helped by older ones. If you are told the oath, it defies the purpose of you finding it. There had to be a code where the young ones were send on a journey to find out their oaths and come back as Radiants or something along those lines, but I doubt they are being told the oaths. They all had spren guidance though, which was crucial to everyone finding their oaths. Without Syl or Pattern, neither Shallan nor Kaladin would have progressed at all. Adolin would need to do that, on his own.

 

Adolin would likely know the first oath, but not the other ones. Which raises an interesting question, what could prompt him to say the first oath? Since I don't believe he'll purposefully try to revive the Blade, why would he start to say a Radiant oath? What sort of ordeal will he put himself into to justify him saying those words with a purpose?

 

 

I agree with this thought. With all the radiants forming around Adolin I can’t imagine that know will learn/tell him that shardblade are really dead spren. Well unless Sanderson learned a few too many lesson from WoT where no one ever tells anyone anything.

I can see a part of Adolin’s future arc revolving around the almost impossible task/quest of freeing the spren in his blade. This might become even more central to him if he is banished due to the crime of murdering/executing Sadeas.

 

 

I had another thought. If a sharbearer can hear the screams of a Spren then it means they can actually hear a spren talk. The bond might just need to be repaired far enough for the spren’s pain to subside enough to be able to talk. Their memories would also need to return as spren seem to lose these quite easily. I’m not saying this is so, but there might be a way to start tapping into the Spren help hotline after a certain amount of progress has been made, the progress is just a lot further than a normal bond.

 

I am quite sure they are going to tell him early on in book 3, if not just to make him get rid of his nervous tic. There are several ways I can see Adolin coping with this knowledge. One way if he stubbornly refuses to use his Blade for fear of hurting her, another way is his fear he may be hurting it starts to impede his ability to control/summon it, another way he him desperately trying to find a way to make it rest in peace, but I don't see him trying to revive it on purpose with the intend of becoming a knight himself. If anything, after murdering Sadeas, Adolin will grow convinced he does not deserve to be a Radiant, he is not worthy enough. So I doubt his journey will be an intentional one, more one sprouting out of desperate actions to try to prove himself again, to try to regain his father's confidence, to still try to protect the Radiants even though it should be the other way around or to simply start to consider himself expendable as he isn't a Radiant. 

 

If he is banished though, you can expect him to be banish without his Shards.... so banishment story does not quite fit with Blade revival unless it is a very short banishment. I am personally not found of this option.

 

Brandon said the spren lost their memories and their conscience and they need that replace in order to be revived, so it has to happen, somehow. I have no idea how: it may be the "something more" Brandon was referring to. We also don't know how many oaths Adolin would need to say... perhaps 2 or 3 is enough or perhaps he needs to say them all... in any advent, I think it is very dangerous to become a knight this way. Adolin would suddenly get access to the full power of an Edgedancer without having any training whatsoever. It may be difficult for him afterwards to just control the stormlight and the surges as they seem to get more powerful as the knight progress. 

 

All in all, I doubt it is the preferred way to become a knight...

[Shardbearer]

I personally don't like the idea of a banishment for Adolin. I think times are too desperate for them to waste a full shardbearer like that. Maybe he'll be "banished" but really sent on a secret mission to go save people in Kholinar or something.

 

Reviving the blade either with or without the gem are both plausible. My thoughts are that the gem allows him to already have a sort of bond with the spren, so he just needs to strengthen that bond in order to draw the spren out. I'm not sure how you can bond a spren that is locked in a Blade and can't communicate, other than screaming in pain, without the gem.

[stonetwotwo]

Maxal: Actually, the story states the gem was added by a random individual because he thought it "looked pretty". The bonding process was thus discovered by accident and not on purpose. They also carry a tradition to smash the gem after the bond as release to avoid the former carrier to manage to recall the Blade. As far as we know, nobody ever managed to do that.

 

 

Ah, I forgot about the gem being added by accident, but is that the whole story? I'll have to go read that section again.

 

Thanks for the good comments, Maxal. I'll need to do some more reading.

[maxal]

I personally don't like the idea of a banishment for Adolin. I think times are too desperate for them to waste a full shardbearer like that. Maybe he'll be "banished" but really sent on a secret mission to go save people in Kholinar or something.

 

Reviving the blade either with or without the gem are both plausible. My thoughts are that the gem allows him to already have a sort of bond with the spren, so he just needs to strengthen that bond in order to draw the spren out. I'm not sure how you can bond a spren that is locked in a Blade and can't communicate, other than screaming in pain, without the gem.

