Random Stuff IV

[Delightful]

So I had a dream I was training to be a secret agent and Nick Fury was involved and my codename was Delight.

[Edgedancer he/him]

Hm, do I follow Kaymyth's example and simply steal Steris or do I ask who my LotR fit could be... eh let's do both.

Mistborn trilogy spoilers.

I honestly think Straff is the only character who is really "evil" that we see at least. LR thinks he is doing what needs to be done and Ruin is a force of nature. You dont blame earthquakes for destroying stuff, same with Ruin. Straff, Straff is just a jerk. Straff also means punishment in swedish... random trivia...

Honestly I'd still put the LR as squarely a bad guy. Sure he didn’t want the world to be destroyed but that's a pretty logical conclusion for people that want to live themselves and he clearly put more effort into keeping himself in power than into making sure Ruin doesn't go free.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Curious Anamaximder he/him]

So I had a dream I was training to be a secret agent and Nick Fury was involved and my codename was Delight.

I would be Fitz. Kobold might be Coulson.

[Kasimir he/him]

Argh, so exhausted...

 

I have an interview tomorrow for a programme I really want to join, and I'm so nervous because I don't think I know anything--or enough things--to get through this... :/

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Yomen was frustrating, but his reasoning made sense to me. Naive, definitely, but I understood how he could be the way he was. Straff was unbearable, between his terribleness and Zane's, WoA was much more infuritating for me.

It's not his naivety that's rubbing me the wrong way; it's his commitment to his view that he is right and everyone who is wrong deserves the strictest punishment. It's the lip service he pays to real justice ("It's the law that I have to let you speak. Imma execute you anyway.") and the way he refuses to see any side but his own. Straff was a selfish, evil man; Yomen is the worst kind of religious fanatic. Everything he has read, studied, and learned has been to reinforce his flawed worldview--so realistically, you could say he is a highly educated man who has learned nothing at all.

[Kobold King he/him]

Ah! An oldest child appears! 

 

I'm the oldest of my litter too.

 

 

I mean, he feels like less of an idiot later, but... He doesn't really change or anything. You just get to see more of his viewpoint.

Assuming you're where I think you are.

Side note (that turned out to be longer than the actual point): I finally found my copy of the Silmarillion, and I'm very happy. The above stuff was mostly from memory.
So, Kobold: Haleth is this girl, part of a tribe that's attacked by Orcs. Her dad, Haldad, brings everyone together and tries to hold out against the Orcs, but he is slain (along with her brother). At that point, Haleth holds the people (who have just lost their leader and their hope) together for seven full days against the Orcs before help arrives from the Elves. Then the Elves that come say "Humans actually aren't that bad. Wanna swear fealty to us?" Haleth's like, "Nope, sorry. Why would I swear an oath of servitude to anyone else? Head out, team! We're moving west!" (not actual wording) And so they make her their chieftain, and move west to Thingol's lands. (Thingol's interesting. Maybe I'll rant about him sometime.) And Thingol almost says "Get off my land!" but someone else, hearing of the hardships they had to go through to get there, says "Let them stay, pleease?" And Thingol says, "Fine. But you have to guard the bridge within the land you have claimed from Orcs." Haleth replies, "My father and brother were killed by Orcs. If you think we won't kill any Orcs in our land, you're an Elvish idiot." And she remains chieftain for the rest of her days, and her people come to be known as the people of Haleth.
The Silmarillion is full of such epic stories, seriously.

 

 

Could Haleth be any more awesome?

 

 

Mistborn trilogy spoilers.

 

I honestly think Straff is the only character who is really "evil" that we see at least. LR thinks he is doing what needs to be done and Ruin is a force of nature. You dont blame earthquakes for destroying stuff, same with Ruin. Straff, Straff is just a jerk. Straff also means punishment in swedish... random trivia...

 

 

Major passionate spoilers.

 

It's become pretty popular for people 'round these parts to absolve the Lord Ruler of all his sins because of what we learn in that last book, but I don't buy it. I don't judge evil on its intentions--I judge it on the actions that it shows.

 

So let's take a look at why the Lord Ruler was a force of evil. Let's look at the society he created and maintained for a thousand years, with absolutely no attempt at reform or change:

 

The Lord Ruler deliberately made one group of people mentally retarded compared to the rest of society, and forced them to serve a wealthy minority for a thousand years.

 

Upon learning that the women of this caste were being regularly raped and used as sex slaves by his nobility, the Lord Ruler's response wasn't to seek better conditions for the skaa but to order rape victims to be killed on the off-chance that they get pregnant with someone capable of deposing him.

 

If any of the peasants objected to this, the Lord Ruler sent his armies to brutally murder every man, woman, and child among them. Those armies are largely made up of former rebels who have been mutilated and mind-raped into becoming twisted koloss abominations.

 

When the Lord Ruler does take prisoners, he forces crowds to watch as his minions chop off their heads in gruesome public executions.

 

Oh yeah, and a few political dissenters are sent to a forced labor camp.

 

 

If the Lord Ruler was a good person, he would have tried something, anything, to stop the incessant acts of rape, murder, torture, and oppression going on in his empire. But all he has ever done is make things worse, not out of failed attempts to help, but out of cold, cruel disregard for human life and suffering.

 

The Final Empire is worse than the Nazi regime and ISIS-held territories combined. Hitler thought he was saving the world--do we say that he was not an evil man because his heart was in the right place, or because of what his actions wrought? What about the heads of ISIS? Do we shrug off their rapes and murders and atrocities just because they're probably doing what they think is right? No, of course not.

 

In the end the Lord Ruler's plan revolves keeping a metal supply line covered up and hidden so an ancient evil doesn't destroy the world. Okay, cool. Thumbs up for the Lord Ruler for thinking of it. But the murders, rapes, tortures, and oppression are completely superfluous to that goal. Imagine for a minute that the government employees at Fort Knox started a terrorist organization and a child sex slave ring with the tangential goal of accumulating all of the world's gold in their vault. Even if their gold project would save the world, would you absolve them of all the ugly brutality of their other actions solely because they embarked on one worthwhile mission?

 

 

The Lord Ruler was evil. No matter what he thought he was, no matter what good tangentially came from his actions, there is nothing that can justify the millennium of abuse he inflicted upon his own people. If we had even a hint that he was trying to reform his empire, trying to make it better, than I could agree that he was a good man at heart. But we have no such thing.

 

Sometimes there is such thing as absolute evil.

[The Honor Spren she/her]

Major passionate spoilers.

It's become pretty popular for people 'round these parts to absolve the Lord Ruler of all his sins because of what we learn in that last book, but I don't buy it. I don't judge evil on its intentions--I judge it on the actions that it shows.

So let's take a look at why the Lord Ruler was a force of evil. Let's look at the society he created and maintained for a thousand years, with absolutely no attempt at reform or change:

The Lord Ruler deliberately made one group of people mentally retarded compared to the rest of society, and forced them to serve a wealthy minority for a thousand years.

Upon learning that the women of this caste were being regularly raped and used as sex slaves by his nobility, the Lord Ruler's response wasn't to seek better conditions for the skaa but to order rape victims to be killed on the off-chance that they get pregnant with someone capable of deposing him.

If any of the peasants objected to this, the Lord Ruler sent his armies to brutally murder every man, woman, and child among them. Those armies are largely made up of former rebels who have been mutilated and mind-raped into becoming twisted koloss abominations.

When the Lord Ruler does take prisoners, he forces crowds to watch as his minions chop off their heads in gruesome public executions.

Oh yeah, and a few political dissenters are sent to a forced labor camp.

If the Lord Ruler was a good person, he would have tried something, anything, to stop the incessant acts of rape, murder, torture, and oppression going on in his empire. But all he has ever done is make things worse, not out of failed attempts to help, but out of cold, cruel disregard for human life and suffering.

The Final Empire is worse than the Nazi regime and ISIS-held territories combined. Hitler thought he was saving the world--do we say that he was not an evil man because his heart was in the right place, or because of what his actions wrought? What about the heads of ISIS? Do we shrug off their rapes and murders and atrocities just because they're probably doing what they think is right? No, of course not.