 

I don't like the banishment story either mostly because Adolin wandering, alone and forgotten, commenting on the flora across Roshar does not strike me as interesting. I'm also worried banishing Adolin would be a means used by the author to simply get rid of the character, which I would hate. It also makes his come-back less possible as unless he get a pardon, he will never be allowed to be near his loved ones ever again. 

 

This being said, it is not impossible the use the banishment story arc in a satisfying way: I just currently see too many ways it could go wrong to support it.

 

In any advent, I am convinced the Kohlin will lose Adolin as a Shardbearer, one way or another. 

 

My thoughts are the gem bond is artificial... it has to go anyway for a Nahel bond: bonded sprens don't have a gem.

 

I also do not think Adolin will communicate with the Blade until it is revived. I have always imagined a rather striking process... There will be steps and through each one we, the readers, will be left wondering if it is going to be the right one, much as we wondered before each duel if it was going to be the one who'll turn bad. I also think Adolin will look completely unstable and perhaps half-crazy during those steps and his family is likely to urge him to let go of that Blade. I see him alternating between moments of pure awesomeness where we are going to see the beautiful duelist he is and moments of complete helplessness where he won't be able to use his Blade appropriately. Perhaps a bit like Nynaeve who, before she broke her block, alternated between two extremes: superb and useless. I more or less envision something similar with Adolin as he goes through the "journey". Ultimately, it will accumulate in a climax where the full revival will occur.

 

Then, he'll hear it and it will likely scream at first. Perhaps as he bond it he ends up feeling her pain as well, I dunno, but I have always seen it as sudden, striking, like thunder cracking down from the sky. 

 

 

Ah, I forgot about the gem being added by accident, but is that the whole story? I'll have to go read that section again.

 

Thanks for the good comments, Maxal. I'll need to do some more reading.

 

We don't know... Navani thinks this is how it happened, but she may be wrong.

Edited November 15, 2015 by maxal

[Jondesu]

Expanding on my mental image of the process… I think Adolin will have his Shardplate taken away by some means (whether a duel, punishment, him giving it up due to guilt, etc), but will keep the blade (it's mentioned that it's incredibly rare for someone to have their Shardblade taken, largely because many would never give it up willingly I would suppose, but I doubt anyone would try to just take Adolin's no matter what he's done), and having learned from Shallan and Kaladin et al, he'll break the gem intending to free the spren, but find the blade simply becomes unbonded but not freeing the spren in any way.  He'll then search for a way to free the spren, possibly seeking out the Nightmother, though I doubt she could achieve it fully, and when he finally accomplishes it, what we'll see is the blade "melting" or "vining" not out of existence like it does when dismissed, but into it's spren form, who will then speak with Adolin for the first time.  I'm getting chills picturing that scene already, even if it may not happen like that.

 

jW

[maxal]

Expanding on my mental image of the process… I think Adolin will have his Shardplate taken away by some means (whether a duel, punishment, him giving it up due to guilt, etc), but will keep the blade (it's mentioned that it's incredibly rare for someone to have their Shardblade taken, largely because many would never give it up willingly I would suppose, but I doubt anyone would try to just take Adolin's no matter what he's done), and having learned from Shallan and Kaladin et al, he'll break the gem intending to free the spren, but find the blade simply becomes unbonded but not freeing the spren in any way.  He'll then search for a way to free the spren, possibly seeking out the Nightmother, though I doubt she could achieve it fully, and when he finally accomplishes it, what we'll see is the blade "melting" or "vining" not out of existence like it does when dismissed, but into it's spren form, who will then speak with Adolin for the first time.  I'm getting chills picturing that scene already, even if it may not happen like that.

 

jW

 

I am more dramatic than you...   I am envisioning something more epic than the Blade just vining out of existence.

 

I personally think Adolin will be asked to forfeit his Blade, if he does not lose it dueling. It may not be usual, but if Dalinar asks it of him, he'll comply, even if it is hard. After that, he'll have to gain his Blade back, claim her, want her, choose her. How? I am found of him having to battle some foe, perhaps the bearer of his Blade and managing to re-kink the bond he previously had with it. A neat ploy if he is seen struggling controlling it before he was forced to unbond it. We have inklings it may happen due to the tradition of breaking the gem to ensure the bond is truly broken, well what if the bond is something deeper than a gem? What if Adolin manages to summon his Blade out of this hands of his opponent? 

 

Just one of the thousand ideas I have on how it could happen. We are seriously in the realm of pure speculation. We don't even know if Brandon will want to use this story arc, without Adolin getting flashbacks, it seems improbable we are going to see him revive his Blade. "Remembering the forgotten" is too strongly tied to his mother: it will loose all its purpose if we can't see the flashbacks of how they used to be and, more importantly, how Adolin reacted to her death, from his POV, not Dalinar's or Renarin's, but his.