In the end the Lord Ruler's plan revolves keeping a metal supply line covered up and hidden so an ancient evil doesn't destroy the world. Okay, cool. Thumbs up for the Lord Ruler for thinking of it. But the murders, rapes, tortures, and oppression are completely superfluous to that goal. Imagine for a minute that the government employees at Fort Knox started a terrorist organization and a child sex slave ring with the tangential goal of accumulating all of the world's gold in their vault. Even if their gold project would save the world, would you absolve them of all the ugly brutality of their other actions solely because they embarked on one worthwhile mission?

The Lord Ruler was evil. No matter what he thought he was, no matter what good tangentially came from his actions, there is nothing that can justify the millennium of abuse he inflicted upon his own people. If we had even a hint that he was trying to reform his empire, trying to make it better, than I could agree that he was a good man at heart. But we have no such thing.

Sometimes there is such thing as absolute evil.

Everyone's a hero in their own story

Edit: this is not an argument against you. This is just what your post made me think of. Edited November 18, 2015 by The Honor Spren

[Kobold King he/him]

 

Major passionate spoilers.

 

It's become pretty popular for people 'round these parts to absolve the Lord Ruler of all his sins because of what we learn in that last book, but I don't buy it. I don't judge evil on its intentions--I judge it on the actions that it shows.

 

So let's take a look at why the Lord Ruler was a force of evil. Let's look at the society he created and maintained for a thousand years, with absolutely no attempt at reform or change:

 

The Lord Ruler deliberately made one group of people mentally retarded compared to the rest of society, and forced them to serve a wealthy minority for a thousand years.

 

Upon learning that the women of this caste were being regularly raped and used as sex slaves by his nobility, the Lord Ruler's response wasn't to seek better conditions for the skaa but to order rape victims to be killed on the off-chance that they get pregnant with someone capable of deposing him.

 

If any of the peasants objected to this, the Lord Ruler sent his armies to brutally murder every man, woman, and child among them. Those armies are largely made up of former rebels who have been mutilated and mind-raped into becoming twisted koloss abominations.

 

When the Lord Ruler does take prisoners, he forces crowds to watch as his minions chop off their heads in gruesome public executions.

 

Oh yeah, and a few political dissenters are sent to a forced labor camp.

 

 

If the Lord Ruler was a good person, he would have tried something, anything, to stop the incessant acts of rape, murder, torture, and oppression going on in his empire. But all he has ever done is make things worse, not out of failed attempts to help, but out of cold, cruel disregard for human life and suffering.

 

The Final Empire is worse than the Nazi regime and ISIS-held territories combined. Hitler thought he was saving the world--do we say that he was not an evil man because his heart was in the right place, or because of what his actions wrought? What about the heads of ISIS? Do we shrug off their rapes and murders and atrocities just because they're probably doing what they think is right? No, of course not.

 

In the end the Lord Ruler's plan revolves keeping a metal supply line covered up and hidden so an ancient evil doesn't destroy the world. Okay, cool. Thumbs up for the Lord Ruler for thinking of it. But the murders, rapes, tortures, and oppression are completely superfluous to that goal. Imagine for a minute that the government employees at Fort Knox started a terrorist organization and a child sex slave ring with the tangential goal of accumulating all of the world's gold in their vault. Even if their gold project would save the world, would you absolve them of all the ugly brutality of their other actions solely because they embarked on one worthwhile mission?

 

 

The Lord Ruler was evil. No matter what he thought he was, no matter what good tangentially came from his actions, there is nothing that can justify the millennium of abuse he inflicted upon his own people. If we had even a hint that he was trying to reform his empire, trying to make it better, than I could agree that he was a good man at heart. But we have no such thing.

 

Sometimes there is such thing as absolute evil.

Everyone's a hero in their own story

 

 

 

Yeah, but some people's stories are told by unreliable narrators.

 

 

EDIT: I figured as much, Honor Spren. I wasn't arguing against you either.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Kobold King

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Unrelated spoilers for HoA:

If Ruin and Preservation were preschoolers playing with Legos, Preservation would be the one who builds something and then says "Nobody touch it!" Ruin would be the one asking "Can I knock it down now? Now? How about now?" Vin and Elend would be watching quietly, trying to figure the best way to get Ruin to step on a Lego.