[WitSpren]

Very interesting theory.    Not sure what I think of it yet or how/if it would connect my own thoughts on Spren Revival.

 

 

 

The normal method of Blade acquisition, no thought is given to the spirit (spren) of the blade.

 

A Blade is either won or given to a person and after about a week of possession a limited bond is Forced onto the willing or unwilling BladeSpren. 

 

That being said - the only way that the Spren could be Revived is if:

 

1.   The person that bonded the blade, Says or or has already said the first oath.(and actually Meant it).

 

2.   Most likely the person would need to proceed with additional oaths that are aligned with the Spren of the blade that he happens to be bonded with.     If it is a Windrunner blade, he would need to swear oaths associated with an Honor Spren.   If  it is a Lightweaver blade the person would need to acknowledge sufficient Truths to awaken the Blade.

 

3.   I am not sure if it would take 2,3 or possibly; the same level of oaths as the original owner. 

 

4.   I also think that talking to the blade, as Adolin does in WoR, might facilitate the revival.    Such as discussing "honor issues" that the person might have in trying to live up to their particular oaths.

 

That said, I think these are what make it so hard to "awaken" a Blade.     The person and the Blade are thrown together completely randomly.    If a person bonded a Lightweaver Blade but their temperament was that of a Windrunner, then they could never complete enough "oaths" for the blade that he had to revive it.     Especially since most people of this world do not even live by the very First Oath.

 

 

Now that they have several actual KRs and their associated Spren, they "might" have an advantage that could aid in the Spren Revival.

 

1.   They now have several Spren that might be able to look and determine what Spren is associated with each Blade.

 

2.   Failing that, they now have a Lightweaver and a Elsecaller that can partially interface with Shadesmar and determine the type of Spren associated with a Blade.

 

3.   Once that is determined, the current KRs could look for people that "potentially" have the personality that would be compatible with that Blade's Spren AND at Least be fully understanding of and have said that First Oath, before they bond a particular Blade.

 

4.   If a person selected in 3 above, proves to be unable to advance the bond or revive the Blade, then they could be required to relinquish said Blade to another prospective person.

 

 

Just my thoughts on the subject, not sure how they would interface with your theory.

[stonetwotwo]

Thanks for the input, WitSpren. You remained on topic without wondering too far into the realms of Adolin’s plot.

 

I’ve was thinking that merely saying the ten oaths is too easy for a spren to be fully revived. This might not necessarily be the case. Like WitSpren mentioned most people don’t even live by the first oath let alone reaching a point of saying enough oaths to actually bring a spen to consciousness. Couple this with the fact that spren and person could be horribly mismatched it would make for a very difficult task.

 

Then again I have this nagging feeling that there has to be more to the process than merely reciting some oaths. We’ve seen some odd things about spren, like being fixed when measured. Have the spren been ‘measured’ before being abandoned? Cast as swords forever. Can they be unmeasured? How do you close the box and put the cat back in a state of being that’s both dead and alive… if you catch my meaning. Can someone think of an odd trait that might lead to or aid in a revival?

 

Off topic: It made me wonder. How many Knights Radiant ever managed to say all ten oaths? Is there a discussion about this? It would make for a very interesting hierarchy and power struggle within each order, especially within the non-honour bound orders.

Edited November 19, 2015 by stonetwotwo

[Rakei]

I think a major hurdle would come just from the fact they're locked in place as a blade of specific design.

A design that's been recorded and drawn and measured in numerous book, as Shallan is updating the current one with better pictures.

As I understand it spren are like quantum particles and it seems as soon as they're measured they lock in place, becoming whatever was measured.

 

So I'd guess primarily the physical knowledge about the blades would have to be destroyed or forgotten.

Alternatively an unknown shardblade might have a better chance of revival.

 

and then there is the question of can they be revived in the physical realm? or would the reviver need to travel to shadesmar before attempting to revive the spren?

I think the latter would be a part of it, the very summoning of the blade into the physical world = measurement.

[mirahound]

Interesting, I'd never considered the consequences of recording/drawing the Shardblades. The implications there are actually mildly terrifying, especially considering Shallan has started to draw the Shardblades herself.

[maxal]

Alternatively an unknown shardblade might have a better chance of revival.

 

Brandon said Shardblades often became famous and their name was passed down from one owner to another. It has been confirmed Oathbringer is the name of a book, which is making me believe Dalinar's did not name his Blade, but inherited (or won) one with a famous history. 

 

Therefore, many of these Blades have been personalized by generations and generations of wielders. They weren't just drawn, they were referred to by a new chosen name. Oathbringer, we can slightly guess what it has been used for. Can it still remember who it was?