[azninvasion99 he/him]

It's not his naivety that's rubbing me the wrong way; it's his commitment to his view that he is right and everyone who is wrong deserves the strictest punishment. It's the lip service he pays to real justice ("It's the law that I have to let you speak. Imma execute you anyway.") and the way he refuses to see any side but his own. Straff was a selfish, evil man; Yomen is the worst kind of religious fanatic. Everything he has read, studied, and learned has been to reinforce his flawed worldview--so realistically, you could say he is a highly educated man who has learned nothing at all.

I knew he was a fanatic but I always read his character as someone who simply refused to accept that the world was changing around him. Someone so devout to his faith that he refused to think of his god as anything other than immortal. And so he had to continue trying to enforce the doctrines and law that he had followed his entire life. But your perspective on it makes a lot of sense, I had just never thought of it that way. Thinking back in his discussions with Elend, Yomen was very quick to dismiss anything that was considered "heretical" without considering the possibilities.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

I knew he was a fanatic but I always read his character as someone who simply refused to accept that the world was changing around him. Someone so devout to his faith that he refused to think of his god as anything other than immortal. And so he had to continue trying to enforce the doctrines and law that he had followed his entire life. But your perspective on it makes a lot of sense, I had just never thought of it that way. Thinking back in his discussions with Elend, Yomen was very quick to dismiss anything that was considered "heretical" without considering the possibilities.

I read his faith as less about what WAS right and more about BEING right. I got the sense that he believed in TLR less because he truly believed in his divinity and more because he didn't want to admit to being wrong. Your interpretation makes sense too; my vehement dislike of him just makes it easier for me to lean toward a negative interpretation.

[Kobold King he/him]

I read his faith as less about what WAS right and more about BEING right. I got the sense that he believed in TLR less because he truly believed in his divinity and more because he didn't want to admit to being wrong. Your interpretation makes sense too; my vehement dislike of him just makes it easier for me to lean toward a negative interpretation.

 

 

Precisely! I've been alone in disliking Yomen for a long while now. You finally put my dislike into words.

 

Having a strong faith is okay. Blindly following a crazed despot and continuing his twisted legal system even after his death is not.

[Guest]

I am the middle child of three. Of course, both of my siblings get more love than me.

My favorite childhood game involves me and my brother standing on opposite sides of the backyard. We then proceed to throw anything and everything we can find at the other (baseballs, dog toys, sticks, rocks, houses), hoping to score a hit. It's called DodgeBrick, and it is incredibly fun. Game ends when you successfully make your little brother storm inside.

[WayneSpren he/him]

I am the middle child of three. Of course, both of my siblings get more love than me.

My favorite childhood game involves me and my brother standing on opposite sides of the backyard. We then proceed to throw anything and everything we can find at the other (baseballs, dog toys, sticks, rocks, houses), hoping to score a hit. It's called DodgeBrick, and it is incredibly fun. Game ends when you successfully make your little brother storm inside.

You guys must be really strong if you can throw that kind of merchandise.

[Kobold King he/him]

You guys must be really strong if you can throw that kind of merchandise.

 

 

Plot twist: Kipper and his brother are Zeus and Poseidon.

[WayneSpren he/him]

 

Plot twist: Kipper and his brother are Zeus and Poseidon.

Is the third brother Hades?

[Kobold King he/him]

Is the third brother Hades?

 

 

I bet young Hades would be the kind of kid who shows girls that he likes them by kicking sand in their faces and laughing at them. Kipper, did your little brother do that?

[Orlion Blight he/him]

I am the middle child of three. Of course, both of my siblings get more love than me

I understand that. Further, as a middle child, I was forbidden to do a lot of things because my older brother screwed up so much. And then because I was a good kid, my younger sister was allowed more freedom than either me or my brother.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

I understand that. Further, as a middle child, I was forbidden to do a lot of things because my older brother screwed up so much. And then because I was a good kid, my younger sister was allowed more freedom than either me or my brother.

 

I'm the oldest. My parents were super strict with me, slightly less strict with my brother, and pretty lenient with our sister. A good example: Until I was about eighteen, there was a rule against secular music (music not from a Christian label) in the house. I wasn't really even introduced to secular music until I was a freshman in high school and some of my teachers (bless them) began playing the radio during study hour. That was shortly before YouTube was invented, so I'd listen to my favorite songs while my parents were out of the house. When I was caught with the lyrics to a Simple Plan song (which I had hidden behind my dresser, meaning my mom had gone through my room and dug out the lyrics sheet) I got multiple lectures from both parents about how I was poisoning my mind, I was risking poisoning the mind of my sister, how they didn't support those bands with their minds, and on and on. 

 

My brother got slightly less scrutiny when it came to secular bands. He didn't get lectures until he was caught in the basement with his friends, playing a borrowed All American Rejects CD. Even then, he could reason with the parents….somewhat. They forbade him from bringing that music into the house, but he still listened to Fall Out Boy and his other favorites at his friends' houses. 

 

By the time our sister was old enough to branch out musically, we had all gotten iPods for Christmas and my parents just didn't care anymore. They'd play their favorite 80s songs on YouTube and talk about how their music was superior to the music of our generation. Guess they didn't pay much attention to the lyrics for "Rebel Yell."  

[Zathoth]

Kobold I'll get to you... later... when I feel like arguing moral nihilism... and stuff... Lets just say I sort of agree...

 

 

Anyway I got The Black Prism!

[Kobold King he/him]

Kobold I'll get to you... later... when I feel like arguing moral nihilism... and stuff... Lets just say I sort of agree...

 

 

Fair warning: I believe in moral absolutes and am fiercely opposed to moral nihilism and relativism. I also don't believe in "necessary evils." That said...

 

[Zathoth]

... that made me curious? How do you define good and evil then?

 

To me it boils down to "I think this is wrong and so should you." Thats all the idea of morality is to me, opinions.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

HoA: 

 

Yomen is explaining his religious views to Vin a bit more. Making them understandable, even relatable. 

 

I still hate him. 

 

I can understand where he's coming from. I can even sympathize with his unwillingness to give up his faith. But his faith is spurring him to both atrocities and everyday jackchullery. It isn't making him a better person; it's making him a worse person—a prideful, demeaning man who listens to opposing viewpoints only so he can more effectively tear down those who hold them. This is not a man who holds to his faith because he believes it is the right thing to do. This is a man who holds to his faith because he cannot for the briefest second accept that he is wrong. He is not a man of faith because he believes in something greater than himself; he is a man of faith because it gives him an excuse to see himself as greater than others. 

 

There are some characters who share their flawed worldviews and increase my respect for them. The more Yomen shares his views, the less respect I have for him.

[Kobold King he/him]

... that made me curious? How do you define good and evil then?

 

To me it boils down to "I think this is wrong and so should you." Thats all the idea of morality is to me, opinions.

 

Good is helping others.

 

Evil is hurting others.

 

Doing neither is just decent.

 

 

To me, not hurting others is the One Moral Commandment the universe delivers to us. It is not okay to hurt others. If you think it's okay, you're wrong. It doesn't matter what anyone's opinion is. Hurting others is wrong.

 

The only gray area is hurting someone who is trying to hurt others, thus acting in defense. That is the one time I can accept it as the right thing to do.

 

Every culture on this planet includes some variation of the Golden Rule. The Golden Rule is the foundation of all other forms of morality, even when superfluous stuff is glued onto it. To violate the Golden Rule, to harm another innocent human being, is the very essence of evil.

 

I hate moral nihilism because it claims that even the Golden Rule is meaningless, and thus implies that technically it's a-okay to slaughter children, rape anyone you like, and steal whatever catches your eye, and the only reason you shouldn't is because society tells you not to. I refuse to subscribe to that brand of morality, or lack thereof.

[Edgedancer he/him]

It's not his naivety that's rubbing me the wrong way; it's his commitment to his view that he is right and everyone who is wrong deserves the strictest punishment. It's the lip service he pays to real justice ("It's the law that I have to let you speak. Imma execute you anyway.") and the way he refuses to see any side but his own. Straff was a selfish, evil man; Yomen is the worst kind of religious fanatic. Everything he has read, studied, and learned has been to reinforce his flawed worldview--so realistically, you could say he is a highly educated man who has learned nothing at all.

Makes me think of the Nighthound vs Lucentia situation just not quite as extreme. One is much more evil but real life can be projected on the other one.

 

Anyway I got The Black Prism!

Congratulation! You made a good book choice.